As far as I know, and please someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but Greek did play an important part in our Church, but I think in an oecumenical way only. Greek was a popular language at the time, so the essential parts of the mass had to be said in Greek - not Coptic so that everyone could understand.
This applied to the most sacred parts of the mass. (as far as I know).
But.. its not our heritage. Our heritage is NOT language - we are NOT a country, we are a Church. A Christian denomination. A Church never had its own language, otherwise Christ would never given His Apostles the gift of preaching in tongues. He'd have insisted that we all learn ONE language (and that would have been the language of the Church).
The language does not make up the Church. Our heritage is our patrology, our doctrines, our saints, our patriarchs.. Coptic is just a language.
The fact that Coptic is dying out and that Greek is still living, surely that should make u feel a tad bit better?? U know.. its not sooooooo bad - is it?
French is the language of France English is the language of England Dutch is the language of Dutch people lol
But the Coptic language was the language of Egypt at a certain period of time. This was replaced with arabic. Its just a language!! It has no impact on our orthodoxy, our rites. We are independent of language!! What we are not independent of is "meaning". We cannot start to change meaning from one thing to another.. this is wrong. But when we pray in Coptic.. there is NO MEANING. It means nothing to the most of us. Its just greek looking letters that rhymn very well when sung at a very high tempo.
Greek is definitely part of our heritage! You can't say that after 2000 years of praying in Greek in the Liturgy that it is not part of our heritage- that's just ludicrous. And the use of Greek is profound to me- that I am praying in the words of the Church Father- singing as they sang, using their holy words and offering it to God. We are in communion with all the saints in Heaven- we are a Universal Church. During the Liturgy we are participating with the heavenly choir and the saints. The saints are our history- our heritage. Many of our Popes did not know Coptic, and only spoke in Greek. Most of our Coptic Theologians spoke in Greek. I will reiterate- Greek is part of our heritage.
Yes.. i know that Greek plays a part in our mass, and in our Christian life. Sure! but its just a language. Our usage of heritage are different.
Our heritage, as far as I'm concerned, as our doctrine. Not language. No one taught me greek since I was baptised. If it was that essential I'd have learnt it.
Clay - how important is language?? For goodness sake - look : of course our father spoke in a language. Greek was then as English is now. Its like the "official" language. U see??? Its just that : a language.
As far as I know, and please someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but Greek did play an important part in our Church, but I think in an oecumenical way only. Greek was a popular language at the time, so the essential parts of the mass had to be said in Greek - not Coptic so that everyone could understand.
This applied to the most sacred parts of the mass. (as far as I know).
But.. its not our heritage. Our heritage is NOT language - we are NOT a country, we are a Church. A Christian denomination. A Church never had its own language, otherwise Christ would never given His Apostles the gift of preaching in tongues. He'd have insisted that we all learn ONE language (and that would have been the language of the Church).
The language does not make up the Church. Our heritage is our patrology, our doctrines, our saints, our patriarchs.. Coptic is just a language.
The fact that Coptic is dying out and that Greek is still living, surely that should make u feel a tad bit better?? U know.. its not sooooooo bad - is it?
French is the language of France English is the language of England Dutch is the language of Dutch people lol
But the Coptic language was the language of Egypt at a certain period of time. This was replaced with arabic. Its just a language!! It has no impact on our orthodoxy, our rites. We are independent of language!! What we are not independent of is "meaning". We cannot start to change meaning from one thing to another.. this is wrong. But when we pray in Coptic.. there is NO MEANING. It means nothing to the most of us. Its just greek looking letters that rhymn very well when sung at a very high tempo.
you can't deny the important usage of Greek in our Coptic Language. our Coptic language is literally defined as being Hieroglyphs, into Greek letters. That’s how much greek was important. The reason it’s so much involved in our heritage is for the same reason that you are arguing right now, which is the understanding of the people….where most of the response that are directed to the people where in greek because, again, greek was the dominating language at that time….same as English now. Look at you vassilios, you say you don’t know English as good but for some reason I always doubted that…..
also why is this a huge deal.......every one, WORRY ABOUT YOUR SALVATION. If you were giving this responsbilty of "Keeping Coptic" than ok....you can worry about this. but what ever we say here is just for understadning. only to understand and not do anything about it because NO ONE HERE is in charge of that.
The fact that I'm worried about my salvation i'm raising my concern. Being baptised isn't enough. U have to now grow spiritually. Reading the words of the Agpeya is probably the ONLY resource I find in the Church that I can participate in. ANd when I say "read" I mean in English or French.. NOT in Greek nor Coptic.
OK.. I dare u to read the Agpeya in Coptic when abouna calls u to read?? I bet NO ONE will do that! Go and read it in Greek if u want. For me... i don't like the idea of praying in a language that I DO NOT understand. Unfortunately, to understand it, it seems that I have to learn another language, when the languages i have already should be good enough!!!
Im NOT denying the importance of Greek in our language. Its important in EVERY aspect... but not for daily prayer. Not for my daily prayer.
Look: For example: The Catholic Church in England/London have hymns and prayers in English that are COMPLETELY different to the Catholic Church in France, who have altogether OTHER hymns that are different, but made for the French language, and likewise for the Roman Catholic Church in Spain and Egypt.
This makes sense to me. The RC doesn't say: Look, we are orginally latin, let's make all our hymns latin. There are certain churches that still hold onto latin masses (100%). But they are the minority. All I'm saying is that I want to pray, not waste prayer time in singing stuff that I do not understand. Not EVERYTHing is translated also...
Only a few things.
OK. Mina.. Look. Imagine u walked into Church, and u heard a verse in the tasbeha in Coptic, would u straight away understand it? If so,great. I'm not at that level in Coptic. And many MANY others are not either. We just want to pray. Period.
The fact that I'm worried about my salvation i'm raising my concern. Being baptised isn't enough. U have to now grow spiritually. Reading the words of the Agpeya is probably the ONLY resource I find in the Church that I can participate in. ANd when I say "read" I mean in English or French.. NOT in Greek nor Coptic. OK.. I dare u to read the Agpeya in Coptic when abouna calls u to read?? I bet NO ONE will do that! Go and read it in Greek if u want. For me... i don't like the idea of praying in a language that I DO NOT understand. Unfortunately, to understand it, it seems that I have to learn another language, when the languages i have already should be good enough!!! Im NOT denying the importance of Greek in our language. Its important in EVERY aspect... but not for daily prayer. Not for my daily prayer.
no one would do that except if all new coptic.
i love how you said "my daily prayer". it's your daily prayer not anyone else but you. God doesn't tell you have to speak and pray in coptic in you own daily prayer on your own time. does He??!!
This is not like Islam where you have read the quran in arabic where when you wont, it's a sin......even thoo those translations of the quran are never fully true (for example translating Isalm = submission) maybe some can correct me on that.
it was proven before more then once why the usage of Coptic/Greek is still used today. First i will have Coptic and Greek in the same category since they were both the langauges of the source. Trying to prrov that wrong is just unintelligent becasue it's just not easy.
Look: For example: The Catholic Church in England/London have hymns and prayers in English that are COMPLETELY different to the Catholic Church in France, who have altogether OTHER hymns that are different, but made for the French language, and likewise for the Roman Catholic Church in Spain and Egypt.
I don't see your point. and using the Catholic church as an example is not a good idea either. your telling that every church is just on her own. that's it. So if am a catholic and my church we destroyed in an earthquake, your telling i now can't [b]pray, using the sense of prayer you are using Vassilios??!!! Yes i can take communion in many other churchs but everything would just be diffrent.....
This makes sense to me. The RC doesn't say: Look, we are orginally latin, let's make all our hymns latin. There are certain churches that still hold onto latin masses (100%). But they are the minority. All I'm saying is that I want to pray, not waste prayer time in singing stuff that I do not understand. Not EVERYTHing is translated also...
Only a few things.
are you kidding me. You are tellingg me not everything is translated. with all do respact Vassilios, you'll NEVER fully see everything...lol...you are refering to small things that you have not seen. You speak english, what missing...things that not muuch people would use in the current time.....including you Vas, which wouldn't hurt your daily prayers.
OK. Mina.. Look. Imagine u walked into Church, and u heard a verse in the tasbeha in Coptic, would u straight away understand it? If so,great. I'm not at that level in Coptic. And many MANY others are not either. We just want to pray. Period.
that "Period." on the end means nothing. that is your own opinion which can never be "Period." ALLL the people who don't bother with tasbeha say what you just said. you are not saying anything new here. if you are not at that level of coptic yet, then STOP wasting your time here on wirtting essays about this and actuly go do somthing for yourself and maybe for others....
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22
The Coptic Church has been around for 2,000 + Years. Its not called the Coptic ORTHODOX Church for nothing, in short - we accept and follow whats been given to us - WITHOUT CHANGE.
For example I learned the Saturday Tasbeha by listening to it over and over and over again.. in my car ... and then actually going to Tasbeha in the church Saturday night.. again following my "mental cd player" of what I memorized - then reading the English version of them... The two started to balance out and add up to something I understood as a whole.
I for one do not get into the word for word dissection of what I'm looking at in Coptic - but I can follow along and get the meaning or the idea of what I'm reading. If I choose to sing/chant along in the Church - then I'm not a parrot..I know what it is that I'm saying.
