H.H. Pope Shenouda Question

Why is there a two headed eagle on top of the Pope's mitre?

Link:
http://mymartyrdom.com/copticpope.jpg

Comments

  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the dual sovereignty of the Emperor (secular and religious) and/or dominance of the Byzantine Emperors over both East and West. In the Holy Roman Empire's heraldry, it represented the Church and the State. Several Eastern European nations adopted it from the Byzantines and continue to use it as their national symbol to this day, the most prominent being Russia.

    Source
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12415.msg145477#msg145477 date=1317491453]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the dual sovereignty of the Emperor (secular and religious) and/or dominance of the Byzantine Emperors over both East and West. In the Holy Roman Empire's heraldry, it represented the Church and the State. Several Eastern European nations adopted it from the Byzantines and continue to use it as their national symbol to this day, the most prominent being Russia.

    Source


    But why is His Holiness wearing one? We aren't byzantine...
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    If I were to guess, I'd say it's because it was a gift.
  • So, in your opinion, would this qualify as traditional Coptic Orthodox design?
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12415.msg145483#msg145483 date=1317493591]
    So, in your opinion, would this qualify as traditional Coptic Orthodox design?


    No, it's not a traditional Coptic Orthodox design. The icon on the mitre is also Byzantine in style. However, it is a traditional Orthodox design.
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12415.msg145484#msg145484 date=1317493745]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12415.msg145483#msg145483 date=1317493591]
    So, in your opinion, would this qualify as traditional Coptic Orthodox design?


    No, it's not a traditional Coptic Orthodox design. The icon on the mitre is also Byzantine in style. However, it is a traditional Orthodox design.


    Got it. Thank you very much.  8)

    +++
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12415.msg145485#msg145485 date=1317494123]
    Got it. Thank you very much.  8)

    +++


    My pleasure.  :)
  • It was a gift from a woman in the United States on his visit in 1991.

    The Papal Mitre that has been handed down for the last 200 years is inscribed and encrusted with jewels and a red velvet covering.  It appears similar to the regent crowns of the British Monarchy.  The metal banding is solid gold (pink gold I might add).  It is very heavy.

    The double Eagle is identified as the Dual Empire (Eastern & Western Halves) mostly as a designation.
    The Ecumenical Patriarch wears that insignia because he is the custodian to the empirial legacy until the return of the emperor and empire.  When the Ecumenical Patriarch enters a church he is received with the imperial chants and then the Patriarchal chants.

    There have been interpretations to identify the symbol as being of the Victorious and Militant Church and Its dominion throughout the world.

    It is not a Coptic symbol. 

    My personal opinion:  His Holiness should not be wearing it.
  • Thank you for further clarifying.

    But since His Holiness believes that the two Churches are the same (two lungs), and as you said it was a gift, why not wear it?
  • [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12415.msg145550#msg145550 date=1317680830]
    Thank you for further clarifying.

    But since His Holiness believes that the two Churches are the same (two lungs), and as you said it was a gift, why not wear it?

    It's an interesting question the tradition itself failed in practice.  It was also arguably and ironically part of the reason for the schism that caused us to split and subsequently persecuted our fathers.  St Athanasius spent much of his life fighting interference from the state in Church matters as more often than not the state was easily manipulated by the political arians and tried to force the Churches hand on what ought to be believed and taught.

    We're also taught that the only lasting kingdom of righteousness will be Christ's not our own.
  • Does HH really believe that the two churches are "two lungs"? I thought this was an RC expression about Eastern Catholics...it seems a little odd coming from as resolute a man as HH. Maybe he meant it in some other way.

    And I agree with LiD about the influence of worldly powers on the church. Didn't Amma Syncletica, the great desert mother, once say that just as it is not possible to be at the same time a plant a seed, it is impossible to live a holy life and be surrounded by the glories of the world? Even in my probably wrong paraphrase, this makes a lot more sense to me than a Coptic bishop wearing a Byzantine symbol identified with an empire that to a great degree persecuted the fathers of the Orthodox faith as it has been practiced in HH's own See. I of course will not for a second judge such a great, holy man, but I will say that I would feel uncomfortable wearing it given some of its associations.
  • [quote author=dzheremi link=topic=12415.msg145572#msg145572 date=1317709876]
    Does HH really believe that the two churches are "two lungs"? I thought this was an RC expression about Eastern Catholics...it seems a little odd coming from as resolute a man as HH. Maybe he meant it in some other way.

