Variation in hymns

peterfarrington

I was wondering if those with knowledge could speak about the tradition of hymns in the past.

Was it the case that different regions of Egypt had variant hymn traditions. And if so, to what extent. And have these survived. If not, what and when was the mechanism of standardisation.

Father Peter

minatasgeel

after having an easy exam (at 8 am) that i was studying for till 4 am, i can talk a little about this.

[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10207.msg124807#msg124807 date=1292591227]
Was it the case that different regions of Egypt had variant hymn traditions.
That is true yes. The hymns texts were always there either from manuscripts or from published books that were brought to the Church by Pope Kerrelos (the fourth i think...maybe the fifth) who cared much about the education of the youth and that's where he opened the first printing press to print church books.

And if so, to what extent. And have these survived. If not, what and when was the mechanism of standardisation.

I have to say.....not tooo far. it really depends on the person's ear and what he accepts to be "different." like if i hear an extra note here or there or a cantor gets into the hymn and goes a little higher in a estikhon, i personally don't mind it.....for a couple of reasons: old cantors have no musical experience in whatsoever therefore no one will sing like the other (loss of harmony). That reasons bring us to have hymns tunes handed down orally and not in a musical form (notes). Actually, i was just telling someone on another post that if we hear M Mikhael the great, we will not be able to enjoy the hymns or even learn. His voice was the best to develop musical notes....which what Mr. Raghep Moftah did.
One separate reason is that many of our psalies/doxologies/theotokias (hymns that emphasize the text more than the tune) have the same set tune (more like "way") and can be constructed (we say "rakeep" in arabic) differently on the text.

Now to get back to the extent in general: you have cantors almost in every major church in the area (considering that egypt have small church in small cities with no priests). Those cantors can have different teachers; receiving the hymns they know from different people. Now you have different regions: Alexandria, Cairo, Tanta, Upper Egypt with it's many places and also monasteries that may have great cantors (like m Tawfik who was from Saint Mary's El-muharaq). There was no connection at all between them. And when some decided that they will go around egypt and collect the hymns (Mr Ragheb with m Mikhael and a couple of other cantors), many of them were too old and others were just not recognized. Also the main purpose of that movement was not to "standardize" but to collect the hymns before they die with those who knew them. Even though this all happen, there are still hymns we find that were not recorded by M Mikhael.

coptic_deacon

To expand on what minagir is saying, some hymns/tunes are known by the region in which they originated.

1. The chanting of the Psalms in Holy Week. The tune is known as the Athribite tune. This is because it originated from the town of Athrib in Egypt. Im not exactly sure where it is now.

2. The Singari tune. This tune is used to chant Psalms on the three major Lordly feasts, Nativity, Theophany, and the Ressurection. It originated from the town of Singar, near the Nile Delta. However, this town was destroyed in 1113 AD, due to flooding after the Nile burst its banks. This tune is the only thing left from that town.

3. The Shami tune. This is used to chant the Psalm of the Twelfth hour of Great Friday "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; Your royal scepter is a scepter of uprightness" Psalm 44 verse 7 (OSB). This tune was written by St. James the brother of the Lord and first Bishop of Jerusalem in the first century. The Coptic Orthodox Church is the only church that has kept it. I think "Shami" means Syrian.

Hope it helps. Pray for me, Father.

ophadece

Atriba is a city in upper Egypt western along the line of Assiut as far as I can remember (I'll get back to you on that one). Shamyactually means Lebanese but I guess it can also refer to Syria being close to the former...

mechaiel

To add to all that is mentioned above:

Was it the case that different regions of Egypt had variant hymn traditions.

I am sure there was. There are certain hymns where a different musical version existed in different parts of Egypt. So, the words would be the same, the overall musical pattern is the same, but the musical notes are different. From the recordings I've heard there were certain main areas which had these differences (eg Alexandria, Cairo, Assyut).
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And if so, to what extent.

Some differences were only slight. An example is the hymn "Asomen to Kirio", chanted during Communion, during the Apostles' Fast. Compare how Cantor Tawfiq Yousef (from Assyut) chants it, in comparison to Cantor Ibrahim Ayad (from Cairo). Both recordings may be found here:
http://www.coptichymns.net/module-hymns-catview-pid-54.html
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For certain other hymns, the difference in tune is markedly significant. Comare "Ti shori", chanted on Good Friday.

Compare Cantor Tawfiq:
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Holy_Week/Higher_Institute_of_Studies/cd3/track_13.1062.mp3

To Cantor Ibrahim:
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Holy_Week/Ibrahim_Ayad/Part_5/04-Tishouree.1656.mp3
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And have these survived. If not, what and when was the mechanism of standardisation.

Some variant hymns have survived, mainly in recordings such as theose quoted above. However, I think that everyone in Egypt and abroad (myself included) is currently imitating Cantor Ibrahim, as he is the main teacher of hymns at the Cantor's academy (Didymus Institute in Cairo) and the Theological College in Cairo. Hopefully, these variant hymns will be preserved, at least in recordings, because the current trend is showing that they will eventually be lost.

Regards,

Mechaiel
Australia