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Controversy of Fr. Zakaria's ministry
  • Im sure some of you may of heard of father Zakaria's ministry in Egypt and how he has all the Muslims furious for what he's been doing...

    For those of you who dont know, Fr. Zakaria is a devoted priest residing in Egypt whos been committed to keeping the faith alive in Egypt and answering some of the many misconceptions the muslim community has had concerning our faith. In fact, because he has been so influential, he's made tons of muslims convert. A lot of muslim authorities blasphemed against what he's been doing and they complained to pope shenouda III. When asked why he doesnt stop fr zakaria from evangelizing, he replied back saying that fr Zakaria is old of age and he has already begun his retirement, so he (pope shenouda III) has no control over what fr. zakaria does...he obviously isnt talking about retirement of priesthood...hes speaking about retirement in general, how fr.zakaria is too old to be accusing him of such matters

    yea so if you guys are interested, here's the link to his website: http://www.islam-christianity.net/

    I urge you guys to check out his site...its full of ex-muslims' testimonials and it has interviews with fr.zakaria himself....and if you guys dont understand arabic, dont worry, you can select the english version on the top left corner ;)

    Take care, NOP
  • its amazing (no rudeness) but wat i herd dat dey said dat he is excommunicated from the coptic church? does any 1 no anythin about it?
  • plz do not get me rong, i have full respect for fr.zakria but i belive the following is true:

    * fr.zakria did evangelize in egypt but then was asked to leave the country because of his attack on islam and ofcourse his influence on converting some to christianity.

    * he went to Australia den later moved to the USA were he is living at the moment evangelizing and expressing his views on islam in comparison to christianity.

    * His Holliness Pope Shenouda III did not state that fr.zakria is in his retirment years or that he cannot control him but his holliness stated that his practices are outside the orthodox doctoine, so it maybe that fr.zakria was further ousted or excomunicated from the orthodox faith as a consequence.

    * One time a certain bishop was asked about this issue of Fr.Zakria, his reply was that christianity(specificaly orthodox) is a religion that does not go out nd compare other religions to it(criticizing it) in order to gain popularity and converts, but it is a religion that prides itself on showing others the way of christians through the behavior displayed day in and day out. This hence is the core reason that attracts others to the christian faith.

    forgive me if i have offended anyone in my reply.
    thnx
  • Dear friends
    Greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ
    I just wanted to add that before we listen to any speaker we should look deep into his ministry...What is he promoting or what is he after?
    Fr. Zachariah is in the United States and preaches harsh words against those of the muslim faith. Our church has been persecuted for many years. But the gates of hell has not and will not prevail. The way we should reach out to others is through our actions and not through bashing other religions. The Pope has been persecuted more than Fr. Zacharia yet we don't see him complaining because like St. Paul the apostle he looked at every persecution as a crown in heaven. Remember the words of our Lord when he says "you will know them by their fruit"
  • minam05 fr. zakaria isnt trying to be the culprit....if you check out his website, he says that he loves muslims dearly and he's showing them the way to Christ (the way to Salvation)...if aything, i actually feel he's doing a wonderful job...in fact, i wish all christians can have as much faith as he has. He isnt afraid of being improsoned (which he has been 3 times already) nor is he afraid of being excommunicated, nor is he afraid of dying a martyr, because he knows he is "living for Christ" phil 1:21

    Maybe God is using him as a tool in these Muslim's lives....it doesnt seem like his intentions are to bash the muslim religion, rather, he is setting the facts straight because a lot of muslims have claimed and believed false ideas about our faith; hes just ensuring they know the truth

