Christmas Date in Coptic Church

Why the Coptic Church does not correct the Christmas Day to 25 December?

This question was asked many times to many bishops in our church and the answer was not convincing. They do confirm that the date is wrong and give an excuse that this is purely a mathematical error and simple people my think that the Coptic faith is wrong if we change the date.

Please my friends, do not be shocked about this fact. If you read the history below, you will understand the reality.

Until the year 1582, the Christmas was celebrated by the Coptic Orthodox Church on 25 December. Because the calendar year ( what we use as 365 days a year and one leap year every 4 years) is faster than the actual year ( the actual time for one rotation of the earth around the sun) by about 8 to 9 minutes, the calendar was faster by 10 days. In order to synchronise the situation, 10 days were deleted from the calendar and it was agreed that every 400 years, three days should be deleted from the calendar. Because the Coptic calendar did not follow this change, the Christmas day in Egypt was 4 January on the years from 1582 to 1699 and 5 January from 1700 to 1799 and 6 January from 1800 to 1899 and 7 January from 1900 to the year 2099. Then it will be 8 January from 2100 to 2199 and so on.

Can some one tell me why we are not doing it?
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Comments

  • i'll try to explain it but forgive me if u find any mistakes concerning English..... what u say would have been true if we follow the Gregorian Calendar but actually the coptic church uses the JUlian Calendar which depends ona a star called "Sirius" (it's the brightiest star at night). the year in this calendar is 365 days and 6 hours exactly. the world was using this calendar since 46 BC..so  the date of christmas was one all over the world (29 Kyahk=25 December)

    what happened is hte following: in 1582 during the time of pope Gregory 13 (1585-1587) they tought that the Julian calendar (365 daysand 6 hours) is one that depends on the Sun like the gregorian one ( 365 days 5 hours 48 minutes 36 seconds) so in order to  correct what  they thought is a mistake they calculated the difference between the 2 calendars ( 11 minutes and 14 seconds for each year) then they wanted to correct the calendar but not from 46 BC ( the beginning of using the Julian calendar around the world) they started correcting from 325 AD (the year the council of Nicea was held)

    to be contiued.............
  • so here is the math

    1582 (the year of correction) - 325 (the year the council of Nicea was held) = 1257 years

    1257 x 11 minutes 14 seconds  ( the differnce in one year)=10 days

    so people slept on 4 October 1582 and woke up the next day to find the calendar changed to 15 October.. this year the Western church celebrated christmas on 25 December and the Eastern church celebrated Christams 10 days later on 4 January which was in fact 29 Kyahk.

    since this date the difference is still there ( 11 minutes and 14 secondes per year) so every 128 years it completes one day.

    that's why we celebrate christmas on 7 January ( since 1966 and till 2094)   

    Please .. feel free to correct any of what i said or if anyone woud like to put it in a better way than i did (i know mine isn't so good) or provide a link that says it better than i did
  • Well done smile4ever,
    That is a very interesting, and concise explanation. Let me ask you though: who changed the calendar? Is it the Christians during Pope Gregory era? Or was it the government? I believe the government in Egypt at that time must have been an Islamic one; how can they go by what the church has said? Also, if it were so, Egypt would be in conflict with the whole world, with ten days discrepancy, as I believe not the whole world has slept, woken up next day on the 15th of October; or what? Please clear these points up for me.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • Good Point Ophedace,
    this is my theory (im not saying its fact) but lets not forget htat Muslims had their own calender too and logically upon invading Egypt the COC refused to follow it
    likewise the apperance of the Gregorian calender was recieved in the same way.

    Also to note, by us using our date of Jan. 7th as our Christmas we are right in our own percpective, the only time we are wrong is when we use a non-native calender i.e. the Gregorian Calender (but that unfortuantely is something that can't be avoided)
  • Dear gregorythesinner,
    I understand your points, and they seem to be very relevant. However, I can't yet grasp how the Coptic Orthodox Church received the Gregorian calender (or whether it was the Egyptians as a whole). Would someone explain if they know the answer.
    Thanks so much.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot
  • THis is very interesting topic. I will like to read more later on.

