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Extremely Disturbing news for the Church & The Coptic Christians
Today, an Archbishop spoke about the urgency for Iraqi Christians to leave Iraq and immigrate elsewhere.
In the news, the reporter asked His Grace: "But Isn't that exactly what Al Qaeda want? They want you to leave?"
He replied "... which is better, to live elsewhere and be alive? or to stay in Iraq and be killed"?
It seems highly likely that the Assyrian Orthodox, and Catholic Churches of Iraq, who are the indigenous populations of Iraq, will be wiped out.
Do you think that If the islamic terrorists see this, it will only be an incentive for them to attack the Copts in Egypt? This is what they've been trying to do since Islam set foot in Egypt with Amr Ibn Aas.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11705032
In the news, the reporter asked His Grace: "But Isn't that exactly what Al Qaeda want? They want you to leave?"
He replied "... which is better, to live elsewhere and be alive? or to stay in Iraq and be killed"?
It seems highly likely that the Assyrian Orthodox, and Catholic Churches of Iraq, who are the indigenous populations of Iraq, will be wiped out.
Do you think that If the islamic terrorists see this, it will only be an incentive for them to attack the Copts in Egypt? This is what they've been trying to do since Islam set foot in Egypt with Amr Ibn Aas.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11705032
Comments
sorry.
why don't you ever bring good news?!!!
First of all, I find this a very rude thing to say.
Secondly, this is the news today. I'm only reporting it.
Don't make this situation worse by being vulgar. First of all, you can pray for them!
Secondly, READ my post:
I asked very clearly:
"Do you think that If the islamic terrorists see this, it will only be an incentive for them to attack the Copts in Egypt? This is what they've been trying to do since Islam set foot in Egypt with Amr Ibn Aas. "
This is a very serious issue and we should commend those who bring these urgent needs to our attention.
The bishop in question is H.G. Archbishop Athanasius of the Syrian Orthodox Church whom I know. Most of the Syrian Orthodox in the UK are from Iraq, as are many of the Armenian community. Even if it were not the case that our Orthodox brothers and sisters are being persecuted and martyred by Muslims in Iraq, it is surely only right that all faithful Christians should pray for all those who are daily facing death for the name of Christ.
This is a matter of urgent importance to Coptic Orthodox Christians because their brothers and sisters are dying daily, as are many other innocent lovers of Christ.
Let us pray urgently for our brothers and sisters.
Thank you Zoxasi for bringing this to my attention. It is desperately sad. Who among us could insist that the Orthodox Christians of Iraq stay to be murdered, but who would wish to see such historic communities of Christians eliminated.
Father Peter
Minagir, please be careful how you speak.
This is a very serious issue and we should commend those who bring these urgent needs to our attention.
The bishop in question is H.G. Archbishop Athanasius of the Syrian Orthodox Church whom I know. Most of the Syrian Orthodox in the UK are from Iraq, as are many of the Armenian community. Even if it were not the case that our Orthodox brothers and sisters are being persecuted and martyred by Muslims in Iraq, it is surely only right that all faithful Christians should pray for all those who are daily facing death for the name of Christ.
This is a matter of urgent importance to Coptic Orthodox Christians because their brothers and sisters are dying daily, as are many other innocent lovers of Christ.
Let us pray urgently for our brothers and sisters.
Thank you Zoxasi for bringing this to my attention. It is desperately sad. Who among us could insist that the Orthodox Christians of Iraq stay to be murdered, but who would wish to see such historic communities of Christians eliminated.
Father Peter
Thank you Fr. Peter,
I agree entirely, they are our brothers and sisters, and this news affects us.
I'm sorry if this news is sad, but it saddened me deeply. At times like these, when Christians are suffering, I do not like to distinguish between Orthodox and Catholic. We are all suffering the same way, through the same enemy.
You are obviously right... I cannot judge them for leaving. Each man has to think about his family and their security. My family left Egypt to escape from the discrimination there, so why shouldnt others.. but the difference is this:
This is an exodus. They are basically closing shop and leaving the country. There will be no Christians there. This is my point. If Al Qaida see this, they would have won. This was their objective. I am fearful of how this would position Egypt's Christians also.
I am sorry again if I'm worried about the Coptic Church in Egypt - but we must come to terms with this: if an outright exodus of all Iraqi Christians happens, then will this be a sign that terrorism works?
They've already been pushing Coptic Christians out of Egypt since the last 40 years - could this be an incentive now to "finish us"?
Zoxasi thank you for bringing this news, otherwise I would have never known of it.
No problem. This is our sister Church, and its such a sad day.
At least in 2010, we have the ability to record history clearly. If the Assyrian Orthodox Church is displaced and ethnically cleansed from Iraq, then there will be clear proof for future generations see and witness how this happened.
