Election 08

edited December 1969 in Youth Corner
As a Coptic Orthodox Christian, who should i support for the election of the next president; Obama or McCain?
Musician
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  • idk if i should say anything because the last politics post was locked by the admins.  Please forgive me!=)

    +mahraeel+
  • Separation of Church and State !!!

    You should vote for whomever you think is going to run the country best... (regardless of their religious background)

    God Bless
  • but wat if one of the canidates supports things that we don't agree about? like same-gender marriages and taking out God in everything? r we supposed to let them do that?
  • I don't understand why christians/copt want to force their ideas on others... No one can ever force you to take God out of your life or to marry someone from the same gender...so if the president supports freedom of opinion, then it shouldn't be held against him

    In a democratic country, in my belief, there should be separation between religion and state, so yes God (or religion) should be taken out of state matters. All citizens, regardless of their belief, should be able to live in their country and have the same rights.
    Which is why I support the right of homosexuals to have a civil marriage, which doesn't stop christians from having their marriage.

    What's even more bewildering, is the fact that we copts in Egypt want to take out art. 2 from the Egyptian constitution which states that Islam is the religion of the state and that the Islamic shari3a is the main source of law, because we say that religion and state should be separated and that we should have equal rights as the muslims. So how can we be hypocritical and demand for religion to be interwined with state matters in another country (such as America)??

    God Bless
  • Also does the president saying 'God bless America' mean that God's commandments are being followed by the government??? Does the fact that it says on the American dollar 'In God we trust' mean that this money can't come from stealing, weapons used to kill people, and unlawful wars???

    Taking God out of everything is not a matter of words, it's a matter of deeds...
    and also God being in everything is not a matter of empty slogans but of deeds...
  • okaaay but that may affect the people even if it doesnt affect u! And that could lead to a stumbling nation so y pick a president who does not love Jesus....

    +mahraeel+
  • Because the president SAYING that he loves Jesus, doesn't mean he actually does

    And EVEN if he did love Jesus, that doesn't mean he would be a good president

    Also, the president should be president for all the American people, not just the christians
    (at least if America is claiming to be a democratic country)

    God Bless
  • Biblically speaking, making secular decisions is down-right wrong. godislove260 has in no time demonstrated any Biblical verse to validate this common misconception. We are to be a light to the world, approving what is right in the sight of God, the Creator also of Unbelievers- who also gives grace to them to keep whatever image of God left in them. We know that with the secular Kings of Israel, how much the Old Testament Church (Israel) suffered so. You can see these effects now. The State imposes its immorality and policies onto the Church. As a Church, we should have our own say. We work deceit to not vote for what our Lord wants, for it is His life that I am witness to, not my own. My whole life must be consecrated to His will. Secularism has no place in our conduct- it may have a place in the running of the country, but as for a mere voter, this is definitely not the case. "He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; he who tells lies shall not continue in my presence", says David the prophet. How can we put aside our Christian orientated mind, and lie with our votes.

    We should not allow society to plunge to the depths of immorality-and sanctify this by our votes? Should it be again that "God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth"?

    How can we allow abortion unrestrained to continue- how can we say its okay to murder, even if you are a non-believer. This is only but one example. I admit this sort of portrays that I am going for McCain, but the McCain's do not have any vision at all to assist and help the poor- but on the contrary, giving tax-cuts to the rich. This bewilders me, as well as many other aspects of both candidates.

    Still, the message is clear- vote with the values of Christ. You simply cannot become a "schizophrenic" and divorce your duties as a Christian and as a Citizen.
  • Clay, I didn't give any biblical verses because I wasn't speaking as a christian only, but as a citizen... In my country, this religion-based state you so seem to defend so much, has done nothing but discriminate the minorities who don't share its belief. In my county the law is based on religion, yet look what the law has brought the innocent people of this country who don't belief in this religion that the law is based upon.
    In my country, you will see 'God in everything': the way people speak, the constitution, even in the passports there is a space left to 'God'. In my country, lies the city where it's been said that it has the largest amount of religious buildings belonging to that religion, which by art 2 of its constitution is the religion of the state.

    Have you guessed the country?
    Secularism is the only way different people with different beliefs can live together...
    It would be hypocritical of us to demand for our religion to be in one state (america), but at the same time demand that the other state (egypt) deletes art 2 of the constitution...
    This I can give a biblical verse for:  1Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

    I agree we should be the light of the world, but we cannot force people to do what's right, we cannot force gays to not be gay, we cannot force them to believe in what we believe and we cannot take away their civil right as citizens to get married. Marriage is not a monopoly to the church, it has existed long before christianity...

    And about abortion, this is a universal matter of killing an infant and it's not only the christians who are against it, but any life-respecting human being should be...

