Pentecost Sagda Prayers

edited June 2014 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hi does anyone have an English translation of the Kneeling/Prostration prayers that include the bits that were removed? Ie. A version of the sagda prayers that matches the theology of the other Orthodox Churches?


  • I couldn't find an unmodified version of the prayers, but here is the decision from the synod that says what was removed. I would love if someone could post an unmodified version of the prayers too for the sake of comparison:

    In the meeting of 29/5/1999:

    The Holy Synod decided to remove the following three phrases from the Rite of the Kneeling Prayers, in the Third Litany:

    1) "and also You absolve it and take it to that place [Paradise]"
    2) "those who are in Hades now, we have the hope that You will absolve all those who are in various sufferings..."
    "for those who are dead do not praise You, and those who are in Hades
    do not confess You, but we the living" (implying that we intercede for
  • I have a pdf of a ppt home. Let me get back there to upload
  • Ekhrestos anesty
    @aiernovi and all,
    What's the problem of us interceding for those who died? I can't understand point number 3..
  • Indeed He is Risen.

    On a side note, there's a beautiful meditation on the Prostration prayers at Fr Steven Freeman's blog:

    I wonder what it means for us now that the prayers have been removed since 1999 :s ?
  • I hope it returns. It's really nothing but contemporary theological speculation that has no regard for tradition and Patristic in depth study.
  • edited June 2014
    Actually, I like the change. aiernovi didn't translate the sentence after the decisions:
    His Holiness [Pope Shenouda] commented on what was omitted in the third prayer of the Sagda saying that the transforming/moving from Hades to Paradise is not possible after the completion of the redemption and after those who were transferred by Jesus Christ Himself. Even at that time, transferring was only possible for the saints of the Old Testament and not for anyone in the New Testament.

    So it's not about intercessions to the dead it's about saying that those who are in Hades may, by prayers, be transformed to Paradise. Which is totally incorrect.

    and as promised...sagda pptpdf is attached. 
  • Thank you so much minatasgeel :)

    minasoliman I agree.

    "Love could not bear that..."


    "Today is the day of Resurrection...

    We celebrate the death of death, the destruction of hell, the beginning of eternal life. And leaping for joy, we celebrate the Cause, the only blessed and most glorious God of our fathers...

    Today the Master conquered hell and raised the prisoners from all the ages which it had held in bitter bondage..."
  • Ekhrestos anesty,
    Of course what aiernovi translated a part of the psalm so that's not what was taken out, or was it? Secondly is the redemption a continuous process or one of the past that ended? I believe it's the former. If someone dies and he has lived a corrupt life in our eyes, are we to judge? Also how come in commemoration we mention both saints from the old and new testaments? I mean how certain are we the ones we have hailed as saints have been redeemed by God? How much knowledge do we have? And therefore how much hope?
  • edited June 2014
    Like I said, contemporary theological speculation that has no regard for tradition and Patristic in depth study. With all due respect to HH, there is Patristic evidence that one can pray for those in Hades to go to Paradise. It would not exist in the Sagda for centuries if that wasn't the case. One had to ask the question why and how was in the Sagda. Probably because the Coptic Church did in fact believe prayers for those in Hades can have an effect on getting them to Paradise.
  • edited June 2014 me, a very simple minded-person when it comes to theological and patristic studies, that sounds that Hades is a place similar to purgatory. Also, we were always taught that once one dies, he either goes to hades or paradise until judgement day. 
    What you are saying is kind of far from what we have been taught for sometime so it would be great if we can get some sources. you are just playing around with the word redemption which HHPS used. the Economy of Salvation was completed by Christ. WE ARE in a continuous form of return to God but not actual salvation where we were once in Hades and moved to Paradise.
    Also, we do not anything about those who died. We will always pray on them (except of course if they died in sin publicly) but nothing in a funeral prayers says that we if they are in Hades, please take them up to heaven. Let's concentrate on the words of the prayer that are omitted instead of just throwing words just for the sake of argument.....
  • edited June 2014
    The idea of purgatory is that the fire is redemptive; the fearful expectations of hades are self-inflicted and there is nothing redeeming about them.

