ok so i have a question about this... Is God not going to accept my praise because you may think its, "protestant"? Is God really gnna be tht determined for the type of music he hears coming from you.. or is he gnna care about the heart that you are lifting to him? This music has NOTHING wrong with it! I personally really like lacrae.... the lyrics in his songs are much more powerful then many of the songs in our church. Im not saying tht the songs in our church are bad or boring... bit as Christrose said b4.... they are depressing! The fruit of the spirit is Joy not Depression! If the song is gnna give me the joy of the spirit... and its gnna make me lift up my heart to god im gnna listen to it! Another thing i wanted to say is a story... it may not have to do with songs... but the moral is the same There was once a new convert to the church, whom was at first a dancer. After converting he went into monasticism. When he was a monk, he always go to the other monks and ask them for a word, or ask them a bunch of questions about the church, God, etc. This got the monks annoyed, so they decided to kick him out... but b4 telling him, they let him lead the prayer for tht day, and they all hid and watched him. When he got to church for the prayer, he didn't see anyone, so he decided to start the prayer on his own. And he didnt know what to say or how to pray, and he didn't know too many hymns, so he began to dance... for God. He was doing all the dance moves he did b4 monasticism... except this time it was for God... and to praise God. The monks so this and hey were all about to jump out at him and throw him out of the monastery... but right as they went to do that... they saw the hand of Jesus from the icon wiping the sweat off his head from the dancing!!!!!! Moral of the story... God accepts all types of praise as long as it comes from the heart... We s humans have no right to judge what God accepts or not... only God can pray for me
Another point, When David danced in front of the ark of covenant, his wife, looked a him and made fun of him, cuz she felt the same way, this is not how we should praise God. Because of that, God immediately punished her, and closed her womb! Dont fall into the same sin as Davis wife!
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12544.msg147371#msg147371 date=1321033085] Is God not going to accept my praise because you may think its, "protestant"? Is God really gnna be tht determined for the type of music he hears coming from you.. or is he gnna care about the heart that you are lifting to him?
The music we think is protestant? It is protestant. God is not an anything goes God. There are rules. There are certain methods of praise that are acceptable to him, and others which are not. Cain's offering was not acceptable because they were not according to the specifications of God. When praising God, it is important to do it His way. Also don't forget that the soul is not independent of the body, and the bodily senses effect the prayer you offer. Not all prayers are accepted before God. There is a correct and an incorrect way to praise. CCM is emotionally uplifting but spiritually hindering. So Yes, God indeed does care about how you praise Him. Although the heart is of tantamount importance, the senses are of definite importance.
When St. Augustine entered the church he said, "How much I wept at your Hymns and Canticles, deeply moved by the voices of your sweetly singing Church!" Then he turned to God and said, "Yet when it happens to me to be more moved by the singing than by what is sung, I confess myself to have sinned criminally, and then I would rather not have heard the singing."
For more about hymnology, read this. Read section 4 specifically. It also answers your question about David.
As for your story, I have heard it many times. How do I know that it is real, and not some story someone decided to make up to prove a point? Where is the source. Who wrote it, and are they dependable? If so, then I will consider it. I am not saying that it is not true, I just have no reason to accept it as so. Secondly, as you said, we cannot judge how God sees our prayers. You are very correct in saying that. But since we cannot take the judgement, it makes sense to follow in the ways of our fathers. Our goal is salvation and unity with Christ so we should follow the words of Solomon the wise in Song of Songs, "If you do not know, most beautiful of women, follow the tracks of the sheep and graze your young goats by the tents of the shepherds." (Songs 1:8 ) So since we cannot deciede, it makes sense that we should take the high road, and follow the method of our fathers which have brought them to the kingdom of God.
ok so lets say that ehat ur saying about david is correct (though its not) (and byw David, unlike the others, was not materialistic. Yes he fell into sin, but hes still human. Saying there excuse was because they were Materialistic does not apply w. david. Ad IF God did not agree with that type of praise, he just allowed it cuz they were materialistic, he would have never given his wife such a cruel punishment for judging him!) And how come God accepted the praise of the monk though it was in the new testemant!... your link is also written by naive people, that think that God accepts only the praisw ehich us people THINK is the only type of praise! Also,God did not accept cain offering because he did not give God his best. The rule was give God your best, but cain didnt do that, so in a way he was saying to God you dont deserve it. Show me one Bible verse tht says that we cannot praise gos with christian rock or rap! Praise the LORD! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty firmament! Praise Him for His mighty acts; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness! Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals! Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD! (Psalm 150:1-6 NKJ)
This psalm sows us that we should praise God with all instruments and singing...... It no where says, "Dont praise God as the protestants do!" You are judging for God, how about you step aside and let god do the judging for himself ok?
Ad IF God did not agree with that type of praise, he just allowed it cuz they were materialistic, he would have never given his wife such a cruel punishment for judging him!)
She judged God's anointed King. Why do you dismiss the whole article as wrong/ what are your sources? What are you denying?
Also,God did not accept cain offering because he did not give God his best. The rule was give God your best, but cain didnt do that, so in a way he was saying to God you dont deserve it.