    God Bless
  • Secularism does not equal  to ''become a "schizophrenic" and divorce your duties as a Christian and as a Citizen. '' because you can be a christian in every thing in your life as you wish, while being a citizen. But you cannot FORCE PEOPLE TO ABIDE BY THE RULES OF YOUR BELIEF AND TAKE AWAY THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS !!!
    If civil gay marriage was allowed that wouldn't mean that you would have to marry someone from the same gender !!!

    Allah yer7amak ya Sa3d Zaghloul: 'El Deen lellah wel Watan lel gamee3'
    Sa3d Zaghloul, God rest his soul, a true Egyptian said this wonderful thing:
    'Religion is for God and the State is for all' ...
  • Wow, i couldn't agree more with godislove260. 

    No matter what kind of president we get, no one will force us to reject God. But i still wish Obama didn't support gay marriage and abortion.
  • the thing is that my mum is convinced that obama is muslim, and that he'll imply muslim laws in america. i try to tell her that congress would never agree, yet she's convinced that his relations with Hamass is true. i think the ? is if he'll be a good president, but my mum thinks that the true ? is if he'll turn america into Saudi Arabia?
    Confused
    Musician 
  • [quote author=Coptic Orthodox Musician link=topic=7283.msg96651#msg96651 date=1225664086]
    the thing is that my mum is convinced that obama is muslim, and that he'll imply muslim laws in america. i try to tell her that congress would never agree, yet she's convinced that his relations with Hamass is true. i think the ? is if he'll be a good president, but my mum thinks that the true ? is if he'll turn america into Saudi Arabia?
    Confused
    Musician 


    well that's just too extreme.

    but he is in fact against the Bible and thinks it's just radical to use it as a belief.
    ALso of course, he's a democrat. He can't be trusted. he simply doesn't have the values of a republican even if that republican is not the best out there.

    I am not saying he'll turn America into Saudi Arabia but he just wont do much good for it at this time. He will in fact get "change" but it's not the change that would fully get you to the best or even what you'd like!!!
  • I hate abortion too, but if people are going to do (women), then they're going to do it whether its legal or not. That also goes for same sex relationships... Remember the 18th amendment when they tried to ban consumption of alcohol... it did nothing.. people continued to drink. I think in general Egyptians (older ones) tend to be superstitious of anything that can in the slightest bit be connected to islam...

    But I see that Obama has good ideas, particularly for education, which is unreasonably expensive nowadays...

    You can't legislate from one particular religion, if we are a country for everyone and not a theocracy (even if we are right  ;))
  • [quote author=user00 link=topic=7283.msg96653#msg96653 date=1225672173]
    I hate abortion too, but if people are going to do (women), then they're going to do it whether its legal or not. That also goes for same sex relationships... Remember the 18th amendment when they tried to ban consumption of alcohol... it did nothing.. people continued to drink.
    well that is not a reason not to make it all illegal. things need to be set right.

    I think in general Egyptians (older ones) tend to be superstitious of anything that can in the slightest bit be connected to islam...

    i think we had (have) enough experiance to be so. i don't wanna start getting into this topic, but we all know how an "islamic president" might do.


    But I see that Obama has good ideas, particularly for education, which is unreasonably expensive nowadays...

    what are you talking about. he can't do much about it. public education is still the same. now universities, he can't do much either.....most colleges are private and even if they are federal, somehow they are supported by others who just don't want the government to be involved. it's that simple....yes tuition increases every year, but what are you gonna do. set a "tuition ceiling " as to a price ceiling. NO.....the best you can do is make books cheaper, provide more money to college to lower tuition, or best of all, increase financial aid. ALL of this is not a huge problem now. there are a lot of others things to worry about rather than "college price".


    You can't legislate from one particular religion, if we are a country for everyone and not a theocracy (even if we are right  ;))

    Loook, this is what i say for anyone who argues with me, thinking that "theocracy" mentality. Someone's religion is his belief. Someone's belief is the way he will think of things to make choices. you are electing a person who will make choices for everyone here, who thinks with his own mind, which is effected by his own belief, which is his own religion....it's that simple to understand.

    Don't think directly of this. there is a lot more that a president can do outside the "congress will not let him do" realm.
  • [quote author=clay link=topic=7283.msg96643#msg96643 date=1225632051]
    Biblically speaking, making secular decisions is down-right wrong. godislove260 has in no time demonstrated any Biblical verse to validate this common misconception.


    Matthew 22:21

    "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

  • OBAMA  for the win

    i am from Australia (down under) and i agree that obama should win
  • I think as a Christian, we should not elect leaders because they are Christian or muslim or whatever. We have to be fair and just. Someone more "religious" than someone else does not mean that they'll make a better leader for a country. Who are we to judge anyway someone's spiritual level? We are electing a leader of a country, not a sunday school teacher!!!