Whenever you explain to anyone how Egypt was invaded by muslims and what they did to the Christians to subjugate them, muslims always respond as if "its not true". They will have what happens to the Assyrian Christians strapped around their necks for all humanity to witness this "religion of peace".
If this warfare is weak I get the chills thinking about what happened before Saint Anthony's time
how often do we think being martyrs?
those who didn't do this already should ask ourselves this question and start to get ready for whatever is God's plan for us.
this is quite a heavy question, but all Christians everywhere should consider it at some time.
sometimes it's the right time to run away and sometimes it's the right time to face suffering, and to return good for evil.
may God bring peace to our brothers and sisters in iraq and anywhere where they suffer and give us all the courage to follow our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
maybe some people need to emigrate to the countries where it is difficult to live, to support those already there.
how often do we think being martyrs?
those who didn't do this already should ask ourselves this question and start to get ready for whatever is God's plan for us.
this is quite a heavy question, but all Christians everywhere should consider it at some time.
sometimes it's the right time to run away and sometimes it's the right time to face suffering, and to return good for evil.
may God bring peace to our brothers and sisters in iraq and anywhere where they suffer and give us all the courage to follow our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
I agree with mabsoota.
And sometimes God gives permission to Satan to situations like this, like the incident in Naga7amadi in Egypt at 7 Januari. God chooses some Christians to be
Martyrs..
Even if there will be thousands of security (measures)..if God wants them to be martyrs.. it will happen..whatever one tries to do to prevent it... and there will always be christians everywhere... in Isna (egypt, qena) Diclitianos had persecuted ALL the christians there.. there was no living soul... but God blesses every day and brings christianity back.
(correct me if I am wrong)..
pray 4 our brothers and for me :)
GB
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378
The attacks against Christians have started again.
Please remember them in your prayers.
Personally, I would encourage the Christians to leave. I would have left ages ago. My affiliation is towards my religion not my country. France is accepting them and frankly, they would be better French citizens than the north africans that they allow to immigrate there who only end up rioting and burning the French flag.
One other thing, look how BBC the Dhimmi trys to censor Christians in a clever manner...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldhaveyoursay/2010/11/are_christians_the_most_oppres.html#275129
The world is a painful place enough, it does not need more hatred and violence, especially from Christians.
Christians do not need, and should not look to, politicians for any salvation. As always, we should turn to prayer and fasting. God is our strength and our shield, He is our strong defender.
Father Peter
Thanks, Zoxsasi! Babylon, the prostitue is about to burn. I also urge all Christians to abondon the so-called Muslim states. Look how Obama has become a Muslim ambassador, while Christians are dying every other day. I say it again, that our Egyptian brothers should fight for a separate Coptic State within Egypt, and they have a 99% of support from Ethiopians. Do you remember the Ethiopian king who once threatened the coward Egyptians Muftis with diverting the Nile, and building a Christian Church with the stones of the Kaaba, if they continue persecuting Egyptian Christians? Where are such leaders?! My blood is boiling, and sorry, I am not going to pray for these enemies of God.
One other thing, look how BBC the Dhimmi trys to censor Christians in a clever manner...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldhaveyoursay/2010/11/are_christians_the_most_oppres.html#275129
Melchoir, my blood boils everytime I hear Obama say "America is not at war with Islam". Not that I want him to be at war with Islam, but this idiot of a president doesnt realise that Islam is at war with him and his country.
I do however, agree with Fr. Peter.
We should pray for our enemies. If we cannot do this, then our faith is pointless.
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=9966.msg121953#msg121953 date=1289399752]
Thanks, Zoxsasi! Babylon, the prostitue is about to burn. I also urge all Christians to abondon the so-called Muslim states. Look how Obama has become a Muslim ambassador, while Christians are dying every other day. I say it again, that our Egyptian brothers should fight for a separate Coptic State within Egypt, and they have a 99% of support from Ethiopians. Do you remember the Ethiopian king who once threatened the coward Egyptians Muftis with diverting the Nile, and building a Christian Church with the stones of the Kaaba, if they continue persecuting Egyptian Christians? Where are such leaders?! My blood is boiling, and sorry, I am not going to pray for these enemies of God.
One other thing, look how BBC the Dhimmi trys to censor Christians in a clever manner...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldhaveyoursay/2010/11/are_christians_the_most_oppres.html#275129
Melchoir, my blood boils everytime I hear Obama say "America is not at war with Islam". Not that I want him to be at war with Islam, but this idiot of a president doesnt realise that Islam is at war with him and his country.
I do however, agree with Fr. Peter.
We should pray for our enemies. If we cannot do this, then our faith is pointless.
Radicals, and not Muslims are the ones who at at war the United States. Huge difference, and both should not be confused because it would only lead to further intolerance in the world.
