i do agree with you, if a person sings a one hour hymn that no one understand then they aren't thinking of the congregation and are very selfish, but being sworn at for singing in english under your breath? You are not at fault, those people are selfish for not letting you gain spiritually.
Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92463#msg92463 date=1215573383] Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
no hymn of one tune is one hour. the longest hymn/tun/praise in our church is teoi enhi-kanos the great is the longest....about 30 mins.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92457#msg92457 date=1215571462] No. Our faith is beyond language. Look at the British Orthodox Church. Look at the Armenian Orthodox Church. Look at the Syrian Orthodox Church. They are not tied to the Coptic language. They are tied down to the Coptic Faith.
if am not mistaken, the British church language is ENGLISH, DUHHHHH.... now go to the other church and check out their hymns IN THEIR languages.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92464#msg92464 date=1215574183] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92463#msg92463 date=1215573383] Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
no hymn of one tune is one hour. the longest hymn/tun/praise in our church is teoi enhi-kanos the great is the longest....about 30 mins.
Yes I know, i was speaking as in an example, sorry
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92463#msg92463 date=1215573383] Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
Listen, this topic is about the ability to pray in a foreign language to us. Now, I want to stick to this topic, and not get sidetracked as i think the admins are patient so far.
Look. Here are a few facts:
LONG HYMNS... i mean, really long hymns like psalms sung in Passion week in COPTIC are easy to pray from. I mean, they can stay in Coptic. Why? Because not only are they translated, but whilst someone is singing them, we can not only meditate on it, but also, read the Bible and prophesies of that hour deeper when hearing such beautiful melodies that help us contemplate. There is no question here. Its spot on. Coptic will not die if its hymns are used in this context.
As for learning Coptic as a language - i am with Maged 110% on this. I do not care for the words or language as a language: I care to just pray: i.e. i'll get an MP3 of the hymn, and know its meaning as far as possible. Its too late for me in that, no, i'm young, but there is NO time in my life to learn another language.
I learnt arabic JUST to sing with the CHurch during khiahk. I mean, i learnt it so fast, that I read the Bible in arabic IN church!!! :D (YAY!!). How did I learn? I started off with a book called "Amal, Omar wa Bissbiss il otta". THen I got a teach yourself arabic book. It took me from the the Ahram newspaper to the Quran. (OK.. but it was a book to learn arabic.).
Do such materials exist for the Coptic language??? Such ressources? Whenever i'd read arabic, I'd ask my parents what this word means, or that word.. who can i ask for Coptic to help me with grammer??? A website?? There's only so much a website can teach u. There is NOT ONE person in my Church in France that speaks Coptic. Sure, they all read it. I read it! But, no one who actually speaks it. Yet we all sing and pray to God in it!?
Look Vas, I understand your concern and why you have put up this topic, I agree it's not right that a person should be saying words in prayer without understanding them. That's why many have given examples of how one should try to combine the two in one and learn the meaning before or after memorizing the hymn/prayer in coptic. I agree also that there should be liturgies in the language of the country of diaspora combined with coptic, yet there should also be a liturgy in arabic-coptic for in most coptic communities many people speak arabic...
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92457#msg92457 date=1215571462] [quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92419#msg92419 date=1215487543] besdies if they left for arabic then they have major issues,
Yes. I agree here. THere is nothing more beautiful than the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy. If people leave because of language then they have major issues. Very true. However, its not because of language that they will leave. But they will probably find another CoC that doesn't use Coptic to an extent that it becomes hard to pray. That's all.
i know for a fact that MOST of my church speaks arabic, so i dunno, maybe it's different over there. We are a COPTIC orthodox church, not arab orthodox, not american orthodoxthis means that i speak coptic i remember where i came from, i remember my own lineage of faith.
Coptic simply means Egyptian. Doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. Egypt, if you look carefully on any map (or even on your passport), is called the "Arab Republic of Egypt". Now, u may not consider yourself an "arab", but your government does.
This also raises the issue of integration of Copts within Egypt. If Coptic Christians (who are born and raised in Egypt) start denying their national language in favour of Coptic, wouldn't that result in lack of integration? I don't think this is wise. But ask abouna. I just get the feeling that this animosity towards Arab Egypt is a rejection of Islam, rather than an acceptance of your national identity.
I'm not rebelling against arabic, I think it's a beautiful language and I'm really glad I know it. However, it's a fact that we are (most of us) not of arabic descent (thus not from the Arabic peninsula) but from ancient Egyptian descent. And so are many muslims living in Egypt (copts who converted to Islam). All Egyptians (muslims and christians) take pride in the glorious history of Egypt. Yet for us COPTS the COPTIC language has a special place in our hearts (well, for most of us at least), it's not out of rebellion but more out of awareness of the early christians in Egypt, the persecution, how much it took so today we would still be christians with the true orthodox faith...
So I don't see the point of your discussion frankly, since we already pointed out the dangers of praying in a language you don't understand: simply you will not benefit from it. But if you're suggesting putting away with coptic as you think it's not important in our church then I will have to disagree with you. COPTIC is part of the COPTIC orthodox church. If it were up to me, all copts would learn coptic and be able to follow the liturgy in coptic and to read the letters of St Athanasius and tasbeha etc...., but since that's practically impossible, we should AT LEAST try to preserve it and not just throw it away because we're not willing to bother at all
Besides tasbeha shouldn't be the only time you pray.. so even if you don't benefit from it as much as you'd like then you should make the effort to pray it in your language afterwards (if you think it's so difficult to learn the meaning of it before saying it..)
Godislove, if you read the initial post of this thread, it explains the relevance. This discussion was sidetracked in proving to others that one cannot sing the tasbeha in Coptic whilst at the same time pray the meaning. U can only do one or the other. Especially in long hymns such as Teoi Enhikanos, or any of the Hoss's.
So, what was the question? It was to know if we suffer because we have been praying (or I have been praying if this only applies to me) in Coptic FOR SOOO LONG that i've only saturated 10% of the meaning. So, if the tasbeha i attended lasted for 2 hours (from Ten-Thino to Neknai O Panoti) - and it was in Coptic. If I only knew 10% of the meaning whilst singing, what effect did that have on my spiritual life???
Correlating the meaning with the Coptic words was a solution put forward, but if this works for u, fine! it doesn't work for me. What did work for me was to stop singing and read the meaning in English/French whilst letting those around me sing.
So, at the end of the day, i felt the existence of Coptic was preventing me from praying. The meaning is brilliant. But its very hard to enjoy both. Like I said, i truly envy the likes of Ophadece who is fluent in Coptic. If he thinks and reasons in Coptic, then he will enjoy the tasbeha more and benefit more.
