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To Deacons
"For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." (1Tim 3:13)
I myself am an Anaghanostos, reader Deacon. The day that I was ordained was one of the greatest days of my life. I quickly came to the realization that many deacons do not see anything special about this rank, they take it for granted. We have some wonderful deacons at our church and I am very blessed to be able to learn from them, on the other hand many disgrace it.
There are three qualifications in a deacon:
1- to must be filled with the Holy Spirit and wise
2- to be ordained deacons, through the laying of hands and praying
3- to carry out specific responsibilities
Our teacher St. Paul mentioned some other qualifications in his first epistle to his disciple Timothy, chapter 3:
1- reverent 2- not double tongued
3- not given too much wine
4- not greedy for money
5- holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience
6- ruling their children and their own houses well
7- they should be tested first, and then, if they pass the test, they are to serve.
Our job as Reader Deacon, which is the rank most of us hold, is to read the daily chapters of the holy scripture, to learn and sing the hymns and especially to serve the priest and or bishop. We are to be an example to the people of the congregation, to be upstanding Christians, to teach and to preach, as well as learn from those above us.
What a wonderful thing to be a Deacon! To serve next to the body of Christ. St. Ignatius in his letter to the Trallians says that Deacons are the imitators of angelic powers. What an honor to be compared to the angels, to imitate them. As they sing, praise, and worship God, so too do we in the altar, gather around our Lord as the angels. This is a big responsibility and should not be taken lightly, we are a rank serving in the heaven on earth, the divine liturgy.
There is no reason to serve as a Deacon of any rank if you are not able to maintain self control, pray daily, fast, and be a model Christian for the people. I am tired of seeing unworthy deacons and hearing of the horrible actions of deacons, we all make mistakes but living in the world and serving as a Deacon is unacceptable. Either take this blessing seriously or cease being a Deacon, so you do not continue to disgrace the rank.
God Bless.
I myself am an Anaghanostos, reader Deacon. The day that I was ordained was one of the greatest days of my life. I quickly came to the realization that many deacons do not see anything special about this rank, they take it for granted. We have some wonderful deacons at our church and I am very blessed to be able to learn from them, on the other hand many disgrace it.
There are three qualifications in a deacon:
1- to must be filled with the Holy Spirit and wise
2- to be ordained deacons, through the laying of hands and praying
3- to carry out specific responsibilities
Our teacher St. Paul mentioned some other qualifications in his first epistle to his disciple Timothy, chapter 3:
1- reverent 2- not double tongued
3- not given too much wine
4- not greedy for money
5- holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience
6- ruling their children and their own houses well
7- they should be tested first, and then, if they pass the test, they are to serve.
Our job as Reader Deacon, which is the rank most of us hold, is to read the daily chapters of the holy scripture, to learn and sing the hymns and especially to serve the priest and or bishop. We are to be an example to the people of the congregation, to be upstanding Christians, to teach and to preach, as well as learn from those above us.
What a wonderful thing to be a Deacon! To serve next to the body of Christ. St. Ignatius in his letter to the Trallians says that Deacons are the imitators of angelic powers. What an honor to be compared to the angels, to imitate them. As they sing, praise, and worship God, so too do we in the altar, gather around our Lord as the angels. This is a big responsibility and should not be taken lightly, we are a rank serving in the heaven on earth, the divine liturgy.
There is no reason to serve as a Deacon of any rank if you are not able to maintain self control, pray daily, fast, and be a model Christian for the people. I am tired of seeing unworthy deacons and hearing of the horrible actions of deacons, we all make mistakes but living in the world and serving as a Deacon is unacceptable. Either take this blessing seriously or cease being a Deacon, so you do not continue to disgrace the rank.
God Bless.
Comments
Let me tell you: I AGREE WITH YOU 100%!!!!!
However, you will get no takers. Most of the diaconate now is just alhan, stage production, to get chicks to notice you so you can get married, and there is also the rock star syndrome.
The reason it so, is because it is so. THERE IS NO DISCIPLINE. THEY DON'T READ OR STUDY THE BIBLE.