Thanks, Zoxsasi! Babylon, the prostitue is about to burn. I also urge all Christians to abondon the so-called Muslim states. Look how Obama has become a Muslim ambassador, while Christians are dying every other day. I say it again, that our Egyptian brothers should fight for a separate Coptic State within Egypt, and they have a 99% of support from Ethiopians. Do you remember the Ethiopian king who once threatened the coward Egyptians Muftis with diverting the Nile, and building a Christian Church with the stones of the Kaaba, if they continue persecuting Egyptian Christians? Where are such leaders?! My blood is boiling, and sorry, I am not going to pray for these enemies of God.
One other thing, look how BBC the Dhimmi trys to censor Christians in a clever manner...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldhaveyoursay/2010/11/are_christians_the_most_oppres.html#275129
Coptic separate state? Let the Muslim (radicals) get a separate state, somewhere in Saudi desert. Egypt is ours.
Radicals, and not Muslims are the ones who at at war the United States. Huge difference, and both should not be confused because it would only lead to further intolerance in the world.
MASR,
My point was that the only difference between a radical and a moderate was a radical has more zeal for his god. A radical is most likely to want to employ his god's will.
You know what the God of Islam's will is don't you? Its the stuff we were taught at school in Egypt..
You remember?
"Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Now check this out:
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
So tell me: Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense? Or is it just sheer God endorsed violence?
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
These are the quranic verses we were taught. No one felt in the SLIGHTEST bit embarassed to say them to our faces.
May I suggest something for you?
Why don't you watch this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSlq2WljYf8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Question: So when does a moderate become a Radical?
Answer: When he feels empowered that God will endorse whatever he plans to do against the kuffar.
You agree?
These are the words of Mosab Hassan Youssef:
"Any muslim has responsibilities, logics and morals more than his god".
Now, let's look at Said Al Qimini for a second. .he's a lovely guy. Is he radical? No. that's because he doesn't follow Islam.
You cannot deny the level of intolerance and violence in the Quran, MASR!
Please go to the muslim website I sent you earlier.. they are quoting verses from the Quran justifying killing of innocent Christians.
We are not talking about a couple of criminals who do this.
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg121964#msg121964 date=1289404506]
Radicals, and not Muslims are the ones who at at war the United States. Huge difference, and both should not be confused because it would only lead to further intolerance in the world.
MASR,
My point was that the only difference between a radical and a moderate was a radical has more zeal for his god. A radical is most likely to want to employ his god's will.
You know what the God of Islam's will is don't you? Its the stuff we were taught at school in Egypt..
You remember?
"Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Now check this out:
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
So tell me: Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense? Or is it just sheer God endorsed violence?
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
These are the quranic verses we were taught. No one felt in the SLIGHTEST bit embarassed to say them to our faces.
May I suggest something for you?
Why don't you watch this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSlq2WljYf8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Question: So when does a moderate become a Radical?
Answer: When he feels empowered that God will endorse whatever he plans to do against the kuffar.
You agree?
These are the words of Mosab Hassan Youssef:
"Any muslim has responsibilities, logics and morals more than his god".
Now, let's look at Said Al Qimini for a second. .he's a lovely guy. Is he radical? No. that's because he doesn't follow Islam.
You cannot deny the level of intolerance and violence in the Quran, MASR!
Please go to the muslim website I sent you earlier.. they are quoting verses from the Quran justifying killing of innocent Christians.
We are not talking about a couple of criminals who do this.
First it is not right to take verses out of context and post them, because I can easily do the same with the Torah and the Bible. Each religion contains verses that prescribe violence in some form, especially against “non-believers”. However, I am not aware enough of everything in the Bible, and thus I will not take verses out of context and post them here, as you did. Need I remind you that the Quran also states that Jews and Christians are “People of the book” and although we as Muslims believe that the Bible and Torah has been “changed” through history, the Quran specifically orders us to respect their religion and that Christians are the “closest people to Muslims” . The idea of Jihad or killing “non-believers” is only prescribed in self-defence, if Islam is attacked and is in danger. Thus those radicals equate the American people with the American government, whom they believe has “attacked Islam”. A notion that is ridiculous, I’m sure we both agree on that.
A moderate becomes a radical when they mix politics with religion, when they believe that only religion can fix politics, and thus they believe that the verses you posted give them the right to “protect Islam”, yet they do not notice that Islam is not under attack, on the contrary, it is our leaders (mostly Muslim ones unfortunately) that led to that current state of our countries, not the West or America. Furthermore, according to the Quran, our current governments would be considered illegitimate, because the notion of Shura (which is compatible with “Western” democracy) states the leader must give justice, rights, and be elected.
If you believe that Islam is the root of evil, that is your opinion, and to be honest, I do blame those who believe that. After all when you find people blowing themselves up in the name of “God” and “Islam” it is human nature to become skeptic of the religion. It is funny however that God also forbid suicide…the contradictions rooted into the ideology of those radicals is very easy to prove using the teachings of Islam.