    everyone is entitiled to their own opinion...so feel free to add on to what i've said or argue my points, Take care
  • so is the priest coptic or not?
  • Yes, Fr. Zacharia is Coptic.
  • No he is not
    He was excommunicated and left Egypt...Now he is wearing out attire and he's working for the protestant church...he came to our city and all the protestants went to hear him and some priests in Canada refused to put up any advertisements about him or his sermons
  • so how come it was in the elkeraza that his holiness saw father zakaria? they seaid in the caption "coptic priest father zakaria botrous with his holiness pope shenouda III"
  • Copts need to wake up!!!!!
    Father Zakaria is a great man. He is telling the truth about Islam. He is not bashing Islam or anything else. He has the courage to tell the truth about Islam and Christianity and not to live in the fear and in the coptic paranoia. This truth will open the eyes of the Muslims and even some Christian that we do not believe in the same God. He preaches like Elijah did, that there is God and thre is Baal and people has to choose, bacause not all gods are the same and there is only one God Jesus Christ. Islam is twisting the truth about Jesus, the bible and our faith and the truth need to Cleared.
  • I agree with kimi,
    but the pope didnt excomunicate him, i think he just "dethroned him" or made him not a presit anymore.
    Either way, im sure H.H. believes in what he says, but he doesnt want any more troubles with muslims, so he is in a way apeasing them through this.

    -Peter
  • From what I have heard, Fr. Zakaria is not excommunicated and has his full priestly rank in the Coptic Church... He was only forced to leave Egypt, because of persecution. He is indeed a great man with a special calling to preach to Muslims. He is doing the work of an evangelist, and many Muslims are turning to Christ.
  • Yea, i really dont see y copts criticize him, but none of the other fiery evangilists b4 him, such as saint paul, and saint peter. He is just following in the footsteps of the apostles, which all clergy are supposed to do!

    -Pete
  • well..if the guy is coptic god bless him and may all his sermons be fruitful to believers as well as non-believers also may god stick by his side at the times of hard ship and trouble


    P.S. KEEP A MARK IN YOUR PRAYERS HE HAS EXAMS COMING UP SOON ;)
  • "not all gods are the same and there is only one God Jesus Christ." - kimi333,,Jesus is not God, he is Son of God, please get that right
  • MasrII

    kimi333,,Jesus is not God, he is Son of God, please get that right



    What are they teaching you at your Church habibi? Jesus is God because He is the Son of God...

    "We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all the ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of One esssence with the Father, through whom all things came to be" - Constantinople-Nicaean Creed

    Peace.
  • thanks for that Iqbaal....


    I'll remind people of Jesus with the Sameria...did he pelt her with harsh words? Although HE is THE GOD....think about it...

    All I know is this....our way of life is based on LOVE....not our perception...no, but giving love in the way OTHER PEOPLE understand it....I mean, this person says he loves muslims but actually infuriated them...


    I'm not saying he's wrong.....his way is just not correct and just not Orthodox enough...even though he's a great man...except in that point....


    People...let me tell you a small story about Anba Makarios and his disicple (is it called like that in English ???)...both were travelling in the desert, when an idol's priest happened to come by....the disiciple, who had overtaken his father, cussed him (not that badly...but called him Satan's aide or something)...so the priest beat him up....

    Anba Makarios passed the same priest, and said to him, "Greetings, oh active one!" WOOOOW....our saint actually took the good side of him and praised the idol worshipper...that struck such a cord with the guy that we also became a monk! A christian one too...(like duuuuh)


    Look.....1Cor 13:8..."Love never fails"...love as PEOPLE understand it....not our own translation....without losing our ideals or our doctorinal or "church" correctness


    In HIS Name,


    RFZ
  • from what i heard he was asked either to stay and serve his church or to stop serving as priest of his church and continue his online preaching... he had teh choice and chose to keep preaching ... this way the pope is not at fault with the muslims since he cannot make him do anything... i think the pope is extremely happy with him... and until now i have never heard of thise whole excommunication business, i doubt it happened...
  • What would be your idea of loving a Muslim "as they understand it"?

    Fr. Zakaria has put his life in danger for the sake of bringing Christ to Muslims (what more love do you want?) Also, what is unorthodox about what he is saying or doing? Our orthodox fathers were very bold in proclaiming their faith and telling the truth, even when it caused them to suffer. The Lord Christ preached the truth, and it infuriated the Jews. Did He not love them, because he said things that offended them? Most will be infuriated by the truth of the Gospel, but some will respond positively and accept Christ... The proof of his love, is that many Muslims, in fact, have accepted Christ because of his preaching... Nobody would listen to someone who hated them or was perceived as hating them.

