Laqan for Feast of Epiphany

Hello everyone,

I know it's kind of late but I was wondering if anyone knows the tune for Psalm 150 for laqan when the priest is blessing the congregation with the water that was prayed on during the laqan prayer. Is it festive or annual? Thanks a lot.

Comments

  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10502.msg127449#msg127449 date=1295489544]
    Hello everyone,

    I know it's kind of late but I was wondering if anyone knows the tune for Psalm 150 for laqan when the priest is blessing the congregation with the water that was prayed on during the laqan prayer. Is it festive or annual? Thanks a lot.

    the rite of the Laqan of Epiphany is festive.....therefore psalm 150 is chanted exactly like you'd chanted in the feast liturgy with its response.
    ophadce will argue the whole service is annual....but despite that, psalm 150 would take the rite of the whole service.
  • The whole service is annual including psalm 150. There is Pauline, there is agios, there is a psalm, there is a Gospel that should all (and in fact are) annual, so I fail to see how psalm 150 can be an exception. The practice in our church however, they did sing it joyful but I'm in disagreement...
    Oujai
  • One word... why?
    Not to test your way of thinking but I just want to know.
  • Dear Cyril97,
    I may assume that question is to me, rather than anyone else: my answer is: laqqan is a sevice in its own right; ie it is not subject to ceremonials. Pretty much like the joyful rites of weddings done on annual days, the liturgy of Maundy Thursday (which is annual, or as some books claim half joyful half annual), and the rites of glorifications falling on any day of the year - they won't be sung in Lenten, Kiahkly, or joyful tune for example. Specific set of tunes for that particular rite
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10502.msg127522#msg127522 date=1295506563]
    The whole service is annual including psalm 150. There is Pauline, there is agios, there is a psalm, there is a Gospel that should all (and in fact are) annual, so I fail to see how psalm 150 can be an exception. The practice in our church however, they did sing it joyful but I'm in disagreement...
    Oujai


    Sorry, I think I got confused.
    Did you say this as for the laqan or for the liturgy?
    Cyril
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10502.msg127634#msg127634 date=1295560051]
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10502.msg127522#msg127522 date=1295506563]
    The whole service is annual including psalm 150. There is Pauline, there is agios, there is a psalm, there is a Gospel that should all (and in fact are) annual, so I fail to see how psalm 150 can be an exception. The practice in our church however, they did sing it joyful but I'm in disagreement...
    Oujai


    Sorry, I think I got confused.
    Did you say this as for the laqan or for the liturgy?
    Cyril


    the Laqan is truly a liturgy on its own...in a way.
    when Ophadece is done i'll comment on the rest of the post.
  • In today's world....a couple of things have changed. One important thing is the time of services in the day. Let me give examples and issues that have been going on recently.

    The General Funeral of Palm Sunday:the original rite was done before vespers time, long after liturgy is done. Now, do  to the fact that people go home after liturgy and don't come back for the service, across the years churches and priest began to bring the service closer to the end of liturgy so people would actually be there....to the point that sometimes they cut communion of the liturgy (or atleast the hymns being chanted) short and begin the service.....which is not fitting for a Major Feast of the Lord. So that's why a couple of years ago the Pope began the whole idea of not praying that service IF IT'S done right after liturgy in the sad tune because again, it's simply not fitting.

    Also with the tamgeed: the tamgeed, if i remember correctly, was a separate prayer that was done together with the taqdees (also another service).....today they are mixed together and then they are than put into vespers prayer (even though a couple of church still seprate it from vespers but does not do the whole original rite). with the tamgeed thoo, it is not a big deal as some might think. 95 percent of the tamgeed hymns have their own tune that don't change with the time or occasion the Church is in.

    To not talk more about this, there is a clash of the time the services were done a long time ago and now so it's fit to the people.

    Similarly, the Laqan is thought to be a service by itself that was done fully separately not with in the liturgy. If i am not mistaken, it was to be done before matins. Nowadays it is prayed after matins. In Theophany, we have to consider that Matins is festive. To do the Laqqan after Matins with annual tune and than get back to the liturgy with festive tune is not fitting.