    Muslims have good principles also. So, electing someone muslim shouldn't be wrong - but I don't think it would be a good idea to elect someone muslim for a predominantly Christian country.

    Look at this: Bush is a Christian, and a fanatical one at that; yet this crazy man started an illegal war in Iraq based on false intelligence information and has led his country into poverty (US - your deficit is 1 trillion dollars). What good did being Christian do? Bush is also for saving sex until marriage. Yet all his projects for saving sex until marriage have failed. They've only worked for those families who are already Christian, and who believe its wrong to have sex outside marriage.

    No other president in US history had the lowest popularity ratings. Do you want people to say "Bush was a Christian, and look at the damage he's done through his Chrisitan values?" - or basically, he was a bad leader that happened to be Christian?

    Obama believes in abortion being the right for a mother to chose but believes in peace through diplomacy - not war. He himself maybe against abortion, but believes it is up to the mother to decide in consultation with her family/doctors/religious advisors.

    McCain does not believe in abortion, but believes that the Iraqi war is correct, and he's happy to start more wars apparently to spread democracy. Like Bush, he seems only to be focussing on countries outside Africa. He allowed Rwanda to happen, Darfur and now the Congo, yet the Bush administration is not at all keen to help these nations.

    Put it this way: if someone is going to have an abortion, sex before marriage, anything immoral in a country where it is illegal, they will do it anyway. Just look at Egypt.
  • [quote author=Adomad link=topic=7283.msg96665#msg96665 date=1225698161]
    OBAMA  for the win

    i am from Australia (down under) and i agree that obama should win


    maybe you can give a good reason why?!!!


    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7283.msg96666#msg96666 date=1225700466]
    Look at this: Bush is a Christian, and a fanatical one at that; yet this crazy man started an illegal war in Iraq based on false intelligence information and has led his country into poverty (US - your deficit is 1 trillion dollars). What good did being Christian do? Bush is also for saving sex until marriage. Yet all his projects for saving sex until marriage have failed. They've only worked for those families who are already Christian, and who believe its wrong to have sex outside marriage.

    No other president in US history had the lowest popularity ratings. Do you want people to say "Bush was a Christian, and look at the damage he's done through his Chrisitan values?" - or basically, he was a bad leader that happened to be Christian?

    Obama believes in abortion being the right for a mother to chose but believes in peace through diplomacy - not war. He himself maybe against abortion, but believes it is up to the mother to decide in consultation with her family/doctors/religious advisors.

    McCain does not believe in abortion, but believes that the Iraqi war is correct, and he's happy to start more wars apparently to spread democracy. Like Bush, he seems only to be focussing on countries outside Africa. He allowed Rwanda to happen, Darfur and now the Congo, yet the Bush administration is not at all keen to help these nations.


    you are not putting what ever those people are saying in contexts. At the time, around Sep 11, IT WAS RIGHT to go to war with Iraq. no one can deny that. ALL AMERICA supported him on that, even Iraqis were happy. There was never, ever an attack on the US as Sep 11. As a president, any slightest thread from anyone was going to be taking in charge, atleast partially of what happens. But then it really came down when the plan to restore was failing. NOW, to just take the troops out in the least time possible, the country will be FULLY done, which what Obama wants to do.

    So ALL are not perfect but we just have to deal and choose what is the best of the worst. And with that concept, I will choose a republican who would still have his values at ANY TIME over a democrat.

    Not including how unexperienced Obama is. He is just a "Senator"
    Listen to this conversation and tell me what you think: Howard Stern - 1/10/2008 - Sal Interviews "Obama Supporters" in Harlem.


    Put it this way: if someone is going to have an abortion, sex before marriage, anything immoral in a country where it is illegal, they will do it anyway. Just look at Egypt.

    don't compare Egypt to USA. Why are you outside Egypt??!!!

    That can't be a reason to NOT PASS laws that are against these wrong things..

  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=7283.msg96672#msg96672]
    Listen to this conversation and tell me what you think: Howard Stern - 1/10/2008 - Sal Interviews "Obama Supporters" in Harlem.


    You wanna know what I think? I listened to it. I think it shows americans are stupid. We knew that already, and I can give you 100's of links where it is proven that americans are not so smart.

    But so what? You need to select a leader based on his policies.

    McCain is anti-abortion, but pro-Illegal war. What does that tell you?
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7283.msg96674#msg96674 date=1225735411]
    McCain is anti-abortion, but pro-Illegal war. What does that tell you?


    who said is that an "illegal" war?!!

    The congress didn't think so....the American people didn't think so, now you come and tell me that it's an "illegal" war. HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A COUNTRY CARRY ON AN ILLEGAL WAR.

