[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151455#msg151455 date=1328311995] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151455#msg151455 date=1328311995] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151456#msg151456 date=1328312104] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151455#msg151455 date=1328311995] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
link?
OK Mina ,
Do this:
--> Launch iTunes --> Go to Musique Category --> Type Coptic in the Search box ---> Find Saint Mark's Coptic Orthodox Church Choir - Washington DC (The Agpeya).
That is seriously the best psalm reading i've heard in my life.
Anyway, I wouldn't copy it, its too hard, you'd need a great voice to do it, and a LOT of confidence to even pray ONE Psalm that way. Who would let u pray like that during the liturgy?! There would be no time.
Oh...you are talking about those english recordings. I have to say that they are a great recording but i personally am not a fan of reading agpeya that way--too much hazzat and and going high on words. this is my opinion on many of the arabic recordings of the agpeya to. The best recording of agpeya in arabic are the ones recorded by Shababa El-anba Roweis....by far the best.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151484#msg151484 date=1328450674] Oh...you are talking about those english recordings. I have to say that they are a great recording but i personally am not a fan of reading agpeya that way--too much hazzat and and going high on words. this is my opinion on many of the arabic recordings of the agpeya to. The best recording of agpeya in arabic are the ones recorded by Shababa El-anba Roweis....by far the best.
I started to appreciate the Agpeya at a late age, unfortunately. Its one of the major reasons why I love the COC - I think this form of prayer is probably the most beneficial ever.
Let's face it, NO ONE is ever going to pray using this tune in the liturgy.. are they?
No, I haven't heard the Shababa recording.
I didn't notice that much hazzats in this one, btw.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151489#msg151489 date=1328472893] Let's face it, NO ONE is ever going to pray using this tune in the liturgy.. are they? well....that really doesn't matter because within the liturgy, the psalms are not said audibly. Also agpeya tends to be 'faster' during that time. But in youth meeting, before tasbeha and even general prayers, the tune doesn't matter as much. the agpeya is to be prayed first...then if the person is talented enough they can chant the psalms because this may (which does most of the time), brings the person closer to being in front of God.
I didn't notice that much hazzats in this one, btw.
Well there is a lot jumps in the english but than he stops and specific words to add some hazzat keda....
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800] It seems to me that this is also reasonably applied in the use of hymns and the length of the service. I would expect a liturgy to last at least 2 hours. This is how long my own lasts. People often have other God-given responsibilities, and have travelled some distance to be together at the Liturgy. Those who turn up late because they don't care are the responsibility of the priest in any case. In my own context I am always considering how the spirituality of the congregation can be increased through participation in the liturgy, and I will discuss with my bishop and other clergy, and the deacons and laity, what increase in content I would like, so that we are all aware what I am asking and why I am asking for it. What if, Fr Peter, more and more parishioners in your congregation are frustrated that the liturgy is 2 hours? More than likely they will not tell you this but more and more parishioners will turn up late and some will leave. Following discussions with your bishop, clergy and deacons, and requesting an increase in participation, what would you do if the congregation continues to request 1 hour liturgies?
If the Liturgy lasts 2 hours and is extended by 5 minutes then there could be no complaint.
Logically I agree with you. But I have been criticized for adding one 5 minute hymn on many occasions.
If people are pushing for a 1 hour Liturgy then that is a spiritual and pastoral problem, not a hymnology problem.
This is what I wanted to confirm.
Insisting that the Liturgy will be 4 hours long will not solve the problem but make it worse.
No arguing here.
The problem as a Westerner I would have with a 15 minute hymn containing only the word Alleluia is that it is no longer a hymn. It is sound but it is not a hymn.
This illustrates my original post. Music is a language in itself. It is not "a sounding brass or clanging cymbal" (1 Cor 13:1) if you educate yourself about music. Those who do not or cannot pray a one-word, 15 minute hymn and receive a spiritual experience cannot understand or believe that such a thing is possible. Such a belief (or lack of belief) is not hymnology problem. Those who can pray these one-word, 15 minute hymns and experience a spiritual enlightenment see this as one of the highest form of worship. It seems to me that those who cannot conceive of such a form of worship are a product of a culture that sees this worship as foreign. Those who can worship this way see nothing foreign about it.