I choose not to get into the particulars of what each word means and why and how its used here vs there... doesn't concern me - PERSONALLY.
I'd rather focus on what the meaning of what it is that im saying or listening to... for example: the popular and very often used processional hymn of Epouro (O King of Peace)... I don't care what each word is... I know that when im singing Epouro... I'm singing O KING OF PEACE BESTOW UPON US YOUR PEACE... and so on...
But again that's me... and it works for me- its what gives me peace during the liturgy.
Vass - i think you should stop focusing on the LANGUAGE itself and more on the meaning...
You could ask yourself ... WHAT AM I SAYING in Coptic?
ANS: I dont know what im saying
Well then if I REALLY REALLY want to know - then let me find out what it is im saying.. then make the 1 to 1 correlation.
Whatever works for you - Coptic - English or Coptic - French or Coptic- <LANGUAGE>
Oh and on a side note, the story about the monk and the dirty basket - which you took literally and said 'i'd tell the monk to just wash it' (not quoting - just paraphrasing) is intended for you to see :
1. Obedience - the servant obeyed the monk and kept going to get water with a basket - knowing very well its not going to hold water.
2. The basket is a symbol of US - the people - the water is a Symbol of the Church or of God or even of the Word of God - the bible.
3. The dirt is the bad stuff we do or pick up as we 'walk thru life'
So putting 1, 2 and 3 together -- we should get that the purpose of the story is to say that as we keep going to Church, reading the bible, etc... each time we go or read the bible it washes us a little. Next time we do this, it washes us a little more and we're a little more cleaner then before and so on...
I hope you get the point of all this and do not continue to go on with this topic... because quite honestly, after reading the 1st full page and part of the 2nd...skimming the 3rd - I have a headache from you.... so I'm giving you the chance to end this on your own nicely.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92274#msg92274 date=1215185646] Clay - how important is language?? For goodness sake - look : of course our father spoke in a language. Greek was then as English is now. Its like the "official" language. U see??? Its just that : a language.
Language is formidably important. Language is outward expression- a way of being a person. It has a character and a presence. It has rhythm, it has energy, it has veracity. Language is perhaps the greatest instrument of man. It is so powerful that wars have been started from it. The fiercest wars are usually of language. The greatest wounds are from language. The Tower of Babel was a result of a unified language. It was so powerful and destructive that God changed the tongues of a multitude to disperse them. Language brings people together- and it disperses them away like little else could. The limits of language is the limits of thinking and conception. Language, is the communication tool that needs most work- and only few master. Language is how the Gospel is preached to us. Language is the tool that we pray to God. We learn language just to express our hearts to God. God uses language to bring us to a better understanding of Him. The "sound doctrine" handed fromt he Apostles can only be really communicated in the tongue in which they spoke- and what language was that? Language is of immenent important- and its importance surpasses what words can envisage. Ironic?
Greek and Coptic both have a huge role in our Church. Coptic unifies us with our brothers and sisters in the Church of Alexandria. In the Creed we say, "We believe in one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of God". Greek is a visible symbol of our unity with all the Orthodox Churches. Whether Armenian, Ethiopian or Coptic, Greek has a presence. I am not saying that we should use these languages despite us not understanding it- but if we are going to talk about heritage- do not minimize Greek and Coptic or the role of language in the Church.
The Coptic Church has been around for 2,000 + Years. Its not called the Coptic ORTHODOX Church for nothing, in short - we accept and follow whats been given to us - WITHOUT CHANGE.
I'm more interesting in focusing on this problem than changing the Church. On the contrary Maged, to ENSURE the CoC is still around for longer - I'm trying to get over this issue. If its not really dealt with, it will be a matter of finding another Church. In all seriousness. This issue is really stopping me from actually worshipping God.
For example I learned the Saturday Tasbeha by listening to it over and over and over again.. in my car ... and then actually going to Tasbeha in the church Saturday night.. again following my "mental cd player" of what I memorized - then reading the English version of them...
Well done! Now you are getting closer to seeing what the problem is.
That's how most of used to learn Coptic hymns (with the exception of Ophadece) & the tasbeha. I got CD's played them over and over. I attended the Saturday Night prayers, and i practiced what I had memorised. But theere was/is always a period where u are memorising Coptic, and then associating it with the meaning. U agree? I do that.
I know that Eporo is the King of Peace. Sure! But what happens when they sing/ or I sing, the 3rd verse? Then, I have to concentrate on what Entefesmoro means. Sure, I know how to say it.. but, I may forget what it means. Do u understand what I am saying Maged? It means that there will be a point where I've just sang something where I've either forgotten its meaning, yet I know the Coptic SO well, I'll just say it anyway, and hopefully go over the meaning later, or basically, I can read Coptic well, and I just don't know its meaning, and then I can go back and read about it.
With ONE verse, or TWO verses its OK. With entire tasbeha's in the Coptic language, then it becomes a problem. Then I find myself now just standing silent, NOT praying a word and just READING the translation of what I've just sung!
The two started to balance out and add up to something I understood as a whole.
Me too. The two do make sense. The meaning IS beautiful. But when you are singing in Coptic, because we didn't learn the Coptic words as a language, its easy to forget the meaning of each verse.
Maged, look, before you respond to this email, try this small experiment at home:
Open the Upsulmodaya.. ok.. go to say, Afti-emeponoff.. ok?? Now, pick a verse RIGHT in the middle in Coptic.. ANY verse (except Shufsh esop empi-eh-heoo) - and without reading the arabic NOR english translation, do u know the meaning of the verse u have just read?
I for one do not get into the word for word dissection of what I'm looking at in Coptic - but I can follow along and get the meaning or the idea of what I'm reading. If I choose to sing/chant along in the Church - then I'm not a parrot..I know what it is that I'm saying.
Maged, we are similar here. I also know what I am saying. Simply because I bothered to read the meaning before singing. But whilst singing.. whilst im in the process of singing something that I just learnt the meaning of... its so EASY to forget the meaning of a verse WHILST u are singing in Coptic. At that moment, I feel I'm just singing.. i have to just stop.. and read the translation. A typical example is half way through Teo-Enhikanos.. u know, where they say "Aven tikovotos... hijen tipartenos.. etc".. the meaning is superb.. Nothing will compare; but if I do not read the English, I'll be honest with u, I feel I'm just reciting the voice I heard on the CD. That's all. I can take a look at the meaning - quickly, and then go back to hymn.. sure! But by taking a look at the meaning - i'm no longer singing.. i'm reading (the translation).
--> Which is still OK.. But it bothers me that I was singing some verses that I didnt know the meaning of... and then if I let it go on, its the entire tasbeha - with the exception of The Magma3a El Qedesseen.
Now, the Magma3a il Qedeseen, this HAS to be done in Coptic. lol Its the easiest thing to do in Coptic, and we KNOW we do not need the translation to understand it. Its basic common sense.
But.. there are so many things outside the Magma3a Il Edeseen that is not so obvious, and i know it off by heart in Coptic, yet I forget the meaning in English. Even Arepsalin. The ONLY verses I know off by heart in arepsalin are the 1st, 2nd and Evnoti Panoti Ego.. (i know what they mean when I sing them) - the rest, I don't.
Vass - i think you should stop focusing on the LANGUAGE itself and more on the meaning...
Maged, i don't think u were reading what this thread is about. Its not at all about focusing on the meaning! Its whilst we are focusing on the meaning, we are not praying with our brother deacons in Coptic. We are TRULY focusing on the meaning. Its impossible to sing Coptic and focus on the meaning at the same time. If I'm concentrating on the meaning, that renders me as an observer of the act of worshipping, not a participator. I will be silent during the hymns that I know so well (i.e. That i've memorised from CD's), and just read their meaning instead of actually singing.
You could ask yourself ... WHAT AM I SAYING in Coptic?
ANS: I dont know what im saying
Well then if I REALLY REALLY want to know - then let me find out what it is im saying.. then make the 1 to 1 correlation.
That 1:1 correlation, if it happens during the praise itself, then you have stopped singing altogether, and are now in the process of making a correlation between the hymn and its meaning. As JYDEACON said, its perhaps important to make that correlation BEFORE the hymn, but because we learnt Coptic your way (i.e. by memorising CD's and not really trying to understand the grammer/vocularly of each word), its so easy to forget the meaning of a verse in Coptic that you are singing half-way through the tasbeha.
Whatever works for you - Coptic - English or Coptic - French or Coptic- <LANGUAGE>
Yes. English or French works fine. So, are u suggesting for me to drop Coptic?
I hope you get the point of all this and do not continue to go on with this topic...
Did u understand the problem then?
because quite honestly, after reading the 1st full page and part of the 2nd...skimming the 3rd - I have a headache from you....
:( - I don't know what to tell u Maged. If I said that I was seriously contemplating going to the Catholic Church because of this, I think such a response would definately push me in that direction. Why bother asking for???
As for getting a headache, I know patience is a virtue. I just assumed being an admin of a CoC Website that you'd have some spiritual gifts to help u. I'll never assume that again. But why bother with this thread if its boring for u??