    I liked the story about St. Macarious. But the Holy Spirit worked in him to say the appropriate words that would touch the heart of that priest. He is also working in Fr. Zakaria to touch many Muslim hearts. He is proclaiming the truth about their faith. He is not attacking individuals.
  • Mazza: F. Zakaria speaks in the name of Christianity, so it's either his actions and words attain to that, or they don't...and I'm not spreading rumors and would not dare talk about an abouna that way...read the rest of this post and look at his website...


    gbibawy: MORE muslims are infuriated from him than believe him, and that's not the way of our fathers, who tried to bring out the good side in everybody and to show the beautifullness of our way of life....like St. Athanasios, who tried to truly and lovingly bring back the heretics of his age...not harshly...he couldn't, but that wasn't his fault...

    u know why they're mad...'cuz he slandering their prophet, even if in truth...he's challenging them too harshly, as if daring them...u can't just come and bring down their main pillar and say come to us....man, where are people's pride? U have to take that into account...even our Lord Jesus did!! (The Sameria, remember?)



    In HIS Name,


    Rami Fouad Zachari
  • you do have a point but not fully...

    look at st Athanasius and st Cyril and st Dioscorus...they were considerate but the truth was the truth and when others tried to go around it they were striaght up... why else do you think st Diosocorus was hated. he wouldnt budge at all...sometimes you have to be firm and straight up in how you deal with them... the truth is the truth... its just the way you present it... if someone asked something about the prophet you basically have to let him know he is wrong... the muslims get pissed off very easily at any attack of their faith... so its not really about him preaching in a wrong way
  • True...but should we talk to them so as to see who's right and who's wrong? Are we in a philosophical debate?

    The afort-mentioned saints were strictly adhered to the truth, whatever pain it caused them. They, however, did not intentionally try to hurt somebody personally because of their heretic faith...you know what I mean? These saints were battling the idea, not the people....

    F. Zakaria does not do that...simple...look, when there's any dialogue between us and them, it's supposed to be based on "Try to uproot the essence of their way of life...but do not slander any of their "revered" (so as to speak) figures!"

    What will we get when we slander their prophet? Do you think satan will let the people think straight? I REALLY don't think so...


    Let me tell you something...Pope Shenouda was once asked "Where is Sheikh Sharawy right now?" (This guy was a famous imam here) What do u think Pope Shenouda replied with? Did he say "In Hell, with all the other Muslims?" Hey that's right isn't it?

    No, he said "I do not know where he is, but I know he is in the arms of his prophet...." You get my point...we need to speak of these matters in a wise maner, no in an inflammatory manner...our fathers used this way...

    You say the Muslims are infuriated from anything we say...I say true, but our goal is TO GET THESE PEOPLE TO CHRIST IN HIS CHURCH...not to prove who's right and who's wrong! If these people are inflamed from the slightest attack...ok, we don't use this way, and pray to God to find a way to make these people love HIM.....


    In HIS Name,


    RFZ
  • Does anyone have the OFFICIAL story of what happened to Fr. Zakaria? Is he still a priest in the Coptic Orthodox Church? Does he still live in Egypt? What is Pope Shenouda's opinion on this? If you know the official story, please verify a source.
  • Fr. zacharia was not excommunicated. as always pope shenouda is carefull in doing something like that and is giving him a lot of time. he is an old man (around 70 i believe). Fr. zacharia however does not pray in our churches. he lives in the U.S.A.

    my opinion:

    Fr. zacharia is not risking his life, (why do u think hes staying in america?) but the life of others. muslims become furious at his ways and take revenge on christians. even though it's the truth, it's not the way it should be said. he is very harsh and you could even say he's making fun of them.