    God be with you all.  :)
  • Let me ask you though: who changed the calendar? Is it the Christians during Pope Gregory era? Or was it the government?

    frankly i don't know exactly but i think astronomers did.. as a matter of fact considering that we talk about the middle ages it doesn't matter if the pope or the governement changed the calendar , u know what i mean....

    I believe the government in Egypt at that time must have been an Islamic one; how can they go by what the church has said

    the islamic governments at that time used the Hijri calendar and had nothing to do with this and as copts we used the coptic calendar which is a Julian one....so they didn't go by what the church said....the Gregorian calendar which is used now officially (el takwim el meelady) was used in Egypt later on (can't pecise a date)...

    Also, if it were so, Egypt would be in conflict with the whole world, with ten days discrepancy,

      let me put it this way: the islamic states used the Hijri calendar (a calendar depending on the moon) so they had nothing to do at all with the changes in other calendars and it didn't affect them at all...
    the rest of the world used the Julian calendar (which dependson the Sirius) what happened is that at pope Gregory's era they tought that the Julian calendar is a one that depends on the Sun so they changed it which created the gregorian calendar..maybe that wasn't clear on my first post

    as I believe not the whole world has slept, woken up next day on the 15th of October; or what? Please clear these points up for me.

    no.. because of what i said earlier ..different calendars in different parts of the world so no problem....but yes everywhere in europe under the authority of the pope of Rome changed the calendar this way

    dear ophadece .. thank's for caring enough to cmment but i would like you to clarify the points you made .. i'm sorry if i failed to answer your questions (my fault)
  • Dear smile4ever,
    Thanks so much. Yes, you did answer my questions down to every detail. I really appreciate that so much. It is like one member said before "we learn something new every day on tasbeha.org".
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=5730.msg76581#msg76581 date=1189173416]
    Dear smile4ever,
    Thanks so much. Yes, you did answer my questions down to every detail. I really appreciate that so much. It is like one member said before "we learn something new every day on tasbeha.org".
    God bless you and pray for us a lot


    actually it was my pleasure to answer you .. i have learnt much my self by researching on this.... and yes we all learn from each other everyday on tasbeha.org...i now know why i love this forum  ;)
  • [quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76529#msg76529 date=1189068509]
    Why the Coptic Church does not correct the Christmas Day to 25 December?


    To summarise what has been said, the Coptic Church does celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December. However, it is 25th of December according to the traditional calendar of the Church, and not the calendar of Pope Gregory XIII.

    No correction needed.
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5730.msg76593#msg76593 date=1189205535]
    [quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76529#msg76529 date=1189068509]
    Why the Coptic Church does not correct the Christmas Day to 25 December?


    To summarise what has been said, the Coptic Church does celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December. However, it is 25th of December according to the traditional calendar of the Church, and not the calendar of Pope Gregory XIII.

    No correction needed.