    And I agree with LiD about the influence of worldly powers on the church. Didn't Amma Syncletica, the great desert mother, once say that just as it is not possible to be at the same time a plant a seed, it is impossible to live a holy life and be surrounded by the glories of the world? Even in my probably wrong paraphrase, this makes a lot more sense to me than a Coptic bishop wearing a Byzantine symbol identified with an empire that to a great degree persecuted the fathers of the Orthodox faith as it has been practiced in HH's own See. I of course will not for a second judge such a great, holy man, but I will say that I would feel uncomfortable wearing it given some of its associations.


    The term was not used by His Holiness, but it does reflect his view on the matter quite consistently.

    In an address he gave at an ecumenical forum during the International Week of Prayer for Christian Unity held at St. Mark's Cathedral in Cairo in 1974, His Holiness declared that;

    "The whole Christian world is anxious to see the Church unite. Christian people - being fed up with divisions and dispersion - are pushing their Church leaders to do something about Church Unity and I am sure that the Holy Spirit is inspiring us. Christian Unity will be a magnificent universal achievement for generations to come. Christian Unity is God's will, so there shall be one flock and one Shepherd (John 10:16). Christian Unity is essential for Faith and Evangelism. The mere existence of so many Christian divisions and fractions is the greatest stumbling block to the world. How can they believe while truth appears to be lost amidst controversy and contradiction? In our ecumenical meetings, we should talk about actual beliefs regardless of what happened in the past. We must avoid complex and vague expressions. In spite of all the problems that might arise about History, Rites, Ecumenical Councils and so on we shall achieve good results with Love, Good Spirit and Determination. We shall achieve this together. It is God's will.

    The whole Christian world is anxious to see the Church unite, Christian people being fed up with divisions and dispersion - are pushing their church leaders to do something about Church Unity and I am sure that the Holy Spirit is inspiring us. Let us pray that we unite in the Faith delivered to us by our great Fathers who kept it, defended it and sacrificed their lives for it. Let us pray that God works in our hearts and thoughts so that we fulfill His will."



    In early 1985 (immediately upon his return from exile) an International Commission for Inter-Orthodox Theological Dialogue was established. In June 1989, His Holiness chaired the conference of the Commission and guided the conference in adopting the Christological formula of St. Cyril of Alexandria: the One Nature of the Incarnated Word.

    In his opening address His Holiness stated:

    " ... next we can find a formula of faith accepted by both families. I think there are many serious problems that took place in the Christian world, which are not less than the problems of Chalcedon. If we can be one, the world of Orthodoxy may be stronger and solid to face such serious problems."
  • I don't think that these sentiments have a great deal to do with the 2 headed eagle, at least not explicitly because its not a dogmatic , theological or other reason for disunity.

    It might be in the minds of the biggest coptic extremist (if such a thing exists) a painful thing to accept but it all happened so long ago that I can't see anyone making something ancillary like this into a big issue.

    I remember that one of the Russian Orthodox Saints who evangelised China (I forget the name) stopped praying in the Churches he evangelised when a war broke out between China and Russia because of the prayers in their liturgy in support of the state and he couldn't bear the idea of praying for the safety of Chinese soldiers when his own were in danger.

    He continued his support and prayers for the Churches without directly engaging in Liturgies with them, which says a lot for the kinds of love and sacrifice which unity will take and I think its clear that this is certainly an attitude which His Holiness is a great leader in.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12415.msg145583#msg145583 date=1317730777]
    I don't think that these sentiments have a great deal to do with the 2 headed eagle, at least not explicitly because its not a dogmatic , theological or other reason for disunity.

    It might be in the minds of the biggest coptic extremist (if such a thing exists) a painful thing to accept but it all happened so long ago that I can't see anyone making something ancillary like this into a big issue.

    I couldn't agree more. The mitre was a gift. Nothing more, and H.H. accepted it in the spirit with which it was given.

    [quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12415.msg145583#msg145583 date=1317730777]
    I remember that one of the Russian Orthodox Saints who evangelised China (I forget the name) stopped praying in the Churches he evangelised when a war broke out between China and Russia because of the prayers in their liturgy in support of the state and he couldn't bear the idea of praying for the safety of Chinese soldiers when his own were in danger.

    He continued his support and prayers for the Churches without directly engaging in Liturgies with them, which says a lot for the kinds of love and sacrifice which unity will take and I think its clear that this is certainly an attitude which His Holiness is a great leader in.


    St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12415.msg145588#msg145588 date=1317739094]
    I couldn't agree more. The mitre was a gift. Nothing more, and H.H. accepted it in the spirit with which it was given.


    Agreed.
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