    Even if he neglets this, i consider him protestant. the manner in which he "preaches" and prays is like those who are protestant (if you listened to him you'll know what i mean). He even teaches at their churches when he travels, but never comes to one of ours.
  • Thank you that helped a lot. So he cannot pray in any of our churches?
  • Any other stories or opinions about Fr. Zakaria? Also, did the Pope deport him out of the country or did he go of his own free will?
  • HH Pope Shenouda III warned us many times against both Fr Zakaria and also Fr Makary Younan. In this partial audio file HG Bishop Bishoy frankly answers questions about this subject (in arabic):
    http://www.fileh.com/wise_mike/StTakla/St-Takla-org-HG-Bishoy2.wma

    More about it in this site http://st-takla.org/ (see FAQ pages):
    same FAQ subject with text in arabic:
    http://www.st-takla.com/FAQ-Questions-VS-Answers/04-Questions-Related-to-Spiritual-Issues__Ro7eyat-3amma/021-Resignation-of-Abouna-Father-Zakaria-Botros.html

    Unfortunately, besides the unethical attacking style of Fr Zakaria, it is proven that they both made some Protestant teachings on many occasions; also Fr Zakaria made an alliance with the people providing the channel he is using right now.
  • what is wrong with Fr. Makary Younan?
  • I wrote in this subject many months ago, and I will try to post again what I had said about that subject, I hope it would be the last time for all of us to deal with this issue.

    1- The priest, you mentioned, was suspended by the Holy Synod of the Coptic Church under HH. Pope Shenouda III, for about eight and a half year from 1978 - 1987.

    2- He left Egypt because he can not work as a priest, not because of political pressure as you incorrectly mentioned.

    3- He was also suspended under the reposed HH. Pope Kyrolos V1 for a year.

    4- He converted St. Mark Church in Misr Al-Gadeda to a Pentecostal institution to teach speaking in tongues and receiving the Holy Spirit by praying etc......

    5- He is a protestant disguising as a Coptic priest.
    His teaching is about instant salvation, without the need of Holy Mysteries, Baptism, Holy Communion,...or the need of work with faith for salvation.

    6- He works with the protestant organization to undermine the role of the Coptic Church, which was the reason he was invited by protestant churches abroad. He lived through the support of the Protestant TV show.

    7- As of why he is wearing Coptic priest uniform? I can tell you the fact that the Coptic Church can not enforce, outside of Egypt, on whom can or can not wear the Priestly uniform.

    8- Bishop Souriel in Melbourne, Australia suspended him and the Coptic Church there has many problem with his followers.

    9- He was suspended from Brighton, south England too.

    10- The Dioceses of Los Angeles and New Jersey have lot of problems with this man.

    11- He is not allowed to practise the Eucharist as a priest or tacking confession from people or any thing related to the Coptic Church.

    12- Every Copt who respect and obey the Coptic Church, her teaching, her Holy Synod and HH. should not go to such meeting or listen to his followers.

    As HH. says the blessing will abide on the son of obedience.
    It is not recommended for the Copts to follow his teaching or his broadcast on T.V.
    The Lord Jesus Christ never used a harsh or abusive style in criticizing other religions.

    I may ask the moderator, if he kindly please can lock this thread, it is more than enough what said about that subject.

  • Safaa, what you said was about Fr. Zacharia right, because in my previous post I asked about Fr. Makari Younan.
  • It is the same situation with Makary Younan!!
  • [quote author=Safaa link=topic=2486.msg46707#msg46707 date=1138747775]
    It is the same situation with Makary Younan!!


    This is not true. Fr. Makari Younan is not suspended at all from the Church.  In fact, he's just healed someone blind last week. It was on national TV. He's still practicing, and he's still in Egypt.

    As for Fr. Zakaria Boutros, how did he convert a Coptic Church to a "pentecostal" institution??

    My friends used to go to his Church, and no one had any problems with him. On the contrary, the people there loved him. Had he been pentecostal in his praying style, they'd have not stood for it.