First it is not right to take verses out of context and post them, because I can easily do the same with the Torah and the Bible. Each religion contains verses that prescribe violence in some form, especially against “non-believers”. However, I am not aware enough of everything in the Bible, and thus I will not take verses out of context and post them here, as you did. Need I remind you that the Quran also states that Jews and Christians are “People of the book” and although we as Muslims believe that the Bible and Torah has been “changed” through history, the Quran specifically orders us to respect their religion and that Christians are the “closest people to Muslims” . The idea of Jihad or killing “non-believers” is only prescribed in self-defence, if Islam is attacked and is in danger. Thus those radicals equate the American people with the American government, whom they believe has “attacked Islam”. A notion that is ridiculous, I’m sure we both agree on that.
A moderate becomes a radical when they mix politics with religion, when they believe that only religion can fix politics, and thus they believe that the verses you posted give them the right to “protect Islam”, yet they do not notice that Islam is not under attack, on the contrary, it is our leaders (mostly Muslim ones unfortunately) that led to that current state of our countries, not the West or America. Furthermore, according to the Quran, our current governments would be considered illegitimate, because the notion of Shura (which is compatible with “Western” democracy) states the leader must give justice, rights, and be elected.
If you believe that Islam is the root of evil, that is your opinion, and to be honest, I do blame those who believe that. After all when you find people blowing themselves up in the name of “God” and “Islam” it is human nature to become skeptic of the religion. It is funny however that God also forbid suicide…the contradictions rooted into the ideology of those radicals is very easy to prove using the teachings of Islam.
No MASR, you are gravely mistaken my friend.
Here's the difference.
If a Christian went out and screamed in a loud voice "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, One God, AMEN." and KILLED 1000's of people in a mosque, then yes, we could say that perhaps the Christian faith is not clear concerning violence and killing others... perhaps this person has misunderstood a few passages.
This has never happened.
I've said this before.
But in Islam, it IS clear. Its not a few people who have mis-interpreted the Quran!! Not at all. Your morals and your reasoning is far greater than what your God is telling you to do.
Why in Egypt is it compulsory to have your religion on your ID cards?? What for?? Because in islam discrimination against other religions WAS and still is allowed!!
Why are you denying this??
You are MORE than your religion. You do not follow Islam to the letter.
If were to follow Christianity to the letter, we'd all sell what we have and become monks.
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg121970#msg121970 date=1289406908]
First it is not right to take verses out of context and post them, because I can easily do the same with the Torah and the Bible. Each religion contains verses that prescribe violence in some form, especially against “non-believers”. However, I am not aware enough of everything in the Bible, and thus I will not take verses out of context and post them here, as you did. Need I remind you that the Quran also states that Jews and Christians are “People of the book” and although we as Muslims believe that the Bible and Torah has been “changed” through history, the Quran specifically orders us to respect their religion and that Christians are the “closest people to Muslims” . The idea of Jihad or killing “non-believers” is only prescribed in self-defence, if Islam is attacked and is in danger. Thus those radicals equate the American people with the American government, whom they believe has “attacked Islam”. A notion that is ridiculous, I’m sure we both agree on that.
A moderate becomes a radical when they mix politics with religion, when they believe that only religion can fix politics, and thus they believe that the verses you posted give them the right to “protect Islam”, yet they do not notice that Islam is not under attack, on the contrary, it is our leaders (mostly Muslim ones unfortunately) that led to that current state of our countries, not the West or America. Furthermore, according to the Quran, our current governments would be considered illegitimate, because the notion of Shura (which is compatible with “Western” democracy) states the leader must give justice, rights, and be elected.
If you believe that Islam is the root of evil, that is your opinion, and to be honest, I do blame those who believe that. After all when you find people blowing themselves up in the name of “God” and “Islam” it is human nature to become skeptic of the religion. It is funny however that God also forbid suicide…the contradictions rooted into the ideology of those radicals is very easy to prove using the teachings of Islam.
No MASR, you are gravely mistaken my friend.
Here's the difference.
If a Christian went out and screamed in a loud voice "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, One God, AMEN." and KILLED 1000's of people in a mosque, then yes, we could say that perhaps the Christian faith is not clear concerning violence and killing others... perhaps this person has misunderstood a few passages.
This has never happened.
I've said this before.
But in Islam, it IS clear. Its not a few people who have mis-interpreted the Quran!! Not at all. Your morals and your reasoning is far greater than what your God is telling you to do.
Why in Egypt is it compulsory to have your religion on your ID cards?? What for?? Because in islam discrimination against other religions WAS and still is allowed!!
Why are you denying this??
You are MORE than your religion. You do not follow Islam to the letter.
If were to follow Christianity to the letter, we'd all sell what we have and become monks.
Christians justified racism and violence against black people; they justified it by claiming the Bible ordered them to do so.