Was that the only rule? what about the rule of it having to be a blood offering? Don't assume that the only rule is give god your best. There are other criteria.
This psalm sows us that we should praise God with all instruments and singing...... It no where says, "Dont praise God as the protestants do!" You are judging for God, how about you step aside and let god do the judging for himself ok?
Among the most foolish of arguments found on this site, I have trouble finding greater than this. Nobody said don't use instruments. Did David use his harp like an electric guitar? No. how about we let God judge? I am not judging for god. I did not formulate any of my own ideas. I speak from scripture, and from fathers. How else are we supposed to know right from wrong unless we use our minds to discern. You feel uncomfortable because what you like is being challenged as incorrect so you resort to the most juvenile of comments, "Don't judge." I did not condemn anyone. I only speak what is right versus what is wrong. Unless you mean to tell me that is wrong too. Dont be foolish. The bible doesn't need to say something about Christian rock or rap. Its speaks about the spirit of praise, and if you used your mind to discern and try to understand it (rather then just dismissing it as wrong like you did with the article), then maybe you would connect the dots. It seems to me that you beleiev connecting the dots is judging.
In any case, there is a final judgement. God will judge the right from the wrong. You have been warned. If you want to go on pretending like there is nothing wrong, no one will hold you back. You seem to take comfort in saying, "Let god do the judging for himself." That should not give you comfort. If he judges against you, there is no comfort.
If you have any real responses I would love to hear them. To go around saying that my article is written by naive people is itself judging, and is an outright display of you inability to take the other side of an argument honestly. If you give me reason to acknowledge what you say, (fathers speaking about the use of music, biblical commentaries or any well constructed article) then I will consider it. You mentioned the story of that monk again... what is your source?
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12544.msg147371#msg147371 date=1321033085] There was once a new convert to the church, whom was at first a dancer. After converting he went into monasticism. When he was a monk, he always go to the other monks and ask them for a word, or ask them a bunch of questions about the church, God, etc. This got the monks annoyed, so they decided to kick him out... but b4 telling him, they let him lead the prayer for tht day, and they all hid and watched him. When he got to church for the prayer, he didn't see anyone, so he decided to start the prayer on his own. And he didnt know what to say or how to pray, and he didn't know too many hymns, so he began to dance... for God. He was doing all the dance moves he did b4 monasticism... except this time it was for God... and to praise God. The monks so this and hey were all about to jump out at him and throw him out of the monastery... but right as they went to do that... they saw the hand of Jesus from the icon wiping the sweat off his head from the dancing!!!!!! Moral of the story... God accepts all types of praise as long as it comes from the heart... We s humans have no right to judge what God accepts or not... only God can pray for me
OMG LOL I heard this same story but it was with a clown juggling and it was St. Mary who appeared to wipe the sweat!
What about the modern songs that elaborate on a particular verse in the Bible? Like "Blessed be your name", quoting from Job, or the song "Better is one day", quoting from the Psalms. Lyrics excerpt:
"How lovely is Your dwelling place, Oh Lord Almighty My soul longs and even faints for You For here my heart is satisfied, within Your presence I sing beneath the shadow of Your wings
Better is one day in Your courts Better is one day in Your house Better is one day in Your courts Than thousands elsewhere"
Most of the above verses are taken directly from Psalm 84.
For the Passion Retreat on the East Coast (attended by many priests and bishops), I heard they do sing modern English songs like this, after they have been approved.
That is a cute story but where does it lead us? To accept anything because it may be from the heart? It seems like a made up story to make a point that "anything goes."
In any case, we DO know how to pray. We don't have to resort to dancing or singing silly songs. Like H.G. BY pointed to in the article, what needs to be examined is more than the lyrics. If all we did was examine lyrics then we might as well sing Abdel Halim during youth meetings!
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12544.msg147371#msg147371 date=1321033085] I personally really like lacrae.... the lyrics in his songs are much more powerful then many of the songs in our church. Im not saying tht the songs in our church are bad or boring... bit as Christrose said b4.... they are depressing! The fruit of the spirit is Joy not Depression! If the song is gnna give me the joy of the spirit... and its gnna make me lift up my heart to god im gnna listen to it!
This has to be the most telling part of your immature post. You think that these songs are more powerful than the hymns of the church! They bring you joy?! The church hymns depress you?!
As I always tell people who bring up these ridiculous arguments: As a child you want baby food, when you grow up you may can handle some real substance. These songs are for babies that lack depth and want a quick "high" or an easy "buzz." But there is no nutritional value. You don't gain anything. Your spirit remains weak and the body masters it. The hymns of the church speak to the spirit and build a person up. There are so many reasons for the hymns of the church being as they are -- I won't begin to get into it for the sake of brevity.
Rest assured, the hymns of the church are as they are purposefully. Nothing is haphazard. It is for the benefit of its people and to bring us to salvation. This is the same reason the church does not allow PROTEST-ant songs in the church - for the sake of the people. If you cannot trust this, you have no faith in the wisdom of the church. If you do not obey and trust in the wisdom of the church, (I'll let you fill in this blank). . .
