Strictly speaking Vespers is not part of the liturgy as well if we follow your explanation, simply because we don't pray Vespers before every liturgy (Lent for instance), however we ALWAYS pray matins before a liturgy. So strictly speaking matins is the only prayer as a preparation of the altar. I was always thaught that the liturgy started with the psalms of the 11th and 12th hour before the vesper praise all the way up to the 3rd and 6th hour before the Offertory, because all these prayers prepare us for the liturgy. That is my humble opinion though!
Also lets say sunday was the 29th of the month, not a major feast, then why would vespers be joyous tune? My point is that Vespers MUST follow the rites according to the next day, because vespers isn't a prayer for today, it's for tomorrow. Just like the readings.
Vespers would be joyous because it's a preparation for tomorrow as you pointed out, which is also the reason we would say aktonk. The big question (and this was the main point of discussion actually) is whether this means that we consider the vespers to be adam instead of watos. Another point of discussion is whether vesper praise is concidered a part of the vespers (I personally think it is), but if you disagree then I'd like to ask why! Why do we call it vesper praise then? Why is it prayed right before vespers?
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79155#msg79155 date=1194384380] Sorry to burst your bubble but i still don't agree. No one has given me any evidence of me being wrong. Whereas my sources tell me I am right. My sources are A. Anba Gregorious B. An article I read (Still trying to find it) and C. A Epideacon in my church as well as other deacons who have gone to a theological school and have studied all of these things.
till u have the source, we still stand with the conclusion....
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79159#msg79159 date=1194388809] the vespers praise though has is not PART of the liturgy. Vespers is. Vespers prepares for the liturgy while the vespers praises doesn't. It almost has nothing to do with the liturgy. It is more of a time of meditation and prayer. Vespers is Part of the liturgy. the very first part. If you study the parts of the liturgy you will find it to be Vespers then Matins, midnight praises are not part of the liturgy either. It is not something that is done as a preparation of the alter, but as a preparation of ourselves. Also lets say sunday was the 29th of the month, not a major feast, then why would vespers be joyous tune? My point is that Vespers MUST follow the rites according to the next day, because vespers isn't a prayer for today, it's for tomorrow. Just like the readings.
what are you saying ya habibi. vespers praises are part odf vespers and vespers is part of the liturgy. it's all connected togather. to prepare us or the church it doesn't matter....it's part of the whole process.
His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79162#msg79162 date=1194391933] His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
IF A BISHOP AND MANY PRIESTS AND DEACONS (ACTUAL DEACONS) ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAN YOU ARE STUBBORN MY FRIEND. Hos Erof, you have the freedom to post whatever you would like. That is the whole point of our faith, finding the truth through asking questions. Where are your sources mina? I haven't seen any that make us wrong. If you do not have a source then what you are sayng is INVALID. I have sources, therefore What i say is valid. Also, who says we should not take the time literally. You need to understand that everything should be done according to what is written. If we did not take time literally than we can celebrate Good Friday a week early, maybe end lent 3 weeks early and extend the 50 days to about 150, thats cool right? Maybe we can cut some parts out of the liturgy and maybe make it a half hour. Thats convenient right? I'm glad you think so.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132] actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
His Servant i must respectfully disagree with you, whether you have sources or not you do not a have a valid source(to me at least which i am sure does not mean much) if you are going to source anybody you should source somebody such as Anba Youseff or the head of the committee that decides on the rites of the church(i forgot who it was) and i have not met a priest that has said say amoini marenousht and i have met some extremely strict priests and they all said say tenoosht. the fact is there is not always one way that is gonna be agreed upon by everyone such as Tishori or Taishori for the feast of the cross, some say tishori because it deals with salvation some say taishori because it is a festive day, until we get a ruling by the Holy Synod on what to say or by an official document from the committee that decides on the rites just do what your local church does and follow it until there is an official decision made
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79167#msg79167 date=1194396476] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79162#msg79162 date=1194391933] His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
IF A BISHOP AND MANY PRIESTS AND DEACONS (ACTUAL DEACONS) ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAN YOU ARE STUBBORN MY FRIEND. Hos Erof, you have the freedom to post whatever you would like. That is the whole point of our faith, finding the truth through asking questions. Where are your sources mina? I haven't seen any that make us wrong. If you do not have a source then what you are sayng is INVALID. I have sources, therefore What i say is valid. Also, who says we should not take the time literally. You need to understand that everything should be done according to what is written. If we did not take time literally than we can celebrate Good Friday a week early, maybe end lent 3 weeks early and extend the 50 days to about 150, thats cool right? Maybe we can cut some parts out of the liturgy and maybe make it a half hour. Thats convenient right? I'm glad you think so.
first i haven't spoken to any BISHOPS, PRIESTS, OR "REAL" DEACON about this and we are STILL waiting for your source....u don't have it, u don't find it.....u have nothing.