How can I prove my point, because Zoxsasi will ask me to prove it:
1. The churches (esp. the altars) look like a total mess.
2. The deacons when they come to read at the pulpit cannot pronounce most of the words or articulate them well. They have
no conviction in reading the Word of God.
3. Some will leave the Rites and Sacraments to go talk on their mobiles in the back to girls and the such.
4. They come in looking like complete messes as if they came from the basketball court rather than coming to see the King of Kings.
5. They do not have a regard for the Sacraments for their own self.
6. Look at the vestment closet in each church, it looks disgusting. For those who are older, they do not do anything about it, and for those who are younger they just throw things in their.
7. God forbid you correct someone, in whatever form.
I wish I had a camera to document all of the above.
I know I will get the following statements, so for those who are going to do so, I will save you having to write them:
1. You should pray about the matter.
2. You should not be judgmental.
3. Abouna appoints specific people to take care of each matter. Not every deacon can take care of everything.
4. I do not see the things you are saying.
5. What do you expect from kids?
6. What do you expect from boys?
7. My church looks great, I do not know what you are talking about.
8. Let us sing Kumbaya together and maybe you will feel better.
9. Maybe you should get off your tail and do something about it.
10. Well, they have to meet girls somehow. We want them to marry Coptic girls.
11. We do not have rock and roll in the church. What is this rock star syndrome?
12. They will learn.
13. What is your solution, big mouth?
14. Why don't you do something about it?
15. Just tell abouna, and he will take care of it with the other 1000 things. Abouna has time for all of this, he has nothing better to do.
16. I'm deaf, so I like it when the deacons stick their microphone through mouth, throat, larynx, pharynx, and bowels to make those
horrid sounds.
17. I do not read english so I cannot understand what you are saying.
18. What was the topic again?
19. I'm not a deacon so I should not read this post.
20. I'm a girl, can you introduce me to one of these deacons.
21. I do not know what fasting, reading the bible, praying, cleaning, and the such are. I am a hermit.
22. If it is not on the projector, I cannot relate to it.
23. You are just crazy, insensitive, and judgmental.
24. Have you tried talking to the person?
25. Did you pray about it?
So, Ioannes, I guess ours will be the only two posts on this thread. I have already taken the liberty of commenting and rendering all critical arguments to the contrary. And, by the way, I am not exaggerating. I could have used words which apertain to pigs and stys but I refrained in ordered not to be offensive. However, I hope I was offensive because if you think you are upset, I am 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (for the math majors is 10^27 and for the Chem majors greater than Avogadro's Number)more upset. Which is even a number greater than the U.S. National debt.
I have a feeling I am starting a war. So what. Bring it on. Write those posts. I will read them and still say: show me the proof otherwise (sorry to borrow your line Zoxsasi).
The Church in the UK is REALLY this... especially in Kensington. lol
They might as well call it "Coptic's Got Talent" or "Coptic Idol", but the behaviour of the deacons has nothing to do with Christianity after the mass, outside the mass, or even outside of the Church.
If you could applaud in the Church, then this would be the only recognition these yoyos need to keep them going and learning more hymns.
And Coptic isn't a language they love for them. Its an excuse to sing solo in a language that THEY KNOW that no one else understands. The fact that no one else knows coptic, they can basically "run the show".
I like the tasbeha very much, but I love more the agpeya. Sorry guys.
As for reading the Bible, etc... I admit, I'm no expert on it, but I'm just a baby deacon anyway. Although I would like to know scriptures more, as a deacon, they don't respect anyone with reading skills, or knowledge when they hand out the readings.
Any deacon comes up, reads stuff and leaves, whether he mumbles or not, whether he even understands what he's saying is debatable.
Sorry, to sound pessimistic but, the church in Belgium is probably small (I assume). Give it enough time and you will have a real "reality show".
The real question is: The Devil is on the rise and attacking, what are we doing to counter and repulse him?