Yes, I know it is. But it is misleading in that the dancer didn't know how to pray so he danced. We DO know how to pray the correct and Orthodox way so we cannot say don't judge because it is from the heart. If one DOES NOT know the correct way to pray, of course, I will suspend judgment. But when one is in the Orthodox church and has been taught how to worship, yet turns around and disregards everything the church has told him or her, I will judge.
Andrew! Lol if you want to effectively change avvakaras' mind, show him / her how beautiful and rich our church's hymns are. I'm 99.99% sure it will only polarize the issue even more by calling Protestant songs immature and for babies, lol.
I want all you guys to know smething. You guys keep thinking that Alan is going to make everyone love church and god and you keep assuming that people who like these songs don't know Alhan. Avvakaras probably knows more Alhan than all of you but it's not his love for Alhan that's gonna get him to heaven but how much he loves god. I'm sorry but you guys assumed that I don't know or Love Alhan either and thats completely absurd. Alhan is beautiful but just because someone likes these songs doesn't mean he is an ignorant fool.
And Andrew I'm sorry but your wrong. Orthodox means the right way. The right way to you is not the same to god. And you need to stop making god go by your standards because god is higher than your standards of what is right and what is wrong or what is orthodox and non orthodox. You guys need to look at things from gods side not from the church. Because. Beautiful as our church is we have had a lot of influence that has come from so many places that dont even match our faith. You guys need to open up to accepting other ways of doing things. Our Coptic way is not the only way.
I loveeee alhan, i loveeee taraneim, and i loveeeee christian rap/rock too! We dont have to be stuck in one thing, God isnt there in heaven refusing praise from people cuz the song is "protestantie" God accepts all praise... Gods judgment is not how we judge... he doesnt go with the same standards as we do... unlike humans God is more open to all types of praise! God is not stiffnecked as the jews were, whom thought that you could only worship God in one way! When the samaratan women (excuse my spelling) asked christ " Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.'"
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12544.msg147384#msg147384 date=1321043735] I want all you guys to know smething. You guys keep thinking that Alan is going to make everyone love church and god and you keep assuming that people who like these songs don't know Alhan. Avvakaras probably knows more Alhan than all of you but it's not his love for Alhan that's gonna get him to heaven but how much he loves god. I'm sorry but you guys assumed that I don't know or Love Alhan either and thats completely absurd. Alhan is beautiful but just because someone likes these songs doesn't mean he is an ignorant fool.
Knowledge of alhan does not equal love of the alhan or even understanding of them. I never said you can't like these songs, but to like them more than our hymns and say they are better demonstrates to me that you never understood alhan to begin with.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12544.msg147385#msg147385 date=1321043930] And Andrew I'm sorry but your wrong. Orthodox means the right way. The right way to you is not the same to god. And you need to stop making god go by your standards because god is higher than your standards of what is right and what is wrong or what is orthodox and non orthodox. You guys need to look at things from gods side not from the church. Because. Beautiful as our church is we have had a lot of influence that has come from so many places that dont even match our faith. You guys need to open up to accepting other ways of doing things. Our Coptic way is not the only way. (emphasis mine)
I was always under the impression that they were the same thing. You know the whole a house divided against itself cannot stand business made me think the church was following our Lord. Maybe the whole bride and bridegroom analogy was a joke too. What about the church being the body of Christ and He is the head. . . just figurative language?
Andrew, Day by day, I am becoming more drawn to your answers. I am 100% with everything you said. That dancer (or juggler) didn't know how to pray and so St. Mary (or Jesus) was pleased with his offering. Again, I still have no reason to accept the story as true. I believe that you made a reference to that by saying that it may be a made up story to exhibit the everything goes ideology. I do not believe the story.
Servant33, You make a good point. However, christian lyrics are nothing if they are supported by unchristian music. I used to be in love with CCM. I memorized Casting Crowns, Mercy Me, Hillsong united, and all of the other ones. most of them have good lyrics. Straight out of the bible. The idea i about the music. If you refer to my earlier post which contained H.G. Bishop Youssef's point, you will understand more fully that what we are talking about is beyond the lyrics. I agree with you that the best way is to show him the beauty of the hymns, but the problem is that CCM is too drawing to be overridden by ancient hymnology. unless one first realizes the futility of CCM, ancient hymnology will remain dull, boring, and CCM will remain more interesting.
TITL, Do not judge is always a premise which we as Christians must live by, but at what point are we being passive to spreading the truth? Did St. Athanasius sin in telling Arius that his heresy was unacceptable before God? We make nothing out of our own understanding, we simply re-iterate what the bible states. There is characteristics of an accepted praise, and those of the unaccepted. We do not condemn people who listen to CCM to hell. But that does not stop us from saying what is right vs. what is wrong. CCM is wrong. No body can change that.
