This is no doubt wrong, and you should notify your priest about this. Why would the church be tempting its own people to do wrong when it is the church that leads us in the right direction. This is a problem not only because the fetari foods but they might think that it's ok to do more wrong things like this without getting punished. Please notify a priest quickly.
No meat that I'm aware of... just cheesey and dessert sort of things...but thats not very important. And honestly, I'm afraid to tell the priest haha. But yea I agree with you guys!
Well, by the time you approach them or abouna the fast will have been over. However, in future cases, approach them with humility. Maybe innocently ask: "tunt is this fasting?" She will reply "no" and all you have to say is that we are in the fast. . .
You may never know, it actually could be fasting. With all of the imitation goods being produced, cheese and dairy products can be found for vegans.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11829.msg141205#msg141205 date=1310364737] Why should the churches sell anything anyway? Even books, or other material items... Oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11829.msg141208#msg141208 date=1310365046] Yes that's right (as an answer). Jesus went to the synagogue once to find some people selling stuff, we all know how He reacted... Oujai
Do you think he was upset by the fact that they sold stuff?! It was the fact that they were ripping the people off and taking advantage of them. They weren't old ladies selling falafel for $2 dollars so the lights stay on at church. It was the some people in collusion with the priests/Sadducees/etc. charging ridiculous rates for animals to sacrifice so they could fatten their pockets.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11829.msg141209#msg141209 date=1310365276] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11829.msg141208#msg141208 date=1310365046] Yes that's right (as an answer). Jesus went to the synagogue once to find some people selling stuff, we all know how He reacted... Oujai
Do you think he was upset by the fact that they sold stuff?! It was the fact that they were ripping the people off and taking advantage of them. They weren't old ladies selling falafel for $2 dollars so the lights stay on at church. It was the some people in collusion with the priests/Sadducees/etc. charging ridiculous rates for animals to sacrifice so they could fatten their pockets.
In the southern California diocese of Los Angeles , Anba Serapion has said that churches in the diocese can't sell food, because there are people who can't afford to eat. The selling of books is ok though, because it's like a book store not a library, plus the money is going to the church funds not to the pocket of the priest.
because it's like a book store not a library, plus the money is going to the church funds not to the pocket of the priest.
I do not accept the last part of this phrase " the money is going to the church funds not to the pocket of the priest". I doubt the fact that any of the money the Church collects goes into the priest's pocket. Priests have a fixed income that either comes out of the diocese or the church.
There are lot of churches who sell food in the church premises as a way to raise money. But this is not acceptable for the church should not be run as a business. It is a place for spiritual healing.
Churches shouldn't be selling anything. You offer a donation for anything that is presented. I never allow anyone in the kitchen to tabulate the costs. I give them a folded check and walk away.
If we are into sales and profit, then Our Lord has shown a great displeasure with such conduct.
because it's like a book store not a library, plus the money is going to the church funds not to the pocket of the priest.
I do not accept the last part of this phrase " the money is going to the church funds not to the pocket of the priest". I doubt the fact that any of the money the Church collects goes into the priest's pocket. Priests have a fixed income that either comes out of the diocese or the church.
There are lot of churches who sell food in the church premises as a way to raise money. But this is not acceptable for the church should not be run as a business. It is a place for spiritual healing.
That's basically what i just said , the money isn't going to the priest it is going to the church, I don't see what i said wrong there.
I have also noticed that the "Bookstore" in churches is a controversial topic, because some people say that the church shouldn't be selling things because it is "for the spiritual healing" like imikhail said. I totally agree with that, but tell me how the church is going to spiritually heal when it gets foreclosed. Of course, if you can't afford to buy a book, then the people at the bookstore will let you borrow it for free, but for the most part it makes money that goes to various things like church bills (My church is building a new church and they are paying 2.5 million in cash!) or other equipment for the church such as candles books etc...
Most of the money comes from tithes of course, because most of the people are faithful in returning to God what is His, but sometimes it isn't enough and the bookstore really helps out. \
Basically in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a bookstore at church, but selling food is WRONG.