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132] actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132] actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79180#msg79180 date=1194415522] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132] actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
you don't follow the literal Jewish day timing....we just take the tradition of that. our church is timeless. one way to show that is how the processions in the liturgy are done, including the ones on the altar before the pauline and the acts. they go counterclockwise, against time.....
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79167#msg79167 date=1194396476] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79162#msg79162 date=1194391933] His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
IF A BISHOP AND MANY PRIESTS AND DEACONS (ACTUAL DEACONS) ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAN YOU ARE STUBBORN MY FRIEND. Hos Erof, you have the freedom to post whatever you would like. That is the whole point of our faith, finding the truth through asking questions.
I've attended many conferences with loads of bisschops, priests and actual ekleriki deacons, and we said "tenouwst" and nobody objected. It seems, just like I said, that this is something that is practised in 2 different ways. And like jydeacon said, if you don't have actual prove from an authoritive source (like anba mattaos, or the decisions of a recent holy synod council), then you only present an opinion, and not an actual rite.
I have sources, therefore What i say is valid. Also, who says we should not take the time literally. You need to understand that everything should be done according to what is written. If we did not take time literally than we can celebrate Good Friday a week early, maybe end lent 3 weeks early and extend the 50 days to about 150, thats cool right? Maybe we can cut some parts out of the liturgy and maybe make it a half hour. Thats convenient right? I'm glad you think so.
Time is not to be taken litteraly in the sense that we don't always go strictly by the time in which prayers should be prayed. An example is that we take all agpeya hours on lent days and pray them at 10 in the morning, while the 12th hour normally is prayed in the evening. Another example is that in common practise we pray the midnight praise in the evening and not early in the morning. There is also no need for sarcasm, nobody said we should cut the liturgy to half an hour. Can we keep this discussion polite and decent. We are discussing a simple matter, no needs for shouting or name calling from anyone.
Albair explains in his introduction to the Verses that Vespers is concidered a preparation of the Liturgy, but not a part of the liturgy (remember that we don't necessarely have to pray a Vespers before a liturgy, but we do have to pray Matins like I pointed out in a previous post). So the prayers of the Vespers follow the watos/adam tune of the actual day, in the case of saturday evening it is Watos.
[quote author=gergesezzat link=topic=5903.msg79216#msg79216 date=1194549815] Hi all well, what is the deference between adam and vatos introduction? in deferent way why there is adam and vatos introduction.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79219#msg79219 date=1194552387] [quote author=gergesezzat link=topic=5903.msg79216#msg79216 date=1194549815] Hi all well, what is the deference between adam and vatos introduction? in deferent way why there is adam and vatos introduction.
Gerges, There are different introductions for Adam and Watos days because Adam days are different than Watos days. Adam days are Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday while Watos days are Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. I am not absolutely sure why they are two different introductions, but to answer your first question, there really isn't any differences in the meaning of each introduction, but there are many differences in what kind of language it was used and how it was translated. For instance, Adam days introductions begin with [coptic]Amwini marenouwst[/coptic] which means "Let us worship", and Watos days introductions begin with [coptic]Tenouwst[/coptic] which means "We worship" (both of which are synonyms). If you do not understand, just ask and I'll try to PM you.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79187#msg79187 date=1194454884] [quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79180#msg79180 date=1194415522] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132] actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
you don't follow the literal Jewish day timing....we just take the tradition of that. our church is timeless. one way to show that is how the processions in the liturgy are done, including the ones on the altar before the pauline and the acts. they go counterclockwise, against time.....
Mina, You are incorrect about the Church being timeless, our Church isn't timeless, but the heavenly Church is. Also, in heaven and ONLY IN HEAVEN, there is no such thing as time. We are nothing but humans who live on this Earth where time is always running and the Church is not an exception. Also, if you believe that our Church is timeless, then explain to me for what reason did our Church create the hours of the Agpeya, as well as the Paschal hours. P.S.: The Zeffe's go counterclockwise to represent against time. I agree with you, but when we are in procession, we are in a heavenly procession rather than an earthly procession. Our worship on Earth is earthly worship, even though this worship is in respect to God, and this is true because we do this worship on Earth rather than in Heaven, but the Zeffe is the representation of angels rejoicing at such a great work that happened that day from God (the ONLY exception: Judas's Betrayal, where we go clockwise to represent the angels in remorse and that time was winding down to the Lord's death).