Christ-Rose, Whether you know alhan is not the point. In fact, for your sake, I hope it is that you don't know alhan. It is like Andrew said, it is worse if you know how to praise, but you return to unacceptable things. It is of little concern whether or not he knows more alhan than us, or less. The truth is, the view that CCM is accaptable is faulty. It is faulty in the mouth of Ibrahim Ayad as much as it is faulty in the eyes of Casting Crowns. If you like CCM, then you are lying to yourself, and feeding yourself ice. Just because ice is solid, and can be ingested, it does not mean it is food. Just because this music has christian lyrics, it does not make it christian music. Also, here is another one of the messages that you may find in these protestant songs, which has crept into your mind: You say that it is not the love of alhan that leads to heaven but the love of god. how then will you show your love for God? When you love someone, you how them by doing what they want. If God doesn't want CCM music but you insist on "praising" him by that, it is the same as me loving a girl, and instead of proposing to her with a ring, I by her a monster truck. That is the way I show my love. In the end, it is not only about loving God. It is also about the way you show your love. What are the characteristics of God as revealed to us in Jesus? Meek, humble, quiet, shall not have his voice heard in the streets. All of these conflict with the methods of CCM. That is the biblical view, not the church's view.
AvvaKaras, God's judgement is clear in the bible. How do you know god is more open to all types. That is not how he is portrayed in the bible! Stop making that up! you forgot to highlight an important part in that quote: Being, "SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS." Christ asserted that there is one root to salvation!
And dornt call anyone immature you guys make these threads into arguments by the way you talk. I don't liked the way you made these threads into attacking each other without the spirit of love. I want to let you know that both I and ava Karas love the church very much and it's hymns and just to reassure you I have won the hymn competition for the east coast of the united states 4 years straight do before you tell me I don't know or love Alhan double check that. But you also have to see that we are not fighting against songs or words were fighting against people's heads. You guys have ur opinion and nothing we say is going to change that. And I was just like that but god showed me that he isn't like that. HE DOESN'T CARE IF I SING ALHAN OR IF I SAY GOD I LOVE YOU. HE DOENST CARE IF I SAY OOOO AAA ALL DAY HE CARES ABOUT WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY THAT OOOO AAAA. wake up guys. The amount of Alhan u listen to isn't getting yo into heaven. And on a different note, gods sacrifice on the cross was for all people.other people than just Coptic people are going to heaven and they don't know Alhan or orthodox rites or anything. And if you judge and say others aren't going that u yourself aren't going. And if others are getting there that means THAT THEIR WAYS ARE JUST AS ACCEPTED BY GOD AS OURS. So enough with this stupidity of their songs are wrong. If they don't have words that are theologically incorrect it's not an issue and if it's not a song that wants you to get up and dance with a ra2asa then praise god with it. Stop with this thing of just our way it's so ignorant
You gs are unbelievable. I wouldn't sit there and learn Alhan if I didn't use it to praise god and understand its meaning. And no Andrew unfortunately many things in our church are very messed up and I can prove it to you. And unfortunately not everything our church does fits Christs description. If you guys are willing to have a conversation with undstanding that's fine but I am not going to continue a conversation with people who don't ant to listen. You're not lying to yourself listen to casting crowns or tenth avenue north. You guys obviously don't know anything but u were fed when u were kids of just this orthodox this orthodox that. If you guys can't get the big picture instead of picking on details I can't sit here and have a conversation
Did you read my post? We were fed with Orthodox this and that? I fully said I memorized Casting crowns and the like. If you read my post yo would have noticed that.
For those who want to know the truth, there has been sufficient evidence here to guide you. For those who don't want the truth, God will give it to you anyway. I am not going to respond to this thread again. We get nowhere. Whatever has been said can only be repeated, and when repeated it is met with opposition on acount of judging and the like.
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12544.msg147386#msg147386 date=1321044209] I loveeee alhan, i loveeee taraneim, and i loveeeee christian rap/rock too! We dont have to be stuck in one thing, God isnt there in heaven refusing praise from people cuz the song is "protestantie" God accepts all praise... Gods judgment is not how we judge... he doesnt go with the same standards as we do... unlike humans God is more open to all types of praise! God is not stiffnecked as the jews were, whom thought that you could only worship God in one way! When the samaratan women (excuse my spelling) asked christ " Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.'"
No one said don't like taraneem or "Christian" rock. . .just don't fool yourself and call it praising God. I love how you keep telling us not to speak for God and not to judge yet you do that in almost every line. How do you know God is not refusing these types of worship? If anything was acceptable the church would have allowed anything in the church. Don't be so easily deceived by your flesh.
Let me push you to your limit, since you say God accepts all praise.
I have grown up in a village where the greatest way to bestow honor to someone is to perform sexual acts in front of them. This is how I praise their greatness. I know no better, I have done this my whole life. One day I am converted to Christianity. I join a monastery and then I go to before the altar to do these sexual acts to praise God. You see what I am about to do. . .will you stand idly by? Will you think to yourself: Who am I to judge? God will accept this worship.
I hope that got your intuition going. Some things are objectively wrong. There are wrong ways to worship God. One of which is so obvious and apparent (as the example above shows) but most are subtle. However, they are wrong nonetheless. When we worship God is it with fear and trembling. We address Him as Master and Lord while having comfort in the fact that He is our Father.