  • Fr. Zakaraia is a hero and loved amongst many Copts. There is NOTHING wrong with speaking the truth. Wasnt it H.H. who mounted a campaign against Matthew the poor? Was it not St. John Chrysostom who destroyed the temple of artemis, rather leveled it completely and it was never rebuilt. I cannot name the saints who have several writings with the beginning title of "Against...." Fr. Zakaraia is well within Orthodox doctrine doing what he is doing. I dont know how his teachings could be considered non-Orthodox LOL, its absurd.
  • seriously, you guys are sounding like muslims right now spreading rumors about how Fr. Zakari is excumminicated. How about you try to go to Egypt convert a bunch of Muslims and stay in the country for more than a year, yet an even more challenging one, staying alive for more than a year. Don't start talking lies about this holy man. Please research before you post contradicting material.
  • I dont think he is excommunicated, I actually do not know for sure. But he was sent into exile by the Pope, that I do know. In his book though he does mention how "certain people" tried to silence him.
  • Not the biggest fan of Abouna Zakaria, but I just wanted to say that there is no such thing as "indirect excommunication." That is made up philosophy that does little more than oppress. And yes, many have resigned the priesthood (pastoral responsibilities.) Fr. Antonios Amin did so at the end of his life due to age. Fr. Micheal Robinson, and Fr. Martin Lee of the British Orthodox church have also resigned from pastoral responsibilities. All these off the very top of my head. So yes, priests may retire, and it does not "imply excommunication." What kind of ecclesiology is this lol

    I don't know what the problem with hating Islam and loving Muslims is. Islam is false. If it is false, it is in contradiction to the truth (Christ.) And as Christians we vehemently oppose, and hate all things which reject Christ as a liar! Can you love a philosophy that does not give God his due glory? I cannot, nor should I. Thus I hate Islam with the burning hot intesntiy of a thousand suns. As for Muslims, I love them as victims of a false belief. This is not to defend Fr. Zakaria (since I dislike his theology very much), but to say that if the only reason you don't like him is his lack of political correctness, then you need to re-analyze. Christ was politically incorrect, and I worship Him. Muslims can set the world in flames regardless. Shall we then stop preaching the gospel? What do you say about the Apostle Mark who destroyed Idols? Quite the politically incorrect man who had no care about "living in harmony" with heathen beliefs. 

    No-one writes their own biography? I guess you've never heard of the term "autobiography" before lol. Many people do that. Not because they think they are great, but because they feel God has done great things for them and they want to glorify him. 

    Still, he is not an Orthodox man. If he were to be excommunicated, I would support it, but it would require a fair trial. His teachings are wack and his ethos is unchristian. But his philosophy of hating the filth and disgust of the Islamic "faith" is justified.

    Ray
  • @coptsabroad...you need to take it easy a little. You are being defensive without being, in any way, constructive to help your argument. It also sounds that you have some 'inside information' that no one else has...yey--doesn't every egyptian out there. The fact that an email called 'copticleaks' exists and you referred to it (being yourself or a group of people) is just absurd in my opinion (thinking that it's like wiki-leaks but the coptic verison--lol). Like, as Christians, we are waiting for other humans to put our trust into other than God and those He represent Him on earth of clergymen.

    So let me say this, WE are going to stop talking about this Abouna Zakaria issue and all the 'politics' around it. You are welcomed to maybe get a vid or a sermon of his about theology and doctrine and speak against--this way it'll be part of comparative theology. But no more news about the person.
  • To be honest, it's ironic that people can have so much hatred-morphed judgment about people and still think they are validated since they have a lot of support from others. This is incorrect. Maybe Abouna has problems in his interpretations or contemplations or doctrines or theology, but that does not entitle anybody to display such hate to him...Christ never taught us that. Mahatma Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians." Why? Because of Christians who don't act like their Christ...which is precisely what has been going on throughout this whole thread.
  • Part 1

    p,
    While I understand what you meant by using Gandhi as an example of how Christians should behave, he is by far the worse example. Using Gandhi as an example of Christian behavior is like using Judas Iscariot as an example of Christian loyalty.