The thread is about the dangers of continuing to pray without knowing the meaning. Of course, most people's attitude is like mine: "I don't understand this verse, but I'll read it later when I get home". However, during the tasbeha, the time we devote to praising God, is not fully utilised in praise. Its seems to be just singing what we've learnt from CD's.
This thread also asked the Coptic congregation ways in which they themselves found useful in memorising the translated text? I, for one, do find it a bit of a problem memorising the Coptic with the english. For the 1st four or five verses from any hoss, i probably know the meaning, but more than that... i'm lost.
What techniques do people use to memorise the meaning??
And if we sing in Coptic, yet say the meaning simultaneously in our heads, is there a danger that THIS is distracting us from prayer, as it requires more mental power, than spiritual concentration power?? My mind is devoted to recalling the meaning of what I'm singing in Coptic than actually using my complete concentration to pray directly.
I know my English is poor, but I really hope i've explained this well enough for you to see the problem here.
Your english is far from poor, but it's just that this topic is like 5 pages long now, and I don't understand what your goal is, what you want to acheive by it. Since some techinques have already been shared, and as said, it requires dedication and perseverence. But it seems like you want us to stop using coptic in church, which is something I can't agree with. It also requires much effort from me to know the meaning while singing, but it's possible, if you're really doing your best, that's just my point of view..
On the one hand, I wish the Church would create songs that can be used in lieu of Coptic songs written in the language of the Diaspora (eg. exactly like ya kol assefoof).
I think the best person to ansewr this question would be a priest: he would know the effects of having spent 80% of my life in Church singing Coptic hymns and only understanding 10% of it.
Keep in mind, when we pray in any language, though we may not know what we are saying, the Lord understands fully and completely, and He will reward us for trying. Instead of trying so hard to focus on the meaning during the Tasbeha, relax yourselves and just sing, sing for singing praise unto our God is one of the most beautiful things one can do. Even if you do not understand it, just sing and meditate on the fact that the angels around you, and yes there are angels present, (we even ask the Angel of this night flying up with this hymn to remember us before the Lord), are singing along with you. Do not be discouraged that you do not know the meaning of what you are saying. That can be learned. Maybe not during the actual Tasbeha, but eventually when you sing and enjoy it, you will gradually learn.
I am blessed that I go to a church that does the Tasbeha in all three languages. Our church forms two separate groups, one sings one to two verses, then the other group takes over, and we change up. This gives us time to read what the others are saying, what we said, and to meditate on those words. Vas, I understand your problem, I used to feel the same way when my church only did hymns and Tasbeha, and even the liturgy in just Coptic and Arabic. But because our population grew and we have a lot of native English speakers, it changed. Just give it time, wait for your church to grow, and gradually they will open up to singing the Tasbeha in a language you understand. While this may take a while, I would recommend you buy a book, or even just look at the powerpoints that are online, which have all 3 languages on them, and when they are singing, glance quickly on the other language so you can take in what you are saying. Do not be discouraged, rather relax, smile, sing, and be full of joy that you have the opportunity to sing praises unto our God, in any language at all.
I believe in the power of prayer. Not in the power of melodies. When u sing in Coptic and you do not correlate the meaning in your head WHILST you are singing, u are not praying.
So, what is the problem?
I was doing the tasbeha in English with these two deacons at Church. They got so angry they started to swear at me. I mean, it was very abusive.
Do u think that if they honestly were praying they would have sworn at me?? If the words of the tasbeha penetrated their hearts, would they have insulted my mother?? Do u think that its possible?? I don't think so.
I think they enjoy more the melody, and the meaning is taken away. It is God's word that we sing during the tasbeha. Christ said that "u are now pure because of my Word" - so, His words are meant to cleanse us. Not melodies. Yes.. the melodies, tunes etc are brilliant.. but do u see the danger?? If u say :"Don't worry about not understanding" - U are preventing people from praying. This is EXACTLY what worries me. That when u pray without understanding, u think u are gaining a blessing!???
Its like someone reading the bible backwards. Its still God's words, and surely we are getting a blessing by saying them - even though it doesn't make any sense when we say them backwards, or muddled up.
Not at all. As I said, in the tasbeha, we are singing the Bible. We are allowing God's words to penetrate our heart.
When Moses Crossed the Red Sea, rather than read this story in the Bible, we can sing it in Khen Oshot, and the tune of Khen O-shot really gives more life to the scenario taking place: The waters divided... Yes, its truly a work of art - the Coptic Tasbeha.. IF you put meaning before beauty.
If i just focus on the alhan, and say as u said : I will end up spiritually dead. Really!! I've been there.
Its wrong. Your argument, my friend, was that at least we are gaining some blessing by being in Church. Yes. That's true.. but u are gaining the same blessing just by being in CHurch sitting quietly, and praying in your heart.. or just sitting quietly in AWE because its the house of God!!!
No no... this is dangerous what u've written SilentOne. The Holy Spirit helps us to pray. It is the Spirit of Understanding . Isn't it?? So, how can we pray without understanding, and think that we've gained from this?? If u have understood the words, the melody becomes less of a priority, and what supersedes is glorification to the Holy Trinity.
Please, i urge u to reconsider what you've said, and see that praise without ANY understanding of its meaning is, in my opinion, even a step in the wrong direction with respect to how we respect God. Its my feelings. And I am someone who knows the tasbeha off by heart (upsalmodaya) - end to end. But, I do not know the meaning off by heart. That's the only problem.
Ah forgive me, for my words were a bit confusing. I do not under any circumstance support just singing for the melody, in fact I disagree strongly with that, however, my main point was do not let not understanding the meaning spoil the entire moment. During the tasbeha, are you forced to sing the entire time? Why not take a small break during it and learn what is being said? I by no means support just singing the hymns without understanding. What I was trying to say is, sing anyway, though we may not understand at the time, but eventually, we will understand.