These songs are just that: Songs.Songs that please you and lead you to falsely believe that you are worshiping God. There is no depth in the music - just a catchy beat thrown to some verses of the Bible.
Hymns and taraneem are a means to the End. The point is some means are much better than others! With protestant hymns you only get one image of God and it is incomplete. The Orthodox hymnology teaches us about our God in fullness and truth.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12544.msg147389#msg147389 date=1321044511] And dornt call anyone immature you guys make these threads into arguments by the way you talk. I don't liked the way you made these threads into attacking each other without the spirit of love. I want to let you know that both I and ava Karas love the church very much and it's hymns and just to reassure you I have won the hymn competition for the east coast of the united states 4 years straight do before you tell me I don't know or love Alhan double check that. But you also have to see that we are not fighting against songs or words were fighting against people's heads. You guys have ur opinion and nothing we say is going to change that. And I was just like that but god showed me that he isn't like that. HE DOESN'T CARE IF I SING ALHAN OR IF I SAY GOD I LOVE YOU. HE DOENST CARE IF I SAY OOOO AAA ALL DAY HE CARES ABOUT WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY THAT OOOO AAAA. wake up guys. The amount of Alhan u listen to isn't getting yo into heaven. And on a different note, gods sacrifice on the cross was for all people.other people than just Coptic people are going to heaven and they don't know Alhan or orthodox rites or anything. And if you judge and say others aren't going that u yourself aren't going. And if others are getting there that means THAT THEIR WAYS ARE JUST AS ACCEPTED BY GOD AS OURS. So enough with this stupidity of their songs are wrong. If they don't have words that are theologically incorrect it's not an issue and if it's not a song that wants you to get up and dance with a ra2asa then praise god with it. Stop with this thing of just our way it's so ignorant
I can tell by this post that you have never really experienced the depth of the hymns the Church offers. You love them in the same way that you love protestant songs: They are just another form of music that has a cool rhythm. You reduce the hymns to "OOOO AAAA."
Well now that that's resolved : Apology time! Dear everyone I'm sorry for the fighting and name calling. Please let us all be sisters and brothers under Christ and may God guide us to know how to praise in the way that best pleases Him.
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=12544.msg147399#msg147399 date=1321050681] Well now that that's resolved : Apology time! Dear everyone I'm sorry for the fighting and name calling. Please let us all be sisters and brothers under Christ and may God guide us to know how to praise in the way that best pleases Him.
I really admire how you always come in to bring peace to seemingly heated debates.
[quote=Matthew 5:9]Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
However, I have no hard feelings towards people who are passionate about "Christian" rock and think it is worship music. I'm concerned about them more than they realize. If I did not think it was bad for them spiritually, I wouldn't have spent so much time arguing about it. I mean look at the comments that were made concerning the church and God to justify this music. The church was labeled as wrong and not fitting Christ's description; Our Lord became accepting of everything - both are incorrect. The music is what leads one to come to these errors.
good points. i want to add that we should also write new orthodox hymns in the language of the country we live in and also in our native language. we should discuss these new hymns with the bishops to make sure the theology is ok. then we should sing them! :)
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Is God not going to accept my praise because you may think its, "protestant"? Is God really gnna be tht determined for the type of music he hears coming from you.. or is he gnna care about the heart that you are lifting to him? This music has NOTHING wrong with it! I personally really like lacrae.... the lyrics in his songs are much more powerful then many of the songs in our church. Im not saying tht the songs in our church are bad or boring... bit as Christrose said b4.... they are depressing! The fruit of the spirit is Joy not Depression! If the song is gnna give me the joy of the spirit... and its gnna make me lift up my heart to god im gnna listen to it!
Another thing i wanted to say is a story... it may not have to do with songs... but the moral is the same
There was once a new convert to the church, whom was at first a dancer. After converting he went into monasticism. When he was a monk, he always go to the other monks and ask them for a word, or ask them a bunch of questions about the church, God, etc. This got the monks annoyed, so they decided to kick him out... but b4 telling him, they let him lead the prayer for tht day, and they all hid and watched him. When he got to church for the prayer, he didn't see anyone, so he decided to start the prayer on his own. And he didnt know what to say or how to pray, and he didn't know too many hymns, so he began to dance... for God. He was doing all the dance moves he did b4 monasticism... except this time it was for God... and to praise God. The monks so this and hey were all about to jump out at him and throw him out of the monastery... but right as they went to do that... they saw the hand of Jesus from the icon wiping the sweat off his head from the dancing!!!!!!
Moral of the story... God accepts all types of praise as long as it comes from the heart... We s humans have no right to judge what God accepts or not... only God can
pray for me
When David danced in front of the ark of covenant, his wife, looked a him and made fun of him, cuz she felt the same way, this is not how we should praise God. Because of that, God immediately punished her, and closed her womb! Dont fall into the same sin as Davis wife!
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12544.msg147371#msg147371 date=1321033085]
Is God not going to accept my praise because you may think its, "protestant"? Is God really gnna be tht determined for the type of music he hears coming from you.. or is he gnna care about the heart that you are lifting to him?