    Gandhi was a political, theological and social anarchist. By definition, an anarchist is one who opposes and wants to destroy any form of hierarchy. What Gandhi failed to recognize is that Christ is by His essence a high priest. Remember, the Greek word for priest is "iereus" which comes from the same root word, -iero, for hierarchy. A priest is a hierarch. Gandhi was completely against Christian hierarchy.

    The problem with Gandhi is that he saw Christ as a person who preached some sort of "kumbaya" peace. As long as the people lived in a kumbaya state, any Roman, ecclesiastical, and hierarchal overseer had no power. (This, by the way, is the identical motive behind the Protestant Reformation). Gandhi failed to see Christ as high priest of humanity and Lord over all angels and creation. God's very identity is hierarchal in nature. What Christ is and what Christ taught Christians and what Ghandi failed to see was not a peace-loving, anti-war figure, opposed to a hierarchal system, who taught his followers to simply to turn their cheeks in some sort of pseudo-pacifism. Christ taught his followers love, not pacifism. He taught to actively remove the leaven of the Pharisees (by the power of the Spirit). He taught his followers to reject any city or town that does not accept you and it will be eternal judgment for them. He taught his followers to follow their rulers and pray for them (1 Peter 2:13-17), not fight for anarchy.

    Also keep in mind, Gandhi like modern Islamists, associated the actions of a political body to Christianity. For Gandhi, British political oppression was a direct progeny of Christian behavior. Christians who oppress do not follow Christ. What he failed to see was the British government acted independently of Christian morals and doctrine. He blamed 19th century Christianity for Indian suppression. This is no different than the Islamists who blamed the Coptic Church for the removal of Morsi. 

  • Part 2

    For the record, RO didn't say he hated Abouna Zakariya. No one did. RO said he hates Islam the religion, not Muslims the people. People responded that hating a person or a religion is not Christian. Ironically, the Scriptures suggest the opposite. Acts 13:22 says, "He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’ " From this we infer that David followed God's own heart. David also writes in Psalm 119:113, "I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law." Here David says he hates double-minded people who oppose God's law. This is in fact another way of saying, we should hate "politically correct Christians who endorse a false religion". Moses writes in Deuteronomy 7:26, "Nor shall you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be doomed to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is an accursed thing." "Utterly abhor it" is completely synonymous with "hate it". Read Deuteronomy 13. God says, not only should you hate "A prophet or a dreamer of dreams" (sounds like Mohammed so far), "of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’" (the central claim of all false religions, including Islam)..."that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst." The underlined part is the core message of the story. Now in our age, we can't put people to death, nor do we have the authority to put followers of that "prophet or dreamer of dreams" to death; not because it is politically incorrect and illegal to commit murder - but because God said so in Matthew 26:52 and Matthew 22:21.  This does not preclude that we have to convict ourselves of sin for hating people who deliberately attack Christianity. 

    I personally prefer a "politically correct" approach at first. When that fails (and it often does), I see nothing wrong with hating Islam or Muslims who attack Christianity and attack the Truth. This also doesn't mean I am going to go out and attack Islam unless God instructs me, as He instructed the Moses, Joshua, David, Judas Maccabeus and the Israelites to destroy Sihon, Og and all kings who endorsed evil. If hating Islam or any other false doctrine that turns God's children away from God is unjustifiable and sinful, then all of these Biblical figures are condemned. This doesn't mean David and other biblical figures were infallible like God. It means, like Gandhi, our understanding of Christianity and God is skewed by the current political and theological milieu. 
  • Agreed, as usual with Remnkemi Chrysostomos!

    Also, to whoever wishes to even posit Christ being politically correct, I suggest a read through of Matthew 23. To assume that Christ is politically correct because he is perfect is flawed logic if I've ever seen it. If Christ is perfect, like we agree, that does not follow that he was thus politically correct since then you would have to assume the perfection includes political correctness. Rather, the proper logic dictates that since Christ was perfect (as we agree), and since Christ was not bound by political correctness (Mathew 23 as a single example), then perfection does not, in fact, necessitate political correctness. 

