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Romans 11

NESS55NESS55
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
what is the Coptic veiw of Romans 11?

NESS<><

Comments

  • Unknown
    That's really interesting question.


    Romans 11:

    Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";  "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.  For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

    -----------------


    I think you should read this:

    http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/165_Israel_Palestine_and_the_Middle_East/

    John Piper, the author, is not Coptic, but he's one of a very rare breed of Christians that sees the Jews as not qualifying for the inheritance due to their disobedience. A lot of evangelicals still feel that jews should be entitled to the promised land.

    I too would like to know, but I can honestly tell you that J.Piper is quite a good source.
  • childoforthodoxy
    Hello everyone,

    For an Orthodox perspective on the matter, I recommend taking a look at what St. John Chrysostom stated in his homily on the issue:

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vii.xxi.html

    I also advise you to take a look at this great resource:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yVs2SQkeZEoC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=cyril+of+alexandria+epistle+to+the+romans&source=web&ots=9Y-Oel3YeT&sig=dv9wZDkeCP4MHEwf4BMW9t_wpIU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA286,M1

    The commentary on the verses mentioned above starts on page 286.

    I strongly urge you to click the link and read what is there. In order to have our minds be fashioned after the mindset of the Church, we must read what the Church Fathers presented on the issue. In this way, we may acquire the blessings of their words and may begin to correctly understand the Bible.

    Pray for my weakness,
    childoforthodoxy
  • Unknown
    [quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7465.msg98577#msg98577 date=1229675512]
    Hello everyone,

    For an Orthodox perspective on the matter, I recommend taking a look at what St. John Chrysostom stated in his homily on the issue:

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vii.xxi.html

    I also advise you to take a look at this great resource:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yVs2SQkeZEoC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=cyril+of+alexandria+epistle+to+the+romans&source=web&ots=9Y-Oel3YeT&sig=dv9wZDkeCP4MHEwf4BMW9t_wpIU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA286,M1

    The commentary on the verses mentioned above starts on page 286.

    I strongly urge you to click the link and read what is there. In order to have our minds be fashioned after the mindset of the Church, we must read what the Church Fathers presented on the issue. In this way, we may acquire the blessings of their words and may begin to correctly understand the Bible.

    Pray for my weakness,
    childoforthodoxy


    Thank you,

    Your post was very well put. I couldnt agree more.
  • childoforthodoxy
    Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

    I was wondering if there is a certain part of the chapter, perhaps a particular verse or a group of verses that need further clarification. Please, feel that you may ask freely. I am the least of you in knowledge, but endeavor to learn from the great teachings of the Fathers which have preceded us to enlighten our minds and our paths.

    Pray for me, and remember me in the House of the Lord,
    childoforthodoxy
  • Unknown
    [quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7465.msg98598#msg98598 date=1229732912]
    Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

    I was wondering if there is a certain part of the chapter, perhaps a particular verse or a group of verses that need further clarification. Please, feel that you may ask freely. I am the least of you in knowledge, but endeavor to learn from the great teachings of the Fathers which have preceded us to enlighten our minds and our paths.

    Pray for me, and remember me in the House of the Lord,
    childoforthodoxy


    Hi ChildofOrthodoxy,
    Thanks for your helping us understand this.
    Why don't you take us through it? Verse by verse?
    Give us the message the CoC has of this Chapter? It would be good to have someone learned do this rather us making our own conclusions from reading around.

    I know you've given the sources which is good, but not all computers can open such files.

    Many thanks for your time, and any help you can offer.
  • NESS55NESS55
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7465.msg98599#msg98599 date=1229733763]
    [quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7465.msg98598#msg98598 date=1229732912]
    Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

    I was wondering if there is a certain part of the chapter, perhaps a particular verse or a group of verses that need further clarification. Please, feel that you may ask freely. I am the least of you in knowledge, but endeavor to learn from the great teachings of the Fathers which have preceded us to enlighten our minds and our paths.

    Pray for me, and remember me in the House of the Lord,
    childoforthodoxy


    Hi ChildofOrthodoxy,
    Thanks for your helping us understand this.
    Why don't you take us through it? Verse by verse?
    Give us the message the CoC has of this Chapter? It would be good to have someone learned do this rather us making our own conclusions from reading around.

    I know you've given the sources which is good, but not all computers can open such files.

    Many thanks for your time, and any help you can offer.


    i second that

    NESS<><
  • childoforthodoxy
    In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the One God. Amen.

    I think that, in order to make the explanation of the chapter feel less daunting, we should try to take our inquiry into the meaning of the blessed words a few verses at a time. This will also allow any questions about the verses to be raised at their appropriate time.

    1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

    Examine the first verse of this chapter, as it states that God has not cast away the nation of Israel. Recall that Paul himself was Jewish by birth. If one were to think, for example, that God has found the Israelites to be unfit for salvation and that God has admonished their being unreceptive by abandoning them, this is not the case. A very strong example of this is the conversion of Paul, a man whose bloodline is of the Jews, but who through the Grace of God, has received the enlightenment of Christianity, and who now preaches to the world the Word of God so that others may be saved.