Does this Western musical sense affect the youth? I would imagine that it does. But styles of music, within a range, can all be Orthodox and Liturgical. A youth who lives in the US is surely becoming an American who is an Orthodox according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Is it unreasonable that some musical elements which are based in the culture of the Middle East will become less attractive? I would guess so?
No it is not unreasonable that some musical elements based on Ancient Egyptian culture are less attractive to the youth? But neither are other spiritual exercises. Many youth are not attracted to fasting. This is not just my opinion. Our priest tells us about many youth who complain and tell him their personal stories of how hard and unattractive fasting is for them. If appeasing the youth was the main qualification of keeping or removing a cultural action or exercise, then many things should have already been eliminated (such as the length of the liturgy). There must be a balance between keeping a cultural identity marker, like musical tradition, and finding new ways to attract the youth. I don't think attracting the youth should be achieved at the expense of cultural identity markers. Wouldn't you agree?
I think there is a difference between 'cultural identity markers' and 'spirituality identity markers'. Of course these are not mutually exclusive.
I mean that I do not see that it would be possible to grow as an Orthodox Christian without fasting, having a rule of prayer, participating in the Liturgy etc. But it is entirely possible to grow as an Orthodox Christian without knowing or singing Coptic hymns.
This doesn't deal with any particular circumstance. But it is necessary to note that forms of music and language are cultural and not essentially Orthodox. Fasting is essentially Orthodox though particular rules may also add a cultural element. This is a difference. Someone within a particular Orthodox cultural context will receive forms of music and language in that cultural context, but when they move out of that context, such as when living in the West rather than in Egypt, then it is normal and natural that the cultural context is acknowledged as being different and that therefore issues and questions around culture be addressed. These questions and issues need not necessarily cause a change in the form of music and language, but they may well do.
I don't believe that forms of music are in the same category as spiritual disciplines. I think it wrong to conflate the two. It is possible and expected in Orthodoxy to follow exactly the same fasting rules while having a different language and musicality. Spirituality is not cultural in the way that forms of music and language are.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12849.msg151510#msg151510 date=1328528282] Boi, you best watch yo mouf!
Hahaha ;D
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151512#msg151512 date=1328539858] hahaha......I am not a fan of the Australian accent.....and I LOVE the English one.
Comments
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
link?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
Is it awesome, because he is a male? lol jk
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151455#msg151455 date=1328311995]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
link?
OK Mina ,
Do this:
--> Launch iTunes
--> Go to Musique Category
--> Type Coptic in the Search box
---> Find Saint Mark's Coptic Orthodox Church Choir - Washington DC (The Agpeya).
That is seriously the best psalm reading i've heard in my life.
Anyway, I wouldn't copy it, its too hard, you'd need a great voice to do it, and a LOT of confidence to even pray ONE Psalm that way. Who would let u pray like that during the liturgy?! There would be no time.
Oh...you are talking about those english recordings. I have to say that they are a great recording but i personally am not a fan of reading agpeya that way--too much hazzat and and going high on words. this is my opinion on many of the arabic recordings of the agpeya to. The best recording of agpeya in arabic are the ones recorded by Shababa El-anba Roweis....by far the best.
I started to appreciate the Agpeya at a late age, unfortunately. Its one of the major reasons why I love the COC - I think this form of prayer is probably the most beneficial ever.
Let's face it, NO ONE is ever going to pray using this tune in the liturgy.. are they?
No, I haven't heard the Shababa recording.
I didn't notice that much hazzats in this one, btw.