When we were children, our parents and fellow church members taught us how to pray our Father, Agios o Theos, and dozens of prayers. Did we understand them then? No. However, it was a door opening for us, to further explore and understand these prayers. When we are in Tasbeha, consider ourselves as children, opening a new doorway of praise. It took time for us to understand our Father, yes? It will take time to understand the Tasbeha in its entirety. I cannot emphasize enough though, do not let that be a hindrance to your spiritual life. Instead of feeling empty or sad, rather use the tasbeha to increase your spiritual life. You've said you cannot, because you do not comprehend. Take some time out during the tasbeha, to learn a few lines. Just take a small break every now and then, surely they won't yell at you, at least I hope they wouldn't. Vas, do not take me wrong here, I feel the same way you do. When I'm singing in Coptic or Arabic I do not fully understand what I'm saying and I do not feel that I'm praying, and that is a problem to me, but I am trying. I am like a kid learning to ride a bicycle. When I get up on it, I fall. But I will keep trying until I can comprehend how to ride the bicycle (the meaning) and eventually I will succeed. It's hard, yes, I'm not denying that, but you are not the only one who feels this way and do not think everyone on here is against you, in fact, I believe most people here have also felt this way before. I think it's just the meaning of our posts that are being misread.
Now SilentOne, this has now turned into a very intelligent conversation since u arrived.
Because look:
You said :"
When we were children, our parents and fellow church members taught us how to pray our Father, Agios o Theos, and dozens of prayers. Did we understand them then? No. However, it was a door opening for us, to further explore and understand these prayers
.
Now, that's very true.. but as u said, we learnt this as kids yet we didn't understand then (at that moment)!? But.. how MUCH MORE would we have benefitted as kids HAD we understood Agios Otheos straight-away! This hymn would have taught us a lot of Christology!
How much more would we have understood the Old Testament had we understood the meaning of the tasbeha when we were kids rather than just us learning the hymn in the hope of learning the meaning at a later date
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92491#msg92491 date=1215626121] Now SilentOne, this has now turned into a very intelligent conversation since u arrived.
Because look:
You said :"
When we were children, our parents and fellow church members taught us how to pray our Father, Agios o Theos, and dozens of prayers. Did we understand them then? No. However, it was a door opening for us, to further explore and understand these prayers
.
Now, that's very true.. but as u said, we learnt this as kids yet we didn't understand then (at that moment)!? But.. how MUCH MORE would we have benefitted as kids HAD we understood Agios Otheos straight-away! This hymn would have taught us a lot of Christology!
How much more would we have understood the Old Testament had we understood the meaning of the tasbeha when we were kids rather than just us learning the hymn in the hope of learning the meaning at a later date
Do u see now the dangers??
NO. the danger right now is that there are just the likes of you that just want EVERYTHING. who do you think you are......GOD gives people as He thinks they need to have. If you do your part and let Him work in you, and you still don't do what ever you're trying to explain here, then he just doesn't want you.
I AM FULLY againts teaching little children to much of our church rites hymns...etc. FULLY against it. the fact that the child will learn all of those things at one time, in a young age just makes what he learned to be just second nature....which when he is old enough, teenage years, he will ignore all of these things or even treat them as just part of their daily lives. Our human minds are not the same from the time of our birth. knowledge is given according to the development of someones mind. A child would easly learn the trisagion as a hymn (i don't mind kids learning hymns even hard long ones), when he/she is old enough to learn it's meaning, he will and he will respect it enough.
Vassilios, there will be NO VALID answer that you'll get for your what so called, an important question.....5 pages of text, nothing answered......and still no one would.
I do not deny there are dangers, but keep in mind when we learned our Father, we were what, 3 years old? Surely a three year old cannot be expected to comprehend the meaning of those prayers at that age, they still can't even walk or talk correctly let alone understand theological subjects. Now I am not saying we are children, we are like them in that we are still new to the tasbeha. We can memorize, but we do not comprehend. The problem is that we don't comprehend what we're saying, but as we learned those other prayers, we can surely learn the meaning of the Tasbeha. It just takes time. Why do we go to school for 12 years + college? Because we cannot start learning calculus, physiology, psychology, etc before we learn how to add and subtract and learn the basics of education. Vas, you are an intelligent person and I see your frustration with the current set up of the tasbeha. I am like you, but all we can do right now is not just "hope of learning the meaning at a later date," but actually work on learning the meaning. As we sit here, typing on the forums, why don't we play the tasbeha in a language we know, and learn the meanings? Saint Anthony's Monastery in California has uploaded their entire tasbeha on this website, it is surely a great learning tool.
Instead of learning the meanings of each verse, verse by verse, let's begin by learning the meanings of the song in general. I am not saying to ignore the meanings of the verses, no that's against what you and I said. But it's a beginning. If I know the third canticle (oh sing unto him) is a song beseeching everyone to sing praises unto our God first, then it will be easier for me to learn the meanings of each verse as I continue to learn. What I'm saying is, we should do this in small steps. Learning the meaning of each verse will be very hard, but if we start small, we will be like the baby who takes small steps, gradually learns to walk, walks, jogs, sprints, then runs at full speed. It takes time, but once we pass these steps, Tasbeha will be much more enjoyable and precious in our hearts and it will increase our spiritual life in such an unspeakable way.
THere is an answer.. but its too late for me to benefit from it.
Here it is:
Learn the tasbeha in the language of your choice. Know it off by heart in the language of your choice. THEN LEARN THE COPTIC!!!
THat way, u can pray.
The coptic doesn't die. U can still pray, and everyone's a happy camper.
If u learn the Tasbeha FIRST in the language u know well... u will listen to the Coptic,a nd the meaning will be easy to correlate!!! But the other way around doesn't work.
[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=6868.msg92495#msg92495 date=1215627214] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92494#msg92494 date=1215627046] THere is an answer.. but its too late for me to benefit from it.
Why is it too late to benefit from it?
Its too late for me, because I know it so well in Coptic. I mean.. i should have started to learn it in French, and THEN Coptic afterwards.
I know all the tasbeha in Coptic. If i start to do it in French, then the Coptic will always be what I say to myself, and I can never correlate the meaning.
Its too late for me. The Coptic is stuck in my head!!!
It's never too late to learn it in another language, just pray that God gives you the strength, knowledge, and comprehension in order to learn it in a way that you may praise Him through it.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92497#msg92497 date=1215627514] Ask me how i found out!?
OK, I get this PM from the wife of the head of the sunday school. We are good friends and we chat.
I tell her:
"Hey, do u think its wise to sing in a language we do not understand?"
She says :"yes.. u mean Coptic - of course!".
I said "But..how? Surely the meaning is what is important for u? When U pray the tasbeha, do u understand what u are saying in Coptic?"
She said "Ahh... I learnt the tasbeha in ARABIC 1st!! That's very important. When I put Coptic ontop of what I know, i'm still praying the words in Arabic, but singing it in Coptic".
And I agree with her - because there are a few hymns from the tasbeha that I know in Arabic, and i do say it to myself in arabic.. but the rest.. the Coptic is all i hear in my head.