Maged, I'm living in a country where there are no spiritual Coptic prayer groups/activities/sunday schoool/meetings NOTHING. Tasbeha.org is all I have to ask anything and hopefully get a response.
so I'm giving you the chance to end this on your own nicely.
Maged, this is extremely antagonistic for no reason whatsoever. Really. Perhaps I should have placed this thread under "PERSONAL PROBLEMS" but, its a personal problem that involves Coptic.
U can lock this thread if u wish. I'm tired of explaining myself to someone who really doesn't even care.
I am sorry Maged, but I will have to defend my brother Vas here. Believe me, I also sometimes get tired of his seemingly endless ramblings, but he has legitimate concerns in this thread, and the way you dismissed them (at least in my view) was unwarranted- especially since your post had some rather irrelevant things in my view (I will try to explain why I believe so, so please bear with me), and since you admitted that you have not really read the material.
The Coptic Church has changed dramatically, Maged. The faith has not, but the practices have changed remarkably. Fasts have increased progressively through the centuries, the Liturgy has become more and more developed, Creeds have solidified what the Church has taught in not so many words, Monastic orders and their practices have allows evolved, and other types of worship practices have changed.
For instance, pews were not in Churches until the 19th century. There used to be a dividing wall between men and women. the iconstansis came about in the third century, I believe. The way our Pope is chosen has changed, with requirements of Monastic orders. Our ranks of deacons have changed over the years, as well as their roles and responsibilities.
QT is talking about a practice in the Church, not something that is manifestly linked with faith. I tried establishing the link with faith and our use of language as symbols of unity with our ancestors, and the Universal Church. You didn't make that point, so I think what you have raised only slightly contributes to getting a healthy perspective.
I hope I am not guilty of also dismissing your valuable insight.
I for one do not get into the word for word dissection of what I'm looking at in Coptic - but I can follow along and get the meaning or the idea of what I'm reading. If I choose to sing/chant along in the Church - then I'm not a parrot..I know what it is that I'm saying.
Maged, we are similar here. I also know what I am saying. Simply because I bothered to read the meaning before singing. But whilst singing.. whilst im in the process of singing something that I just learnt the meaning of... its so EASY to forget the meaning of a verse WHILST u are singing in Coptic. At that moment, I feel I'm just singing.. i have to just stop.. and read the translation. A typical example is half way through Teo-Enhikanos.. u know, where they say "Aven tikovotos... hijen tipartenos.. etc".. the meaning is superb.. Nothing will compare; but if I do not read the English, I'll be honest with u, I feel I'm just reciting the voice I heard on the CD. That's all. I can take a look at the meaning - quickly, and then go back to hymn.. sure! But by taking a look at the meaning - i'm no longer singing.. i'm reading (the translation).
--> Which is still OK.. But it bothers me that I was singing some verses that I didnt know the meaning of... and then if I let it go on, its the entire tasbeha - with the exception of The Magma3a El Qedesseen.
Hmmm. vas, you get this problem too when you are chanting in your mother tongue. In any language, even the one most familiar, if you do not actively meditate on the words, it is very easy to forget the meaning of a verse.
However, chanting with the Angels and praising God with your heart (remember, it is the Holy Spirit who resides in our heart who utters the prayers for us to the Father) that will bring the joy of the tune to your heart. Admittedly, it is better to know what you are saying, at least generally.
Also, as with praying for the Agbeya, it is a process: we are being trained to speak in a spiritual language: to speak with the words of St. David. With the hymns in Coptic and in Greek, we are speaking word-for-word the words of the Church Fathers who composed the hymn! It is authentic, and that should really move our hearts.
Hmmm. vas, you get this problem too when you are chanting in your mother tongue. In any language, even the one most familiar, if you do not actively meditate on the words, it is very easy to forget the meaning of a verse.
How? Never!! U'd have to be really fast asleep to not listen or understand to what you are singing. There has to be at least SOME level of concentration (minimal).
Now.. look at this (all Coptic Lovers):
COPTIC LANGUAGE HAS A BRILLIANT ROLE FOR OUR CHURCH:
Where? For our children. Yep! for babies. Neknai O Panoti, Agios Otheos, all these hymns are brilliant lullabies to sing for kids. In fact, so is Teoi Enhikanos. And it will definately help them when they get older to know the tune well and spend MORE time memorising the MEANING than just singing Coptic.
But i feel that it could dissuade Children, who above a certain age, REALLY need to understand meaning of what they are singing, MORE than just melodies and tunes.
"We cannot pray to God the Father, unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit" - I think this is a verse from the Bible you are referring to. I probably mis-quoted it, but singing in a language where we are not in correlation with the meaning WHILST we are singing is not from the Holy Spirit. Its NOT. Is not the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Understanding and Wisdom?? Is there any understanding in singing a verse that has no meaning to us??? And if we are lucky, we can find out the meaning at the end of our "prayer time" when the tasbeha has finished??
Who is benefitting from the Tasbeha? Us or God??? It is US!! How? What is the tasbeha? Are we not singing the "word" of God, compared to those who "Read" the Word of God (through the Bible)... in the tasbeha, we sing the word of God. Does not the word of God purify us and make us clean??? But what good is this Word if its in a language that is foreign to me, NOR if i do not give its meaning enough time and concentration to actually purify my heart???? You see now the dangers?? Coptic Tasbeha is brilliant, IF U ARE FLUENT IN COPTIC.
In fact, if you understood the meaning of the tasbeha, you've probably covered a large portion of the Bible.
Singing the word of God is good for us, and its importance is paramount. SO PARAMOUNT that it worries me the dangers of not allowing God's word to work in my heart because we get sidetracked with singing in Coptic.. not in a language that we understand that renders us observers of this joy of praising God, rather than active participators in worshipping and allowing the meaning with the tune to work in us.
Who don't you just do the Holy Psalmody in the language that you prefer? Don't discourage those who do it in Coptic...from the way you talk, you make it seem completely and utterly useless.
one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6868.msg92398#msg92398 date=1215461212] Who don't you just do the Holy Psalmody in the language that you prefer? Don't discourage those who do it in Coptic...from the way you talk, you make it seem completely and utterly useless.
Hi Severus,
Yes, of course I would do the Coptic in the language I understand. But if u look CLOSELY at my thread: there was ONE particular subject I wanted to address : What are the dangers of doing it in a language that we do not understand???
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876] one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
Is it hard for you to understand that there is a problem singing in Coptic AND doing the translation in your head at the same time. It means u are not participating in the praise. You see that??
If it was ONE verse, its not a problem. But, if u sing in Coptic for the entire duration of the tasbeha, then it becomes a problem. Add onto this the Holy Mass if its in Coptic also, and then, the concentration, or the time one dedicates to prayer is less. I envy people who learn Coptic as a language, they must benefit tremendously from the entire Coptic Church's liturgy, tasbeha etc. Those of us that learnt Coptic as per "Maged's suggestion" , only learnt it to know the meaning.. not the language. Which means that once we start singing a verse in Coptic, we tend to forget its meaning DURING the singing. WHy can u not appreciate this problem??
My question, if u read it carefully, its to see what the effects are of daily prayer in a language that one doesn't understand???
We dedicate time to God: Sunday, and Saturday during the Tasbeha. Right? How much of that time is spent in REAL PRAYER?? And how much of it was just spent singing things in Coptic because we know the tune/words off by heart?? It is impossible, for the last time, to read a translated text WHILST singing in Coptic.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92404#msg92404 date=1215467974] Hi Severus,
Yes, of course I would do the Coptic in the language I understand. But if u look CLOSELY at my thread: there was ONE particular subject I wanted to address : What are the dangers of doing it in a language that we do not understand???
That's all.
What are they???
And we have clearly answered that. There are tunes set on the language that are best done in that original language. EVEN IN TASBEHA. It’s that easy to understand and accept.
Also the fact that our entire heritage is based on the language, our heritage will be kept by using that language.
It’s good enough that the true tune of our liturgy parts are fading away because of the diversity of languages it’s translated in. I am not saying it’s bad, am just showing that it is in fact changing for those who don’t understand the language.
If I am not mistaken, here in the US, in the southern diocese in particular, HGB Youseff tells his diocese priests to pray liturgies mostly 20% Coptic and 80% English.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92405#msg92405 date=1215468435] [quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876] one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
Is it hard for you to understand that there is a problem singing in Coptic AND doing the translation in your head at the same time. It means u are not participating in the praise. You see that??
If it was ONE verse, its not a problem. But, if u sing in Coptic for the entire duration of the tasbeha, then it becomes a problem. Add onto this the Holy Mass if its in Coptic also, and then, the concentration, or the time one dedicates to prayer is less. I envy people who learn Coptic as a language, they must benefit tremendously from the entire Coptic Church's liturgy, tasbeha etc. Those of us that learnt Coptic as per "Maged's suggestion" , only learnt it to know the meaning.. not the language. Which means that once we start singing a verse in Coptic, we tend to forget its meaning DURING the singing. WHy can u not appreciate this problem??
My question, if u read it carefully, its to see what the effects are of daily prayer in a language that one doesn't understand???