Let's face it, NO ONE is ever going to pray using this tune in the liturgy.. are they?
well....that really doesn't matter because within the liturgy, the psalms are not said audibly. Also agpeya tends to be 'faster' during that time. But in youth meeting, before tasbeha and even general prayers, the tune doesn't matter as much. the agpeya is to be prayed first...then if the person is talented enough they can chant the psalms because this may (which does most of the time), brings the person closer to being in front of God. Well there is a lot jumps in the english but than he stops and specific words to add some hazzat keda....
Just a personal preference, but I'm not a fan of the American accent.
Boi, you best watch yo mouf!
Just a personal preference, but I'm not a fan of the American accent.
hahaha......I am not a fan of the Australian accent.....and I LOVE the English one.
It seems to me that this is also reasonably applied in the use of hymns and the length of the service. I would expect a liturgy to last at least 2 hours. This is how long my own lasts. People often have other God-given responsibilities, and have travelled some distance to be together at the Liturgy. Those who turn up late because they don't care are the responsibility of the priest in any case. In my own context I am always considering how the spirituality of the congregation can be increased through participation in the liturgy, and I will discuss with my bishop and other clergy, and the deacons and laity, what increase in content I would like, so that we are all aware what I am asking and why I am asking for it.
What if, Fr Peter, more and more parishioners in your congregation are frustrated that the liturgy is 2 hours? More than likely they will not tell you this but more and more parishioners will turn up late and some will leave. Following discussions with your bishop, clergy and deacons, and requesting an increase in participation, what would you do if the congregation continues to request 1 hour liturgies? Logically I agree with you. But I have been criticized for adding one 5 minute hymn on many occasions. This is what I wanted to confirm. No arguing here. This illustrates my original post. Music is a language in itself. It is not "a sounding brass or clanging cymbal" (1 Cor 13:1) if you educate yourself about music. Those who do not or cannot pray a one-word, 15 minute hymn and receive a spiritual experience cannot understand or believe that such a thing is possible. Such a belief (or lack of belief) is not hymnology problem. Those who can pray these one-word, 15 minute hymns and experience a spiritual enlightenment see this as one of the highest form of worship. It seems to me that those who cannot conceive of such a form of worship are a product of a culture that sees this worship as foreign. Those who can worship this way see nothing foreign about it. No it is not unreasonable that some musical elements based on Ancient Egyptian culture are less attractive to the youth? But neither are other spiritual exercises. Many youth are not attracted to fasting. This is not just my opinion. Our priest tells us about many youth who complain and tell him their personal stories of how hard and unattractive fasting is for them. If appeasing the youth was the main qualification of keeping or removing a cultural action or exercise, then many things should have already been eliminated (such as the length of the liturgy). There must be a balance between keeping a cultural identity marker, like musical tradition, and finding new ways to attract the youth. I don't think attracting the youth should be achieved at the expense of cultural identity markers. Wouldn't you agree?
I mean that I do not see that it would be possible to grow as an Orthodox Christian without fasting, having a rule of prayer, participating in the Liturgy etc. But it is entirely possible to grow as an Orthodox Christian without knowing or singing Coptic hymns.
This doesn't deal with any particular circumstance. But it is necessary to note that forms of music and language are cultural and not essentially Orthodox. Fasting is essentially Orthodox though particular rules may also add a cultural element. This is a difference. Someone within a particular Orthodox cultural context will receive forms of music and language in that cultural context, but when they move out of that context, such as when living in the West rather than in Egypt, then it is normal and natural that the cultural context is acknowledged as being different and that therefore issues and questions around culture be addressed. These questions and issues need not necessarily cause a change in the form of music and language, but they may well do.
I don't believe that forms of music are in the same category as spiritual disciplines. I think it wrong to conflate the two. It is possible and expected in Orthodoxy to follow exactly the same fasting rules while having a different language and musicality. Spirituality is not cultural in the way that forms of music and language are.
Boi, you best watch yo mouf!
Hahaha ;D
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151512#msg151512 date=1328539858]
hahaha......I am not a fan of the Australian accent.....and I LOVE the English one.
Oh, I love it too ;)