At least this much: ;D [quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79224#msg79224 date=1194560075] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79187#msg79187 date=1194454884] [quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79180#msg79180 date=1194415522] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921] [quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511] [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132] actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
you don't follow the literal Jewish day timing....we just take the tradition of that. our church is timeless. one way to show that is how the processions in the liturgy are done, including the ones on the altar before the pauline and the acts. they go counterclockwise, against time.....
Mina, You are incorrect about the Church being timeless, our Church isn't timeless, but the heavenly Church is. Also, in heaven and ONLY IN HEAVEN, there is no such thing as time. We are nothing but humans who live on this Earth where time is always running and the Church is not an exception. Also, if you believe that our Church is timeless, then explain to me for what reason did our Church create the hours of the Agpeya, as well as the Paschal hours. P.S.: The Zeffe's go counterclockwise to represent against time. I agree with you, but when we are in procession, we are in a heavenly procession rather than an earthly procession. Our worship on Earth is earthly worship, even though this worship is in respect to God, and this is true because we do this worship on Earth rather than in Heaven, but the Zeffe is the representation of angels rejoicing at such a great work that happened that day from God (the ONLY exception: Judas's Betrayal, where we go clockwise to represent the angels in remorse and that time was winding down to the Lord's death).
I have a question. Is God standing in heaven, glancing at his watch every other minute to see whether we pray at the right time? Certaintly not. God could not care less when you pray, the important thing is how you pray. I can pray prime at night if I want (told to me by my Father of Confession), what matters is my heart and not the time. We need to stop sitting by the shallow water and go into the depths, where we will find eternal life.
[quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=5903.msg79236#msg79236 date=1194573558] I have a question. Is God standing in heaven, glancing at his watch every other minute to see whether we pray at the right time? Certaintly not. God could not care less when you pray, the important thing is how you pray. I can pray prime at night if I want (told to me by my Father of Confession), what matters is my heart and not the time. We need to stop sitting by the shallow water and go into the depths, where we will find eternal life.
thanks you for this.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79224#msg79224 date=1194560075] Mina, You are incorrect about the Church being timeless, our Church isn't timeless, but the heavenly Church is. Also, in heaven and ONLY IN HEAVEN, there is no such thing as time. We are nothing but humans who live on this Earth where time is always running and the Church is not an exception. Also, if you believe that our Church is timeless, then explain to me for what reason did our Church create the hours of the Agpeya, as well as the Paschal hours. P.S.: The Zeffe's go counterclockwise to represent against time. I agree with you, but when we are in procession, we are in a heavenly procession rather than an earthly procession. Our worship on Earth is earthly worship, even though this worship is in respect to God, and this is true because we do this worship on Earth rather than in Heaven, but the Zeffe is the representation of angels rejoicing at such a great work that happened that day from God (the ONLY exception: Judas's Betrayal, where we go clockwise to represent the angels in remorse and that time was winding down to the Lord's death).
what was said before is a very nice spiritual point....even thooo it is, still, give me time to get my source of what i said. but if u think about it.....can u deny that the church is in fact heaven on earth??!!!!!!
one thing i said wrong was that the church is timeless what i ment to say is that the church is above time because it is not of this world. i still stand to my example of the procession and on the believing that the church is the heaven on earth as witnessed for by many fathers.
Mina, Your procession example would work because it is far more than just a procession. There are many rituals said and done in those processions. Not just rituals, but hymns as well. I could keep talking about how much the Church puts in the processions that make them unique as well as important of how it is heavenly and not earthly, but I don't need to. You probably get the point. The Church could be heaven on earth, and could be above time, BUT explain to me why the Church goes faster when time is running out? If Church is "timeless" then the Church should always stay at a constant pace not worrying about when they end or begin.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79318#msg79318 date=1194922077] Mina, Your procession example would work because it is far more than just a procession. There are many rituals said and done in those processions. Not just rituals, but hymns as well. I could keep talking about how much the Church puts in the processions that make them unique as well as important of how it is heavenly and not earthly, but I don't need to. You probably get the point. The Church could be heaven on earth, and could be above time, BUT explain to me why the Church goes faster when time is running out? If Church is "timeless" then the Church should always stay at a constant pace not worrying about when they end or begin.
well like i said before, i wanted to say "above time as to "timeless".
but if oyu think about it. church is heaven on earth. it's heaven but it still on earth....so you still have the believrs who are in fact living on earth and have responsebilties....
you can't always use time in it's literal meaning in everything in church and ine the same time you can't fully ignore it.
