So Pope Tawadros went into a mosque yesterday. What is left now? A synagogue of the Jews, a Buddha temple of the Buddhists, a protestant gathering for the protestants, however many thousand sects there is, a Jehovah's witnesses gathering, and of course not forgetting a nightclub or a bar or both for the atheists.
What happened to principles? More importantly what happened to the teachings of the Bible? I personally didn't mind this when I was younger as my family didn't mind me going into a mosque after playing street football to wash up and drink water. Of course you can imagine the look on the face of my father of confession when I had mentioned it in passing! He didn't even utter a word or feel the need to, he just darted me with that look..
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I guess you know St Paul's teachings and commandments by other apostles too let alone the Old Testament. Please let me know if you want me to highlight to you what these are, I'd be happy to, but I am sure you don't need it..
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Hi @minatasgeel and all,
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter [emphasis mine] a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated." - Canon 65 of the Holy Apostles
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed." Canon 45 of the Holy Apostles
The fathers forbid entering the synagogue of the Jews. I would suspect this applies to all unbelievers, given the chronological emergence of Islam. It is clearly forbidden as is clear from a quick search as above. Nevertheless, someone will inevitably raise the question of economia.
So long as no prayer is offered (wherein he would be an idolater) it seems to me that the current political climate near-demands it ... Begging the question of the Patriarch's involvement in politics at all (welcome to Tasbeha.org; where this question is raised hourly.)
I won't comment my opinion. Not yet at least.
John Tavares is a Maple Leaf,
It quite seems like you did. Literally almost none of the verses you posted had anything to do with anything, maybe you should take your own advice and go read St Takla. To even apply them to this situation is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for any verses that just have some sort of word in common with the topic at hand. I deleted my other comment because it was unnecessary and rude, but this is really getting ridiculous. The amount of arrogance recently on these forums is just astounding. The amount of the supposedly "learned" and knowledgeable people on this site who have been criticizing almost anything and finding something wrong in literally everything the synod does is getting frustrating to see. Normally I'd just stop coming to this site and reading your nonsense but as this is probably the largest and most popular english coptic site, you're unfortunately the most accessible coptic opinions to outsiders. Good on you making them doubt the authority of its clergy from before they even come into the faith. Hopefully they can look past all this nonsense. If you're finding something wrong with pretty much everything the synod does then chances are theres something wrong with you. Like this really beyond ridiculous, grow up and wake up and show some respect. What a shame too, some of the posts are great but when it gets diluted with this crap its unbearable. You have an issue with what they're doing take it up with your bishop, its not rocket science. This didnt even start out as a discussion, your first post is a written condemnation of HH the patriarch, who do you think you are? So don't hide behind the excuse that this is just a discussion and back and forth of ideas, no, its just downright judgement and disrespect. Learn to speak properly and show some respect.
Thank you very much for your post. Please do search for the theme "شركة المؤمنين مع غير المؤمنين" on st-takla.org, which translates to "communion of the faithful with the unfaithful" and you will find many resources from which I extracted the verses above. Admittedly I have not searched in English and I certainly don't know how many books, or resources are already translated in English.
Concerning your second point, thank you for pointing out that I have problems. I actually know this, and as you exactly said my issues drove me to make the post in the first place. I will certainly be taking your advice more carefully from now on and think seriously about posting anything against the pope or the synod and if you find me having deviated again, by all means please let me know I did, even by a private message..
Please note that after Christ gave the commandment of loving God and the neighbour he warned his disciples against hypocrisy.. Let's be careful not to compromise on our principles and teachings in the name of loving our neighbours, leading to the demise of the Coptic church (something which has happened to other denominations)..
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I also understand there is disagreement and we can show principles where the church has nothing to do with politics, Islam, protestants and the like but the reality is the world is becoming a harder place, but there is no reason that we cannot still stick to our principles and let the Pope do what he must do. I know it sounds hypocritical, but that's the burdon the Pope has taken on but for us it's like don't try this at home.
There is something traditional about it as well when Muslim and Christian would live side by side in an integrated society, abeit the persecutions.
Islam has an internal struggle which our church could be hurt and if we feel more protected or safer by the majority of Islam , then why not take it if offered? We can still keep our integrity and not become corrupted or give over to anything because it is just fear at this stage with no evidence to the contrary that we are becoming corrupted in our faith. Meaning just because the Pope has visted a mosque doesn't mean the church has lost one bit of faith.
It's interesting Mina spoke about St Paul, because he went into all the places that were hostile to the faith and came out converting wherever he went.
God preserve our faith.
The Pope has taken on something that could come back to haunt us as politics is a competition which is winner/loser and in this case how law us interpreted within Islam. It was in danger with the Muslim brotherhood of being extreme and for now it is moderate. But what I'm saying is it may be a good thing that we have good relationship with the moderates as it does away with fears and that it is not good to still be isolated within the country.
"Please note that after Christ gave the commandment of loving God and the neighbour he warned his disciples against hypocrisy.. Let's be careful not to compromise on our principles and teachings in the name of loving our neighbours, leading to the demise of the Coptic church (something which has happened to other denominations).."
I am not sure what statement are you trying to make. Our Christian principles DO NOT include being isolated or asking for special treatment among the nations of the people. In fact, we are promised the opposite--to live as the minority, yet we are the chosen by God. But it is also our duty to not alienate others from Him whom we believe in, and His light to be spread on others, through love...love that doesn't require others to be FORCED to have the same faith as us to receive it. Now that's hypocrisy...because we want to be left alone, to practice what we want, while not allowing others to do so, indirectly.
"It's interesting Mina spoke about St Paul, because he went into all the places that were hostile to the faith and came out converting wherever he went."
Interesting in what sense?
You may have misunderstood my point. A lot of the time I log in to the website through the mobile and it is not easy to expand on my thoughts easily so I am sorry for that.. At no point ever have I or do I intimate isolation. I don't think anyone would be confused as to what the role of a Christian is. Exactly as you said to live as a minority, content with being persecuted from whatever outward forces there are, be it spiritual, political, or corporeal. You are right through love, we love the people, emit light and thereby preach the way of our Lord. That never means to compromise and undermine our status in the name of political correctness. What would have happened if God was politically correct? He faced pilate telling him that he never had any authority! We all know how He faced up to the chief priests! We all know how St Paul reacted to the hypocrite Jews. You see Mina, you know me quite well and part of me thanks God that I have not spoken about Anton Ayad and his multi-faith exhibits, or broadcasting the muslim prayers on Christian channels, or preparing "mawayed rahman" in the cathedral, or of course applauding political figures inside the church and uttering descriptions that are best not to be mentioned.. Anyway, we should know that He redeemed us with a very dear price and we should live above the realms of this world.. Finally if I were pope ophadece I would have done hundred times worse, and no I am not being humble.. I have another reason..
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You made a great comment when you brought him up Mina and I said interesting because I wanted that avenue explored more.
I don't like the protestant (especially American protestant) way of evangelizing.
The Americans are driven by markets and the Christianity seems like they are trying to sell something. Not only that but their drifting away from the chruch fathers interpretation inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Has the Pope made a wrong decision? I think I can understand what he did in accepting an invitation to the mosque. It is not a light decision and I'm sure he would understand the consequences of his decisions, but I don't see it as a precedence for us. I have even gone into a mosque to ask if we could play their soccer team as I was the coach of ours and I would always see them playing in the park opposite the mosque.