The censer, with its constituent portions, has symbolism of: The Theotokos, the Incarnate Christ, the 12 Apostles, the sky, the Heavens, and the Holy Trinity. I will bet you it has not been cleaned in at least six months (since the Resurrection Feast, if it was even done). Prove me wrong.
It is a discipline and a symbol. Why does the military polish and clean everything on them?--discipline and symbolism.
I do believe that there should be a great deal of strictness about the diaconal ranks. It is not helpful that everyone is called a deacon in English, rather than by the rank they hold. There should be clear requirements for progress through each rank, both in terms of spiritual progress and knowledge of theology and the scriptures. Those who do not serve properly, especially in terms of humility and attention, should not be allowed to serve for a time. Service should be understood as a great blessing and responsibility, not a right.
We have sometimes had posted that list of rules for servants from one of the US diocoses, and it seems to me that that list is not oppressive. It simply reflects how servants should act as a matter of course.
As a matter of spiritual discipline it might often be good for the servant who thinks he is very good at one job to be given another so that he does not become proud, or think that he owns any particular task, rather than being the servant of the Deacon, and of the Priest. I have always enjoyed serving with a full Deacon who directs the liturgy with precision and efficiency, saying do this and do that and it all happens so that the priest never need worry about being distracted at all.
As a priest let me say that it is a great blessing indeed to put out my hand and find it filled with a censer without my even looking round, and to hold out my hand and find the censer taken without any fuss, or whatever the need of the moment is. It is a great blessing to have finished my coffee or whatever after the liturgy and have my servants say, "Don't worry Father, you head off, we will take care of everything", and know that they will. It is a great blessing to have servants who truly are servant-hearted in all things.
May we all be such.
Father Peter
These kids are usually separated into 2 parts... there are some that know their tai shori and praxis response.... these kids think they are me3allems and they stand 2 inches from the microphone.
The other kids are usually in the back talking and giggling every time abouna pronounces a word in a funny accent, or playing on their phones!
I really think churches need to regulate who can become a deacon, and not just teach alhan, or make them memorize prayers! They need to understand the spirituality of the alhan they're singing and the importance of their rank in the church!
And once these kids get older becoming a deacon is a habit instead of a blessing.... which leads to the disgraceful deacons ionaes mentioned!
And seriously I consider murder during the mass because of all these kids!!!
I think the deacons that are serious need to start speaking out and telling it like it is. The end is now, there is no time for games, for reality shows and rockstar deacons.
are you sure that we have never met in Saint Mark's JC before.......well you are from there as you said, but where do you serve now?
1. The churches (esp. the altars) look like a total mess.
2. The deacons when they come to read at the pulpit cannot pronounce most of the words or articulate them well. They have
no conviction in reading the Word of God.
3. Some will leave the Rites and Sacraments to go talk on their mobiles in the back to girls and the such.
4. They come in looking like complete messes as if they came from the basketball court rather than coming to see the King of Kings.
5. They do not have a regard for the Sacraments for their own self.
6. Look at the vestment closet in each church, it looks disgusting. For those who are older, they do not do anything about it, and for those who are younger they just throw things in their.
7. God forbid you correct someone, in whatever form.
I wish I had a camera to document all of the above.
I'd like to add just one more thing to your list ilovesaintmark that gets on my nerves in church:
Deacons who go out clubbing, smoking weed, drinking, and going out to do inappropriate things with girls and then coming to church and dressing as deacons as if nothing happened the night before.
I'm in the Chicago area. I visit NY/NJ every once in a while. I would not say I really serve anymore. I do not like to get involved. It is not my cup of tea--anymore.
Godlovesme,
I did not want to be that blatant, but you are absolutely correct--unfortunately.
Where have you been? I have not seen many of your posts. Hope all is well.
"There is no reason to serve as a Deacon of any rank if you are not able to maintain self control, pray daily, fast, and be a model Christian for the people. I am tired of seeing unworthy deacons and hearing of the horrible actions of deacons, we all make mistakes but living in the world and serving as a Deacon is unacceptable. Either take this blessing seriously or cease being a Deacon, so you do not continue to disgrace the rank."
