Assorted Questions

1) Why do we say Panou] instead of Psalm 150 on Bright Saturday?

2) Why is Tenen a Kiahk hymn but still present in many presentations?

3) Are we supposed to say all the interpretations for Kiahk Vesper's praise? Ie, do we have to say the Roman, then Bohairic, then Moakap. then all the rest?

4) Why does Kiahk have so many special things compared to other fasts, like Lent? The tasbeha is MUCH longer (and a bit more complicated), the month has its own chanted psalm tune (Cwtem taseri), etc.

5) Why does the Nativity fast start before Kiahk does?


  • i am no expert, but i'll try no. 5:
    the aims of fasting and of singing church hymns are slightly different.
    we fast in order to discipline our bodies and obtain help from God to overcome the sin that tries to attack us.
    we sing in order to learn more about God's amazing grace and to celebrate His glory.

    this addresses no. 4 a bit: in kiahk, we learn very much about the incarnation of God.
    just attending vespers (evening prayers) and tasbeha (night praises) and listening to the words gives us a deeper understanding - much more than by just reading about it.
    i have studied educational theory (as relevant to my field of work) and it is clear that reading something (or watching an online video) is a fairly inefficient method of learning.
    learning by experience teaches us so much more.
    the church fathers knew this, and so wrote the kiahk hymns so that we can enter God's presence with praise while learning about Him by both words and experience.

    when we understand why and how God became man and brought us into His presence, we can easily understand afterwards how the Son of God died and resurrected.
    so we start by fasting for nativity in preparation to learn about the incarnation.
    then, when we have experienced the beautiful kiahk hymns and journeyed through the church calendar via nativity and theophany (baptism), we are ready (after a short break from fasting to take care of our bodies) to come before God in deep repentance and fasting through the season of the great fast (lent).

    so the hymns of the great fast are a little simpler and more repetative, as were are focusing there on repentance and calling for mercy, more than on instruction and understanding.
    this is just my understanding of it, i may be wrong, as i didn't learn this in words, but this is what i have picked up through experience (of 9 years).
    so please feel free to correct me!

    i have a question of my own, so i'll write it separately as this is already very long!
  • my question:
    does anyone have a link to the arabic lyrics of
    اننا فدينا  تعل 
    (inna fadeyna ta'ala)
    i tried, but did not find it, maybe i am spelling it wrong.

    the english lyrics have 'because of His amazing love' in the chorus, but i would like to see the original arabic.
    we sang it in church today during Holy Communion and it is really beautiful.
    we didn't have the screen in use today, as many people were away in the cathedral celebrating our new diocese and (old) bishop. (so i haven't seen the words)
    axios anba angaelos!
  • Dear @Daniel_Kyrillos,
    1. Psalm 150 conveys joy as per the verse next to last. It therefore cannot be chanted during baskha (contrary to new flawed teaching which I heard had been changed again) or apocalypse night. Ⲡⲁⲛⲟⲩϯ reminds us of the death of Christ, as it is the introduction He used on the Cross. It is a selection of sad sounding verses from different psalms prophesying His death and salvation.
    2. Because people are driven by what they like, not the teachings of the forefathers.
    3. No.. But they have been handed down because the Coptic Orthodox Church used to not care about time whilst praying, but not anymore. However they are not compulsory.. Indeed, nothing is, OR IS THERE?
    4. Kiahk is called the "Marian" (of Virgin Mary) month and we hold Virgin Mary in our church highly so we elongate for the whole month. However this should be the case for all revered saints all year round but without changing the tune because Virgin Mary is more special.
    5. Because the fast is not related to the month. The premise of the fast is to receive the new Adam, and the new Testament, through the birth of Jesus Christ. 40 days like Moses on the mountain and 3 days for the transfer of Muqattam mountain. This year it is 44 days as you know!
    Dear @mabsoota
    Yes you misspelled it. It is إن فادينا دعانا.. Now search it this way. BUT it is not appropriate to sing carols during Communion but everyone does it..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ
  • @ophadece @mabsoota thank you guys so much! God bless you
  • hi, ophadece,

    thanks for the right words; it is the saviour 'called us', not 'came to us', i am a bit deaf!

