Amen Alleluia - Conclusion

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
During the annual season, I have heard many different verses. Some people say 1 part of the three verses, some people say all the 3, some say all 3 without "esmo". It is very confusing as to which one is the correct way to say it.

The part I'm talking about is: Esmo en a eir ente etve, esmo nem a ou e mevi aro, esmo ni citi......

Comments

  • outside egypt, this should be said:
    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1853

    Now i heard many churches in the southern diocese follow the rite that is done in egypt (differnt litanies for differnt times of the year).......i donno.....maybe their harvest seasons do follow that of egypt.
  • I said these verses one time actually and my priest told me your supposed to always say esmo before each verse.

    `cmou `niayr `nte `tve `cmou nimwou `m`viaro `cmou  `enici] nem nicim.

    Has anyone heard of this practice?
  • It is redundant to add the esmou, and unnecessary.
  • Is their a certain source for this? I know you guys know your stuff, but if I say it I would like up to back up where I got it to my priest.
  • It is simple conjunction in sentence structure.

    When you write an English list, eg, "I went to the store to buy:  bread, milk, eggs, and butter."  You don't write:  "I went to the store to buy:  bread and milk and egggs and butter."

    You don't write:  Bless the air, Bless the water, Bless the crops.
    You write:  Bless the air, water, and the crops.

    There is nothing particularly controversial or complicated.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12241.msg143962#msg143962 date=1314833756]
    outside egypt, this should be said:
    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1853

    Now i heard many churches in the southern diocese follow the rite that is done in egypt (differnt litanies for differnt times of the year).......i donno.....maybe their harvest seasons do follow that of egypt.

    So in New Jersey, we are supposed to sing all three? Is there anything wrong with singing one of the seasons? Can't we pray for the farming in Egypt (since here in NJ, we don't want any of the rivers to continue to rise...Irene joke)?
  • [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=12241.msg143969#msg143969 date=1314837255]
    Is their a certain source for this? I know you guys know your stuff, but if I say it I would like up to back up where I got it to my priest.

    there is no "source" for this.....it's made up or rather constructed to match our seasons here in the states or for those outside in egypt in general.
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12241.msg143971#msg143971 date=1314841409]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12241.msg143962#msg143962 date=1314833756]
    outside egypt, this should be said:
    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1853

    Now i heard many churches in the southern diocese follow the rite that is done in egypt (differnt litanies for differnt times of the year).......i donno.....maybe their harvest seasons do follow that of egypt.

    So in New Jersey, we are supposed to sing all three? Is there anything wrong with singing one of the seasons? Can't we pray for the farming in Egypt (since here in NJ, we don't want any of the rivers to continue to rise...Irene joke)?

    this is not only for NJ......for ANY PLACE that has differnt seasons from egypt.

    why can't we say the responses here? simple....because we are not in egypt. everything we do should have symbolism. the only exception i would think of is if you are saying the aspasmos watos just so you don't mess up the tune (even thoo we did record that aspasmos in english with all 3 responses).
  • According to the rubrics of the southern diocese service book, each may be said according to the season or all three may be combined. Here are the rubrics in that service book (in blue):

    From Paoni 12 to Paapi 9 (June 19 to October 19/20), the Litany for the Waters is said.
    From Paapi 10 to Tobi 10 (October 20/21 to January 18/19), the Litany for the Seeds is said.
    From Tobi 11 to Paoni 11 (January 19/20 to June 18), the the Litany for the Fruits is said.


    and

    The three prayers may be combined as follows.
  • It is better to follow the original rite of praying for each season alone. In the Southern diocese, the priest prays for each season separately and the conclusion follows accordingly.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12241.msg144017#msg144017 date=1314884150]
    It is better to follow the original rite of praying for each season alone.

    give me a good reason why to do that?
    to show our ignorence of the reason behind the rite?!
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12241.msg144022#msg144022 date=1314889357]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12241.msg144017#msg144017 date=1314884150]
    It is better to follow the original rite of praying for each season alone.

    give me a good reason why to do that?
    to show our ignorence of the reason behind the rite?!


    Wow what a comment. What is happening to this forum?
    "walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

    Alright, back to the topic. The rite of the Church is:

    Paoni 12 to Paapi 9 (June 19 to October 19/20), the Litany for the Waters is said.
    Paapi 10 to Tobi 10 (October 20/21 to January 18/19), the Litany for the Seeds is said.
    Tobi 11 to Paoni 11 (January 19/20 to June 18), the the Litany for the Fruits is said.