The Crusades are also another example. Muslims and “non-believers” were tortured and killed under “Chrisitan rule” as well. WWI, WWII, all though historical events did not involve Islam, and Islam did not ignite them. You seem to refer that the world would be a better place without Islam. No need to get into the foreign policy of America as well, or the acts of Israel, which they justify using the Torah.
God specifically states in the Quran that there is “No compulsion in religion”. People can not and should not be forced into Islam.
However, today, you have people from Al Qaeda bombing Mosques and killing Muslims…does that mean that the Quran states the Muslims should kill one another? And as I previously stated, the very idea of suicide is clearly forbidden in Islam and the Quran.
There are fanatics in every religion, and in every region of the world. However to single out Islam as a “violent” “barbaric” religion is, in my opinion, as a Muslim, incorrect.
Egypt is being ruled by a dictator and an illegitimate government, all Egyptians are suffering under this rule. I understand that the Coptics have faced racism and discrimination, but I also believe that notions such as a “separate Coptic state” are reaching far beyond, things are not that severe.
Christians justified racism and violence against black people; they justified it by claiming the Bible ordered them to do so.
The Crusades are also another example. Muslims and “non-believers” were tortured and killed under “Chrisitan rule” as well. WWI, WWII, all though historical events did not involve Islam, and Islam did not ignite them. You seem to refer that the world would be a better place without Islam. No need to get into the foreign policy of America as well, or the acts of Israel, which they justify using the Torah.
God specifically states in the Quran that there is “No compulsion in religion”. People can not and should not be forced into Islam.
However, today, you have people from Al Qaeda bombing Mosques and killing Muslims…does that mean that the Quran states the Muslims should kill one another? And as I previously stated, the very idea of suicide is clearly forbidden in Islam and the Quran.
There are fanatics in every religion, and in every region of the world. However to single out Islam as a “violent” “barbaric” religion is, in my opinion, as a Muslim, incorrect.
Egypt is being ruled by a dictator and an illegitimate government, all Egyptians are suffering under this rule. I understand that the Coptics have faced racism and discrimination, but I also believe that notions such as a “separate Coptic state” are reaching far beyond, things are not that severe.
MASR,
As the heroes of WWI and WWII stopped Nazi Germany from overpowering Europe and Arianizing it; the crusaders stopped Europe from being under muslim rule.
The Crusades were a direct response to the MASSIVE muslim invation and annihilation of countless of Christian lands.
Had they not been stopped BY THE CRUSADES, we'd have been growing up in Saudi Europe.
Did you see the video of Sayed Al Qimini? He clearly points out the root cause of terrorism: IN THE QURAN!
The SAUDI Ministry of Education SURELY could not be wrong as what the Quran means concerning KILLING and SUBDUING THE KUFFAR???? Surely, out of all the people, they would know what it means!??
There's a HUGE difference between a Christian killing, and a Christian killing in the Name of His God.
So, I'm a Christian. Right? If I go and kill someone - there is NOT one Bible passage, not ONE condition in the Bible that will support this act. In fact, its a downright sin. The same with adultary, the same with rape, theft, anything.
However, if it is being misunderstood - why are so many people "misunderstanding" it??
A girl in the UK tried to kill a Labour MP because he voted for the war in Iraq. That's all his crime was. She was educated at one of the best UK universities - Kings. She was smart, had a good future.. Why would she do this?? Because it is god-endorsed violence. God - endorsed hatred.
So - let's say that "she got it wrong" ? Just for example.
Well, she received the biggest support from her muslim brothers and sisters. Now I am against the war in Iraq also. I believe our politicians are guilty of this. But the thing is, I believe they are guilty of this war because not only war is wrong, but it was unprovoked. It was unprovoked and their enemy is an ideology - not a handful of crazy fanatics.
I know at least 3 persons (muslims) who supported the 9/11 attacks.
The Coptic Orthodox Church IS NOT the crusades.
A poor Assyrian Christian in Baghdad did not carry out the crusades.
I'm sure you are aware that the Catholic and Orthodox churches are divided? This was before the crusades.
As Sayed al Qimini said:
Amr Ibn Aas came into Egypt with the banner of Islam and dakhal Ghazee - He came to conquer it. With the sword.
That was in the 7th century.
Islam then took over turkey, and the rest of the areas.
The islamic conquerors gave their captive options: either to convert to Islam or to die. In very few cases were they lucky to be offered the Jizya. - In Egypt , we were given this option. The reason was good: this was good income for the government.
Christianity didnt spread by the sword. On the contrary, only after Saint Peter and Paul's blood was shed , did Christianity spread.
Because YOU are a peaceful person, it doesnt mean you religion is peaceful ya MASR.
Let me ask you ONE small question :
Does your God love us who do not accept him NOR his prophet?