Dear all, In my opinion, there is something wrong with selling anything in the church period. Obviously, in the era of the apostles the faithful would always go and donate the money they had, and share out with each other for the benefit of the whole church. Also lying, and dishonesty may get into that, and we know what happened with Ananias and Sapphira. I am not quite sure how it worked in the days of Christ, but I would assume it was something like this as well. However, with the decreasing number of Christians all over Egypt because of oppression and such like, the number of Christians paying into churches (with their growing number of course) was dwindling. So a very very difficult decision had to be taken (I can't claim I know exactly when), but then churches starting opening up bookshops, selling books, tapes, and nowadays CD's. When I came to the UK, I noticed a newer trend in some (not all churches) selling of food! I don't think any of those practices are right. The faithful should be encouraged to share their possession with the church (FULL STOP). If they don't, then the church shouldn't share Her possession with people for MONEY. That is wrong in my view. This is just an open forum, I was saying my views publicly to all as brothers and sisters. I don't intend to cause any controversy, or disputes, nor do I plan on making people fall out with each other or with authorities in the church. I am just talking for the IDEAL point of view that the church teaches. Oujai
Books are different than food. The church is not supposed to make a profit on selling books. The church incurred cost to acquire the books and people who buy it should pay that cost back.
Food on the other hand is for sharing an aghaby together. To tell someone you cannot share in the meal because you cannot afford it is against the Bible teaching.
I think I agree with most of what you said, ophadece. It's a circular problem: The people don't donate so the church has to sell things. The church sells things, so people don't donate.
It is difficult for a church to COMPLETELY stop selling.
Another problem is that people have separated themselves from the church. What I mean by this is, in the times of the apostles the people were the church. So when I just took food without offering, I was eating X,Y, & Z's food. Now food just appears on a table and people don't know who paid for it or where it came from.
Similarly, people do not depend on the church because it is becoming a part of our lives as opposed to being our life. We do not have the mindset that we are one family. Who doesn't buy groceries in their own home? Who doesn't pay the bills? Who doesn't clean their home and respect it? We all do; we have to.
So there is a separation now between our biological family and our church family. The former we treat with much more importance than the latter. In the times of the apostles I don't suspect it was so. They lived together, ate together, worked together, prayed together, etc.
As our communities grow so large all we really do nowadays is occasionally pray together and very few times gather for a meal.
Since we do not have this strong family connection people do not want to donate and the church does not feel so wrong in charging for things.
Think about it: Would a son who is working , yet living at home, never pay the bills or buy some groceries? Would a father charge his son for each meal he eats?
Personally, I don't see the problem with churches having a bookstore and selling things that will be of spiritual benefit to the congregation. People have no problems with giving donations to a church: what is the problem with the church providing materials that will be of spiritual edification to her children?
In an ideal world, we would have no need of currency: people would take only what they need and give all they could. But the books/icons/pictures/audio CDs/saint's videos/tonias/cymbals that the church bookstore sells have cost money: money to make, money to transport. For their continued supply, people have to pay.
I would think that paying money to a Church bookstore would be one of the better causes my money would ultimately fund.
My argument is based on the following: 1. Sales dealings imply transfer of possession rather than a collective ownership. 2. Creates a barrier between the seller and buyer, ie not encouraging a one family position. 3. Implies whether directly or indirectly making profits... Christ in the synagogue? Oujai
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11829.msg141192#msg141192 date=1310357177] 100% wrong. No debate.
Is it really 100% wrong? Fasting in the Orthodox Church is not about the type of foods you eat in a certain time period. It is about complete abstinence from food with repentance and good works. If you don't have good works, you fasting is voided (See Micah 3). If you don't repent from your sins, your fasting is nothing more than dieting. Period.
In addition, there is no church canon anywhere that says you can't sell non-fasting food during a fasting period. This might seem like an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., only the Pharisees had such rules) but the opposite is also an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., selling non-fasting food during a fast is prohibited).
It may be inappropriate to sell non-fasting food during a fasting period, but not wrong. In fact, things that seem inappropriate by cultural norms are in fact appropriate by Christian standards. Look at Romans 14:3: "The one who eats everything (meat is specified in this chapter) must not treat with contempt the one who does not (i.e., the one who fasts), and the one who does not eat everything (the one who fasts) must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them." There is, however, a modifier to this Christian standard. " All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble." Romans 14:20.
So the food is not the problem. The food, whether kofta or cheese, is irrelevant. Neither is the actual act of eating these foods in non-fasting times relevant. The only issue we need to deal with stumbling. Will eating or selling these foods cause my brother to stumble? In my opinion, Egyptians have a tendency to stumble over anything and everything that is "unusual". Everything that they don't do or don't agree with or believe in is "prohibited". But the Gospel is clear. It is wrong to eat or sell something that will make others stumble, just as much as it is wrong for them to stumble over things that are inherently pure.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11829.msg141252#msg141252 date=1310421600] This is a major peave of mine.