    as far as i know english (>40 yrs speaking it), the word 'carol' is only used at Christmas.

    do you have the English translation of the list of 'acceptable' communion hymns?

    i haven't got round to buying that arabic book you see on the american website with them in (I think it is called the 'madeha' or something like that).

    i am still struggling with 'al khidmat is shamas' (the deacon's service book), and have found that although it is very long, it does not answer all my questions! i want to learn the vocabulary in there before i get any more arabic books - at this rate it will take me another 10 years or so! 

    (i have decided that the hymnology of the church is deliberately complicated so that all the old deacons will never run out of things to learn no matter how long they live! it stops them getting bored...)


  • Dear @Daniel_Kyrillos
    That's nothing to mention at all, and please keep me and my wife in your prayers always..
    Dear @mabsoota
    I should have said "Christian songs" rather than carols. The book you are talking about containing madayeh (melodies) but I am not sure if it is translated into English! I know that this would come as a shock to you but the original strictly correct teaching is not to sing melodies either. However I do not know what should be said after beweik on Sunday or after kezmarwout on weekdays. Of course the teaching of saying hymns of the glorification is an innovation and incorrect. I won't be surprised if we used to have a distinct hymn for each day of the year in annual days that somehow got lost altogether..
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • @ophadece and @mabsoota
    The Southern Diocese has released many books: kholagis, annual and Kiahk psalmodies, and the 2 you might be interested in: a book titled "The Service of the Deacon" and an index of communion melodies throughout the year. I own the former of these, and will look anything up for you if you'd like. However, the melodies book is  unavailable to me. It may be online.
    You can download Coptic Reader and buy "Melodies" and it should give you all that you need.
  • thanks, can u tell me how 2 get a paper copy of 'melodies'? maybe i could ask church shop 2 order it.

  • Hi @mabsoota
    You won't find "enna fadeena da3ana" in the melodies book. In Arabic it's a book called "al dorrah al orthodoxeya" but I am not sure if it is translated into English in a paper format. It contains melodies like Christ has granted us salvation, and Our Father Who Art In Heaven, and so on.. The Christian songs you are likely to find them in the small green book in many churches in the UK, and they are again in Arabic! I don't know of any English translation.. Sorry
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • i am happy to find them in arabic also

    on another note, some people from my church are producing some coptic songs in english.
    i haven't seen the translations, but i hear they sound good (as you know it is difficult to match the language to the tunes accurately without killing the language!)

    i'll keep you posted when they come out, and maybe they will do a production of 'our Father in the heavens' in modern english - i keep hoping and praying to see that!
  • I cannot agree more with you.. re-singing tunes in a different language, not only kills the language but also renders the tunes meaningless. For some ILL-EDUCATED reason (I mean the pioneers of this move were ill-educated) translation of hymns into MAINLY Arabic didn't pay attention to such a fact, and consequently singing English, French, Italian, etc. Although I heard that Stevenage church do not follow the flawed Arabic manner of singing, but perhaps one or two tunes, and not all. There are many examples, and I am sure you are aware of some at least... 
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • i think some of our friends from stevenage may be involved with this production, but am not sure.
    i will keep you posted.
    i was there just over a week ago when our lovely bishop anba angaelos became the bishop of the new diocese.

    i have never seen so many bishops in my life! it was like Christmas and the resurrection feast came together!
  • Haha.. Please keep me posted if you can..
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • @mabsoota about getting a hold of "Melodies", I've only seen copies sold from the convent in Georgia.. perhaps they're sold online. Or, download Coptic Reader and buy the book from there (where it's cheaper and smaller ;))
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