We dedicate time to God: Sunday, and Saturday during the Tasbeha. Right? How much of that time is spent in REAL PRAYER?? And how much of it was just spent singing things in Coptic because we know the tune/words off by heart?? It is impossible, for the last time, to read a translated text WHILST singing in Coptic.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
there are NO DANGERS. The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92405#msg92405 date=1215468435] [quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876] one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
No where in any of my posts did i say that i have them memorized but i said this is what i do before i learn a hymn and what should be done when teaching a hymn. I'm still working on it but i don't have them ALL memorized
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92407#msg92407 date=1215468979] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92405#msg92405 date=1215468435] [quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876] one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
Is it hard for you to understand that there is a problem singing in Coptic AND doing the translation in your head at the same time. It means u are not participating in the praise. You see that??
If it was ONE verse, its not a problem. But, if u sing in Coptic for the entire duration of the tasbeha, then it becomes a problem. Add onto this the Holy Mass if its in Coptic also, and then, the concentration, or the time one dedicates to prayer is less. I envy people who learn Coptic as a language, they must benefit tremendously from the entire Coptic Church's liturgy, tasbeha etc. Those of us that learnt Coptic as per "Maged's suggestion" , only learnt it to know the meaning.. not the language. Which means that once we start singing a verse in Coptic, we tend to forget its meaning DURING the singing. WHy can u not appreciate this problem??
My question, if u read it carefully, its to see what the effects are of daily prayer in a language that one doesn't understand???
We dedicate time to God: Sunday, and Saturday during the Tasbeha. Right? How much of that time is spent in REAL PRAYER?? And how much of it was just spent singing things in Coptic because we know the tune/words off by heart?? It is impossible, for the last time, to read a translated text WHILST singing in Coptic.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
there are NO DANGERS. The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest.
That is completely false. I have met quite a few who have left Church (or come very sporadically) because they felt it irrelevant. When I asked how, they said the use of Coptic and Arabic in the Liturgy and sermon. And they were not willing to travel 50 km (I think 30 something miles) for the next church that uses less of these languages. The fact is that Churches in the diaspora should give priority to the language in that country. That is a danger- but is not going to fixed by doing away with Coptic, because that just enters into another danger- a loss of identity, communion, and spiritual splendor.
Its about love for the church, besdies if they left for arabic then they have major issues, i know for a fact that MOST of my church speaks arabic, so i dunno, maybe it's different over there. We are a COPTIC orthodox church, not arab orthodox, not american orthodoxthis means that i speak coptic i remember where i came from, i remember my own lineage of faith. if they dont see it that way then maybe they were raised different then i was, but i was taught to never forget what came before you, the languages, the people, and the persecution. If you forget one, or start phasing one out you loose the others, St. Athansius the Apostolic wrote his letters in coptic, what use are they now? They are EXTREMELY important. It helps us DEFEND our faith. so if i throw out the original manuscript than the validity of those defenses can be question, then my faith can be questioned, was it the original faith I had before? As for the praises and liturgy.
Have you ever attended a coptic liturgy. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard, especial Nee men epshois. it is soooo beautiful look for a recording of it. And i think for the most part the liturgy can be memorized. As for memorizing tasbeha dunno what you do in your church but in mine we alternate verses coptic and english so every other verse is english, the ones that are coptic what i sometimes do is sing them in english under my breath, you should try it, it might help you out.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92413#msg92413 date=1215478483] No where in any of my posts did i say that i have them memorized but i said this is what i do before i learn a hymn and what should be done when teaching a hymn. I'm still working on it but i don't have them ALL memorized
Hi JY, please then explain to us, or help us understand better how u manage to sing Coptic hymns AND correlate the meaning at the same time? I cannot, for the life of me, read a translation of what I'm saying and sing something in Coptic at the same time.
What do u do? I can perhaps memorise the meaning of the 1st 4 verses of EACH hoss...
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92407#msg92407 date=1215468979] there are NO DANGERS. The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest.
Mina,
That's so untrue.
You know very well there are Coptic Christians that have introduced protestant hymns in our Church simply because they are dettered from Coptic. We've discussed that before.
There are no coptic churches in Paris. There are french coptic couples that suffer because of this as the entire service is either ARabic OR Coptic. Hardly any French. The sermon is definately not in French. So, they travel at least 50 km to attend a mass that they do not understand nor actively participate in
During the mass, we are meant to be praying WITH abouna. We should be saying what he says in our hearts, and praying with him. But we are translating or trying to read a translated text during the mass. Do u not think that many Coptic couples have already left the church for this reason???
I have one final comment or thought: [b] * What is the "official" song for the Qiyama (Resurrection?) - its "YA KOL ASSEFFOUF". isn't it. This is not Coptic. Its a beautiful hymn. Its always sang in Arabic. NEVER coptic. There will be a time when the Coptic Church starts to make the same quality hymns for the language of the Diaspora so that we can pray, finally!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92432#msg92432 date=1215505364] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92413#msg92413 date=1215478483] No where in any of my posts did i say that i have them memorized but i said this is what i do before i learn a hymn and what should be done when teaching a hymn. I'm still working on it but i don't have them ALL memorized
Hi JY, please then explain to us, or help us understand better how u manage to sing Coptic hymns AND correlate the meaning at the same time? I cannot, for the life of me, read a translation of what I'm saying and sing something in Coptic at the same time.
What do u do? I can perhaps memorise the meaning of the 1st 4 verses of EACH hoss...
But that's about it. Any advice is welcome.
I'm actually trying to learn Coptic as a language so when I am actually singing I am thinking about it directly from Coptic. But before I took on this task, I learned the hymn first in english then i would learn it in coptic. Thats why memorizing hymns is so important now more than ever, if you can memorize the hymn and MASTER it then you can truley meditate on its meaning.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92433#msg92433 date=1215506033] [quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92407#msg92407 date=1215468979] there are NO DANGERS. The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest. [/quote
I have one final comment or thought: [b] * What is the "official" song for the Qiyama (Resurrection?) - its "YA KOL ASSEFFOUF". isn't it. This is not Coptic. Its a beautiful hymn. Its always sang in Arabic. NEVER coptic. There will be a time when the Coptic Church starts to make the same quality hymns for the language of the Diaspora so that we can pray, finally!
There is NO official hymn of the Resurrection, all hymns are equal to each other and if you want to get specifically technical, it would be [coptic]<rictoc Anecti[/coptic] Not Ya Kol al Sefoof.
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92419#msg92419 date=1215487543] besdies if they left for arabic then they have major issues,
Yes. I agree here. THere is nothing more beautiful than the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy. If people leave because of language then they have major issues. Very true. However, its not because of language that they will leave. But they will probably find another CoC that doesn't use Coptic to an extent that it becomes hard to pray. That's all.
i know for a fact that MOST of my church speaks arabic, so i dunno, maybe it's different over there. We are a COPTIC orthodox church, not arab orthodox, not american orthodoxthis means that i speak coptic i remember where i came from, i remember my own lineage of faith.
Coptic simply means Egyptian. Doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. Egypt, if you look carefully on any map (or even on your passport), is called the "Arab Republic of Egypt". Now, u may not consider yourself an "arab", but your government does.
This also raises the issue of integration of Copts within Egypt. If Coptic Christians (who are born and raised in Egypt) start denying their national language in favour of Coptic, wouldn't that result in lack of integration? I don't think this is wise. But ask abouna. I just get the feeling that this animosity towards Arab Egypt is a rejection of Islam, rather than an acceptance of your national identity.
if they dont see it that way then maybe they were raised different then i was, but i was taught to never forget what came before you, the languages, the people, and the persecution. If you forget one, or start phasing one out you loose the others, St. Athansius the Apostolic wrote his letters in coptic, what use are they now?
I have NEVER suggested to phase out coptic. EVER. Read all my posts again. I've just focused on the problem of praying in a language which we do not understand.
They are EXTREMELY important. It helps us DEFEND our faith. so if i throw out the original manuscript than the validity of those defenses can be question, then my faith can be questioned, was it the original faith I had before? As for the praises and liturgy.
No. Our faith is beyond language. Look at the British Orthodox Church. Look at the Armenian Orthodox Church. Look at the Syrian Orthodox Church. They are not tied to the Coptic language. They are tied down to the Coptic Faith.
I think the best solution is to have masses that are in the language of the Diaspora that occur often.
Nothing will EVER compare to the Coptic Liturgy. Nothing. It truly is a masterpiece of spiritual excellence that is incomparable to any other liturgy i've ever attended. But what makes it beautiful, for me, is not the Coptic language IN the liturgy. Not at all. Its the Orthodoxy. We say and do things in the mass with so much depth, and meaning. Nothing is haphazard. Its brilliant.
Have you ever attended a coptic liturgy. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard, especial Nee men epshois. it is soooo beautiful look for a recording of it.
Its funny, because u seem to be focusing on the musical aspect of the mass. I have never heard this hymn, but I agree that the Coptic liturgy is beautiful and deep, and I would not change it for the world. But what makes it beautiful for me is the meaning. The spiritual aspect. Not musical.
And i think for the most part the liturgy can be memorized.
Yes. Point taken.. but again, why don't people try to understand my thread. My thread was clear: What are the effects when we pray in a language that is foreign to us? Are we spending time translating the meaning in our heads, or singing the meaning?