    couldn't have said it better..thank's
  • Dear every one who is sharing in this topic. I am pleased to see that much interest in this topic which is really worrying me for years. Now all what we talked is the history of this topic. But now let us come to the practical part of it. I know that the coptic calendar follows the Julian. But let me assume a silly assumption. But in fact it may not be silly if we go by arithmatic calculation. If the coptic calendar does not adjust itself now, there will be a day in the very far future ( if man still alive on the earth) when the easter day and coptic Christmas will be celebreated at the same week or month or even easter will preceed Christmas. I know it is silly but this is the fact after ten thousands of years. So why do not we take the action now?
  • Further to my comment of 8/9/2007, I would like to add that the Christmas day after 12000 years will be in 7 April and may clash with the good Friday. Has any one though of it?  Many may say who will be there around that time but to the best of my knowledge, it is an obligation towards  the coming generations whether there will be a life on earth or not.
  • Dear john_paul_elia,
    Thanks for working our minds (which for me doesn't happen that often :-)). Yes, that is like food for thought, or a complex mathematical exerceise. I have never thought of it like that before to be honest, but, it is so interesting. How the church could get round this problem, I am nto really sure (just like a mathematical problem). Why don't other members give us their thoughts as well? Maybe we can come up with a solution ages "ahead" of this happening.
    I guess, from my point of view, both fasts will overlap with Great Lent taking superiority, and obviously the day we have the Glorified Feast of Nativity, will be a non-abstinence fasting day: but then I don't think we will resume the season with joyful ceremonial, just Lenten ceremonial (which would overshadow the Koiak ceremonial as well; to my arithmetic pity), and then Epiphany falls, and it is treated as a non-abstinence fasting day again.
    OH, good God: I think my proposal is becoming a farce. Honestly, I can't comprehend that happening. But maybe one of the Popes will just fix the day we celebrate Nativity in the future generations to preserve the rites and ceremonials that the church live through. Well, that seems to be a more pragmatic approach, isn't it?
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot
  • Dear Ophadece
    Thank you for understanding the real problem. You have even put me in a more serious thoughts about clashing of Christmas fasting and Lent. Now I am sure that you know the depth of the problem the future generations will face. We require the other members to give their thoughts. We as a church should not leave this problem to our future generations. We need to act now. Can the leaders of our church hear our voice
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Not to belittle the issue here, but I'm not sure I see this as being such an earth-shattering problem.  The odds of mankind living for another 12000 years are, in my opinion, as close to impossible and impossible get.  I believe that we may have another one to two thousand years in us max, and then we will inevitably destroy either the planet or each other.  That being said, I see no reason why our Church does not either a) fix the date of the feast of the Nativity to being January 7, or b) change the date we celebrate the Nativity to December 25.  In any event, the actual date the feast is celebrate is not important, since Christ was not born on either of those days.  I think I read somewhere that He was actually born some time in April, but that is neither here nor there.  What is important is the fact that we commemorate the Incarnation of the Word, for the sake of the salvation of our souls.  I also recall reading that the early Church did not celebrate the Nativity, but rather, annually celebrated the Pascha.  I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong), that formal celebration of the Nativity did not occur until centuries after the establishment of the Church.  Thus, the actual 'date' for the feast isn't really a major issue, so long as we never forget the meaning and purpose of the feast, viz. that 'the Word of God became man, so that we may learn from a Man, how man might become God' (Clement of Alexandria).
  • I agree with Ophadace, maybe a Patriach will find it fit to just secure the day so as to preserve the rites of the church of that season. But to be honest i have heard that nobody really knows when Christ's true birthday is and some say that he was really born in spring. I have no information to back this up but i thought it was kind of interesting.
  • [quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76859#msg76859 date=1189689516]
    Dear Ophadece
    Thank you for understanding the real problem. You have even put me in a more serious thoughts about clashing of Christmas fasting and Lent. Now I am sure that you know the depth of the problem the future generations will face. We require the other members to give their thoughts. We as a church should not leave this problem to our future generations. We need to act now. Can the leaders of our church hear our voice


    The Church has been in existance for 2000 years, and you're worried about something that will happen 12,000 years from now? It seems rather needless, no?

    I'd like you to consider the situation the calendar change has caused in the Eastern Orthodox Church, where a minority have adopted the Gregorian (Revised Julian) calendar for it's fixed dates. It was an absolutely moronic decision which has led to a whole host of unecessary divisions and conflicts, and I have yet to meet a priest (I'm sure they exist, but I've yet to meet one) in one of the New Calendar churches who thinks it was a good idea.

    Changing the date of Pascha is contrary to the Church canons. For this reason those EO churches who adopted the Gregorian calendar for fixed days, such as Christmas, continued to use the Julian calendar for Pascha and the movable dates. This means that the fast of the Apostles, which begins on a movable date but ends on a fixed day, is automatically shortened by two weeks. Since this fast occasionally lasts for no longer than two weeks, there are years in which it is altogether lost in the New Calendar churches.

    While one might not think the calendar to be much of an issue in itself, losing an entire fast (or at least reducing its length considerably) is certainly a serious issue.

    Basically there is no good reason to adopt the New Calendar (unless you're 12,000 years in the future), but many to stick to the traditional calendar of the Church.
  • Thanks Cevac, Jydeacon and Orthodox 11 for your contributions and your valuable thoughts.
    I agree with Cevac and jydeacon that both dates (25 Dec and 7 Jan) were not the actual date of Jesus birth day and also I agree that both Christmas and Easter were not celebrated in the early church for a couple of centuries or more. If some one wants a resource for this, please let me know.