In the UK that means there are about 160,000 Muslims who think that suicide bombing is justified, legitimate and blessed by Allah.
Now how many Christians in the UK think that suicide bombing would be justified, legitimate and blessed by God? I bet the answer approximates to zero.
If it is only radicals who think that suicide bombing is OK then there are 160,000 radical Muslims in the UK. This is a matter of great concern. Even when the UK was being bombed by the IRA, and my home town was bombed, the IRA represented no more than 5,000 at any time over 30 years, and only 1,000 towards the end of the Troubles. Nowadays the active splinter groups are just a hundred or so 'radicals'.
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg121972#msg121972 date=1289408891]
Christians justified racism and violence against black people; they justified it by claiming the Bible ordered them to do so.
The Crusades are also another example. Muslims and “non-believers” were tortured and killed under “Chrisitan rule” as well. WWI, WWII, all though historical events did not involve Islam, and Islam did not ignite them. You seem to refer that the world would be a better place without Islam. No need to get into the foreign policy of America as well, or the acts of Israel, which they justify using the Torah.
God specifically states in the Quran that there is “No compulsion in religion”. People can not and should not be forced into Islam.
However, today, you have people from Al Qaeda bombing Mosques and killing Muslims…does that mean that the Quran states the Muslims should kill one another? And as I previously stated, the very idea of suicide is clearly forbidden in Islam and the Quran.
There are fanatics in every religion, and in every region of the world. However to single out Islam as a “violent” “barbaric” religion is, in my opinion, as a Muslim, incorrect.
Egypt is being ruled by a dictator and an illegitimate government, all Egyptians are suffering under this rule. I understand that the Coptics have faced racism and discrimination, but I also believe that notions such as a “separate Coptic state” are reaching far beyond, things are not that severe.
MASR,
As the heroes of WWI and WWII stopped Nazi Germany from overpowering Europe and Arianizing it; the crusaders stopped Europe from being under muslim rule.
The Crusades were a direct response to the MASSIVE muslim invation and annihilation of countless of Christian lands.
Had they not been stopped BY THE CRUSADES, we'd have been growing up in Saudi Europe.
Did you see the video of Sayed Al Qimini? He clearly points out the root cause of terrorism: IN THE QURAN!
The SAUDI Ministry of Education SURELY could not be wrong as what the Quran means concerning KILLING and SUBDUING THE KUFFAR???? Surely, out of all the people, they would know what it means!??
There's a HUGE difference between a Christian killing, and a Christian killing in the Name of His God.
So, I'm a Christian. Right? If I go and kill someone - there is NOT one Bible passage, not ONE condition in the Bible that will support this act. In fact, its a downright sin. The same with adultary, the same with rape, theft, anything.
However, if it is being misunderstood - why are so many people "misunderstanding" it??
A girl in the UK tried to kill a Labour MP because he voted for the war in Iraq. That's all his crime was. She was educated at one of the best UK universities - Kings. She was smart, had a good future.. Why would she do this?? Because it is god-endorsed violence. God - endorsed hatred.
So - let's say that "she got it wrong" ? Just for example.
Well, she received the biggest support from her muslim brothers and sisters. Now I am against the war in Iraq also. I believe our politicians are guilty of this. But the thing is, I believe they are guilty of this war because not only war is wrong, but it was unprovoked. It was unprovoked and their enemy is an ideology - not a handful of crazy fanatics.
I know at least 3 persons (muslims) who supported the 9/11 attacks.
The Coptic Orthodox Church IS NOT the crusades.
A poor Assyrian Christian in Baghdad did not carry out the crusades.
I'm sure you are aware that the Catholic and Orthodox churches are divided? This was before the crusades.
As Sayed al Qimini said:
Amr Ibn Aas came into Egypt with the banner of Islam and dakhal Ghazee - He came to conquer it. With the sword.
That was in the 7th century.
Islam then took over turkey, and the rest of the areas.
The islamic conquerors gave their captive options: either to convert to Islam or to die. In very few cases were they lucky to be offered the Jizya. - In Egypt , we were given this option. The reason was good: this was good income for the government.
Christianity didnt spread by the sword. On the contrary, only after Saint Peter and Paul's blood was shed , did Christianity spread.
Because YOU are a peaceful person, it doesnt mean you religion is peaceful ya MASR.
Again, you have a very shallow view of Islam, and you have not read enough about the religion. It is easy to tarnish a whole religion without any proof, and that is exactly what you are doing.
The Muslims were expanding, just as any new religion. The response of Christianity was massive killings of all “non-believers”. The notion of Islam being “Spread by the sword” is also inaccurate. At times there was violence by those who were hungry for power, which I will not and can not deny.
What is also inaccurate is to believe that Christianity was spread without any violence. Let us also remember that when Constantine converted prior to his death, he basically spread Christianity throughout the whole region and Roman Empire. Had Christianity faced the opposition Islam faced much more violence would have occurred.