    Paul also brings into account the words of Elijah the prophet, who thought himself to be alone in following God. Those who believed in the time of Elijah were only a portion of the entire people of Israel, just as it was in the time of Paul, and just as it continues in our time today. There is a great word which Pelagius has spoken on this matter, saying, "If so many men were hidden from the prophet [meaning Elijah], how much more are you unaware of how many Jews have been saved and are to be saved?" We are so quick to think that the number of the Jewish people who obtain salvation through following Christianity is few, a meager number that must not be substantial enough or else we would know about it. This is not the case! Note that we are to examine our own hearts and our own lives, concerned with our own salvation, and that we are to be lights of the world by means of our actions, calling others into the knowledge of Christ, which is to say, the experience of Christ. We pride ourselves in being Christian, but this is contradictory; pride does not exist with God. We are to be thankful that we have received the grace of being open to the faith of Orthodoxy, and thankful that God has strengthened us in our pursuit of knowledge towards Him, while praying that others, too, may experience this as well and receive the kingdom of God.

    Take heed of the words spoken to us by Origen concerning the next verse: "The fact that Paul adds the words 'chosen by grace' seems to me to be significant. He could have said simply that there is a remnant saved by grace, but by adding 'chosen' he indicates that there is grace both with and without election. For everyone who is saved has doubtless been saved by grace, but those who have been saved by the election of grace seem to me to be more perfect that the others. For just as Israel includes all those who are descended from the nation of Israel as well as those who worship God with a pure mind and sincere heart, so we may also assume that all who come to faith in Christ come by grace. But those in whom the gift of grace is adorned with the works of virtue and purity of heart will be said to be saved not only by grace but by the election of grace."

    I urge you to read the preceding words words carefully, as many interpret the meaning of election and grace as having to do with the concept of predestination. This is not the case. Theodoret of Cyrus says that "the elect are those who believed." Know that the attainment of salvation is not done solely on our part; that is to say, a person with faith and works enters the kingdom of heaven not solely on the basis of his part, but also by the grace of the Holy Spirit, endowed upon us at the time of the Holy Mystery of Baptism. It is this grace which enables us to become members of the body of Christ, a gift given to those by God who seek out His Name. Those who receive this gift of grace by means of receiving the Holy Spirit through the Mystery of Baptism are then called to a continuous struggle of attempting to fulfill the commandments of God, of loving God with every faculty of our being, and of loving one another as God has loved us. It is in this that we progress, by means of being strengthened by the Lord, towards God.

    St. John Chrysostom on the matter: "For it is not to deny free-will that he speaks of their having "obtained" (as by chance, Gr. ἐ πέτυχε) it, but to show the greatness of the good things, and that the greater part was of grace, though not the whole.  For we too are in the habit of saying, "so and so chanced to get" (same word), "so and so met with," when the gain has been a great one. Because it is not by man's labors, but by God's gift, that the greater part was brought about."

    Know that God saves the willing. St. John Chrysostom speaks a great word on this: "If we are all saved by grace, some might argue, why is everyone not saved? Because they did not want to be is the answer. For grace, even though it is grace, saves the willing, not those who refuse it and turn away from it."

    Blessed Augustine also writes: "Grace is given not because we have done good works but ind order that we may have power to do them, not because we have fulfilled the law but in order that we may be able to fulfill it."

    The great St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Israel tried to find righteousness in the type which was the law but did not obtain it. However, those who were sealed were elected and did obtain it on account of their belief, being justified by their faith. The rest were blinded, being hardened and rebellious."

    The action of fulfilling the works commanded by God in the Old Testament is not enough. Indeed, we read in several instances in the Bible that there were very strict Jews who believed that following the letter of the law alone would lead them to salvation, and not the Spirit of the law, having rejected the latter. In the words of St. John Chrysostom: "For the Jew, he means, is inconsistent with himself when he seeketh for righteousness, which he will not accept."

    Why is it spoken of in the few remaining verses that they were given a spirit of stupor and were blinded? The words indicate a consequence of their choice, a choice which the Israelites continuously rejected the Lord God with great stubbornness. It does not refer to the cause of their actions, but is rather a result of their behavior. Again, this is not to say that the entire nation rejected Him. Let us place ourselves in their position now. Do we not, ourselves, reject God on a daily basis when we sin? Are we not often stubborn in our ways, persisting in habits of sinfulness which lead us away from God? See how difficult we are on others and how lenient we are on ourselves! See how we choose to point fingers so quickly at others while we ourselves are subject to the same criticism, only worse because we know our own hearts and know the intent of our actions, while we do not know that which drives another person.

    Without wanting to lengthen this discourse for much longer, I wish to speak to you these words, and apply them to myself as well: take not the spirit of conceit in terms of your faith, having thought that you have achieved something great and that the others fail in the same respect. We have received the faith through the grace of God and think ourselves, as individuals, to be higher than those around us. Not only of those outside the Church, but also those within it. Be wary and watch! It is God who has given you this gift of the Holy Spirit and who strengthens you in your struggle; it is we who put in the small amount of effort by desire of being closer to God. We are quick to read the Bible and liken ourselves to the Gentiles by race and separate ourselves from the Jews... but are we worthy of even being likened to those Gentiles in faith? Think not in terms of the earthly, but rather in terms of the heavenly, and see what needs to be done in our own lives to bring us closer to God, whether it is continuing our struggle or just beginning it.

    Pray for my weakness and ignorance,
    childoforthodoxy
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