Donation does not equal Purchase.
If it is a purchase, then one should not be deducting from their taxes--because it wasn't a donation.
Churches are not receiving tithes. Not even 10% of the people are giving their tithes. If they were, we would not be having this discussion.
Being the son of an IRS auditor, I was curious about this. In the eyes of the IRS, every church is tax exempt. They don't pay taxes for any income they get. Period. It doesn't matter if you want to call it a donation or a purchase. There's no difference. The only reason the IRS allows deductions for charitable donations to individuals also is to uphold the first amendment (separate church from government). So if the IRS taxed an individual who gave a donation to a church (or purchased an item from a church), they would be indirectly imposing tax law on the operation of the church.
This is tax law and theory. Morally and philosophically, there is a difference between a donation and a purchase. The difference is the intention. A donation implies you are not getting anything in return, while a purchase (like Ophadece) said is an exchange of goods. This notion however doesn't take into account that both a donation and a purchase exchanges intangible items. You give a donation for the intangible benefit of following God's commandment. Even buying a tangible item in a church has intangible exchange. Your purchase helps keep the church functioning as much as a donation does. (i.e., both a donation and a purchase defrays the expenses of the churches). The important thing to remember is whether you donate money or purchase an item, the intention must be to give freely and as much as you can.
Is it really 100% wrong? Fasting in the Orthodox Church is not about the type of foods you eat in a certain time period. It is about complete abstinence from food with repentance and good works. If you don't have good works, you fasting is voided (See Micah 3). If you don't repent from your sins, your fasting is nothing more than dieting. Period.
In addition, there is no church canon anywhere that says you can't sell non-fasting food during a fasting period. This might seem like an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., only the Pharisees had such rules) but the opposite is also an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., selling non-fasting food during a fast is prohibited).
It may be inappropriate to sell non-fasting food during a fasting period, but not wrong. In fact, things that seem inappropriate by cultural norms are in fact appropriate by Christian standards. Look at Romans 14:3: "The one who eats everything (meat is specified in this chapter) must not treat with contempt the one who does not (i.e., the one who fasts), and the one who does not eat everything (the one who fasts) must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them." There is, however, a modifier to this Christian standard. " All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble." Romans 14:20.
So the food is not the problem. The food, whether kofta or cheese, is irrelevant. Neither is the actual act of eating these foods in non-fasting times relevant. The only issue we need to deal with stumbling. Will eating or selling these foods cause my brother to stumble? In my opinion, Egyptians have a tendency to stumble over anything and everything that is "unusual". Everything that they don't do or don't agree with or believe in is "prohibited". But the Gospel is clear. It is wrong to eat or sell something that will make others stumble, just as much as it is wrong for them to stumble over things that are inherently pure.
It's not so black and white to say 100% wrong.
OK, let me change that: 99.999 % wrong. When you find me a situation in which no one is caused to stumble, not even ONE person, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The fact is someone will always be caused to stumble when the church tells people to do one thing and then offers them incentive not to do that same thing! What makes it even more difficult is the fact that we never know if we caused someone to stumble or not!
Comments
You may never know, it actually could be fasting. With all of the imitation goods being produced, cheese and dairy products can be found for vegans.
Oujai
Why should the churches sell anything anyway? Even books, or other material items...
Oujai
B/C people don't donate.
Oujai
Yes that's right (as an answer). Jesus went to the synagogue once to find some people selling stuff, we all know how He reacted...
Oujai
Do you think he was upset by the fact that they sold stuff?! It was the fact that they were ripping the people off and taking advantage of them. They weren't old ladies selling falafel for $2 dollars so the lights stay on at church. It was the some people in collusion with the priests/Sadducees/etc. charging ridiculous rates for animals to sacrifice so they could fatten their pockets.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11829.msg141209#msg141209 date=1310365276]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11829.msg141208#msg141208 date=1310365046]
Yes that's right (as an answer). Jesus went to the synagogue once to find some people selling stuff, we all know how He reacted...
Oujai
Do you think he was upset by the fact that they sold stuff?! It was the fact that they were ripping the people off and taking advantage of them. They weren't old ladies selling falafel for $2 dollars so the lights stay on at church. It was the some people in collusion with the priests/Sadducees/etc. charging ridiculous rates for animals to sacrifice so they could fatten their pockets.