It also seems that you are not answering my full post; instead you are picking only certain parts to reply to.
When Christians took back Spain they massacred all the inhabitants of the land. When Muslims came into Egypt, Coptics were only to pay a “ransom” or “tax” as some call it.
In the end, it would be foolish to believe that each religion “spread without violence”, because we are humans, and each religion has been distorted by humans through the years.
Egyptians were not killed as Christianity became established in Egypt, nor in Syria, nor in Greece.
Can you provide details of where this violence occurred?
When the Spanish liberated themselves from Islamic domination in Spain they were acting in a political/social manner. Why were the Muslims there? Because they have captured the land by violence? Why were the Muslims in Egypt? Because they captured the land by violence. Why did Muslims sweep across North Africa destroying ancient Christian civilizations wherever they went? Who asked them to? I don't know what the Spanish did in Spain, but they were freeing themselves as a political act, and if there were local excesses then this was not because of Christianity. Just as the bombs of the IRA were not Christian even if some of the terrorists thought they were Christians (there were not).
There were no Christian Armies which conquered Egypt, Greece, France, Britain etc etc. The Arab people's became Christian by their own desire and were given bishop George to minister to them.
When the Christian missionaries came to England they convinced the King to become a Christian by their manner of life. He refused to force anyone to become a Christian and allowed his people to respond to the Christian message as they chose. Indeed it is a Christian principle that belief cannot be forced.
Yet we know that throughout the history of Islamic oppression of Christian people's there has been a regular recourse to violence. The Armenian Genocide is just one of the more recent examples, in which 1,500,000 Armenian Christians were murdered, and the Islamic Imams of the Ottoman Empire had taught the ordinary people that killing Christians would be rewarded by Allah.
There is no general pattern of violence associated with Christianity (the use of violence by those claiming to be Christians does not count against the faith), yet throughout history Muslims have killed and enslaved Christians and others directly as a result of their Islamic faith. This does not mean all Muslims are at fault, but it does mean that it is reasonable to ask why the religion of Islam produces so much violence and continues to do so in a way that Christianity as a system of belief has never done.
With all due respect Masr the verse of No compulsion in Religion is Abrogated!!! and is replaced with the Verse of the Sword in al Tawba.
"Qatelo alzeni la yemeno bellah wa rasulo 7ata ya3to al Jizya wahom sagheroon"
ie "Fight those who dont believe in Allah and the Prophet till they pay the Jizzya while they are subdued"
Any Muslim scholar will till you that "No compulsion in Religion" is abrogated (Period). And If you came here trying to deceive us may God forgive you! but if you truly didn't know that it was abrogated then you better reconsider re-learning what Islam is before defending it.
It is not true at all that Christianity was spread by violence, far from it. It was spread at the cost of many thousands of Christians offering themselves to be put to death without violence.
Egyptians were not killed as Christianity became established in Egypt, nor in Syria, nor in Greece.
Can you provide details of where this violence occurred?
When the Spanish liberated themselves from Islamic domination in Spain they were acting in a political/social manner. Why were the Muslims there? Because they have captured the land by violence? Why were the Muslims in Egypt? Because they captured the land by violence. Why did Muslims sweep across North Africa destroying ancient Christian civilizations wherever they went? Who asked them to? I don't know what the Spanish did in Spain, but they were freeing themselves as a political act, and if there were local excesses then this was not because of Christianity. Just as the bombs of the IRA were not Christian even if some of the terrorists thought they were Christians (there were not).
There were no Christian Armies which conquered Egypt, Greece, France, Britain etc etc. The Arab people's became Christian by their own desire and were given bishop George to minister to them.
When the Christian missionaries came to England they convinced the King to become a Christian by their manner of life. He refused to force anyone to become a Christian and allowed his people to respond to the Christian message as they chose. Indeed it is a Christian principle that belief cannot be forced.
Yet we know that throughout the history of Islamic oppression of Christian people's there has been a regular recourse to violence. The Armenian Genocide is just one of the more recent examples, in which 1,500,000 Armenian Christians were murdered, and the Islamic Imams of the Ottoman Empire had taught the ordinary people that killing Christians would be rewarded by Allah.
There is no general pattern of violence associated with Christianity (the use of violence by those claiming to be Christians does not count against the faith), yet throughout history Muslims have killed and enslaved Christians and others directly as a result of their Islamic faith. This does not mean all Muslims are at fault, but it does mean that it is reasonable to ask why the religion of Islam produces so much violence and continues to do so in a way that Christianity as a system of belief has never done.
First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply to my post.