    The whole point of the prayers of the Church is that somehow there is a way what through intercession a soul which would ordinarily might have been lost could find grace in God's eyes.  The fear and terror of the individual in hades is real but its not final; not until the judgement where God will decide once and for all.

    There is a story that Fr Bishoy from CYC tells that illustrates this very well.  

    There was a brash youth who was handsome and wealthy and all the women he knew wanted to marry him.  Fr Bishoy went to visit him one day and talked with him about God.  The young man was too enamoured with how much he was enjoying life to pay any attention to what Fr Bishoy was saying.  Fr Bishoy pressed him and said, "what if God were to take you now while you're young?" The young man said, "easy, I would repent then and there."  So Fr Bishoy figured the young man was too self assured and left him to his own devices.

    Anyhow a time passed and a man came one day to Fr Bishoy and said "Father, do you remember me?" He looked at the man and didn't really remember who he was.  He said "I'm the man that you came to and warned me about repentance and the spiritual life but i didn't listen."  Fr Bishoy strained and then had a vague recollection of the discussion and the young man went to tell his story.

    He said he was having an operation one day and some sort of a complication occurred and his heart stopped.  The man then felt himself coming out of his body and he felt himself flying up into the sky with great speed.  He said that he flew up until the earth looked so small and distant.  The he went into a place that was deep, dark and fearful. It was full of people and their faces were ugly with an unimaginable ugliness.  There were sounds of fear, crying and weeping ringing through this dark dark place.  It struck the man what had happened to him and the place that he now was and he started to implore God to remember the good things he had done. Sadly there were very few of those as the youth had realised that he deserved to be where he was. He then turned to the only thing that he could think of and asked God to remember, even if works weren't any good, the prayers of his parents; he then implored God again and asked him to remember the prayers of His mother the Virgin and it was then that a voice said to him "Ok, I will give you one more chance."

    He then felt himself speeding back into his body and he awoke.  Since then he was a man of virtue who had a family but that experience so badly torments him to this day that he is terrified of darkness and cannot sleep in any room without a child's night light.

    This story shows that a man's fate when he descends to the deep dark place (sheol or hades) cannot be changed from within, they have done all that they have done.  The only thing which can now influence their destiny is the prayers of those outside, particularly those of the saints.  

    It is the experience of the Church that our prayers do indeed influence the fate of souls in the prison and there are stories like this where souls were either given another chance or were transferring into life because of the mercies of God finding an opportunity in the intercession of the saints.  If the final judgement has not happened then we should trust the mercy of God that by combining our prayers with those of the saints there may be some who may have erred at the last moment while perhaps leading a virtuous life that God may pardon on our account.  This is why these prayers are some important and should be remembered by the Church at every moment.
  • Ekhrestos anesty
    I sense that I've annoyed you greatly. I'm sorry. If you're annoyed take a break from my posts. I'm not playing with words for the sake of the argument. I'm more in the position of @minasoliman..
  • edited June 2014
    @minatasgeel the pdf doesn't include the missing bits :S Based on @aiernovi's note maybe the parts are:

    Byzantine Prayers

    Coptic Prayers

    You measure out the years for the living and set times of death, bringing down to Hades and raising up, fettering in weakness and liberating in power; You provide aptly for the present and fittingly dispose what is to come, restoring those who are wounded by the sting of death with the hope of resurrection.

    You give existence to man and he lives and You bring death upon him with Your dominion.

    (1)"and also You absolve it and take it to that place [Paradise]"

    You overcame the sting of death that it may not have power over the believers nor on those who look forward to the resurrection of the dead.



    On this universal and salutary feast, deign to accept petitions

    for those imprisoned in Hades, thus giving us great hope, and relief to the departed from their grievous distress and Your comfort.

    We supplicate to You to accept our prayers on this sacred Day.

    (2)"for those who are in Hades now, we have the hope that You will absolve all those who are in various sufferings...”