As for memorizing tasbeha dunno what you do in your church but in mine we alternate verses coptic and english so every other verse is english, the ones that are coptic what i sometimes do is sing them in english under my breath, you should try it, it might help you out.
As I said before, I tried this, and I was sworn at for doing it in English.
I just wish to summarise and say:
The Coptic language will not die - EVER if you use it for prayer. If its sung in anyway outside the capacity of prayer, then it will die. One deacon, during kiahk sang something in coptic that was very rare. No one had the translation. It was from a book that was in Coptic. The other half was arabic. This particular deacon does not read arabic. He only knows Coptic. We just sat in Church for a good 1 hour listening to him chant something that no one knew the meaning of.
Secondly, as I said, nothing is more beautiful than the meaning of the liturgy as well as the meaning of the tasbeha. If we can manage to pray the meaning, and not the songs, then fine. But the only way I know of praying the meaning is to, believe it or not, just pray the meaning - in the language that means something to u.
If u are fluent in Coptic, and u understand it well.. pray it in Coptic; but the only risk of that is that it tends to become a one man show if u pray that way (such as in the above example). You'll be happily praying away, and most people, such as Maged and myself (who learnt Coptic from CD's to sing hymns from) will not understand a word if there is no translation available.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92455#msg92455 date=1215568703] I'm actually trying to learn Coptic as a language so when I am actually singing I am thinking about it directly from Coptic. But before I took on this task, I learned the hymn first in english then i would learn it in coptic. Thats why memorizing hymns is so important now more than ever, if you can memorize the hymn and MASTER it then you can truley meditate on its meaning.
OK.. so, unfortunately, this advice is too late for me. It would be good for my kids. Its toooooo late. I wish i had learnt coptic when I was younger (as a language) - not just as a means of prayer.
I did something similar to you, but I found it MORE beneficial than learning the words in English. And that is to use the arabic language. The tasbeha in arabic works much much better than in English...
Anyway... that's my 2 cents worth.
As for Xkristos Anesti - yes.. point taken. But, do u see my point also?? Ya kol assefoof is now "official" -its a song we sing DURING the mass. Its part of our Church, and its in arabic.
What about the songs for Khiak. There are 1000's that we sing in arabic. The Coptic doesn't exist for them even.
So, why all the zealousness for a language, when the Church has already shown us that it is prepared to create hymns for the use in the arabic language.
There is no such thing as too late? What are you 50? I know you aren't, nothing is holding your back except yourself, put an effort and you will get it. It is not that difficult, it just takes dedication, if you don't have it then you will not learn it REGARDLESS of your age. If you do have it, then it will come easy to you.
Comments
I don't have any speakers to hear sound. Could u just summarise for me the main points he is saying??
Clay,
As far as I know, and please someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but Greek did play an important part in our Church, but I think in an oecumenical way only. Greek was a popular language at the time, so the essential parts of the mass had to be said in Greek - not Coptic so that everyone could understand.
This applied to the most sacred parts of the mass. (as far as I know).
But.. its not our heritage. Our heritage is NOT language - we are NOT a country, we are a Church. A Christian denomination. A Church never had its own language, otherwise Christ would never given His Apostles the gift of preaching in tongues. He'd have insisted that we all learn ONE language (and that would have been the language of the Church).
The language does not make up the Church. Our heritage is our patrology, our doctrines, our saints, our patriarchs.. Coptic is just a language.
The fact that Coptic is dying out and that Greek is still living, surely that should make u feel a tad bit better?? U know.. its not sooooooo bad - is it?
French is the language of France
English is the language of England
Dutch is the language of Dutch people lol
But the Coptic language was the language of Egypt at a certain period of time. This was replaced with arabic. Its just a language!! It has no impact on our orthodoxy, our rites. We are independent of language!! What we are not independent of is "meaning". We cannot start to change meaning from one thing to another.. this is wrong. But when we pray in Coptic.. there is NO MEANING. It means nothing to the most of us. Its just greek looking letters that rhymn very well when sung at a very high tempo.
Greek is definitely part of our heritage! You can't say that after 2000 years of praying in Greek in the Liturgy that it is not part of our heritage- that's just ludicrous. And the use of Greek is profound to me- that I am praying in the words of the Church Father- singing as they sang, using their holy words and offering it to God. We are in communion with all the saints in Heaven- we are a Universal Church. During the Liturgy we are participating with the heavenly choir and the saints. The saints are our history- our heritage. Many of our Popes did not know Coptic, and only spoke in Greek. Most of our Coptic Theologians spoke in Greek. I will reiterate- Greek is part of our heritage.
I think we are talking past each other. lol
Yes.. i know that Greek plays a part in our mass, and in our Christian life. Sure! but its just a language.
Our usage of heritage are different.
Our heritage, as far as I'm concerned, as our doctrine. Not language. No one taught me greek since I was baptised. If it was that essential I'd have learnt it.
Clay - how important is language?? For goodness sake - look : of course our father spoke in a language. Greek was then as English is now. Its like the "official" language. U see??? Its just that : a language.
Clay,
As far as I know, and please someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but Greek did play an important part in our Church, but I think in an oecumenical way only. Greek was a popular language at the time, so the essential parts of the mass had to be said in Greek - not Coptic so that everyone could understand.
This applied to the most sacred parts of the mass. (as far as I know).
But.. its not our heritage. Our heritage is NOT language - we are NOT a country, we are a Church. A Christian denomination. A Church never had its own language, otherwise Christ would never given His Apostles the gift of preaching in tongues. He'd have insisted that we all learn ONE language (and that would have been the language of the Church).
The language does not make up the Church. Our heritage is our patrology, our doctrines, our saints, our patriarchs.. Coptic is just a language.
The fact that Coptic is dying out and that Greek is still living, surely that should make u feel a tad bit better?? U know.. its not sooooooo bad - is it?
French is the language of France
English is the language of England
Dutch is the language of Dutch people lol
But the Coptic language was the language of Egypt at a certain period of time. This was replaced with arabic. Its just a language!! It has no impact on our orthodoxy, our rites. We are independent of language!! What we are not independent of is "meaning". We cannot start to change meaning from one thing to another.. this is wrong. But when we pray in Coptic.. there is NO MEANING. It means nothing to the most of us. Its just greek looking letters that rhymn very well when sung at a very high tempo.
you can't deny the important usage of Greek in our Coptic Language. our Coptic language is literally defined as being Hieroglyphs, into Greek letters. That’s how much greek was important. The reason it’s so much involved in our heritage is for the same reason that you are arguing right now, which is the understanding of the people….where most of the response that are directed to the people where in greek because, again, greek was the dominating language at that time….same as English now. Look at you vassilios, you say you don’t know English as good but for some reason I always doubted that…..
The fact that I'm worried about my salvation i'm raising my concern. Being baptised isn't enough. U have to now grow spiritually. Reading the words of the Agpeya is probably the ONLY resource I find in the Church that I can participate in. ANd when I say "read" I mean in English or French.. NOT in Greek nor Coptic.
OK.. I dare u to read the Agpeya in Coptic when abouna calls u to read?? I bet NO ONE will do that! Go and read it in Greek if u want. For me... i don't like the idea of praying in a language that I DO NOT understand. Unfortunately, to understand it, it seems that I have to learn another language, when the languages i have already should be good enough!!!
Im NOT denying the importance of Greek in our language. Its important in EVERY aspect... but not for daily prayer. Not for my daily prayer.
Look: For example: The Catholic Church in England/London have hymns and prayers in English that are COMPLETELY different to the Catholic Church in France, who have altogether OTHER hymns that are different, but made for the French language, and likewise for the Roman Catholic Church in Spain and Egypt.
This makes sense to me. The RC doesn't say: Look, we are orginally latin, let's make all our hymns latin. There are certain churches that still hold onto latin masses (100%). But they are the minority. All I'm saying is that I want to pray, not waste prayer time in singing stuff that I do not understand. Not EVERYTHing is translated also...
Only a few things.
OK. Mina.. Look. Imagine u walked into Church, and u heard a verse in the tasbeha in Coptic, would u straight away understand it? If so,great. I'm not at that level in Coptic. And many MANY others are not either. We just want to pray.
Period.
Mina,
The fact that I'm worried about my salvation i'm raising my concern. Being baptised isn't enough. U have to now grow spiritually. Reading the words of the Agpeya is probably the ONLY resource I find in the Church that I can participate in. ANd when I say "read" I mean in English or French.. NOT in Greek nor Coptic. OK.. I dare u to read the Agpeya in Coptic when abouna calls u to read?? I bet NO ONE will do that! Go and read it in Greek if u want. For me... i don't like the idea of praying in a language that I DO NOT understand. Unfortunately, to understand it, it seems that I have to learn another language, when the languages i have already should be good enough!!! Im NOT denying the importance of Greek in our language. Its important in EVERY aspect... but not for daily prayer. Not for my daily prayer.
no one would do that except if all new coptic.
i love how you said "my daily prayer". it's your daily prayer not anyone else but you. God doesn't tell you have to speak and pray in coptic in you own daily prayer on your own time. does He??!!