Secondly, she insists that its IMPERATIVE to teach the children the meaning of the songs. Metropolitan Anba Bishoy praised her for how she was teaching the children in her sunday school. He even took a picture of her, and said to her "I've never seen a brilliant teacher like u".
No no.. the meaning is imperative to the kids (minagir -FYI!).
But.. guys.. u have the answer!!!
This will work for ANYTHING: The mass, the tasbeha... hymns.. etc.
U get to save the Coptic language and melodies that way.
This lady is a saint. Trust me.
So, basically, I know that u will be eager to do the hymn in Coptic, but u need to be patient. Practice the hymn FIRST in the language u are accustomed to. Do it many times so u know the meaning... then, learn the Coptic of it. That way, u will be praying easily.
Actually, I just want to say, i'm not sure if this works for all languages. I know it works for arabic, because the tasbeha in Arabic fits so closely to the Coptic tune. But.. i'm not sure for English.
If it works - fine.. but I've never tried it in any language other than arabic myself. See.. i tried it with Teno-wee enthok. I learnt this in Arabic. Whenever I say the coptic of this particular hymn, I find myself praying easily... and without having to remember what the meaning is. The rest of the tasbeha, unfortunately, i learnt it in Coptic 1st from CD's... and then I learnt the meaning afterwards. :(
But it only works BECAUSE we learnt it directly in arabic, and know it off by heart in arabic. Even if we say it in Coptic, what I'm praying in IS arabic.
I solved all your problems for u. Maged is going to be really happy about this.
FIRST, that would not be the answer. WHY, becasue that doesn't tell you the, what so called, "DANGERS OF COPTIC". that just tell's you a way to solve that problem that was brought up by you and kept being answer through all of these 5 pages, but you, by choise, ignoring them.
SECOND, [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92499#msg92499 date=1215628010] Secondly, she insists that its IMPERATIVE to teach the children the meaning of the songs. Metropolitan Anba Bishoy praised her for how she was teaching the children in her sunday school. He even took a picture of her, and said to her "I've never seen a brilliant teacher like u".
I NEVER SAID its not imperative....all i said is that teaching CHRISTOLOGY and similar things, that you used it as an example for the trisagion, is not right for little kids.
ALL i said, and made clear that there are limited info that should be given to a person throught her/his life. too much or to little of it for a certain age is not right.
with all do respect, that servant you are talking about will not like all the glory you are giving her right now on this post.....if she did, then she would be nothing of what you are saying......
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92501#msg92501 date=1215630941] FIRST, that would not be the answer. WHY, becasue that doesn't tell you the, what so called, "DANGERS OF COPTIC". that just tell's you a way to solve that problem that was brought up by you and kept being answer through all of these 5 pages, but you, by choise, ignoring them.
I don't understand a word of the above sentence.
SECOND, I NEVER SAID its not imperative....all i said is that teaching CHRISTOLOGY and similar things, that you used it as an example for the trisagion, is not right for little kids.
ALL i said, and made clear that there are limited info that should be given to a person throught her/his life. too much or to little of it for a certain age is not right.
OK. But she would insist that the meaning be taught. Do u see the point i'm making here? And the result of understanding the meaning is in fact a help in understanding the Coptic Faith whether it be christological or any aspect of Divinity.
with all do respect, that servant you are talking about will not like all the glory you are giving her right now on this post.....if she did, then she would be nothing of what you are saying......
She doesn't read tasbeha.org, so she doesnt know that I posted our conversation.
Personally Mina, i think we made a lot of progress. I see now that u can pray in Coptic ONLY when u know the meaning first in the language that u speak naturally.
I promised Maged to stick to the topic, and I want to do that as he's kindly allowed this topic to exist. So, I'm going to lock it.
So I will summarise the topic, and lock it so it remains respectable and doesn't dissolve into endless dispute. If the admin wish to unlock it to continue the discussion, they are more than welcome to do so.
This thread arose from the concern that its extremely hard, if not impossible to sing in Coptic and correlate the meaning at the same time. This problem is probably relevant to those, like myself, who learnt Coptic through CD's or MP3's, but not as a language in its own right.
THe importance of knowing the meaning was discussed in this thread, and I think its fair to say that singing anything without understanding is not as beneficial as understanding it.
There is a way however, of singing in Coptic, and being able to pray at the same time. The way was put forward by a senior Church servent. She suggested the idea of learning the tasbeha or hymn in your own language first, and learn it well. Then, if u sing it in Coptic, u will still find yourself praying in your native language. THis way, there is no confusion when u pray.
This answer satisfies my needs. I did not see such a response from anyone before. As far as I know, we all seem to have learnt Coptic first and then correlated the meaning afterwards. The most efficient way to pray is to do the opposite. This clearly works with the arabic language as the arabic language fits quite closely to the Coptic tune being used. I cannot say whether this works well for English or French, but it will help.
I'll try and let u know.
The dangers of praying in a language without understanding the meaning of what u are singing/saying is dangerous. This was addressed. How can God's Words cleanse our hearts if we do not understand them?? Its the same as reading the Bible backwards, or with all the words in a muddled up order. Yes, they are still God's words, but the idea is that we understand them for them to work in our hearts.
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou nem Bac>[/coptic] Dear all and Vas, [coptic]Pihwc (w ni,oroc tyrou `nnivyou`i) `mmon pe `nouhwc etou]ersisi an e;be ]anactacyc : aly;wc gar e;be vai `mmon `hli av[ie;myci `ntefmev`i ouoh `ntefhwc `mpihwc (Kata ni,oroc) ie (W nim nai) ouoh e;be vai av;amio `mpaihwc vai ouoh ;ai acswpi qen se`nrompi etcini (kata ]mev`i)[/coptic] The hymn "ya kol el sefoof" is not an official hymn for Resurrection; in actual fact because no one was interested to learn and sing "[coptic]Kata ni,oroc[/coptic]" or "[coptic]w nim nai[/coptic]" so that hymn was made up and that was in the last century (as I think) [coptic]Ke de moust on pe niapoctatyc qen se`nrompi etcini avouos `nnouj ebolha nihwc `nrem`n<ymi nem ]acpi de nem `n,ai niben etvac ouoh ersebiwten nem nihwc `nrem`narapi`a e;be pi`slol ce`semi[/coptic] Another opinion is that the protestants in the previous century wanted to do away with Coptic hymns and and Coptic language and every thing relating to it and replace it with Arabic so that the congration can sing [coptic]Taicpera ;ai autwmt qen pinis] `n]metref]oube ebolhiten Cn. Rageb Moftah nem nimei `n]acpi `nrem`n<ymi - e;be vai ]ouos `n]ho eouon niben `ncenouj ebol an `ntenacpi ie `n,ai niben etvac[/coptic] That movement was met with strong opposition from Dr. Ragheb Moftah with the lovers of the Coptic language - therefore I would like to ask every one not to discard our language or anything relating to it [coptic]qen `tqa`e `mperer`pwbs `mmon qen ten`proceu,y[/coptic] At last, don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
Once this topic came up in Church, and I told others to "GO AWAY and NOT EVEN COME TO OUR CHURCH if they are going to change our language". I was around 16 years old at the time.