The music we think is protestant? It is protestant. God is not an anything goes God. There are rules. There are certain methods of praise that are acceptable to him, and others which are not. Cain's offering was not acceptable because they were not according to the specifications of God. When praising God, it is important to do it His way. Also don't forget that the soul is not independent of the body, and the bodily senses effect the prayer you offer. Not all prayers are accepted before God. There is a correct and an incorrect way to praise. CCM is emotionally uplifting but spiritually hindering. So Yes, God indeed does care about how you praise Him. Although the heart is of tantamount importance, the senses are of definite importance.
When St. Augustine entered the church he said, "How much I wept at your Hymns and Canticles, deeply moved by the voices of your sweetly singing Church!" Then he turned to God and said, "Yet when it happens to me to be more moved by the singing than by what is sung, I confess myself to have sinned criminally, and then I would rather not have heard the singing."
For more about hymnology, read this. Read section 4 specifically. It also answers your question about David.
As for your story, I have heard it many times. How do I know that it is real, and not some story someone decided to make up to prove a point? Where is the source. Who wrote it, and are they dependable? If so, then I will consider it. I am not saying that it is not true, I just have no reason to accept it as so. Secondly, as you said, we cannot judge how God sees our prayers. You are very correct in saying that. But since we cannot take the judgement, it makes sense to follow in the ways of our fathers. Our goal is salvation and unity with Christ so we should follow the words of Solomon the wise in Song of Songs, "If you do not know, most beautiful of women, follow the tracks of the sheep and graze your young goats by the tents of the shepherds." (Songs 1:8 ) So since we cannot deciede, it makes sense that we should take the high road, and follow the method of our fathers which have brought them to the kingdom of God.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Also,God did not accept cain offering because he did not give God his best. The rule was give God your best, but cain didnt do that, so in a way he was saying to God you dont deserve it.
Show me one Bible verse tht says that we cannot praise gos with christian rock or rap!
Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!
Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!
Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!
Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD! (Psalm 150:1-6 NKJ)
This psalm sows us that we should praise God with all instruments and singing...... It no where says, "Dont praise God as the protestants do!" You are judging for God, how about you step aside and let god do the judging for himself ok?
Dont be foolish. The bible doesn't need to say something about Christian rock or rap. Its speaks about the spirit of praise, and if you used your mind to discern and try to understand it (rather then just dismissing it as wrong like you did with the article), then maybe you would connect the dots. It seems to me that you beleiev connecting the dots is judging.
In any case, there is a final judgement. God will judge the right from the wrong. You have been warned. If you want to go on pretending like there is nothing wrong, no one will hold you back. You seem to take comfort in saying, "Let god do the judging for himself." That should not give you comfort. If he judges against you, there is no comfort.
If you have any real responses I would love to hear them. To go around saying that my article is written by naive people is itself judging, and is an outright display of you inability to take the other side of an argument honestly. If you give me reason to acknowledge what you say, (fathers speaking about the use of music, biblical commentaries or any well constructed article) then I will consider it. You mentioned the story of that monk again... what is your source?
ReturnOrthodoxy
There was once a new convert to the church, whom was at first a dancer. After converting he went into monasticism. When he was a monk, he always go to the other monks and ask them for a word, or ask them a bunch of questions about the church, God, etc. This got the monks annoyed, so they decided to kick him out... but b4 telling him, they let him lead the prayer for tht day, and they all hid and watched him. When he got to church for the prayer, he didn't see anyone, so he decided to start the prayer on his own. And he didnt know what to say or how to pray, and he didn't know too many hymns, so he began to dance... for God. He was doing all the dance moves he did b4 monasticism... except this time it was for God... and to praise God. The monks so this and hey were all about to jump out at him and throw him out of the monastery... but right as they went to do that... they saw the hand of Jesus from the icon wiping the sweat off his head from the dancing!!!!!!
Moral of the story... God accepts all types of praise as long as it comes from the heart... We s humans have no right to judge what God accepts or not... only God can
pray for me
OMG LOL I heard this same story but it was with a clown juggling and it was St. Mary who appeared to wipe the sweat!
What about the modern songs that elaborate on a particular verse in the Bible? Like "Blessed be your name", quoting from Job, or the song "Better is one day", quoting from the Psalms. Lyrics excerpt:
"How lovely is Your dwelling place, Oh Lord Almighty
My soul longs and even faints for You
For here my heart is satisfied, within Your presence
I sing beneath the shadow of Your wings
Better is one day in Your courts
Better is one day in Your house
Better is one day in Your courts
Than thousands elsewhere"
Most of the above verses are taken directly from Psalm 84.
For the Passion Retreat on the East Coast (attended by many priests and bishops), I heard they do sing modern English songs like this, after they have been approved.
In any case, we DO know how to pray. We don't have to resort to dancing or singing silly songs. Like H.G. BY pointed to in the article, what needs to be examined is more than the lyrics. If all we did was examine lyrics then we might as well sing Abdel Halim during youth meetings!
