[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120479#msg120479 date=1286682224] Minagr, I dont understand the question.
you have said: [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120468#msg120468 date=1286671086] When my son hits or bites I dont politely ask him if we would prefer to stop hurting people, because he would say no. I tell him to stop or he will get spanked, and if he doesnt, he gets it. Simple. I dont hate him, but I do it because I love him and I think many of us have lost that aspect of love.
this whole story is based between the relationship between you and your son....my question is: what are deacons to you, brothers or sons? being a deacon yourself.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120481#msg120481 date=1286685905] I am not a father in the church. They are my brothers and I treat them as such.
Than whatever you just provided means NOTHING to what we are talking about here. when they become your sons in the Spirit then you can treat them that way. Until that time, we are your brothers......deal with us according to God's commandments.....In the Spirit of the love and the respect that God Himself became incarnate to do with us.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9833.msg120483#msg120483 date=1286686595] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120481#msg120481 date=1286685905] I am not a father in the church. They are my brothers and I treat them as such.
Than whatever you just provided means NOTHING to what we are talking about here. when they become your sons in the Spirit then you can treat them that way. Until that time, we are your brothers......deal with us according to God's commandments.....In the Spirit of the love and the respect that God Himself became incarnate to do with us.
Sure I do, I admonish them because I love them. Many of the deacons just stand there during service and fiddle around and dont pay attention, I am certainly not going to reward them for that and I dont do it in front of anyone. Because I dont do it the way YOU want me to does not mean its love. Dont be so foolish as to think I am some lunatic screaming at people for fun.
I think it is important that this doesn't become out of anger, but rather out of love as Ioannes said.
Let me tell you a story summarized from a book about Fr. Mikhail Ibrahim (most is directly copied):
One time during liturgy Fr. Mikhail brought out a young deacon who was serving on the altar. In front of the whole congregation he prostrated (did a metonia) before him 3 times and said I have sinned forgive me. At the end another priest spoke with him and said "You should never apologize to a young boy in this manner, in front of the whole congregation, while you are a respected elder. It should be done in private between you and him." Fr. Mikhail, with tearing eyes told him, "Oh Father if you only knew what happened, you would have told me to offer him one hundred prostrations."
The other Priest replied, "What have you done to deserve all this? After the Priest insisted on the answer Fr. Mikhail told him on the terms that this wouldn't be told while he was alive. Fr. Mikhail said that while he was standing in front of the altar, and reading the individual requests form the congregation, he saw an angel standing on the right side of the altar. He would see him appear and reappear each time he read a request. He was greatly comforted with this vision, but unfortunately, because of his sins, he was distracted because the young deacon was moving back and forth inside the altar. Fr. Mikhail scolded him to stop moving and to respect the altar.
At that moment the angel disappeared due to his anger, because the anger of man does not constitute the righteousness of God. Fr. Mikhail said about himself, "I am an angry man, God forgive me, and forgive him."
Let us, my brethern learn from this. I don't think that the angel dissappeared, because of the fact that Fr. Mikhail corrected him, but rather because there was probably anger during this. When a father spanks his child out of love it hurts him more than it hurts the child, but he does it for the child's benefit. Therefore it is important to discern whether what we are saying is out of love or is it judging. If it is out of love, then when we go home we should be praying with tears that God may stop people from disgracing the deacon ship, and then we justly say anything about it.
Fr. Tadros Malaty came to our church this weekend and in one of his sermons, he told a story about an 11 year old boy who sat down with him and told him that his dad was always yelling and would hit his mom, didn't pray or have a connection with God, and noone visited them because of this. Fr. Tadros said that he didn't know what to say and asked God "What O Lord do I say to him". He then told him, who is at fault? Is it you or your dad. Then the child told him, are you trying to say that everyone is wrong except him,to which Fr. Tadros replied, "no but how many times have you prayed specifically that God help your dad with tears", to which the child responded "none". He then asked him, how many times while you were reading the Bible or taking communion or praying, have you asked God that he help your dad enjoy that thing with Him. To this the child also responded "none".
Anyway, so the child went home, and treated his dad nicely, and made him tea, and served him, while constantly praying for him. The dad started to dramatically change and lost his anger, and became a Godly man, full of love. Truly this fulfills what Christ said, ""With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." God is ultimately the only one who can change this, and all your job is, is to be a tool for him to do this.
It is also important to note that I'm not attacking anyone nor saying that anyone here doesn't do this, but am rather putting this out there so that if there is someone who doesn't, that this may help them.