Yes, you are right in everything you said but why are you bringing it up on this website? If you have an issue, instead of whining do something about it! Talk to your priest, or FOC and get something initiated that makes it stricter to serve. Do you teach? If not then you are in no position to judge the teachers or those who have been doing what you do longer. You know what I am sick of? People who complain and take no action! Also what makes you the model Christian worthy of this rank?
Enough is enough guys. I don't mean anything as a personal attack on anyone but I am frustrated with what I am reading. Take what I said however you will..
Pray for me and my weakness
Minagir,
Where have you been? I have not seen many of your posts. Hope all is well.
well....here. school started....and it sucks. not as free to search and try to answer questions in a full way. i only reply to posts that i can write short answers to.
When you come to the area tell me...i would love to meet you.
Lets calm down for a second.
Firstly, Ioannes cares. He cares a lot. He knows his faults, and that is actually very important because it is at least a realization of wrong. In the other sense, the frustration comes when the "other deacons" are labeled they do not see any wrong. They do not feel any wrong. This is fine, because we all have free will, and we will all be accountable for our actions and sins before Almighty God.
Secondly, the acts that were mentioned identify a lack of discipline, which does disqualify oneself from service and ministry. It identifies an arrogance and pride beyond the basic, because it is within the realm of service and ministry from a qualified Holy Sacrament. Deacons are examples (whether one likes it or not). Deacons are supposed to marshal the people. They are supposed to lead the people. If one cannot be an example, then one needs to appreciate their weakness and bow out until they become more disciplined and are able to serve.
Thirdly, a bad apple spoils the whole barrel. This is the effect that is happening, whether: attire, speech, character, function, action.
Fourthly, there is just simple courtesy, dignity, and politeness.
I feel Ioannes' pain and frustration, because I truly am at a point way beyond his. I am speaking candidly, and I have a right to express myself.
People can be impolite, rude, improper, etc., but ultimately they do not have a right to impose this as a norm on my being nor in my worship. I do not want to stand in the altar and have to hear the discussion between two deacons (in the altar) about certain girls and their anatomy. If I leave that area and go to another part, I have to hear some deacon rehearsing a response to be said. I go to another area and a father is passing his keys to his child to gingle in the altar. I go to the opposite side and I have to hear the girls in the altar talking about their clothes, boyfriends, and every other thing. I go to the central altar and there are deacons plopped down going through their text messages, sending text messages, sleeping, snoring, talking, laughing, telling jokes, trying to light candle tapers, and sitting legs spread as if they were in a gym. These are all descriptives in the holiest place of all--in the altar. It is not just in my parish, it is in every parish I have gone to. You cannot avoid it.
I have tried to express myself to these people. I have been cursed with a multitude of four letter abstract curses. I have had my lapel grabbed. I have had the finger put to my chest. I have had some little twit tell me that we will sue me. Mind you JY, all in the altar.
This is where my upset is. I am open to suggestions. And although I make light of the matter, I pray fervently for the issue. I do not open my mouth anymore, because I do ascribe to the verse: "What profits a man if he gains the whole world and loses himself." I love my Church. I am a Coptic, I am not an Egyptian. Most certainly I love God. I am fortunate that God gives us wonderful priests. I pray for the priests in our given area and in Church-at-large. I keep a list of their names and I utter each one in my daily prayers. I pray for those who have done me wrong and for those I have wronged.
Ioannes can handle his posts himself. He is a big boy. In my regard, if you had umbrage with my post--so be it, but do not end it with "Pray for me and my weakness". The two portions of your post would place your words as contradictory. You bite from one side of your mouth and express meekness from the other side. It does not work that way. Try to be consistent. If you are going to bite, stick with it. Do not hide behind the statement.
You are offended by what I said because you know its true, and most likely true about yourself, otherwise there is no reason to be so offended by a statement that everyone agrees with. So what I suggest is that you shut your mouth, stop criticizing people that you dont know and take this to heart and become a better deacon. Dont ever speak to me that way again.