Comments
I was always thaught that the liturgy started with the psalms of the 11th and 12th hour before the vesper praise all the way up to the 3rd and 6th hour before the Offertory, because all these prayers prepare us for the liturgy. That is my humble opinion though!
Another point of discussion is whether vesper praise is concidered a part of the vespers (I personally think it is), but if you disagree then I'd like to ask why! Why do we call it vesper praise then? Why is it prayed right before vespers?
-matt-
Sorry to burst your bubble but i still don't agree. No one has given me any evidence of me being wrong. Whereas my sources tell me I am right. My sources are A. Anba Gregorious B. An article I read (Still trying to find it) and C. A Epideacon in my church as well as other deacons who have gone to a theological school and have studied all of these things.
till u have the source, we still stand with the conclusion....
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79159#msg79159 date=1194388809]
the vespers praise though has is not PART of the liturgy. Vespers is. Vespers prepares for the liturgy while the vespers praises doesn't. It almost has nothing to do with the liturgy. It is more of a time of meditation and prayer. Vespers is Part of the liturgy. the very first part. If you study the parts of the liturgy you will find it to be Vespers then Matins, midnight praises are not part of the liturgy either. It is not something that is done as a preparation of the alter, but as a preparation of ourselves. Also lets say sunday was the 29th of the month, not a major feast, then why would vespers be joyous tune? My point is that Vespers MUST follow the rites according to the next day, because vespers isn't a prayer for today, it's for tomorrow. Just like the readings.
what are you saying ya habibi. vespers praises are part odf vespers and vespers is part of the liturgy. it's all connected togather. to prepare us or the church it doesn't matter....it's part of the whole process.
His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
IF A BISHOP AND MANY PRIESTS AND DEACONS (ACTUAL DEACONS) ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAN YOU ARE STUBBORN MY FRIEND. Hos Erof, you have the freedom to post whatever you would like. That is the whole point of our faith, finding the truth through asking questions. Where are your sources mina? I haven't seen any that make us wrong. If you do not have a source then what you are sayng is INVALID. I have sources, therefore What i say is valid. Also, who says we should not take the time literally. You need to understand that everything should be done according to what is written. If we did not take time literally than we can celebrate Good Friday a week early, maybe end lent 3 weeks early and extend the 50 days to about 150, thats cool right? Maybe we can cut some parts out of the liturgy and maybe make it a half hour. Thats convenient right? I'm glad you think so.
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132]
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79162#msg79162 date=1194391933]
His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
IF A BISHOP AND MANY PRIESTS AND DEACONS (ACTUAL DEACONS) ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAN YOU ARE STUBBORN MY FRIEND. Hos Erof, you have the freedom to post whatever you would like. That is the whole point of our faith, finding the truth through asking questions. Where are your sources mina? I haven't seen any that make us wrong. If you do not have a source then what you are sayng is INVALID. I have sources, therefore What i say is valid. Also, who says we should not take the time literally. You need to understand that everything should be done according to what is written. If we did not take time literally than we can celebrate Good Friday a week early, maybe end lent 3 weeks early and extend the 50 days to about 150, thats cool right? Maybe we can cut some parts out of the liturgy and maybe make it a half hour. Thats convenient right? I'm glad you think so.
first i haven't spoken to any BISHOPS, PRIESTS, OR "REAL" DEACON about this and we are STILL waiting for your source....u don't have it, u don't find it.....u have nothing.
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132]
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132]
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132]
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
you don't follow the literal Jewish day timing....we just take the tradition of that. our church is timeless. one way to show that is how the processions in the liturgy are done, including the ones on the altar before the pauline and the acts. they go counterclockwise, against time.....
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79162#msg79162 date=1194391933]
His Servant and Hos Erof, with all do respect, TILL that source is listed....please don't include ANY opinions.