This is not like Islam where you have read the quran in arabic where when you wont, it's a sin......even thoo those translations of the quran are never fully true (for example translating Isalm = submission) maybe some can correct me on that.
it was proven before more then once why the usage of Coptic/Greek is still used today. First i will have Coptic and Greek in the same category since they were both the langauges of the source. Trying to prrov that wrong is just unintelligent becasue it's just not easy.
Look: For example: The Catholic Church in England/London have hymns and prayers in English that are COMPLETELY different to the Catholic Church in France, who have altogether OTHER hymns that are different, but made for the French language, and likewise for the Roman Catholic Church in Spain and Egypt.
I don't see your point. and using the Catholic church as an example is not a good idea either. your telling that every church is just on her own. that's it. So if am a catholic and my church we destroyed in an earthquake, your telling i now can't [b]pray, using the sense of prayer you are using Vassilios??!!! Yes i can take communion in many other churchs but everything would just be diffrent..... are you kidding me. You are tellingg me not everything is translated. with all do respact Vassilios, you'll NEVER fully see everything...lol...you are refering to small things that you have not seen. You speak english, what missing...things that not muuch people would use in the current time.....including you Vas, which wouldn't hurt your daily prayers. that "Period." on the end means nothing. that is your own opinion which can never be "Period." ALLL the people who don't bother with tasbeha say what you just said. you are not saying anything new here. if you are not at that level of coptic yet, then STOP wasting your time here on wirtting essays about this and actuly go do somthing for yourself and maybe for others....
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 1:22
Do u actually understand EVERYTHING u hear in Coptic?
Mina,
Do u actually understand EVERYTHING u hear in Coptic?
don't ask me specific question!!!!!
I am for myself.....I am not everyone.
Vass,
The Coptic Church has been around for 2,000 + Years. Its not called the Coptic ORTHODOX Church for nothing, in short - we accept and follow whats been given to us - WITHOUT CHANGE.
For example I learned the Saturday Tasbeha by listening to it over and over and over again.. in my car ... and then actually going to Tasbeha in the church Saturday night.. again following my "mental cd player" of what I memorized - then reading the English version of them... The two started to balance out and add up to something I understood as a whole.
I for one do not get into the word for word dissection of what I'm looking at in Coptic - but I can follow along and get the meaning or the idea of what I'm reading. If I choose to sing/chant along in the Church - then I'm not a parrot..I know what it is that I'm saying.
I choose not to get into the particulars of what each word means and why and how its used here vs there... doesn't concern me - PERSONALLY.
I'd rather focus on what the meaning of what it is that im saying or listening to... for example: the popular and very often used processional hymn of Epouro (O King of Peace)... I don't care what each word is... I know that when im singing Epouro... I'm singing O KING OF PEACE BESTOW UPON US YOUR PEACE... and so on...
But again that's me... and it works for me- its what gives me peace during the liturgy.
Vass - i think you should stop focusing on the LANGUAGE itself and more on the meaning...
You could ask yourself ... WHAT AM I SAYING in Coptic?
ANS: I dont know what im saying
Well then if I REALLY REALLY want to know - then let me find out what it is im saying.. then make the 1 to 1 correlation.
Whatever works for you - Coptic - English or Coptic - French or Coptic- <LANGUAGE>
Oh and on a side note, the story about the monk and the dirty basket - which you took literally and said 'i'd tell the monk to just wash it' (not quoting - just paraphrasing) is intended for you to see :
1. Obedience - the servant obeyed the monk and kept going to get water with a basket - knowing very well its not going to hold water.
2. The basket is a symbol of US - the people - the water is a Symbol of the Church or of God or even of the Word of God - the bible.
3. The dirt is the bad stuff we do or pick up as we 'walk thru life'
So putting 1, 2 and 3 together -- we should get that the purpose of the story is to say that as we keep going to Church, reading the bible, etc... each time we go or read the bible it washes us a little. Next time we do this, it washes us a little more and we're a little more cleaner then before and so on...
I hope you get the point of all this and do not continue to go on with this topic... because quite honestly, after reading the 1st full page and part of the 2nd...skimming the 3rd - I have a headache from you.... so I'm giving you the chance to end this on your own nicely.
Maged
Clay - how important is language?? For goodness sake - look : of course our father spoke in a language. Greek was then as English is now. Its like the "official" language. U see??? Its just that : a language.
Language is formidably important. Language is outward expression- a way of being a person. It has a character and a presence. It has rhythm, it has energy, it has veracity. Language is perhaps the greatest instrument of man. It is so powerful that wars have been started from it. The fiercest wars are usually of language. The greatest wounds are from language. The Tower of Babel was a result of a unified language. It was so powerful and destructive that God changed the tongues of a multitude to disperse them. Language brings people together- and it disperses them away like little else could. The limits of language is the limits of thinking and conception. Language, is the communication tool that needs most work- and only few master. Language is how the Gospel is preached to us. Language is the tool that we pray to God. We learn language just to express our hearts to God. God uses language to bring us to a better understanding of Him. The "sound doctrine" handed fromt he Apostles can only be really communicated in the tongue in which they spoke- and what language was that? Language is of immenent important- and its importance surpasses what words can envisage. Ironic?
Greek and Coptic both have a huge role in our Church. Coptic unifies us with our brothers and sisters in the Church of Alexandria. In the Creed we say, "We believe in one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of God". Greek is a visible symbol of our unity with all the Orthodox Churches. Whether Armenian, Ethiopian or Coptic, Greek has a presence. I am not saying that we should use these languages despite us not understanding it- but if we are going to talk about heritage- do not minimize Greek and Coptic or the role of language in the Church.
Vass,
The Coptic Church has been around for 2,000 + Years. Its not called the Coptic ORTHODOX Church for nothing, in short - we accept and follow whats been given to us - WITHOUT CHANGE.
I'm more interesting in focusing on this problem than changing the Church. On the contrary Maged, to ENSURE the CoC is still around for longer - I'm trying to get over this issue. If its not really dealt with, it will be a matter of finding another Church. In all seriousness. This issue is really stopping me from actually worshipping God. Well done! Now you are getting closer to seeing what the problem is.
That's how most of used to learn Coptic hymns (with the exception of Ophadece) & the tasbeha. I got CD's played them over and over. I attended the Saturday Night prayers, and i practiced what I had memorised.
But theere was/is always a period where u are memorising Coptic, and then associating it with the meaning. U agree? I do that.
I know that Eporo is the King of Peace. Sure! But what happens when they sing/ or I sing, the 3rd verse? Then, I have to concentrate on what Entefesmoro means. Sure, I know how to say it.. but, I may forget what it means. Do u understand what I am saying Maged? It means that there will be a point where I've just sang something where I've either forgotten its meaning, yet I know the Coptic SO well, I'll just say it anyway, and hopefully go over the meaning later, or basically, I can read Coptic well, and I just don't know its meaning, and then I can go back and read about it.
With ONE verse, or TWO verses its OK. With entire tasbeha's in the Coptic language, then it becomes a problem. Then I find myself now just standing silent, NOT praying a word and just READING the translation of what I've just sung! Me too. The two do make sense. The meaning IS beautiful. But when you are singing in Coptic, because we didn't learn the Coptic words as a language, its easy to forget the meaning of each verse.
Maged, look, before you respond to this email, try this small experiment at home:
Open the Upsulmodaya.. ok.. go to say, Afti-emeponoff.. ok?? Now, pick a verse RIGHT in the middle in Coptic.. ANY verse (except Shufsh esop empi-eh-heoo) - and without reading the arabic NOR english translation, do u know the meaning of the verse u have just read? Maged, we are similar here. I also know what I am saying. Simply because I bothered to read the meaning before singing. But whilst singing.. whilst im in the process of singing something that I just learnt the meaning of... its so EASY to forget the meaning of a verse WHILST u are singing in Coptic. At that moment, I feel I'm just singing.. i have to just stop.. and read the translation. A typical example is half way through Teo-Enhikanos.. u know, where they say "Aven tikovotos... hijen tipartenos.. etc".. the meaning is superb.. Nothing will compare; but if I do not read the English, I'll be honest with u, I feel I'm just reciting the voice I heard on the CD. That's all. I can take a look at the meaning - quickly, and then go back to hymn.. sure! But by taking a look at the meaning - i'm no longer singing.. i'm reading (the translation).
--> Which is still OK.. But it bothers me that I was singing some verses that I didnt know the meaning of... and then if I let it go on, its the entire tasbeha - with the exception of The Magma3a El Qedesseen.
Now, the Magma3a il Qedeseen, this HAS to be done in Coptic. lol
Its the easiest thing to do in Coptic, and we KNOW we do not need the translation to understand it. Its basic common sense.