Now I'm older, I've discovered that prayer is important. Just prayer.
Apparently, other priests have also arrived at this conclusion. There are masses on sunday.. EVERY SUNDAY, in many Churches now in the Diaspora where the priests REFUSE to pray in Coptic.
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou nem Bac>[/coptic] Dear all and dear Vas, [coptic]ni`n,ai etsorp qen pisorp - nofri niapostolos sai[/coptic] First things first - happy apostles' feast [coptic]e;be Bac : tcwoun je hanmys `nni`precbetyroc `nor;odoxoc ceouws an `n]acpi `nrem`n<ymi alla ]meu`i kata pieuanggelion efjw `mmoc je Pi`=p=n=a =e=;=b ef`tcabon ou tenemi an qen ten`proceu,y - [ihyt je cecaji qen oukeacpi `cermynin an je `nouon `semi `n,ai niben ouoh mentoi `kcwoun pimona.oc vyetcwtem `nca pefiwt `ntefmose `nhanmys `ncop `epiiom `ntefraqc `nje ]met`;li[/coptic] To Vas: I know that some Orthodox priests don't want the Coptic language but I think according to the Bible, that says the Holy Spirit teaches us what we don't understand in our prayers - be careful that speaking in any other language doesn't mean that one can understand everything, and of course you know the monk who obeyed his father and toed and froed many times to and from the sea to wash his colander [coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
Comments
Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
no hymn of one tune is one hour. the longest hymn/tun/praise in our church is teoi enhi-kanos the great is the longest....about 30 mins.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92457#msg92457 date=1215571462]
No. Our faith is beyond language. Look at the British Orthodox Church. Look at the Armenian Orthodox Church. Look at the Syrian Orthodox Church. They are not tied to the Coptic language. They are tied down to the Coptic Faith.
if am not mistaken, the British church language is ENGLISH, DUHHHHH....
now go to the other church and check out their hymns IN THEIR languages.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6868.msg92463#msg92463 date=1215573383]
Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
no hymn of one tune is one hour. the longest hymn/tun/praise in our church is teoi enhi-kanos the great is the longest....about 30 mins.
Yes I know, i was speaking as in an example, sorry
Hisservant, you must realize that if this hymn is one hour that it must have many melisma, therefore if nobody is paying attention regardless of the language they will not comprehend it, Thats what is so great about Holy Week hymns, they are long and you are able to meditate on the hymn. Thats not selfish at all. If I sing the psalm in english, do you honestly think people will understand it more than if i sing it in coptic and they meditate on it regardless?
Listen, this topic is about the ability to pray in a foreign language to us. Now, I want to stick to this topic, and not get sidetracked as i think the admins are patient so far.
Look. Here are a few facts:
LONG HYMNS... i mean, really long hymns like psalms sung in Passion week in COPTIC are easy to pray from. I mean, they can stay in Coptic. Why? Because not only are they translated, but whilst someone is singing them, we can not only meditate on it, but also, read the Bible and prophesies of that hour deeper when hearing such beautiful melodies that help us contemplate. There is no question here. Its spot on. Coptic will not die if its hymns are used in this context.
As for learning Coptic as a language - i am with Maged 110% on this. I do not care for the words or language as a language: I care to just pray: i.e. i'll get an MP3 of the hymn, and know its meaning as far as possible. Its too late for me in that, no, i'm young, but there is NO time in my life to learn another language.
I learnt arabic JUST to sing with the CHurch during khiahk. I mean, i learnt it so fast, that I read the Bible in arabic IN church!!! :D (YAY!!).
How did I learn? I started off with a book called "Amal, Omar wa Bissbiss il otta". THen I got a teach yourself arabic book. It took me from the the Ahram newspaper to the Quran. (OK.. but it was a book to learn arabic.).
Do such materials exist for the Coptic language??? Such ressources? Whenever i'd read arabic, I'd ask my parents what this word means, or that word.. who can i ask for Coptic to help me with grammer??? A website?? There's only so much a website can teach u. There is NOT ONE person in my Church in France that speaks Coptic. Sure, they all read it. I read it! But, no one who actually speaks it. Yet we all sing and pray to God in it!?
I agree also that there should be liturgies in the language of the country of diaspora combined with coptic, yet there should also be a liturgy in arabic-coptic for in most coptic communities many people speak arabic...
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92457#msg92457 date=1215571462]
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=6868.msg92419#msg92419 date=1215487543]
besdies if they left for arabic then they have major issues,
Yes. I agree here. THere is nothing more beautiful than the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy. If people leave because of language then they have major issues. Very true. However, its not because of language that they will leave. But they will probably find another CoC that doesn't use Coptic to an extent that it becomes hard to pray. That's all. Coptic simply means Egyptian. Doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong. Egypt, if you look carefully on any map (or even on your passport), is called the "Arab Republic of Egypt". Now, u may not consider yourself an "arab", but your government does.
This also raises the issue of integration of Copts within Egypt. If Coptic Christians (who are born and raised in Egypt) start denying their national language in favour of Coptic, wouldn't that result in lack of integration? I don't think this is wise. But ask abouna. I just get the feeling that this animosity towards Arab Egypt is a rejection of Islam, rather than an acceptance of your national identity.
I'm not rebelling against arabic, I think it's a beautiful language and I'm really glad I know it. However, it's a fact that we are (most of us) not of arabic descent (thus not from the Arabic peninsula) but from ancient Egyptian descent. And so are many muslims living in Egypt (copts who converted to Islam). All Egyptians (muslims and christians) take pride in the glorious history of Egypt. Yet for us COPTS the COPTIC language has a special place in our hearts (well, for most of us at least), it's not out of rebellion but more out of awareness of the early christians in Egypt, the persecution, how much it took so today we would still be christians with the true orthodox faith...
So I don't see the point of your discussion frankly, since we already pointed out the dangers of praying in a language you don't understand: simply you will not benefit from it.