QFT
There are lot of churches who sell food in the church premises as a way to raise money. But this is not acceptable for the church should not be run as a business. It is a place for spiritual healing.
I never allow anyone in the kitchen to tabulate the costs. I give them a folded check and
walk away.
If we are into sales and profit, then Our Lord has shown a great displeasure with such conduct.
There are lot of churches who sell food in the church premises as a way to raise money. But this is not acceptable for the church should not be run as a business. It is a place for spiritual healing.
That's basically what i just said , the money isn't going to the priest it is going to the church, I don't see what i said wrong there.
I have also noticed that the "Bookstore" in churches is a controversial topic, because some people say that the church shouldn't be selling things because it is "for the spiritual healing" like imikhail said. I totally agree with that, but tell me how the church is going to spiritually heal when it gets foreclosed. Of course, if you can't afford to buy a book, then the people at the bookstore will let you borrow it for free, but for the most part it makes money that goes to various things like church bills (My church is building a new church and they are paying 2.5 million in cash!) or other equipment for the church such as candles books etc...
Most of the money comes from tithes of course, because most of the people are faithful in returning to God what is His, but sometimes it isn't enough and the bookstore really helps out. \
Basically in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a bookstore at church, but selling food is WRONG.
In my opinion, there is something wrong with selling anything in the church period. Obviously, in the era of the apostles the faithful would always go and donate the money they had, and share out with each other for the benefit of the whole church. Also lying, and dishonesty may get into that, and we know what happened with Ananias and Sapphira. I am not quite sure how it worked in the days of Christ, but I would assume it was something like this as well.
However, with the decreasing number of Christians all over Egypt because of oppression and such like, the number of Christians paying into churches (with their growing number of course) was dwindling. So a very very difficult decision had to be taken (I can't claim I know exactly when), but then churches starting opening up bookshops, selling books, tapes, and nowadays CD's. When I came to the UK, I noticed a newer trend in some (not all churches) selling of food!
I don't think any of those practices are right. The faithful should be encouraged to share their possession with the church (FULL STOP). If they don't, then the church shouldn't share Her possession with people for MONEY. That is wrong in my view.
This is just an open forum, I was saying my views publicly to all as brothers and sisters. I don't intend to cause any controversy, or disputes, nor do I plan on making people fall out with each other or with authorities in the church. I am just talking for the IDEAL point of view that the church teaches.
Oujai
Food on the other hand is for sharing an aghaby together. To tell someone you cannot share in the meal because you cannot afford it is against the Bible teaching.
It is difficult for a church to COMPLETELY stop selling.
Another problem is that people have separated themselves from the church. What I mean by this is, in the times of the apostles the people were the church. So when I just took food without offering, I was eating X,Y, & Z's food. Now food just appears on a table and people don't know who paid for it or where it came from.
Similarly, people do not depend on the church because it is becoming a part of our lives as opposed to being our life. We do not have the mindset that we are one family. Who doesn't buy groceries in their own home? Who doesn't pay the bills? Who doesn't clean their home and respect it? We all do; we have to.
So there is a separation now between our biological family and our church family. The former we treat with much more importance than the latter. In the times of the apostles I don't suspect it was so. They lived together, ate together, worked together, prayed together, etc.
As our communities grow so large all we really do nowadays is occasionally pray together and very few times gather for a meal.
Since we do not have this strong family connection people do not want to donate and the church does not feel so wrong in charging for things.
Think about it: Would a son who is working , yet living at home, never pay the bills or buy some groceries? Would a father charge his son for each meal he eats?
In an ideal world, we would have no need of currency: people would take only what they need and give all they could. But the books/icons/pictures/audio CDs/saint's videos/tonias/cymbals that the church bookstore sells have cost money: money to make, money to transport. For their continued supply, people have to pay.
I would think that paying money to a Church bookstore would be one of the better causes my money would ultimately fund.
Donation does not equal Purchase.
If it is a purchase, then one should not be deducting from their taxes--because it wasn't a donation.
Churches are not receiving tithes. Not even 10% of the people are giving their tithes.
If they were, we would not be having this discussion.
Oujai
$2.5 million is a bargain.
I know of two church projects that are in th works at: $9 million and $10.5 million respectively.
100% wrong. No debate.
Is it really 100% wrong? Fasting in the Orthodox Church is not about the type of foods you eat in a certain time period. It is about complete abstinence from food with repentance and good works. If you don't have good works, you fasting is voided (See Micah 3). If you don't repent from your sins, your fasting is nothing more than dieting. Period.