    Grant perfection to us and repose to those who commended their souls into Your hands.



    ...counting them worthy of peace and repose; 

    for the dead do not praise You, Lord, nor do those in Hades dare to offer You glory, but it is we the living 

    who bless and entreat You and offer You propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls.

    Make them worthy of peaceful rest and of forgiveness of sins

    (3)"for those who are dead do not praise You, and those who are in Hades do not confess You, but we the living…"

    praise You and thank You and offer You these prayers and these sacrifices for the sake of our souls.
  • Does anyone have a translated version of the pre-1999 version that we can compare against?
  • @cyril I'd say just looking at the Byzantine renderings that your guesstimation would be pretty much spot on...
  • There also seems to be an extended version that may have been truncated. 

    In the St Mary Kitchener's publication ( ):

    It mentions a continuation of the prayer found in a manuscript by Oswald H. E. Burmester (The office of Genuflection, Le Muséon 47, 1934).
    This extended section continues the Third Prostration prayer with:

    "Thou Master, in truth, art the Great Mystery, and the
    Creator of all, the Solver of Thy transient created things, and Who afterwards
    gatherest them together, Who art their rest unto the ages. Thee we serve and... "

    This extended manuscript also maps up with the Byzantine version:

    "Truly great is Your mystery, Master and Maker of all, of the
    temporary separation of Your creatures, to be united again in everlasting rest.... "

    It makes me wonder if there were two edits done :S One to make the prayer shorter and the second to "correct" the theology of the liturgical prayers.

  • Thanks @CopticSoldier. Maybe someone has access to a pre-1999 version (or maybe even a pre-1950 version) to see what was actually prayed before the changes were made.
  • I didn't read the St Mary Kitchener one properly, it seems that it has the original recension:

    Coptic (Burmester Manuscript)

    Coptic Prayers

    O Lord God, of Thy great mercy have compassion on Thy servants the living and the dead, O Creator; for Thou hast made them to exist from that which was not, and again Thou hast loosed them that Thou mayest transfer them hence; Who dost give an existence to man that he may live, and dost bring upon him death; Who didst cripple the sting of Death, that he might not have authority over those who believe in Him and hope in the Resurrection.

    You give existence to man and he lives and You bring death upon him with Your dominion.

    (1)"and also You absolve it and take it to that place [Paradise]"

    You overcame the sting of death that it may not have power over the believers nor on those who look forward to the resurrection of the dead.

    Coptic (Burmester Manuscript)

    Coptic Prayers

    We beseech Thee to receive our prayer on this holy day which is the fulfilment of all things for our sake and

    for the sake of those who are in Amenti(Hades), for we have great hope concerning the release of all those who are in every kind of suffering and those who have delivered their souls into Thine Hand.

    We supplicate to You to accept our prayers on this sacred Day. 

    (2)"for those who are in Hades now, we have the hope that You will absolve all those who are in various sufferings...”

    Grant perfection to us and repose to those who commended their souls into Your hands.

    Coptic (Burmester Manuscript)

    Coptic Prayers

    Cause their souls to dwell in the tabernacles of light and make them worthy of forgiveness and peace. For the dead shall not praise Thee, O Lord, neither shall those in Amenti (Hades) openly confess Thee, but we who are alive shall bless Thee, and supplicate Thee, and offer unto Thee these prayers and these sacrifices on behalf of their souls.

    May their souls abide in the shadow of light. Make them worthy of peaceful rest and of forgiveness of sins

    (3)"for those who are dead do not praise You, and those who are in Hades do not confess You, but we the living…"

    praise You and thank You and offer You these prayers and these sacrifices for the sake of our souls.

  • Would still like to see an edition of the sagda in the Liturgical Books that were used in the Church before the change to see if the extended prayer mentioned by Burmester was in use.
  • Happy Feast everyone!

    Also some excerpts from the Funeral prayers. They are so hopeful and loving...