But if you're suggesting putting away with coptic as you think it's not important in our church then I will have to disagree with you. COPTIC is part of the COPTIC orthodox church. If it were up to me, all copts would learn coptic and be able to follow the liturgy in coptic and to read the letters of St Athanasius and tasbeha etc...., but since that's practically impossible, we should AT LEAST try to preserve it and not just throw it away because we're not willing to bother at all
Besides tasbeha shouldn't be the only time you pray.. so even if you don't benefit from it as much as you'd like then you should make the effort to pray it in your language afterwards (if you think it's so difficult to learn the meaning of it before saying it..)
God Bless
Please pray for
if you read the initial post of this thread, it explains the relevance. This discussion was sidetracked in proving to others that one cannot sing the tasbeha in Coptic whilst at the same time pray the meaning. U can only do one or the other. Especially in long hymns such as Teoi Enhikanos, or any of the Hoss's.
So, what was the question? It was to know if we suffer because we have been praying (or I have been praying if this only applies to me) in Coptic FOR SOOO LONG that i've only saturated 10% of the meaning. So, if the tasbeha i attended lasted for 2 hours (from Ten-Thino to Neknai O Panoti) - and it was in Coptic. If I only knew 10% of the meaning whilst singing, what effect did that have on my spiritual life???
Correlating the meaning with the Coptic words was a solution put forward, but if this works for u, fine! it doesn't work for me. What did work for me was to stop singing and read the meaning in English/French whilst letting those around me sing.
So, at the end of the day, i felt the existence of Coptic was preventing me from praying. The meaning is brilliant. But its very hard to enjoy both. Like I said, i truly envy the likes of Ophadece who is fluent in Coptic. If he thinks and reasons in Coptic, then he will enjoy the tasbeha more and benefit more.
The thread is about the dangers of continuing to pray without knowing the meaning. Of course, most people's attitude is like mine: "I don't understand this verse, but I'll read it later when I get home". However, during the tasbeha, the time we devote to praising God, is not fully utilised in praise. Its seems to be just singing what we've learnt from CD's.
This thread also asked the Coptic congregation ways in which they themselves found useful in memorising the translated text? I, for one, do find it a bit of a problem memorising the Coptic with the english. For the 1st four or five verses from any hoss, i probably know the meaning, but more than that... i'm lost.
What techniques do people use to memorise the meaning??
And if we sing in Coptic, yet say the meaning simultaneously in our heads, is there a danger that THIS is distracting us from prayer, as it requires more mental power, than spiritual concentration power?? My mind is devoted to recalling the meaning of what I'm singing in Coptic than actually using my complete concentration to pray directly.
I know my English is poor, but I really hope i've explained this well enough for you to see the problem here.
But it seems like you want us to stop using coptic in church, which is something I can't agree with. It also requires much effort from me to know the meaning while singing, but it's possible, if you're really doing your best, that's just my point of view..
God Bless
Please pray for me
I think the best person to ansewr this question would be a priest: he would know the effects of having spent 80% of my life in Church singing Coptic hymns and only understanding 10% of it.
I feel my life was wasted.
I am blessed that I go to a church that does the Tasbeha in all three languages. Our church forms two separate groups, one sings one to two verses, then the other group takes over, and we change up. This gives us time to read what the others are saying, what we said, and to meditate on those words. Vas, I understand your problem, I used to feel the same way when my church only did hymns and Tasbeha, and even the liturgy in just Coptic and Arabic. But because our population grew and we have a lot of native English speakers, it changed. Just give it time, wait for your church to grow, and gradually they will open up to singing the Tasbeha in a language you understand. While this may take a while, I would recommend you buy a book, or even just look at the powerpoints that are online, which have all 3 languages on them, and when they are singing, glance quickly on the other language so you can take in what you are saying. Do not be discouraged, rather relax, smile, sing, and be full of joy that you have the opportunity to sing praises unto our God, in any language at all.
That's my two cents. God Bless.
No. Listen my friend. THere IS a problem here.
I believe in the power of prayer. Not in the power of melodies. When u sing in Coptic and you do not correlate the meaning in your head WHILST you are singing, u are not praying.
So, what is the problem?
I was doing the tasbeha in English with these two deacons at Church. They got so angry they started to swear at me. I mean, it was very abusive.
Do u think that if they honestly were praying they would have sworn at me?? If the words of the tasbeha penetrated their hearts, would they have insulted my mother?? Do u think that its possible?? I don't think so.
I think they enjoy more the melody, and the meaning is taken away. It is God's word that we sing during the tasbeha. Christ said that "u are now pure because of my Word" - so, His words are meant to cleanse us. Not melodies. Yes.. the melodies, tunes etc are brilliant.. but do u see the danger?? If u say :"Don't worry about not understanding" - U are preventing people from praying. This is EXACTLY what worries me. That when u pray without understanding, u think u are gaining a blessing!???
Its like someone reading the bible backwards. Its still God's words, and surely we are getting a blessing by saying them - even though it doesn't make any sense when we say them backwards, or muddled up.
Not at all. As I said, in the tasbeha, we are singing the Bible. We are allowing God's words to penetrate our heart.
When Moses Crossed the Red Sea, rather than read this story in the Bible, we can sing it in Khen Oshot, and the tune of Khen O-shot really gives more life to the scenario taking place: The waters divided...
Yes, its truly a work of art - the Coptic Tasbeha.. IF you put meaning before beauty.
If i just focus on the alhan, and say as u said : I will end up spiritually dead. Really!! I've been there.
Its wrong. Your argument, my friend, was that at least we are gaining some blessing by being in Church. Yes. That's true.. but u are gaining the same blessing just by being in CHurch sitting quietly, and praying in your heart.. or just sitting quietly in AWE because its the house of God!!!
No no... this is dangerous what u've written SilentOne. The Holy Spirit helps us to pray. It is the Spirit of Understanding . Isn't it?? So, how can we pray without understanding, and think that we've gained from this?? If u have understood the words, the melody becomes less of a priority, and what supersedes is glorification to the Holy Trinity.
Please, i urge u to reconsider what you've said, and see that praise without ANY understanding of its meaning is, in my opinion, even a step in the wrong direction with respect to how we respect God. Its my feelings. And I am someone who knows the tasbeha off by heart (upsalmodaya) - end to end. But, I do not know the meaning off by heart. That's the only problem.