Jydeacon, very bold words from someone who knows nothing about me. Well let me tell you since you seem to enjoy jumping to conclusions, ad hominim attacks, and gross generalizations. I DO many things about this and other problems facing our church. I usually dont make a big deal about it or discuss what I do in my church, but to shut your arrogant mouth I will tell you. First off I do teach, that is part of my job as a Deacon. I also write books that lazy people like you refuse to buy, assuming because you know it all right? You seem to know me and what I do so there is no need to read any of my books because you know it all. I lecture our deacons all the time and I save the tongue lashings for them and people like you.
I thought you are a "Big Boy" as ilovesaintmark just said and you can handle answering JY well?! annnnnnnnnd........you just fill in the same sin of "criticizing people that you dont know"
amazing......
i think this is better than answering posts ilovesaintmark; watching ppl destroy each other i mean.
Jydeacon, very bold words from someone who knows nothing about me. Well let me tell you since you seem to enjoy jumping to conclusions, ad hominim attacks, and gross generalizations. I DO many things about this and other problems facing our church. I usually dont make a big deal about it or discuss what I do in my church, but to shut your arrogant mouth I will tell you. First off I do teach, that is part of my job as a Deacon. I also write books that lazy people like you refuse to buy, assuming because you know it all right? You seem to know me and what I do so there is no need to read any of my books because you know it all. I lecture our deacons all the time and I save the tongue lashings for them and people like you.
You are offended by what I said because you know its true, and most likely true about yourself, otherwise there is no reason to be so offended by a statement that everyone agrees with. So what I suggest is that you shut your mouth, stop criticizing people that you dont know and take this to heart and become a better deacon. Dont ever speak to me that way again.
Thats a two way statement, bold words from you assuming that I was directing my post at you, seems a bit arrogant of you. I was directing it at the entire website as a matter of fact. Secondly you don't know me either? How do you know what I read? Don't take your frustration at your low sales out on me and call me lazy. I also prefer to go to real fathers, such as st cyrl or other apostolic fathers rather than contemporary writers. Seems like you are guilty of what you accuse me of. Lowers your credibility a little.
Lastly, I was in no way offended by the post in as much as the content. What is happening in the deaconate is disgusting to say the least. What I am upset about is everyone coming to this website and complaining about it, if you have an issue take it up in your parish bringing it to the website isn't going to solve it. I have my own frustrations and more so than you do. So you can believe what you want about me and say what you want.
Ilovesaintmark,
Like I said to Ioannes, I have no issue with the content of either of the posts you have just put up. However, this is the wrong medium. No matter how frustrated one is, posting on here will not solve it. Secondly I was not being meek. I know I am weak and I have been posting that at the end of my posts since I joined this website. I am not hiding behind my statement. I stick by what I said.
Ilovesaintmark,
Like I said to Ioannes, I have no issue with the content of either of the posts you have just put up. However, this is the wrong medium. No matter how frustrated one is, posting on here will not solve it. Secondly I was not being meek. I know I am weak and I have been posting that at the end of my posts since I joined this website. I am not hiding behind my statement. I stick by what I said.
I agree to a certain extent.....nothing we do hear will ever change anything.....
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9833.msg120427#msg120427 date=1286586963]
Jydeacon, very bold words from someone who knows nothing about me. Well let me tell you since you seem to enjoy jumping to conclusions, ad hominim attacks, and gross generalizations. I DO many things about this and other problems facing our church. I usually dont make a big deal about it or discuss what I do in my church, but to shut your arrogant mouth I will tell you. First off I do teach, that is part of my job as a Deacon. I also write books that lazy people like you refuse to buy, assuming because you know it all right? You seem to know me and what I do so there is no need to read any of my books because you know it all. I lecture our deacons all the time and I save the tongue lashings for them and people like you.
You are offended by what I said because you know its true, and most likely true about yourself, otherwise there is no reason to be so offended by a statement that everyone agrees with. So what I suggest is that you shut your mouth, stop criticizing people that you dont know and take this to heart and become a better deacon. Dont ever speak to me that way again.