    From the Prayers for the departed in the Funeral: "For there is no death for Your servants, but a departure. Even if any negligence or heedlessness has overtaken them as men, since they were clothed in flesh and dwelt in this world, O God, as the Good One and Lover of Mankind, graciously accord, O Lord, Your servants the orthodox Christians, who are in the whole world, from the east to the west and from the north to the south, each one according to his name and each one according to her name, O Lord repose and forgive them. For no one is pure and without blemish even though his life on earth is a single day.

    As for those, O Lord, whose souls You have taken, repose them, and may they be worthy of the kingdom of the heavens. As for us all, grant us our Christian perfection that would be pleasing unto You, and give them, and us, a share and an inheritance with all Your saints."

    Prayer for Departed Men: "And if he committed any sin toward You, like the rest of mankind, forgive and pardon him. Abolish the remainder of his punishment, for You have created man for life and not death. Repose him in that place, and we also who are here, have mercy upon us. Make us worthy to worship You without interruption."

    Prayer for Departed Women: "..but You have forgiven that sin through your Only-begotten Son, Who was incarnated in the womb of a Virgin mother; He abolished the curse of our being cast down for judgment; He renewed our nature. We humble ourselves before You for Your servant (N.), who has passed away and has returned to the earth, her original place, while her soul has returned to You. We entreat You, O Philanthropic One, the compassionate at all times, to have mercy on her, repose her soul, and forgive her all her sins and disregard them, for You have not created humans for curses but for blessings."

  • I still don't see any issues with the texts you posted. It's all about praying for the soul of the person at the time of their departure. Nothing speaks about those who are in Hades
  • edited June 2014
    Hi @minatasgeel Happy Feast.

    Could it not be inferred that the prayers are for those in hades too?
  • @cyril....well. We can't say we are asking for those in Hades because we simply DO NOT KNOW. we do not know if those are in hades or in paradise because we are not the judge.
  • I will post something by St. Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Mystagogical Catechesis:

    9. Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls , for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.

    10. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offense, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins , propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.

    11. Then, after these things, we say that Prayer which the Saviour delivered to His own disciples, with a pure conscience entitling God our Father, and saying, Our Father, which art in heaven. O most surpassing loving-kindness of God! On them who revolted from Him and were in the very extreme of misery has He bestowed such a complete forgiveness of evil deeds, and so great participation of grace, as that they should even call Him Father. Our Father, which art in heaven; and they also are a heaven who bear the image of the heavenly (1 Corinthians 15:49), in whom is God, dwelling and walking in them (2 Corinthians 6:16).

    Therefore, by the witness of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, the time when the priest puts incense as we are commemorating the names of the departed, we are also commemorating the names of any departed, even if they died in sin, so that by our sacrifices, on their behalf, the Lord may forgive their sins.  This is the point of the Sagda prayers before it was changed.  May God reward and bless HH Pope Shenouda, for he was a great man, but we need to realize that HH was not right in all things.  Let's go back to patristics. If the text removed by the Synod existed in the liturgy for centuries, then the removal simply tells us we know better theology than the Church fathers.  What we were taught in Sunday School means that St. Cyril of Jerusalem was wrong.

    I'll dig more resources later, but here's an article that explains the "prayers for the dead":

  • edited June 2014
    Thank you very much for your comments. I hope we can engage in a fruitful discussion since prayer for the dead seems to be a controversial topic and clarification (or at least dialogue) is needed.

    Using the quote from St John Chrysostom that you provided, it doesn't seem to me that St John is necessarily contradicting the opposing argument. There is a difference from remission or absolving sin and transferring someone out of Hades to Paradise. Using St John's example, even if some people weaved a crown for the king on behalf of the person banished by the king, and the king absolves his penalties, it doesn't necessarily mean the king will allow him back into the kingdom. What if the king declared a law that there is no physical way for someone inside the kingdom who is banished to return? It doesn't mean that the person outside, who has their sins forgiven, can go back in even if the king has turned away his anger. If the banished person does return to the kingdom, then it either means (1) the king is schizophrenic and/or (2) his law forbidding return to the kingdom was meaningless from the beginning.