When we were children, our parents and fellow church members taught us how to pray our Father, Agios o Theos, and dozens of prayers. Did we understand them then? No. However, it was a door opening for us, to further explore and understand these prayers. When we are in Tasbeha, consider ourselves as children, opening a new doorway of praise. It took time for us to understand our Father, yes? It will take time to understand the Tasbeha in its entirety. I cannot emphasize enough though, do not let that be a hindrance to your spiritual life. Instead of feeling empty or sad, rather use the tasbeha to increase your spiritual life. You've said you cannot, because you do not comprehend. Take some time out during the tasbeha, to learn a few lines. Just take a small break every now and then, surely they won't yell at you, at least I hope they wouldn't. Vas, do not take me wrong here, I feel the same way you do. When I'm singing in Coptic or Arabic I do not fully understand what I'm saying and I do not feel that I'm praying, and that is a problem to me, but I am trying. I am like a kid learning to ride a bicycle. When I get up on it, I fall. But I will keep trying until I can comprehend how to ride the bicycle (the meaning) and eventually I will succeed. It's hard, yes, I'm not denying that, but you are not the only one who feels this way and do not think everyone on here is against you, in fact, I believe most people here have also felt this way before. I think it's just the meaning of our posts that are being misread.
Because look:
You said :" .
Now, that's very true.. but as u said, we learnt this as kids yet we didn't understand then (at that moment)!? But.. how MUCH MORE would we have benefitted as kids HAD we understood Agios Otheos straight-away! This hymn would have taught us a lot of Christology!
How much more would we have understood the Old Testament had we understood the meaning of the tasbeha when we were kids rather than just us learning the hymn in the hope of learning the meaning at a later date
Do u see now the dangers??
Now SilentOne, this has now turned into a very intelligent conversation since u arrived.
Because look:
You said :" .
Now, that's very true.. but as u said, we learnt this as kids yet we didn't understand then (at that moment)!? But.. how MUCH MORE would we have benefitted as kids HAD we understood Agios Otheos straight-away! This hymn would have taught us a lot of Christology!
How much more would we have understood the Old Testament had we understood the meaning of the tasbeha when we were kids rather than just us learning the hymn in the hope of learning the meaning at a later date
Do u see now the dangers??
NO. the danger right now is that there are just the likes of you that just want EVERYTHING. who do you think you are......GOD gives people as He thinks they need to have. If you do your part and let Him work in you, and you still don't do what ever you're trying to explain here, then he just doesn't want you.
I AM FULLY againts teaching little children to much of our church rites hymns...etc. FULLY against it. the fact that the child will learn all of those things at one time, in a young age just makes what he learned to be just second nature....which when he is old enough, teenage years, he will ignore all of these things or even treat them as just part of their daily lives.
Our human minds are not the same from the time of our birth. knowledge is given according to the development of someones mind. A child would easly learn the trisagion as a hymn (i don't mind kids learning hymns even hard long ones), when he/she is old enough to learn it's meaning, he will and he will respect it enough.
Vassilios, there will be NO VALID answer that you'll get for your what so called, an important question.....5 pages of text, nothing answered......and still no one would.
Instead of learning the meanings of each verse, verse by verse, let's begin by learning the meanings of the song in general. I am not saying to ignore the meanings of the verses, no that's against what you and I said. But it's a beginning. If I know the third canticle (oh sing unto him) is a song beseeching everyone to sing praises unto our God first, then it will be easier for me to learn the meanings of each verse as I continue to learn. What I'm saying is, we should do this in small steps. Learning the meaning of each verse will be very hard, but if we start small, we will be like the baby who takes small steps, gradually learns to walk, walks, jogs, sprints, then runs at full speed. It takes time, but once we pass these steps, Tasbeha will be much more enjoyable and precious in our hearts and it will increase our spiritual life in such an unspeakable way.
I have the answer!!!
Lol...
THere is an answer.. but its too late for me to benefit from it.
Here it is:
Learn the tasbeha in the language of your choice. Know it off by heart in the language of your choice. THEN LEARN THE COPTIC!!!
THat way, u can pray.
The coptic doesn't die. U can still pray, and everyone's a happy camper.
If u learn the Tasbeha FIRST in the language u know well... u will listen to the Coptic,a nd the meaning will be easy to correlate!!! But the other way around doesn't work.
OK people. That's the answer.
Ask me how I found out??? JUST ASK ME!
THere is an answer.. but its too late for me to benefit from it.
Why is it too late to benefit from it?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92494#msg92494 date=1215627046]
THere is an answer.. but its too late for me to benefit from it.
Why is it too late to benefit from it?
Its too late for me, because I know it so well in Coptic. I mean.. i should have started to learn it in French, and THEN Coptic afterwards.
I know all the tasbeha in Coptic. If i start to do it in French, then the Coptic will always be what I say to myself, and I can never correlate the meaning.
Its too late for me. The Coptic is stuck in my head!!!
But ask me how I know all this!!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92497#msg92497 date=1215627514]
Ask me how i found out!?
How?
I get this PM from the wife of the head of the sunday school. We are good friends and we chat.
I tell her:
"Hey, do u think its wise to sing in a language we do not understand?"
She says :"yes.. u mean Coptic - of course!".
I said "But..how? Surely the meaning is what is important for u? When U pray the tasbeha, do u understand what u are saying in Coptic?"
She said "Ahh... I learnt the tasbeha in ARABIC 1st!! That's very important. When I put Coptic ontop of what I know, i'm still praying the words in Arabic, but singing it in Coptic".
And I agree with her - because there are a few hymns from the tasbeha that I know in Arabic, and i do say it to myself in arabic.. but the rest.. the Coptic is all i hear in my head.
Secondly, she insists that its IMPERATIVE to teach the children the meaning of the songs. Metropolitan Anba Bishoy praised her for how she was teaching the children in her sunday school. He even took a picture of her, and said to her "I've never seen a brilliant teacher like u".
No no.. the meaning is imperative to the kids (minagir -FYI!).
But.. guys.. u have the answer!!!
This will work for ANYTHING: The mass, the tasbeha... hymns.. etc.
U get to save the Coptic language and melodies that way.
This lady is a saint. Trust me.
So, basically, I know that u will be eager to do the hymn in Coptic, but u need to be patient. Practice the hymn FIRST in the language u are accustomed to. Do it many times so u know the meaning... then, learn the Coptic of it. That way, u will be praying easily.
If it works - fine.. but I've never tried it in any language other than arabic myself. See.. i tried it with Teno-wee enthok. I learnt this in Arabic. Whenever I say the coptic of this particular hymn, I find myself praying easily... and without having to remember what the meaning is. The rest of the tasbeha, unfortunately, i learnt it in Coptic 1st from CD's... and then I learnt the meaning afterwards. :(
But it only works BECAUSE we learnt it directly in arabic, and know it off by heart in arabic. Even if we say it in Coptic, what I'm praying in IS arabic.