    That's my opinion and what i was taught from a couple of priests.....it's worth mentioning that Anba Mettaous states in his rites book that the Laqan of Theophany in the Festive rite.
  • Ok quickly, as I will have more time later hopefully.
    Firstly, I doubt if general funeral was done around the vespers time, because my understanding is that it should be before the beginning of the Jewish new day, ie before 6 o'clock. So when you consider you take around an hour or an hour and a half for general funeral, then another two prayers (ninth and eleventh hour of Sunday) to cram all up before six o'clock, then you would have to start at the very latest 3.30 or 4.00 (when the liturgy was used to actually finishing around 14.30 or 15.00 - yes I know some churches used to start very early, and would finish by 13.30 or 14.00 including Communion, but that is not the case with all churches, so practicality plays a role.
    Secondly, I agree with you about tamgeed: my point exactly.
    Thirdly, my wedding was prayed in festive after annual matins, and the liturgy continued as annual. How is it a problem to pray laqqan in annual on a festive day? Major Lordly feast? There is still a hot debate going on about vespers and matins prayed in annual or festive? (I am for the former but not 100% sure - at least for vespers I guess, because midnight praises you'll have to say the big hos, and the different psalies if we are honest, but no one except monasteries in Egypt does that anymore), and then in matins seven tunes, but not in vespers, which brings me back to te point that vespers is treated differently to the rest of the day's rites, meaning we still say danwosht, rather than amwini maranwosht.
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10502.msg127647#msg127647 date=1295566699]
    Ok quickly, as I will have more time later hopefully.
    Firstly, I doubt if general funeral was done around the vespers time, because my understanding is that it should be before the beginning of the Jewish new day, ie before 6 o'clock. So when you consider you take around an hour or an hour and a half for general funeral, then another two prayers (ninth and eleventh hour of Sunday) to cram all up before six o'clock, then you would have to start at the very latest 3.30 or 4.00 (when the liturgy was used to actually finishing around 14.30 or 15.00 - yes I know some churches used to start very early, and would finish by 13.30 or 14.00 including Communion, but that is not the case with all churches, so practicality plays a role.
    i said before vespers yes.....before the day is done. Anba Rafael does the general funeral at 4 pm and does it with the full sad tune as we always did it 3-4 yrs ago.


    Thirdly, my wedding was prayed in festive after annual matins, and the liturgy continued as annual. How is it a problem to pray laqqan in annual on a festive day? Major Lordly feast? There is still a hot debate going on about vespers and matins prayed in annual or festive? (I am for the former but not 100% sure - at least for vespers I guess, because midnight praises you'll have to say the big hos, and the different psalies if we are honest, but no one except monasteries in Egypt does that anymore), and then in matins seven tunes, but not in vespers, which brings me back to te point that vespers is treated differently to the rest of the day's rites, meaning we still say danwosht, rather than amwini maranwosht.
    Oujai

    yes it is a touchy topic but we do our best to keep up. 
  • I highly agree with what you guys are saying, regarding the church accomodating the people. In the past century or so, our church has had to sacrifice many things for the sake of the people. But seriously, what can we (Mina, Orphadece, Me,) 100 other people (why not) do?
    We can't really fix it, because, the same way that it took about a century to destroy the church, it would take probably the same time to re-build it. I am really for doing anything to fix it, but I don't know how? What would you like me to do? Tell all the congragation that the general funeral has been moved to 3o'clock and when abouna shows up around 4o'colck, and make us rush thru the hymns tell him that that is wrong? I really wish to fix this.
    Also, regarding the Epiphany, in my church this was the schedule:
    6:30-7:30 Vespers (Festive tune)
    7:30-8:30 Laqan (Annual- I think)
    8:30-9:00 Prime (Festive tune (Pio-oini, and the whole thing))
    9:00-12:30 Liturgy (Obviously festive)
    Is that right in regards to the church rites.
    Believe me, I really, really, really, wish that we (all christians united) pray like St. Paul in such a manner like when he said the the earth shook.
    God bless, Pray for me and for this issue,
    Cyril
  • The Laqqan is not always done after matins, in my church we did Laqqan before matins, in annual tune. Mind you guys, this prayer is almost the EXACT same prayer(if not it probably is the same prayer) as done before baptisms. The liturgy of the water is in fact its own rite, so no matter when done, should be done annual. My two cents
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