    So, the conclusion should follow the same rite.
  • Another example of invention and corrupting church's (AND THE WHOLE OF THE COPTIC CULTURE ALTOGETHER) traditions for the sake of "fake" integration. Guys, it doesn't sit right with me. In fact I may argue that not only those responses have to be modified if we follow that principle, but then many of the Passion week litanies have to be changed. Why do we pray for the Nile and Egypt? Why in England we don't pray for the Coptic church in America, or France? Why in London don't we mention the River Thames? Why in Newcastle we don't mention the river Tyne? Who are the barbarians? Are they still there? So why? What about the plagues? I could go on forever. So yes, the argument is "no no these are spiritual symbols"... yeah right.
    Simply that happened because somebody gave themselves the right to start ad-libbing (= yefty in Arabic) and what a sad way Christians act in! Ever seen an Egyptian saying "I don't know"... "I'd better ask first"...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12241.msg144050#msg144050 date=1314910613]
    Simply that happened because somebody gave themselves the right to start ad-libbing (= yefty in Arabic)
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12241.msg144024#msg144024 date=1314889837]
    So, the conclusion should follow the same rite.

    http://www.theholysynod.copticpope.org/aspect22.htm
    look at the third meeting from the top (meeting of June 3 1990).........i can translate it but later cuz i have class.
    does our entire Synod "be-yefty feha" or do they have a reason for this doing?!
    ana mabagebsh haga min-'andy. I have fathers that i follow. when it my opinion i declare it is before anyone takes it to be definite.
  • Nope, I just have an issue with the holy synod and don't agree with some things that they approve of...
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12241.msg144067#msg144067 date=1314916192]
    Nope, I just have an issue with the holy synod and don't agree with some things that they approve of...
    Oujai


    no comment..........i think if i would speak my mind here i'll be giving life to a sin.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12241.msg144067#msg144067 date=1314916192]
    Nope, I just have an issue with the holy synod and don't agree with some things that they approve of...
    Oujai



    So what you're saying is, you know better than the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria? So what, should we all abandon the rulings of the Synod because the All-Holy Ophadece, the new Vicar of Christ, says so? I think the Synod knows better than you, or anyone else on this forum for that matter.
  • Dear Mina,
    I may refrain from discussing any further points with you, as it has been the case recently for at least 3-4 months you are getting so upset because of my posts. I'm so sorry if my personal opinion is stumbling you, and I ask you to forgive me and pray for me.
    Dear Cephas,
    I didn't like your tone man (I hope you're not a lady and I'm mistaken). I think you were rather more sarcastic than joking. I hope for a brotherly debate between us, and to me you sounded offensive. It may only be me though, being hypersensitive, so ignore me if that's the case. Please don't misunderstand me as painting myself All-holy but I just have different opinions to an organisation that's fallible. Like I said to Mina above, I'm sorry if I stumbled you... forgive me and pray for me
    Oujai
  • Can we please stop this? We really do not need another thread that is all arguments. Lately, most threads are ending the same way: a fight about something, whether it be the different Coptic, the decisions of fathers etc. Can we please just keep posts irrelevant to the thread off the forum and accept that we are all  brothers and sisters and only post for the benefit of others. This isn't Smackdown vs Raw, its tasbeha.org. There is an option to PM users...please utilize that function if you need to say something that doesn't belong on a thread.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12241.msg144107#msg144107 date=1314948881]
    Dear Cephas,
    I didn't like your tone man (I hope you're not a lady and I'm mistaken). I think you were rather more sarcastic than joking. I hope for a brotherly debate between us, and to me you sounded offensive. It may only be me though, being hypersensitive, so ignore me if that's the case. Please don't misunderstand me as painting myself All-holy but I just have different opinions to an organisation that's fallible. Like I said to Mina above, I'm sorry if I stumbled you... forgive me and pray for me
    Oujai



    You're still not getting it. Man is fallible, you don't need to tell me that (you are evidence of that). However, one thing you need to get through your head is that the Holy Synod also gathers to discuss and make decisions on matters of doctrine and dogma. If you are going to call into question their ability to made a decision on the rites of the Church (which they know better than you), it is only a matter of time before you call into question their decisions on matters of doctrine and/or dogma (which they also know better than you). Man may be fallible, but the Holy Spirit is still very much active in the Church and guides the bishops of the Synod. So, whereas one bishop or priest may err, it is highly unlikely that the Holy Spirit would permit a congregation of bishops to do so, particularly when it comes to matters of doctrines, dogmas and rites.
  • Ok Cephas. That is great. Advice taken.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12241.msg144107#msg144107 date=1314948881]
    Dear Mina,
    I may refrain from discussing any further points with you, as it has been the case recently for at least 3-4 months you are getting so upset because of my posts. I'm so sorry if my personal opinion is stumbling you, and I ask you to forgive me and pray for me.
    Oujai


    i am sorry.....bass all i have been seeing is ehna elli-beifty feha mish had tany.......and in EVERYTHING and not only this issue. we take our opinions to be facts and we keep fighting for them.......tub leh keda?! min ellit el-scholars in the world ya3ny let alone our church?!
  • Ok Mina,
    This is my belief: these forums are made for discussions and debates, so people can say their opinions firmly and hold on to them so strongly. That's what I do, and maybe a reason why I come across as a pharisee. However, my opinion is not always right, but we have to accept differences in opinions. I may disagree not only with the pope and the holy synod but also with governors and presidents, and from my point of view that's completely normal, acceptable, and HEALTHY. Sorry again, I didn't mean to offend anybody.
    PS: I don't take my opinions to be facts, but DEFINE a fact!
    Oujai
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