I solved all your problems for u. Maged is going to be really happy about this.
SECOND,
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92499#msg92499 date=1215628010]
Secondly, she insists that its IMPERATIVE to teach the children the meaning of the songs. Metropolitan Anba Bishoy praised her for how she was teaching the children in her sunday school. He even took a picture of her, and said to her "I've never seen a brilliant teacher like u".
I NEVER SAID its not imperative....all i said is that teaching CHRISTOLOGY and similar things, that you used it as an example for the trisagion, is not right for little kids.
ALL i said, and made clear that there are limited info that should be given to a person throught her/his life. too much or to little of it for a certain age is not right.
with all do respect, that servant you are talking about will not like all the glory you are giving her right now on this post.....if she did, then she would be nothing of what you are saying......
FIRST, that would not be the answer. WHY, becasue that doesn't tell you the, what so called, "DANGERS OF COPTIC". that just tell's you a way to solve that problem that was brought up by you and kept being answer through all of these 5 pages, but you, by choise, ignoring them.
I don't understand a word of the above sentence. OK. But she would insist that the meaning be taught. Do u see the point i'm making here? And the result of understanding the meaning is in fact a help in understanding the Coptic Faith whether it be christological or any aspect of Divinity. She doesn't read tasbeha.org, so she doesnt know that I posted our conversation.
Personally Mina, i think we made a lot of progress. I see now that u can pray in Coptic ONLY when u know the meaning first in the language that u speak naturally.
I promised Maged to stick to the topic, and I want to do that as he's kindly allowed this topic to exist. So, I'm going to lock it.
So I will summarise the topic, and lock it so it remains respectable and doesn't dissolve into endless dispute. If the admin wish to unlock it to continue the discussion, they are more than welcome to do so.
This thread arose from the concern that its extremely hard, if not impossible to sing in Coptic and correlate the meaning at the same time. This problem is probably relevant to those, like myself, who learnt Coptic through CD's or MP3's, but not as a language in its own right.
THe importance of knowing the meaning was discussed in this thread, and I think its fair to say that singing anything without understanding is not as beneficial as understanding it.
There is a way however, of singing in Coptic, and being able to pray at the same time. The way was put forward by a senior Church servent. She suggested the idea of learning the tasbeha or hymn in your own language first, and learn it well. Then, if u sing it in Coptic, u will still find yourself praying in your native language. THis way, there is no confusion when u pray.
This answer satisfies my needs. I did not see such a response from anyone before. As far as I know, we all seem to have learnt Coptic first and then correlated the meaning afterwards. The most efficient way to pray is to do the opposite. This clearly works with the arabic language as the arabic language fits quite closely to the Coptic tune being used. I cannot say whether this works well for English or French, but it will help.
I'll try and let u know.
The dangers of praying in a language without understanding the meaning of what u are singing/saying is dangerous. This was addressed. How can God's Words cleanse our hearts if we do not understand them?? Its the same as reading the Bible backwards, or with all the words in a muddled up order. Yes, they are still God's words, but the idea is that we understand them for them to work in our hearts.
Thanks.
Thanks
Dear all and Vas,
[coptic]Pihwc (w ni,oroc tyrou `nnivyou`i) `mmon pe `nouhwc etou]ersisi an e;be ]anactacyc : aly;wc gar e;be vai `mmon `hli av[ie;myci `ntefmev`i ouoh `ntefhwc `mpihwc (Kata ni,oroc) ie (W nim nai) ouoh e;be vai av;amio `mpaihwc vai ouoh ;ai acswpi qen se`nrompi etcini (kata ]mev`i)[/coptic]
The hymn "ya kol el sefoof" is not an official hymn for Resurrection; in actual fact because no one was interested to learn and sing "[coptic]Kata ni,oroc[/coptic]" or "[coptic]w nim nai[/coptic]" so that hymn was made up and that was in the last century (as I think)
[coptic]Ke de moust on pe niapoctatyc qen se`nrompi etcini avouos `nnouj ebolha nihwc `nrem`n<ymi nem ]acpi de nem `n,ai niben etvac ouoh ersebiwten nem nihwc `nrem`narapi`a e;be pi`slol ce`semi[/coptic]
Another opinion is that the protestants in the previous century wanted to do away with Coptic hymns and and Coptic language and every thing relating to it and replace it with Arabic so that the congration can sing
[coptic]Taicpera ;ai autwmt qen pinis] `n]metref]oube ebolhiten Cn. Rageb Moftah nem nimei `n]acpi `nrem`n<ymi - e;be vai ]ouos `n]ho eouon niben `ncenouj ebol an `ntenacpi ie `n,ai niben etvac[/coptic]
That movement was met with strong opposition from Dr. Ragheb Moftah with the lovers of the Coptic language - therefore I would like to ask every one not to discard our language or anything relating to it
[coptic]qen `tqa`e `mperer`pwbs `mmon qen ten`proceu,y[/coptic]
At last, don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
Once this topic came up in Church, and I told others to "GO AWAY and NOT EVEN COME TO OUR CHURCH if they are going to change our language". I was around 16 years old at the time.
Now I'm older, I've discovered that prayer is important. Just prayer.
Apparently, other priests have also arrived at this conclusion. There are masses on sunday.. EVERY SUNDAY, in many Churches now in the Diaspora where the priests REFUSE to pray in Coptic.
Now.. go figure.
Do u want their email addresses?
Dear all and dear Vas,
[coptic]ni`n,ai etsorp qen pisorp - nofri niapostolos sai[/coptic]
First things first - happy apostles' feast
[coptic]e;be Bac : tcwoun je hanmys `nni`precbetyroc `nor;odoxoc ceouws an `n]acpi `nrem`n<ymi alla ]meu`i kata pieuanggelion efjw `mmoc je Pi`=p=n=a =e=;=b ef`tcabon ou tenemi an qen ten`proceu,y - [ihyt je cecaji qen oukeacpi `cermynin an je `nouon `semi `n,ai niben ouoh mentoi `kcwoun pimona.oc vyetcwtem `nca pefiwt `ntefmose `nhanmys `ncop `epiiom `ntefraqc `nje ]met`;li[/coptic]
To Vas: I know that some Orthodox priests don't want the Coptic language but I think according to the Bible, that says the Holy Spirit teaches us what we don't understand in our prayers - be careful that speaking in any other language doesn't mean that one can understand everything, and of course you know the monk who obeyed his father and toed and froed many times to and from the sea to wash his colander
[coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]