It is also amazing how much of a blessed man Fr. Mikhail was, as evidenced by the fact that Pope Shenouda chose that he be laid to rest under the cathedral in Egypt, and I advise anyone not knowing his story to look him up.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120495#msg120495 date=1286733174] Sure I do, I admonish them because I love them. Many of the deacons just stand there during service and fiddle around and dont pay attention, I am certainly not going to reward them for that and I dont do it in front of anyone. Because I dont do it the way YOU want me to does not mean its love. Dont be so foolish as to think I am some lunatic screaming at people for fun.
nonono....you misunderstood me. I am not talking about the way you are doing it; i am saying that it's not your place to do it. and even if you try to actually scream at them or simply till them "You are doing something wrong and you need to fix it," they will simply block as being their brother in rank.
Comments
Minagr, I dont understand the question.
you have said:
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120468#msg120468 date=1286671086]
When my son hits or bites I dont politely ask him if we would prefer to stop hurting people, because he would say no. I tell him to stop or he will get spanked, and if he doesnt, he gets it. Simple. I dont hate him, but I do it because I love him and I think many of us have lost that aspect of love.
this whole story is based between the relationship between you and your son....my question is: what are deacons to you, brothers or sons? being a deacon yourself.
I am not a father in the church. They are my brothers and I treat them as such.
Than whatever you just provided means NOTHING to what we are talking about here. when they become your sons in the Spirit then you can treat them that way. Until that time, we are your brothers......deal with us according to God's commandments.....In the Spirit of the love and the respect that God Himself became incarnate to do with us.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120481#msg120481 date=1286685905]
I am not a father in the church. They are my brothers and I treat them as such.
Than whatever you just provided means NOTHING to what we are talking about here. when they become your sons in the Spirit then you can treat them that way. Until that time, we are your brothers......deal with us according to God's commandments.....In the Spirit of the love and the respect that God Himself became incarnate to do with us.
Sure I do, I admonish them because I love them. Many of the deacons just stand there during service and fiddle around and dont pay attention, I am certainly not going to reward them for that and I dont do it in front of anyone. Because I dont do it the way YOU want me to does not mean its love. Dont be so foolish as to think I am some lunatic screaming at people for fun.
Let me tell you a story summarized from a book about Fr. Mikhail Ibrahim (most is directly copied):
Let us, my brethern learn from this. I don't think that the angel dissappeared, because of the fact that Fr. Mikhail corrected him, but rather because there was probably anger during this. When a father spanks his child out of love it hurts him more than it hurts the child, but he does it for the child's benefit. Therefore it is important to discern whether what we are saying is out of love or is it judging. If it is out of love, then when we go home we should be praying with tears that God may stop people from disgracing the deacon ship, and then we justly say anything about it.
Fr. Tadros Malaty came to our church this weekend and in one of his sermons, he told a story about an 11 year old boy who sat down with him and told him that his dad was always yelling and would hit his mom, didn't pray or have a connection with God, and noone visited them because of this. Fr. Tadros said that he didn't know what to say and asked God "What O Lord do I say to him". He then told him, who is at fault? Is it you or your dad. Then the child told him, are you trying to say that everyone is wrong except him,to which Fr. Tadros replied, "no but how many times have you prayed specifically that God help your dad with tears", to which the child responded "none". He then asked him, how many times while you were reading the Bible or taking communion or praying, have you asked God that he help your dad enjoy that thing with Him. To this the child also responded "none".
Anyway, so the child went home, and treated his dad nicely, and made him tea, and served him, while constantly praying for him. The dad started to dramatically change and lost his anger, and became a Godly man, full of love. Truly this fulfills what Christ said, ""With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." God is ultimately the only one who can change this, and all your job is, is to be a tool for him to do this.
It is also important to note that I'm not attacking anyone nor saying that anyone here doesn't do this, but am rather putting this out there so that if there is someone who doesn't, that this may help them.
It is also amazing how much of a blessed man Fr. Mikhail was, as evidenced by the fact that Pope Shenouda chose that he be laid to rest under the cathedral in Egypt, and I advise anyone not knowing his story to look him up.
Thank you all,
Anba Bola
Sure I do, I admonish them because I love them. Many of the deacons just stand there during service and fiddle around and dont pay attention, I am certainly not going to reward them for that and I dont do it in front of anyone. Because I dont do it the way YOU want me to does not mean its love. Dont be so foolish as to think I am some lunatic screaming at people for fun.
nonono....you misunderstood me. I am not talking about the way you are doing it; i am saying that it's not your place to do it. and even if you try to actually scream at them or simply till them "You are doing something wrong and you need to fix it," they will simply block as being their brother in rank.