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12544.msg147371#msg147371 date=1321033085]
I personally really like lacrae.... the lyrics in his songs are much more powerful then many of the songs in our church. Im not saying tht the songs in our church are bad or boring... bit as Christrose said b4.... they are depressing! The fruit of the spirit is Joy not Depression! If the song is gnna give me the joy of the spirit... and its gnna make me lift up my heart to god im gnna listen to it!
This has to be the most telling part of your immature post. You think that these songs are more powerful than the hymns of the church! They bring you joy?! The church hymns depress you?!
As I always tell people who bring up these ridiculous arguments: As a child you want baby food, when you grow up you may can handle some real substance. These songs are for babies that lack depth and want a quick "high" or an easy "buzz." But there is no nutritional value. You don't gain anything. Your spirit remains weak and the body masters it. The hymns of the church speak to the spirit and build a person up. There are so many reasons for the hymns of the church being as they are -- I won't begin to get into it for the sake of brevity.
Rest assured, the hymns of the church are as they are purposefully. Nothing is haphazard. It is for the benefit of its people and to bring us to salvation. This is the same reason the church does not allow PROTEST-ant songs in the church - for the sake of the people. If you cannot trust this, you have no faith in the wisdom of the church. If you do not obey and trust in the wisdom of the church, (I'll let you fill in this blank). . .
I think moral of the story is "do not judge".
When the samaratan women (excuse my spelling) asked christ
" Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.'"
I want all you guys to know smething. You guys keep thinking that Alan is going to make everyone love church and god and you keep assuming that people who like these songs don't know Alhan. Avvakaras probably knows more Alhan than all of you but it's not his love for Alhan that's gonna get him to heaven but how much he loves god. I'm sorry but you guys assumed that I don't know or Love Alhan either and thats completely absurd. Alhan is beautiful but just because someone likes these songs doesn't mean he is an ignorant fool.
Knowledge of alhan does not equal love of the alhan or even understanding of them. I never said you can't like these songs, but to like them more than our hymns and say they are better demonstrates to me that you never understood alhan to begin with.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12544.msg147385#msg147385 date=1321043930]
And Andrew I'm sorry but your wrong. Orthodox means the right way. The right way to you is not the same to god. And you need to stop making god go by your standards because god is higher than your standards of what is right and what is wrong or what is orthodox and non orthodox. You guys need to look at things from gods side not from the church. Because. Beautiful as our church is we have had a lot of influence that has come from so many places that dont even match our faith. You guys need to open up to accepting other ways of doing things. Our Coptic way is not the only way.
(emphasis mine)
I was always under the impression that they were the same thing. You know the whole a house divided against itself cannot stand business made me think the church was following our Lord. Maybe the whole bride and bridegroom analogy was a joke too. What about the church being the body of Christ and He is the head. . . just figurative language?
Day by day, I am becoming more drawn to your answers. I am 100% with everything you said. That dancer (or juggler) didn't know how to pray and so St. Mary (or Jesus) was pleased with his offering. Again, I still have no reason to accept the story as true. I believe that you made a reference to that by saying that it may be a made up story to exhibit the everything goes ideology. I do not believe the story.
Servant33,
You make a good point. However, christian lyrics are nothing if they are supported by unchristian music. I used to be in love with CCM. I memorized Casting Crowns, Mercy Me, Hillsong united, and all of the other ones. most of them have good lyrics. Straight out of the bible. The idea i about the music. If you refer to my earlier post which contained H.G. Bishop Youssef's point, you will understand more fully that what we are talking about is beyond the lyrics. I agree with you that the best way is to show him the beauty of the hymns, but the problem is that CCM is too drawing to be overridden by ancient hymnology. unless one first realizes the futility of CCM, ancient hymnology will remain dull, boring, and CCM will remain more interesting.
TITL,
Do not judge is always a premise which we as Christians must live by, but at what point are we being passive to spreading the truth? Did St. Athanasius sin in telling Arius that his heresy was unacceptable before God? We make nothing out of our own understanding, we simply re-iterate what the bible states. There is characteristics of an accepted praise, and those of the unaccepted. We do not condemn people who listen to CCM to hell. But that does not stop us from saying what is right vs. what is wrong. CCM is wrong. No body can change that.
Christ-Rose,
Whether you know alhan is not the point. In fact, for your sake, I hope it is that you don't know alhan. It is like Andrew said, it is worse if you know how to praise, but you return to unacceptable things. It is of little concern whether or not he knows more alhan than us, or less. The truth is, the view that CCM is accaptable is faulty. It is faulty in the mouth of Ibrahim Ayad as much as it is faulty in the eyes of Casting Crowns. If you like CCM, then you are lying to yourself, and feeding yourself ice. Just because ice is solid, and can be ingested, it does not mean it is food. Just because this music has christian lyrics, it does not make it christian music. Also, here is another one of the messages that you may find in these protestant songs, which has crept into your mind: You say that it is not the love of alhan that leads to heaven but the love of god. how then will you show your love for God? When you love someone, you how them by doing what they want. If God doesn't want CCM music but you insist on "praising" him by that, it is the same as me loving a girl, and instead of proposing to her with a ring, I by her a monster truck. That is the way I show my love. In the end, it is not only about loving God. It is also about the way you show your love. What are the characteristics of God as revealed to us in Jesus? Meek, humble, quiet, shall not have his voice heard in the streets. All of these conflict with the methods of CCM. That is the biblical view, not the church's view.