Now, back to the discussion, slavery in Africa, South America, etc was conducted with the intent of converting thousands and millions of Africans and other races. Many people were forced to convert or face death or torture. The crusades and the inquisition and corruption of the church back then have been widely documented and evident. “Holy Wars” were waged on non-believers, and anyone in the church could be tortured or executed as well. Those are all acts that contradict the very morals found in the Holy Bible, thus we can not abolish a whole religion based on the acts of humans. As previously stated many Christians also support the occupation of Israel to Palestinian lands, using the Old Testament to support their stance.
However it would be foolish for me to believe that “all Christians” have these violent motives, because I understand that you’re Holy Book, the Bible firmly stands against such acts. Islam also teaches us to respect the Bible, Torah and their holiness: "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).
As for the violence committed by Muslims this comes through what they believe is a “Western War against Islam”. However, it is simply a “Western war for the world’s resources”…many people continue to equate the acts of “Western” governments as acts against Islam itself. They believe that since America is a democracy, then general population should be held responsible for electing such leaders (outrages, I agree). Poverty, injustice from our own rulers and many other issues play a role in this “retaliation” against the West. I believe that we should to our own leaders prior to blaming America for our current state, however not everyone agrees with my view, but certainly the majority of Muslims do. God specifically states the He and only He has the right to punish the no believers, not us as humans.
Thanks again for replying, and I understand the skepctism that many people hold towards Islam, and as I previously stated, I do not blame those who do find it to be a violent religion. Because it is quite easy to simply google “Violent Quran verses” which are taken out of context; however to truly understand the essence of Islam it is required to read the Quran and Sunnas very carefully.
With all due respect Masr the verse of No compulsion in Religion is Abrogated!!! and is replaced with the Verse of the Sword in al Tawba.
"Qatelo alzeni la yemeno bellah wa rasulo 7ata ya3to al Jizya wahom sagheroon"
ie "Fight those who dont believe in Allah and the Prophet till they pay the Jizzya while they are subdued"
Any Muslim scholar will till you that "No compulsion in Religion" is abrogated (Period). And If you came here trying to deceive us may God forgive you! but if you truly didn't know that it was abrogated then you better reconsider re-learning what Islam is before defending it.
What do you mean by "abrogated"...that is a verse from the Quran. I am not here to decieve anyone, I'm here to have healthy discussion with fellow Egyptians. We have our differences, but that does not mean I am decieving anyone.
Thank You.
Thanks again for replying, and I understand the skepctism that many people hold towards Islam, and as I previously stated, I do not blame those who do find it to be a violent religion. Because it is quite easy to simply google “Violent Quran verses” which are taken out of context; however to truly understand the essence of Islam it is required to read the Quran and Sunnas very carefully.
Hey. I like you. really, i do. to speak that nicely about both religions and defending them. I ask one thing from you to do for me: watch this documentary and tell us what is your opinion about it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781#
I think you know well that even thoo the Qur'an speaks of the Bible, it speaks AGAINST IT!!! I can't say that i have read the Qur'an myself to say this.....but just understand the most general and basic beliefs of Christianity that are just as clear in the Bible as the sun's light on a perfect cloudless summer day; i mean the verses that requires no "interpretation" at all to understand.
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg121990#msg121990 date=1289434214]
Thanks again for replying, and I understand the skepctism that many people hold towards Islam, and as I previously stated, I do not blame those who do find it to be a violent religion. Because it is quite easy to simply google “Violent Quran verses” which are taken out of context; however to truly understand the essence of Islam it is required to read the Quran and Sunnas very carefully.
Hey. I like you. really, i do. to speak that nicely about both religions and defending them. I ask one thing from you to do for me: watch this documentary and tell us what is your opinion about it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781#
I think you know well that even thoo the Qur'an speaks of the Bible, it speaks AGAINST IT!!! I can't say that i have read the Qur'an myself to say this.....but just understand the most general and basic beliefs of Christianity that are just as clear in the Bible as the sun's light on a perfect cloudless summer day; i mean the verses that requires no "interpretation" at all to understand.
Damn man, that’s an hour and a half video. :D I’ll try watching the full movie, however, judging from the title of the video, I am sure it is another “Anti-Islamic” video that will take one side and tarnish it. I think we have all learned that the media could be very biased at times, and is not viable source to base our opinions on.
Eitherway, thanks for the video, I’ll try watching it, as I said.
Damn man, that’s an hour and a half video. :D I’ll try watching the full movie, however, judging from the title of the video, I am sure it is another “Anti-Islamic” video that will take one side and tarnish it. I think we have all learned that the media could be very biased at times, and is not viable source to base our opinions on.
Eitherway, thanks for the video, I’ll try watching it, as I said.
well that's the thing about this video....i believe they get MOST of both sides. ya3ny there are many converts in this video..also many who wrote general books about Islam. But please watch and understand. i gave this to someone before......instead of listening and thinking about what the people say, he just googled the interviewees names and goes like "They are all just conservative people." and i am like "REALLY! that's all you got from an hour an half video of people taking about the reality of Islam.