In addition, there is no church canon anywhere that says you can't sell non-fasting food during a fasting period. This might seem like an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., only the Pharisees had such rules) but the opposite is also an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., selling non-fasting food during a fast is prohibited).
It may be inappropriate to sell non-fasting food during a fasting period, but not wrong. In fact, things that seem inappropriate by cultural norms are in fact appropriate by Christian standards. Look at Romans 14:3: "The one who eats everything (meat is specified in this chapter) must not treat with contempt the one who does not (i.e., the one who fasts), and the one who does not eat everything (the one who fasts) must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them." There is, however, a modifier to this Christian standard. " All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble." Romans 14:20.
So the food is not the problem. The food, whether kofta or cheese, is irrelevant. Neither is the actual act of eating these foods in non-fasting times relevant. The only issue we need to deal with stumbling. Will eating or selling these foods cause my brother to stumble? In my opinion, Egyptians have a tendency to stumble over anything and everything that is "unusual". Everything that they don't do or don't agree with or believe in is "prohibited". But the Gospel is clear. It is wrong to eat or sell something that will make others stumble, just as much as it is wrong for them to stumble over things that are inherently pure.
It's not so black and white to say 100% wrong.
This is a major peave of mine.
Donation does not equal Purchase.
If it is a purchase, then one should not be deducting from their taxes--because it wasn't a donation.
Churches are not receiving tithes. Not even 10% of the people are giving their tithes.
If they were, we would not be having this discussion.
Being the son of an IRS auditor, I was curious about this. In the eyes of the IRS, every church is tax exempt. They don't pay taxes for any income they get. Period. It doesn't matter if you want to call it a donation or a purchase. There's no difference. The only reason the IRS allows deductions for charitable donations to individuals also is to uphold the first amendment (separate church from government). So if the IRS taxed an individual who gave a donation to a church (or purchased an item from a church), they would be indirectly imposing tax law on the operation of the church.
This is tax law and theory. Morally and philosophically, there is a difference between a donation and a purchase. The difference is the intention. A donation implies you are not getting anything in return, while a purchase (like Ophadece) said is an exchange of goods. This notion however doesn't take into account that both a donation and a purchase exchanges intangible items. You give a donation for the intangible benefit of following God's commandment. Even buying a tangible item in a church has intangible exchange. Your purchase helps keep the church functioning as much as a donation does. (i.e., both a donation and a purchase defrays the expenses of the churches). The important thing to remember is whether you donate money or purchase an item, the intention must be to give freely and as much as you can.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11829.msg141192#msg141192 date=1310357177]
100% wrong. No debate.
Is it really 100% wrong? Fasting in the Orthodox Church is not about the type of foods you eat in a certain time period. It is about complete abstinence from food with repentance and good works. If you don't have good works, you fasting is voided (See Micah 3). If you don't repent from your sins, your fasting is nothing more than dieting. Period.
In addition, there is no church canon anywhere that says you can't sell non-fasting food during a fasting period. This might seem like an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., only the Pharisees had such rules) but the opposite is also an overt Pharisee argument (i.e., selling non-fasting food during a fast is prohibited).
It may be inappropriate to sell non-fasting food during a fasting period, but not wrong. In fact, things that seem inappropriate by cultural norms are in fact appropriate by Christian standards. Look at Romans 14:3: "The one who eats everything (meat is specified in this chapter) must not treat with contempt the one who does not (i.e., the one who fasts), and the one who does not eat everything (the one who fasts) must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them." There is, however, a modifier to this Christian standard. " All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble." Romans 14:20.
So the food is not the problem. The food, whether kofta or cheese, is irrelevant. Neither is the actual act of eating these foods in non-fasting times relevant. The only issue we need to deal with stumbling. Will eating or selling these foods cause my brother to stumble? In my opinion, Egyptians have a tendency to stumble over anything and everything that is "unusual". Everything that they don't do or don't agree with or believe in is "prohibited". But the Gospel is clear. It is wrong to eat or sell something that will make others stumble, just as much as it is wrong for them to stumble over things that are inherently pure.
It's not so black and white to say 100% wrong.
OK, let me change that: 99.999 % wrong. When you find me a situation in which no one is caused to stumble, not even ONE person, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The fact is someone will always be caused to stumble when the church tells people to do one thing and then offers them incentive not to do that same thing! What makes it even more difficult is the fact that we never know if we caused someone to stumble or not!