    This is how I understand the scripture passages on Hades. Using a more modern example, image Hades is a prison where there will never, ever, ever be the ability to escape. Suppose a person is convicted of sin and sentenced to this prison. Even if the judge who sentenced a person to this prison has compassion and forgives him of wrong doing, it doesn't necessarily mean the man is allowed to leave and come back to society (especially if he physically can't leave). Christ told us in the parable of Lazarus "between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’" Luke 16:26. 

    Look also at 1 Peter 3:18-22. "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits  to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."  When Christ was made alive in the Spirit and went to Hades, to the imprisoned spirits, did he remove them from Hades? No He went to declare to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah that the Arc was salvation because it was baptism. 
  • Praying for the dead and offering sacrifices on behalf of the dead for the remission of sins or purification are obviously allowable. It is the idea that one can transfer out of Hades that is a problem. Heaven, Hades, and earth are all going to pass away in the final judgment. See 2 Peter 3. However, knowing that Hades will be destroyed doesn't mean Hades is a weak holding place and it has no importance. The same is true of sinning. If prayers for the dead and sacrifices annul the sin of the one in Hades as it does while one is alive, what is the point of suffering and steadfastness? In Ezekiel 18, God says that the righteous lives, the one who sins dies. "The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them...But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them." This is all well and good when one is alive. But one who has died in sins does not have the benefit of annulling sins and returning to the place of living. That is why St Peter, speaking of the day of the Lord, says "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." Why forewarn someone that lawless people will be carried away and fall from a secure position if a posthumous sacrifice will annul that lawlessness and restore that person to his secure position? This is the problem with purgatory. It's one thing to believe in posthumous purification, it's another thing to believe that this purification has the ability to transfer you from an inescapable prison to paradise. 

    By the way, that article is filled with assumptions and erroneous logic. 

    In this framework, I think we can reconcile the patristic writings on prayers for the dead and recent changes in the Genuflection rite of the Coptic Church. 

  • edited June 2014
    I know it's been a while. I'm collecting a short florilegium with some commentary from me, hopefully by Monday. To summarize, I don't think the afterlife beliefs should be dogmatized, but we should respect whatever tradition that has been passed to us. In the end, what is the most clear ideas about the afterlife is "neither eye has seen, nor eat heard, nor heart can contemplate." The ultimate spiritual maturity is that such ideas of the afterlife do not matter, but that you live your spiritual life only for the sake of loving Christ.
  • +

    Mina - please forward to me when done, not just the condensed version.

    pray for me, please,
  • edited June 2014
    Sorry for the length it took for me to post this and for the length of this article, but to avoid posting this in what could possibly be 10-20 posts, I just created a Word version and posted it on my google drive:

    So, the uncondensed version is for everyone to see ;)

    But to be fair, I'll give an abstract:

    This is to give a florilegium of the idea that there it is possible to transfer some souls from Hades to Paradise.  Quotes come from the Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, the Acts of Paul and Tekla, Tertullian, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Augustine, St. Macarius the Great, and various post-Chalcedonian Coptic sources, such as St. Shenoute the Archmandrite, Aba St. Cyrus by Pambo, and St. Pistentius.  In short, I demonstrate I hold no dogmatic feeling to what happens in the afterlife, but to make the point that the earlier quote I provided by St. Cyril of Jerusalem cannot be reconciled with HH Pope Shenouda III, but that neither views are heretical.  I address Luke 16 and 1 Peter 3 and I even talk about a parable in Matthew 18 to add to the discussion.  In short, I am not pleased with the removal of part of the Sagda prayers and that any tradition of the Afterlife given to us, even if contradictory, should not be changed, altered, or condemned.

    God bless.

  • edited June 2014

    Dear Mina,

    God bless your efforts. Thank you for your work in this, really. I pray that we don't dogmatise things that are not dogma and allow that there are things we simply do not know or understand. 

    Pray for me,
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