But.. there are so many things outside the Magma3a Il Edeseen that is not so obvious, and i know it off by heart in Coptic, yet I forget the meaning in English. Even Arepsalin. The ONLY verses I know off by heart in arepsalin are the 1st, 2nd and Evnoti Panoti Ego.. (i know what they mean when I sing them) - the rest, I don't. Maged, i don't think u were reading what this thread is about. Its not at all about focusing on the meaning! Its whilst we are focusing on the meaning, we are not praying with our brother deacons in Coptic. We are TRULY focusing on the meaning. Its impossible to sing Coptic and focus on the meaning at the same time. If I'm concentrating on the meaning, that renders me as an observer of the act of worshipping, not a participator. I will be silent during the hymns that I know so well (i.e. That i've memorised from CD's), and just read their meaning instead of actually singing. That 1:1 correlation, if it happens during the praise itself, then you have stopped singing altogether, and are now in the process of making a correlation between the hymn and its meaning. As JYDEACON said, its perhaps important to make that correlation BEFORE the hymn, but because we learnt Coptic your way (i.e. by memorising CD's and not really trying to understand the grammer/vocularly of each word), its so easy to forget the meaning of a verse in Coptic that you are singing half-way through the tasbeha. Yes. English or French works fine. So, are u suggesting for me to drop Coptic? Did u understand the problem then? :( - I don't know what to tell u Maged. If I said that I was seriously contemplating going to the Catholic Church because of this, I think such a response would definately push me in that direction. Why bother asking for???
As for getting a headache, I know patience is a virtue. I just assumed being an admin of a CoC Website that you'd have some spiritual gifts to help u. I'll never assume that again. But why bother with this thread if its boring for u??
Maged, I'm living in a country where there are no spiritual Coptic prayer groups/activities/sunday schoool/meetings NOTHING. Tasbeha.org is all I have to ask anything and hopefully get a response. Maged, this is extremely antagonistic for no reason whatsoever. Really. Perhaps I should have placed this thread under "PERSONAL PROBLEMS" but, its a personal problem that involves Coptic.
U can lock this thread if u wish. I'm tired of explaining myself to someone who really doesn't even care.
The Coptic Church has changed dramatically, Maged. The faith has not, but the practices have changed remarkably. Fasts have increased progressively through the centuries, the Liturgy has become more and more developed, Creeds have solidified what the Church has taught in not so many words, Monastic orders and their practices have allows evolved, and other types of worship practices have changed.
For instance, pews were not in Churches until the 19th century. There used to be a dividing wall between men and women. the iconstansis came about in the third century, I believe. The way our Pope is chosen has changed, with requirements of Monastic orders. Our ranks of deacons have changed over the years, as well as their roles and responsibilities.
QT is talking about a practice in the Church, not something that is manifestly linked with faith. I tried establishing the link with faith and our use of language as symbols of unity with our ancestors, and the Universal Church. You didn't make that point, so I think what you have raised only slightly contributes to getting a healthy perspective.
I hope I am not guilty of also dismissing your valuable insight.
--> Which is still OK.. But it bothers me that I was singing some verses that I didnt know the meaning of... and then if I let it go on, its the entire tasbeha - with the exception of The Magma3a El Qedesseen.
Hmmm. vas, you get this problem too when you are chanting in your mother tongue. In any language, even the one most familiar, if you do not actively meditate on the words, it is very easy to forget the meaning of a verse.
However, chanting with the Angels and praising God with your heart (remember, it is the Holy Spirit who resides in our heart who utters the prayers for us to the Father) that will bring the joy of the tune to your heart. Admittedly, it is better to know what you are saying, at least generally.
Also, as with praying for the Agbeya, it is a process: we are being trained to speak in a spiritual language: to speak with the words of St. David. With the hymns in Coptic and in Greek, we are speaking word-for-word the words of the Church Fathers who composed the hymn! It is authentic, and that should really move our hearts.
Now.. look at this (all Coptic Lovers):
COPTIC LANGUAGE HAS A BRILLIANT ROLE FOR OUR CHURCH:
Where? For our children. Yep! for babies. Neknai O Panoti, Agios Otheos, all these hymns are brilliant lullabies to sing for kids. In fact, so is Teoi Enhikanos. And it will definately help them when they get older to know the tune well and spend MORE time memorising the MEANING than just singing Coptic.
But i feel that it could dissuade Children, who above a certain age, REALLY need to understand meaning of what they are singing, MORE than just melodies and tunes.
"We cannot pray to God the Father, unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit" - I think this is a verse from the Bible you are referring to. I probably mis-quoted it, but singing in a language where we are not in correlation with the meaning WHILST we are singing is not from the Holy Spirit. Its NOT. Is not the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Understanding and Wisdom?? Is there any understanding in singing a verse that has no meaning to us??? And if we are lucky, we can find out the meaning at the end of our "prayer time" when the tasbeha has finished??
Who is benefitting from the Tasbeha? Us or God??? It is US!! How?
What is the tasbeha? Are we not singing the "word" of God, compared to those who "Read" the Word of God (through the Bible)... in the tasbeha, we sing the word of God. Does not the word of God purify us and make us clean??? But what good is this Word if its in a language that is foreign to me, NOR if i do not give its meaning enough time and concentration to actually purify my heart???? You see now the dangers?? Coptic Tasbeha is brilliant, IF U ARE FLUENT IN COPTIC.
In fact, if you understood the meaning of the tasbeha, you've probably covered a large portion of the Bible.
Singing the word of God is good for us, and its importance is paramount. SO PARAMOUNT that it worries me the dangers of not allowing God's word to work in my heart because we get sidetracked with singing in Coptic.. not in a language that we understand that renders us observers of this joy of praising God, rather than active participators in worshipping and allowing the meaning with the tune to work in us.
Who don't you just do the Holy Psalmody in the language that you prefer? Don't discourage those who do it in Coptic...from the way you talk, you make it seem completely and utterly useless.
Hi Severus,
Yes, of course I would do the Coptic in the language I understand. But if u look CLOSELY at my thread: there was ONE particular subject I wanted to address : What are the dangers of doing it in a language that we do not understand???
That's all.
What are they???
one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
Is it hard for you to understand that there is a problem singing in Coptic AND doing the translation in your head at the same time. It means u are not participating in the praise. You see that??
If it was ONE verse, its not a problem. But, if u sing in Coptic for the entire duration of the tasbeha, then it becomes a problem. Add onto this the Holy Mass if its in Coptic also, and then, the concentration, or the time one dedicates to prayer is less. I envy people who learn Coptic as a language, they must benefit tremendously from the entire Coptic Church's liturgy, tasbeha etc. Those of us that learnt Coptic as per "Maged's suggestion" , only learnt it to know the meaning.. not the language. Which means that once we start singing a verse in Coptic, we tend to forget its meaning DURING the singing. WHy can u not appreciate this problem??
My question, if u read it carefully, its to see what the effects are of daily prayer in a language that one doesn't understand???
We dedicate time to God: Sunday, and Saturday during the Tasbeha. Right? How much of that time is spent in REAL PRAYER?? And how much of it was just spent singing things in Coptic because we know the tune/words off by heart?? It is impossible, for the last time, to read a translated text WHILST singing in Coptic.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
Hi Severus,
Yes, of course I would do the Coptic in the language I understand. But if u look CLOSELY at my thread: there was ONE particular subject I wanted to address : What are the dangers of doing it in a language that we do not understand???
That's all.
What are they???
And we have clearly answered that. There are tunes set on the language that are best done in that original language. EVEN IN TASBEHA. It’s that easy to understand and accept.
Also the fact that our entire heritage is based on the language, our heritage will be kept by using that language.
It’s good enough that the true tune of our liturgy parts are fading away because of the diversity of languages it’s translated in. I am not saying it’s bad, am just showing that it is in fact changing for those who don’t understand the language.
If I am not mistaken, here in the US, in the southern diocese in particular, HGB Youseff tells his diocese priests to pray liturgies mostly 20% Coptic and 80% English.
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876]
one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
Is it hard for you to understand that there is a problem singing in Coptic AND doing the translation in your head at the same time. It means u are not participating in the praise. You see that??
If it was ONE verse, its not a problem. But, if u sing in Coptic for the entire duration of the tasbeha, then it becomes a problem. Add onto this the Holy Mass if its in Coptic also, and then, the concentration, or the time one dedicates to prayer is less. I envy people who learn Coptic as a language, they must benefit tremendously from the entire Coptic Church's liturgy, tasbeha etc. Those of us that learnt Coptic as per "Maged's suggestion" , only learnt it to know the meaning.. not the language. Which means that once we start singing a verse in Coptic, we tend to forget its meaning DURING the singing. WHy can u not appreciate this problem??
My question, if u read it carefully, its to see what the effects are of daily prayer in a language that one doesn't understand???
We dedicate time to God: Sunday, and Saturday during the Tasbeha. Right? How much of that time is spent in REAL PRAYER?? And how much of it was just spent singing things in Coptic because we know the tune/words off by heart?? It is impossible, for the last time, to read a translated text WHILST singing in Coptic.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
there are NO DANGERS.
The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest.
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876]
one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
No where in any of my posts did i say that i have them memorized but i said this is what i do before i learn a hymn and what should be done when teaching a hymn. I'm still working on it but i don't have them ALL memorized
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92405#msg92405 date=1215468435]
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92399#msg92399 date=1215462876]
one word. LAZINESS. If you are too lazy to do what JY said a few posts back and READ THE TRANSLATION then you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you did do what he said then we wouldnt have this conversation.
Is it hard for you to understand that there is a problem singing in Coptic AND doing the translation in your head at the same time. It means u are not participating in the praise. You see that??