IF A BISHOP AND MANY PRIESTS AND DEACONS (ACTUAL DEACONS) ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH THAN YOU ARE STUBBORN MY FRIEND. Hos Erof, you have the freedom to post whatever you would like. That is the whole point of our faith, finding the truth through asking questions.
I've attended many conferences with loads of bisschops, priests and actual ekleriki deacons, and we said "tenouwst" and nobody objected. It seems, just like I said, that this is something that is practised in 2 different ways. And like jydeacon said, if you don't have actual prove from an authoritive source (like anba mattaos, or the decisions of a recent holy synod council), then you only present an opinion, and not an actual rite. Time is not to be taken litteraly in the sense that we don't always go strictly by the time in which prayers should be prayed. An example is that we take all agpeya hours on lent days and pray them at 10 in the morning, while the 12th hour normally is prayed in the evening. Another example is that in common practise we pray the midnight praise in the evening and not early in the morning.
There is also no need for sarcasm, nobody said we should cut the liturgy to half an hour. Can we keep this discussion polite and decent. We are discussing a simple matter, no needs for shouting or name calling from anyone.
-matt-
Albair explains in his introduction to the Verses that Vespers is concidered a preparation of the Liturgy, but not a part of the liturgy (remember that we don't necessarely have to pray a Vespers before a liturgy, but we do have to pray Matins like I pointed out in a previous post). So the prayers of the Vespers follow the watos/adam tune of the actual day, in the case of saturday evening it is Watos.
Verses of the bells class
well, what is the deference between adam and vatos introduction?
in deferent way why there is adam and vatos introduction.
Hi all
well, what is the deference between adam and vatos introduction?
in deferent way why there is adam and vatos introduction.
Adam Introduction - Adam Days
Watos Introduction - Watos Days
[quote author=gergesezzat link=topic=5903.msg79216#msg79216 date=1194549815]
Hi all
well, what is the deference between adam and vatos introduction?
in deferent way why there is adam and vatos introduction.
Adam Introduction - Adam Days
Watos Introduction - Watos Days
Gerges,
There are different introductions for Adam and Watos days because Adam days are different than Watos days. Adam days are Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday while Watos days are Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. I am not absolutely sure why they are two different introductions, but to answer your first question, there really isn't any differences in the meaning of each introduction, but there are many differences in what kind of language it was used and how it was translated. For instance, Adam days introductions begin with [coptic]Amwini marenouwst[/coptic] which means "Let us worship", and Watos days introductions begin with [coptic]Tenouwst[/coptic] which means "We worship" (both of which are synonyms).
If you do not understand, just ask and I'll try to PM you.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79180#msg79180 date=1194415522]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132]
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
you don't follow the literal Jewish day timing....we just take the tradition of that. our church is timeless. one way to show that is how the processions in the liturgy are done, including the ones on the altar before the pauline and the acts. they go counterclockwise, against time.....
Mina,
You are incorrect about the Church being timeless, our Church isn't timeless, but the heavenly Church is. Also, in heaven and ONLY IN HEAVEN, there is no such thing as time. We are nothing but humans who live on this Earth where time is always running and the Church is not an exception. Also, if you believe that our Church is timeless, then explain to me for what reason did our Church create the hours of the Agpeya, as well as the Paschal hours.
P.S.: The Zeffe's go counterclockwise to represent against time. I agree with you, but when we are in procession, we are in a heavenly procession rather than an earthly procession. Our worship on Earth is earthly worship, even though this worship is in respect to God, and this is true because we do this worship on Earth rather than in Heaven, but the Zeffe is the representation of angels rejoicing at such a great work that happened that day from God (the ONLY exception: Judas's Betrayal, where we go clockwise to represent the angels in remorse and that time was winding down to the Lord's death).
I wonder how many quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes we can get on here. :D
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79224#msg79224 date=1194560075]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79187#msg79187 date=1194454884]
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79180#msg79180 date=1194415522]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79179#msg79179 date=1194410044]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79169#msg79169 date=1194397921]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5903.msg79133#msg79133 date=1194314511]
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79132#msg79132 date=1194309132]
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
BTW what's the purpose for the hours in Good Friday? Just remind me please.
do we actauly wait to 6:00 PM to pray the HOUR.....please answer me......what happend and ur church exactly...