Thats a two way statement, bold words from you assuming that I was directing my post at you, seems a bit arrogant of you. I was directing it at the entire website as a matter of fact. Secondly you don't know me either? How do you know what I read? Don't take your frustration at your low sales out on me and call me lazy. I also prefer to go to real fathers, such as st cyrl or other apostolic fathers rather than contemporary writers. Seems like you are guilty of what you accuse me of. Lowers your credibility a little.
Lastly, I was in no way offended by the post in as much as the content. What is happening in the deaconate is disgusting to say the least. What I am upset about is everyone coming to this website and complaining about it, if you have an issue take it up in your parish bringing it to the website isn't going to solve it. I have my own frustrations and more so than you do. So you can believe what you want about me and say what you want.
Ilovesaintmark,
Like I said to Ioannes, I have no issue with the content of either of the posts you have just put up. However, this is the wrong medium. No matter how frustrated one is, posting on here will not solve it. Secondly I was not being meek. I know I am weak and I have been posting that at the end of my posts since I joined this website. I am not hiding behind my statement. I stick by what I said.
Jy, you are a hipocrite plain and simple. First you said that we are complaining and doing nothing. THEN you say we shouldnt post it here and we should take it up with those in the church. I posted this to see if others shared the same experience that way I could gauge as to how bad it could possibly be. I am judging you by what you said towards me, your leap to conclusion, your rash generalizations, and condescending tone. Judging by that I am totally justified in putting you in your place.
I also posted here to try and give an idea to the deacons of what is expected of them, it seems that nowhere is the right forum being that nobody wants to hear the complaints in the church let alone do anything about it. I am glad you have been posting that you are weak, maybe one day you will actually know what it is to be meek. All you have done is directed your anger towards me and others, and insulted me personally. Thanks, really meek of you. LOL
Can we get back on topic and ignore Jy, atleast until he calms down.
Can we get back on topic and ignore Jy, atleast until he calms down.
I don't think there is anything else to get back to. All we need now is just a daily minute to minute video of your life being a deacon (since we are not readers of books--because we are "lazy people [who] refuse to buy [books], assuming [we] know it all"--) so watching a video would definitely make us better deacons.....that's without actually being out there, being DEACONS!!
minagir,
That is a wonderful idea (although I am not a deacon) ;)
HEHE....it's just a matter of time that Fr Peter comes and cleans up this mess....
God bless us all
My initial post was geared completely at the Coptic (Egyptian side) there was no intent on the British side.
My comments about the censer were directed (as a follow-up) to Zoxsasi's comments. I forgot to put his name at the top since it was right after my own post (it was a continuation). It was not directed at the British. I was purely talking about the Coptic (Egyptian) side of things. Hope you were not offended. I apologize dearly if it was taken as such.
And one more thing: I'm not apologizing for anything I said, because it is all true.
That THE most amazing post ever. Major kudos.
It is a good idea to make a video but I think there needs to be an overall change on how things are done, and a certain amount of accountability for their actions. It is good to love and to speak lovingly, but sometimes love is harsh and in the case of abuse within the church of a certain rank, it needs to be dealt with swiftly. When my son hits or bites I dont politely ask him if we would prefer to stop hurting people, because he would say no. I tell him to stop or he will get spanked, and if he doesnt, he gets it. Simple. I dont hate him, but I do it because I love him and I think many of us have lost that aspect of love.
It is a good idea to make a video but I think there needs to be an overall change on how things are done, and a certain amount of accountability for their actions. It is good to love and to speak lovingly, but sometimes love is harsh and in the case of abuse within the church of a certain rank, it needs to be dealt with swiftly. When my son hits or bites I dont politely ask him if we would prefer to stop hurting people, because he would say no. I tell him to stop or he will get spanked, and if he doesnt, he gets it. Simple. I dont hate him, but I do it because I love him and I think many of us have lost that aspect of love.
quick question: are other deacons your sons or your brothers?