If it was ONE verse, its not a problem. But, if u sing in Coptic for the entire duration of the tasbeha, then it becomes a problem. Add onto this the Holy Mass if its in Coptic also, and then, the concentration, or the time one dedicates to prayer is less. I envy people who learn Coptic as a language, they must benefit tremendously from the entire Coptic Church's liturgy, tasbeha etc. Those of us that learnt Coptic as per "Maged's suggestion" , only learnt it to know the meaning.. not the language. Which means that once we start singing a verse in Coptic, we tend to forget its meaning DURING the singing. WHy can u not appreciate this problem??
My question, if u read it carefully, its to see what the effects are of daily prayer in a language that one doesn't understand???
We dedicate time to God: Sunday, and Saturday during the Tasbeha. Right? How much of that time is spent in REAL PRAYER?? And how much of it was just spent singing things in Coptic because we know the tune/words off by heart?? It is impossible, for the last time, to read a translated text WHILST singing in Coptic.
I have NO IDEA how JY managed to learn the ENTIRE translated text for all the verses in Coptic (tasbeha, hymns, alhan etc).. I've got NO idea.
Perhaps he should tell us!!
there are NO DANGERS.
The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest.
That is completely false. I have met quite a few who have left Church (or come very sporadically) because they felt it irrelevant. When I asked how, they said the use of Coptic and Arabic in the Liturgy and sermon. And they were not willing to travel 50 km (I think 30 something miles) for the next church that uses less of these languages. The fact is that Churches in the diaspora should give priority to the language in that country. That is a danger- but is not going to fixed by doing away with Coptic, because that just enters into another danger- a loss of identity, communion, and spiritual splendor.
Have you ever attended a coptic liturgy. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard, especial Nee men epshois. it is soooo beautiful look for a recording of it. And i think for the most part the liturgy can be memorized. As for memorizing tasbeha dunno what you do in your church but in mine we alternate verses coptic and english so every other verse is english, the ones that are coptic what i sometimes do is sing them in english under my breath, you should try it, it might help you out.
No where in any of my posts did i say that i have them memorized but i said this is what i do before i learn a hymn and what should be done when teaching a hymn. I'm still working on it but i don't have them ALL memorized
Hi JY, please then explain to us, or help us understand better how u manage to sing Coptic hymns AND correlate the meaning at the same time? I cannot, for the life of me, read a translation of what I'm saying and sing something in Coptic at the same time.
What do u do? I can perhaps memorise the meaning of the 1st 4 verses of EACH hoss...
But that's about it. Any advice is welcome.
there are NO DANGERS.
The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest.
Mina,
That's so untrue.
You know very well there are Coptic Christians that have introduced protestant hymns in our Church simply because they are dettered from Coptic. We've discussed that before.
There are no coptic churches in Paris. There are french coptic couples that suffer because of this as the entire service is either ARabic OR Coptic. Hardly any French. The sermon is definately not in French. So, they travel at least 50 km to attend a mass that they do not understand nor actively participate in
During the mass, we are meant to be praying WITH abouna. We should be saying what he says in our hearts, and praying with him. But we are translating or trying to read a translated text during the mass. Do u not think that many Coptic couples have already left the church for this reason???
I have one final comment or thought:
[b]
* What is the "official" song for the Qiyama (Resurrection?) - its "YA KOL ASSEFFOUF". isn't it.
This is not Coptic. Its a beautiful hymn. Its always sang in Arabic. NEVER coptic. There will be a time when the Coptic Church starts to make the same quality hymns for the language of the Diaspora so that we can pray, finally!
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92413#msg92413 date=1215478483]
No where in any of my posts did i say that i have them memorized but i said this is what i do before i learn a hymn and what should be done when teaching a hymn. I'm still working on it but i don't have them ALL memorized
Hi JY, please then explain to us, or help us understand better how u manage to sing Coptic hymns AND correlate the meaning at the same time? I cannot, for the life of me, read a translation of what I'm saying and sing something in Coptic at the same time.
What do u do? I can perhaps memorise the meaning of the 1st 4 verses of EACH hoss...
But that's about it. Any advice is welcome.
I'm actually trying to learn Coptic as a language so when I am actually singing I am thinking about it directly from Coptic. But before I took on this task, I learned the hymn first in english then i would learn it in coptic. Thats why memorizing hymns is so important now more than ever, if you can memorize the hymn and MASTER it then you can truley meditate on its meaning.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92433#msg92433 date=1215506033]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92407#msg92407 date=1215468979]
there are NO DANGERS.
The proof: no one in our Coptic church thought that the Coptic language is a dominating one that they left the whole Church, Jesus’ Orthodox Faith, for that.
you wanna be the first Vassilios, be my guest.
[/quote
I have one final comment or thought:
[b]
* What is the "official" song for the Qiyama (Resurrection?) - its "YA KOL ASSEFFOUF". isn't it.
This is not Coptic. Its a beautiful hymn. Its always sang in Arabic. NEVER coptic. There will be a time when the Coptic Church starts to make the same quality hymns for the language of the Diaspora so that we can pray, finally!
There is NO official hymn of the Resurrection, all hymns are equal to each other and if you want to get specifically technical, it would be [coptic]<rictoc Anecti[/coptic] Not Ya Kol al Sefoof.
besdies if they left for arabic then they have major issues,
Yes. I agree here. THere is nothing more beautiful than the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy. If people leave because of language then they have major issues. Very true. However, its not because of language that they will leave. But they will probably find another CoC that doesn't use Coptic to an extent that it becomes hard to pray. That's all. Coptic simply means Egyptian. Doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. Egypt, if you look carefully on any map (or even on your passport), is called the "Arab Republic of Egypt". Now, u may not consider yourself an "arab", but your government does.
This also raises the issue of integration of Copts within Egypt. If Coptic Christians (who are born and raised in Egypt) start denying their national language in favour of Coptic, wouldn't that result in lack of integration? I don't think this is wise. But ask abouna. I just get the feeling that this animosity towards Arab Egypt is a rejection of Islam, rather than an acceptance of your national identity. I have NEVER suggested to phase out coptic. EVER. Read all my posts again. I've just focused on the problem of praying in a language which we do not understand. No. Our faith is beyond language. Look at the British Orthodox Church. Look at the Armenian Orthodox Church. Look at the Syrian Orthodox Church. They are not tied to the Coptic language. They are tied down to the Coptic Faith.
I think the best solution is to have masses that are in the language of the Diaspora that occur often.
Nothing will EVER compare to the Coptic Liturgy. Nothing. It truly is a masterpiece of spiritual excellence that is incomparable to any other liturgy i've ever attended. But what makes it beautiful, for me, is not the Coptic language IN the liturgy. Not at all. Its the Orthodoxy. We say and do things in the mass with so much depth, and meaning. Nothing is haphazard. Its brilliant. Its funny, because u seem to be focusing on the musical aspect of the mass. I have never heard this hymn, but I agree that the Coptic liturgy is beautiful and deep, and I would not change it for the world. But what makes it beautiful for me is the meaning. The spiritual aspect. Not musical. Yes. Point taken.. but again, why don't people try to understand my thread. My thread was clear: What are the effects when we pray in a language that is foreign to us? Are we spending time translating the meaning in our heads, or singing the meaning? As I said before, I tried this, and I was sworn at for doing it in English.
I just wish to summarise and say:
The Coptic language will not die - EVER if you use it for prayer. If its sung in anyway outside the capacity of prayer, then it will die. One deacon, during kiahk sang something in coptic that was very rare. No one had the translation. It was from a book that was in Coptic. The other half was arabic. This particular deacon does not read arabic. He only knows Coptic. We just sat in Church for a good 1 hour listening to him chant something that no one knew the meaning of.
Secondly, as I said, nothing is more beautiful than the meaning of the liturgy as well as the meaning of the tasbeha. If we can manage to pray the meaning, and not the songs, then fine. But the only way I know of praying the meaning is to, believe it or not, just pray the meaning - in the language that means something to u.
If u are fluent in Coptic, and u understand it well.. pray it in Coptic; but the only risk of that is that it tends to become a one man show if u pray that way (such as in the above example). You'll be happily praying away, and most people, such as Maged and myself (who learnt Coptic from CD's to sing hymns from) will not understand a word if there is no translation available.
I'm actually trying to learn Coptic as a language so when I am actually singing I am thinking about it directly from Coptic. But before I took on this task, I learned the hymn first in english then i would learn it in coptic. Thats why memorizing hymns is so important now more than ever, if you can memorize the hymn and MASTER it then you can truley meditate on its meaning.
OK.. so, unfortunately, this advice is too late for me. It would be good for my kids. Its toooooo late. I wish i had learnt coptic when I was younger (as a language) - not just as a means of prayer.
I did something similar to you, but I found it MORE beneficial than learning the words in English. And that is to use the arabic language. The tasbeha in arabic works much much better than in English...
Anyway... that's my 2 cents worth.
As for Xkristos Anesti - yes.. point taken. But, do u see my point also?? Ya kol assefoof is now "official" -its a song we sing DURING the mass. Its part of our Church, and its in arabic.
What about the songs for Khiak. There are 1000's that we sing in arabic. The Coptic doesn't exist for them even.
So, why all the zealousness for a language, when the Church has already shown us that it is prepared to create hymns for the use in the arabic language.