    While Cevac is pessimistic about the future about the mankind that will destroy each other in 2000 years, and Orthodox 11 does not see a necessity for the change unless you are here for 12,000 years,  I can confirm to both  that even in this left over 2000 years ( i.e in the year 4000), the Christmas day will jump from 7 January to 22 January.

    The question is not how long the mankind will live or how long there will be a life on the earth, but it is why do not we do the right thing. Why do not we start uniting the church in the east and west starting with this small matter. Changing  the traditional calendar is not a crime. It is not a matter of faith or blasphemy. It is purely a matter of MATHIMATICS.

    I am still waiting for Ophadece valuable contribution??
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    I don't think I'm being pessimistic, just realistic, based on what is going on in the world today.  That being said, I don't think the date that the Feast of the Nativity is celebrated will be a source of any hindrance when it comes to reunification.  If one church wished to celebrate on December 25, another on January 7, and yet another on September 16, what would it matter?  As has been pointed out, the date is not important, it is the commemoration of our Lord's Incarnation that matters.  I think the biggest hindrance to any sort of reunification is ego.
  • [quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76920#msg76920 date=1189733068]
    Why do not we start uniting the church in the east and west starting with this small matter. Changing  the traditional calendar is not a crime. It is not a matter of faith or blasphemy.


    The Coptic Church does not need its own Meletios Metaksakis. We should all learn from the mistakes of this tragic father of division instead of repeating them by following in his footsteps.
  • Dear all,
    That topic is becoming more and more interesting. I heard that piece of information before that the actually date of Jesus' birth is in the spring (be it March, or April), but I really think that for the purpose of preserving the rites and ceremonials of the church, the length of all the fasts that we have, we should be acting on fixing a date. That is in agreement with what Cephas, and Orthodox11 said, that the date doesn't matter; it is the commemoration of the event. I think it is worth preserving the 7th of January (or whatever date is chosen in whichever generation this happens; which again I don't agree on waiting another 12000 years as Orthodox11 has said) and that should be proposed to the relevant body in the church. I don't know who may be in a position to do that, whether is it a patriarch, or the Synod, or whom? I just hope this happens to avoid any such conflicts and clashes in the future.
    This is merely my personal opinion.
    God bless you all and please mention us in your prayers
  • I do agree 100% with Orthodox11. I was only talking about our Coptic church, and I don't see churches in the East and West uniting again. Sorry for this dismal opinion, but again that is merely my personal opinion.
    God bless you all and mention us in your prayers
  • Well, certainly the change in calendar in the EO tradition has, as Orthodox11 says, brought much grief, and, as far as anyone can see, no real gains. If anyone can point to real problems with the current one then, of course, no doubt the Synod would consider it; but are there real ones?

    The maxim: 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' comes to mind.

    As to unity, it is red herring. If the Spirit wants it it will come; but dates won't make the crucial difference.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • I came accross these words of wisdom, which seem to apply well here:

    "Modernism does not reflect the spiritual freedom of Orthodoxy, but merely the cultural captivity of an ideology dependent on Western cultural prejudices." - Fr. Andrew Phillips
  • [quote author=Biboboy link=topic=5730.msg76927#msg76927 date=1189744185]
    Agape,

    Read this:

    http://www.copticheritage.org/PagEd+index-page_id-828.phtml


    I am happy to see this great reserach the link of which was referred by Bibiboy.
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5730.msg76941#msg76941 date=1189784429]
    [quote author=john_paul_elia link=topic=5730.msg76920#msg76920 date=1189733068]
    Why do not we start uniting the church in the east and west starting with this small matter. Changing  the traditional calendar is not a crime. It is not a matter of faith or blasphemy.


    The Coptic Church does not need its own Meletios Metaksakis. We should all learn from the mistakes of this tragic father of division instead of repeating them by following in his footsteps.


    Would you please Orthodox 11 let me know what do you mean by Meletios Metaksakis
    Thanks
  • The Russian EO Church celebrate Christmas on the 7th of January and they are in full union with the Greek Orthodox (who celebrate it on the 25th of December). So it is obvious that it wouldn't be an issue in unity.
  • All Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on December 25th. Of the six Greek Orthodox churches - Constantinople, Greece, Cyprus, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria - only Jerusalem is still (again) on the Julian Calendar where Dec 25 falls on civil date Jan 7 (at this point in time).
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