    And like Rem said, why is Ghandi even mentioned here? It seems that people worship a passive humanism more than Christianity itself. I don't much care for Ghandi's view of Christianity and Christian preaching. Ghandi may have been a political mastermind (which I certainly don't agree with) but he is not a theologian, a father, a clergy member, and his words certainly mean less than the dust under his feet when compared to the teachings and ordinance of Jesus our God!

    @coptsabroad, please repost your post. The problem is not with us rejecting your opinion (since your opinion is flawed, baseless, and diametrically opposed to Christian teaching, and historical practice). The problem is with your withdrawal from academic discussions and hiding behind a boldfaced and underlined smug comment. 

    As a side note, you list conflict of interest in the removal of your post... What is the conflict of interest? LOL. Conflict of interest had nothing to do with differing opinions of people. Wiki that phrase. 

    Ray
  • Rem and RO,
    Clearly you both have misunderstood the point of my post...my post was written very simply on purpose...I am not concrete. It was unnecessary that you each wrote lengthy responses which convoluted the context of my post. If you understood my point, then don't twist things out of proportion just because some detail is annoying you.
    In Christ,
    Andrew
  • I know many people who think he's doing a good job and many Copts that see him as a trouble maker.

    I know for a fact that he's not a trouble maker, on the contrary, but he has unwittingly made problems.

    He has united with Protestant groups, who also think of him and his faith as being heretical.

    If I did a survey, I'd say I've met more people opposing him than agreeing with him.
  • Andrew, 

    I;m not sure I misunderstood your post, and I'm not sure we are disagreeing on a minor thing here. I am saying that it is sometimes necessary to be accusatory in our apologetics. This is in an opposite direction to the philosophy you promote by referencing Ghandi. Maybe we can discuss what you see as us convoluting your post, and I will fix my post accordingly. Thanks. 

    Ray

  • Guys,

    I just wish to add one important point here;

    His brother was savagely murdered by Muslim extremists when he was younger.

    Now - what should he do?

    The 3000 America lives who were lost as a result of 9/11 , many of these families have grown to hate Islam also. I think America, after 9/11, has started to hate Islam.

    I think even Muslims have started to hate it.

    But my point is this: he lost his brother because of their religion. He is convicted to do something. Therefore, I cannot judge him.

    But rather than become an enemy with Islamic extremists, where he'd have had the support of other Muslims , he has become the enemy of Islam in general.

    I say this: he was preaching against Islam before 9/11 happened, and it still happened. Our politicians who are atheist are telling us that Islam is a religion of peace.

    There's nothing for anyone to do or say: Islam is being exposed for what it is by those who practice it. The truth comes out in the end, even if you are silent.
  • Ray,
    I disagree though. Christ never taught us to accuse. Christ taught us to rebuke. There's a night and day difference between the two. One is meant almost as an advice but the other is a harsh disapproval. St. Macari the Great would rebuke his monks when he felt they were being vain, he wouldn't accuse them. Rebuke is used to reinforce humility while rectifying one and preventing that person from doing the same wrong in the future (this can be found throughout the Bible, as well as in Church history, monks would practice this to keep one another on the right path). Accusation, however, is a backfire, as it makes one proud in himself and confident since he thinks he is at a higher level since he has not committed any similar sin and feels he is in a position worthy of accusing the person he thinks is wrong and does not provide any resolution to the problem...read John 8:1-11. Christ never accused the adulteress: therefore, what position are we in to accuse anybody of anything? "“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord." (Romans 12:9).

    By the way, you will never find a place in the Bible where it justifies accusation. Ever.

    So very simply, my point is to stop accusing/judging because Christ never advocated that. He advocated rebuking, as emulated by monks throughout history and we ought to learn from their example.

    I do not need to explain why I mentioned the Gandhi quote because it held a very simple message consistent with everything I just said.
  • [ REMOVED by Admin - I thought I made clear we won't tolerate these inside info?!]

    We just hope this will end this never ending debate

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Memorial for HH Pope Shenouda

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