Yes, we actually are supposed to wait until 6:00 PM to pray "the HOUR" because the Jewish day would typically start with the first hour (6:00 AM), then would continue with the third hour (9:00 AM), sixth hour (12:00 PM), ninth hour (3:00 PM), and, of course, Vespers, or as you may say "the HOUR" (6:00 PM). My source is a Church-published Good Friday paper about the times of days and their significance with common days.
you don't follow the literal Jewish day timing....we just take the tradition of that. our church is timeless. one way to show that is how the processions in the liturgy are done, including the ones on the altar before the pauline and the acts. they go counterclockwise, against time.....
Mina,
You are incorrect about the Church being timeless, our Church isn't timeless, but the heavenly Church is. Also, in heaven and ONLY IN HEAVEN, there is no such thing as time. We are nothing but humans who live on this Earth where time is always running and the Church is not an exception. Also, if you believe that our Church is timeless, then explain to me for what reason did our Church create the hours of the Agpeya, as well as the Paschal hours.
P.S.: The Zeffe's go counterclockwise to represent against time. I agree with you, but when we are in procession, we are in a heavenly procession rather than an earthly procession. Our worship on Earth is earthly worship, even though this worship is in respect to God, and this is true because we do this worship on Earth rather than in Heaven, but the Zeffe is the representation of angels rejoicing at such a great work that happened that day from God (the ONLY exception: Judas's Betrayal, where we go clockwise to represent the angels in remorse and that time was winding down to the Lord's death).
I have a question. Is God standing in heaven, glancing at his watch every other minute to see whether we pray at the right time? Certaintly not. God could not care less when you pray, the important thing is how you pray. I can pray prime at night if I want (told to me by my Father of Confession), what matters is my heart and not the time. We need to stop sitting by the shallow water and go into the depths, where we will find eternal life.
Christ4Life,
You're my hero! :D
I have a question. Is God standing in heaven, glancing at his watch every other minute to see whether we pray at the right time? Certaintly not. God could not care less when you pray, the important thing is how you pray. I can pray prime at night if I want (told to me by my Father of Confession), what matters is my heart and not the time. We need to stop sitting by the shallow water and go into the depths, where we will find eternal life.
thanks you for this.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=5903.msg79224#msg79224 date=1194560075]
Mina,
You are incorrect about the Church being timeless, our Church isn't timeless, but the heavenly Church is. Also, in heaven and ONLY IN HEAVEN, there is no such thing as time. We are nothing but humans who live on this Earth where time is always running and the Church is not an exception. Also, if you believe that our Church is timeless, then explain to me for what reason did our Church create the hours of the Agpeya, as well as the Paschal hours.
P.S.: The Zeffe's go counterclockwise to represent against time. I agree with you, but when we are in procession, we are in a heavenly procession rather than an earthly procession. Our worship on Earth is earthly worship, even though this worship is in respect to God, and this is true because we do this worship on Earth rather than in Heaven, but the Zeffe is the representation of angels rejoicing at such a great work that happened that day from God (the ONLY exception: Judas's Betrayal, where we go clockwise to represent the angels in remorse and that time was winding down to the Lord's death).
what was said before is a very nice spiritual point....even thooo it is, still, give me time to get my source of what i said.
but if u think about it.....can u deny that the church is in fact heaven on earth??!!!!!!
one thing i said wrong was that the church is timeless what i ment to say is that the church is above time because it is not of this world. i still stand to my example of the procession and on the believing that the church is the heaven on earth as witnessed for by many fathers.
Your procession example would work because it is far more than just a procession. There are many rituals said and done in those processions. Not just rituals, but hymns as well. I could keep talking about how much the Church puts in the processions that make them unique as well as important of how it is heavenly and not earthly, but I don't need to. You probably get the point. The Church could be heaven on earth, and could be above time, BUT explain to me why the Church goes faster when time is running out? If Church is "timeless" then the Church should always stay at a constant pace not worrying about when they end or begin.
Mina,
Your procession example would work because it is far more than just a procession. There are many rituals said and done in those processions. Not just rituals, but hymns as well. I could keep talking about how much the Church puts in the processions that make them unique as well as important of how it is heavenly and not earthly, but I don't need to. You probably get the point. The Church could be heaven on earth, and could be above time, BUT explain to me why the Church goes faster when time is running out? If Church is "timeless" then the Church should always stay at a constant pace not worrying about when they end or begin.
well like i said before, i wanted to say "above time as to "timeless".
but if oyu think about it. church is heaven on earth. it's heaven but it still on earth....so you still have the believrs who are in fact living on earth and have responsebilties....
you can't always use time in it's literal meaning in everything in church and ine the same time you can't fully ignore it.