AvvaKaras,
God's judgement is clear in the bible. How do you know god is more open to all types. That is not how he is portrayed in the bible! Stop making that up! you forgot to highlight an important part in that quote: Being, "SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS." Christ asserted that there is one root to salvation!
ReturnOrthodoxy
For those who want to know the truth, there has been sufficient evidence here to guide you. For those who don't want the truth, God will give it to you anyway. I am not going to respond to this thread again. We get nowhere. Whatever has been said can only be repeated, and when repeated it is met with opposition on acount of judging and the like.
I give up on these childish conversations.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I loveeee alhan, i loveeee taraneim, and i loveeeee christian rap/rock too! We dont have to be stuck in one thing, God isnt there in heaven refusing praise from people cuz the song is "protestantie" God accepts all praise... Gods judgment is not how we judge... he doesnt go with the same standards as we do... unlike humans God is more open to all types of praise! God is not stiffnecked as the jews were, whom thought that you could only worship God in one way!
When the samaratan women (excuse my spelling) asked christ
" Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.'"
No one said don't like taraneem or "Christian" rock. . .just don't fool yourself and call it praising God. I love how you keep telling us not to speak for God and not to judge yet you do that in almost every line. How do you know God is not refusing these types of worship? If anything was acceptable the church would have allowed anything in the church. Don't be so easily deceived by your flesh.
Let me push you to your limit, since you say God accepts all praise.
I have grown up in a village where the greatest way to bestow honor to someone is to perform sexual acts in front of them. This is how I praise their greatness. I know no better, I have done this my whole life. One day I am converted to Christianity. I join a monastery and then I go to before the altar to do these sexual acts to praise God. You see what I am about to do. . .will you stand idly by? Will you think to yourself: Who am I to judge? God will accept this worship.
I hope that got your intuition going. Some things are objectively wrong. There are wrong ways to worship God. One of which is so obvious and apparent (as the example above shows) but most are subtle. However, they are wrong nonetheless. When we worship God is it with fear and trembling. We address Him as Master and Lord while having comfort in the fact that He is our Father.
These songs are just that: Songs.Songs that please you and lead you to falsely believe that you are worshiping God. There is no depth in the music - just a catchy beat thrown to some verses of the Bible.
Hymns and taraneem are a means to the End. The point is some means are much better than others! With protestant hymns you only get one image of God and it is incomplete. The Orthodox hymnology teaches us about our God in fullness and truth.
And dornt call anyone immature you guys make these threads into arguments by the way you talk. I don't liked the way you made these threads into attacking each other without the spirit of love. I want to let you know that both I and ava Karas love the church very much and it's hymns and just to reassure you I have won the hymn competition for the east coast of the united states 4 years straight do before you tell me I don't know or love Alhan double check that. But you also have to see that we are not fighting against songs or words were fighting against people's heads. You guys have ur opinion and nothing we say is going to change that. And I was just like that but god showed me that he isn't like that. HE DOESN'T CARE IF I SING ALHAN OR IF I SAY GOD I LOVE YOU. HE DOENST CARE IF I SAY OOOO AAA ALL DAY HE CARES ABOUT WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY THAT OOOO AAAA. wake up guys. The amount of Alhan u listen to isn't getting yo into heaven. And on a different note, gods sacrifice on the cross was for all people.other people than just Coptic people are going to heaven and they don't know Alhan or orthodox rites or anything. And if you judge and say others aren't going that u yourself aren't going. And if others are getting there that means THAT THEIR WAYS ARE JUST AS ACCEPTED BY GOD AS OURS. So enough with this stupidity of their songs are wrong. If they don't have words that are theologically incorrect it's not an issue and if it's not a song that wants you to get up and dance with a ra2asa then praise god with it. Stop with this thing of just our way it's so ignorant
I can tell by this post that you have never really experienced the depth of the hymns the Church offers. You love them in the same way that you love protestant songs: They are just another form of music that has a cool rhythm. You reduce the hymns to "OOOO AAAA."
Well now that that's resolved : Apology time! Dear everyone I'm sorry for the fighting and name calling. Please let us all be sisters and brothers under Christ and may God guide us to know how to praise in the way that best pleases Him.
I really admire how you always come in to bring peace to seemingly heated debates.
[quote=Matthew 5:9]Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
However, I have no hard feelings towards people who are passionate about "Christian" rock and think it is worship music. I'm concerned about them more than they realize. If I did not think it was bad for them spiritually, I wouldn't have spent so much time arguing about it. I mean look at the comments that were made concerning the church and God to justify this music. The church was labeled as wrong and not fitting Christ's description; Our Lord became accepting of everything - both are incorrect. The music is what leads one to come to these errors.
i want to add that we should also write new orthodox hymns in the language of the country we live in and also in our native language.
we should discuss these new hymns with the bishops to make sure the theology is ok.
then we should sing them!
:)