    THAT WAR was necessarily. At the time, but it's just a failing one. All we need now is someone to end it RIGHT. McCain's policy is to stay there and "FINISH THE JOB" not to stay there forever.
    Unlike the democrats who are saying they will immediately remove the troops out of Iraq (which i think cannot be done as easy as they think of it) , which would leave hell to light up more and more and new place for terrorists groups to be formed (not that there isn't).
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=7283.msg96675#msg96675 date=1225736412]
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7283.msg96674#msg96674 date=1225735411]
    McCain is anti-abortion, but pro-Illegal war. What does that tell you?


    who said is that an "illegal" war?!!

    The congress didn't think so....the American people didn't think so, now you come and tell me that it's an "illegal" war. HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A COUNTRY CARRY ON AN ILLEGAL WAR.

    THAT WAR was necessarily. At the time, but it's just a failing one. All we need now is someone to end it RIGHT. McCain's policy is to stay there and "FINISH THE JOB" not to stay there forever.
    Unlike the democrats who are saying they will immediately remove the troops out of Iraq (which i think cannot be done as easy as they think of it) , which would leave hell to light up more and more and new place for terrorists groups to be formed (not that there isn't).


    Wow if this is the 'war on Iraq' discussion all over again, then there is a lot I can say about it, but I'll try to keep it short.
    It was an illegal war, let me explain to you how that works: Bush says he has proof that Iraq had weapons of mass distruction and ties with Alqaeda, he had no substantial proof for any of those claims, THE WHOLE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY with the expetion of a few states were against the war, that's a lot more that THE AMERICAN PEOPLE who don't have such a good reputation around the world anymore concerning their ability to judge after re-electing that incompetent president of theirs for a second term...
    Another reason Bush gave for the war, was the fact that he was going to spread freedom and democracy... do I really have to comment on that??? Isn't it obvious Bush didn't go through all that trouble because he is such a decent caring man who wanted to rescue the people of Iraq... Isn't it obvious that there were many people who benefitted from the war, and it's those people (weapons, oil companies..) whom Bush was serving all along???

    Any objective, logic person would come to the conclusion that the war was not waged for anything except the benefit of certain people in America, but at what cost??? How many lives were lost (on both sides)? Look at the chaos? How much money was lost?
    The risk for another war in Iran? Where is freedom and democracy? Did they have to start a new conflict, weren't there many conflicts in that area already that they could have worked to solve?

    By the way: How many African countries are in need of freedom of democracy, now why didn't the all holy Bush go and free those??? What a coincidence that the 'divine' voice telling him to go to war, told him to go to one of the biggest oil producers in the world???

    Come on, most Americans nowadays admit they were mislead and wrong in supporting Bush (oh yes, even some republicans..).

    And look at the countries who really have weapons of mass distruction, oh let's say Israel for example, now I don't know about you, but I don't feel so safe knowing Israel has atom bombs... yet somehow, no one in America is critisizing Israel... hmmm, doesn't that strike you as a tad strange...

    Please try to look at the whole picture (meaning listen to more than CNN) and then judge whether the war was illegal or not...

    I'm sorry, I couldn't keep it short after all but there is just too much to say about this issue
  • Its an illegal war because the UN inspectors told you there were no WMDs. You envaded Iraq based on the premise that Saddam had WMDs.

    You have no UN backing. Ministers in the UK have resigned because it is an illegal war. There are millions of people who want Tony Blair tried in the Hague for this war, as well as Bush.

    Millions of Americans are voting for Obama ONLY because he was against the war.

    Bush's only reasoning for the war was based on the verse: "Do unto others before they do it unto you".

    If Saddam is accused of killing 10,000 of his countrymen, then the US led invasion is accused of killing 700,000 at least of their countrymen. You invaded Iraq to help the Iraqi's??? I don't know if you watch the news, but 100,000 Iraqis last month marched in the streets of Baghdad to protest against the US military being in their country AND against the invasion.

    Mina, watch the interview between Obama and Rice over the war in Iraq on youtube. America is in the wrong over this war. If it had reason to attack Iraq, France, Spain, Denmark, Norway etc would have helped the US. But instead, you went in alone and asked for support from Italy and Turkey.
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7283.msg96677#msg96677 date=1225739225]
    Its an illegal war because the UN inspectors told you there were no WMDs. You envaded Iraq based on the premise that Saddam had WMDs.

    You have no UN backing. Ministers in the UK have resigned because it is an illegal war. There are millions of people who want Tony Blair tried in the Hague for this war, as well as Bush.

    Millions of Americans are voting for Obama ONLY because he was against the war.

    Bush's only reasoning for the war was based on the verse: "Do unto others before they do it unto you".

    If Saddam is accused of killing 10,000 of his countrymen, then the US led invasion is accused of killing 700,000 at least of their countrymen. You invaded Iraq to help the Iraqi's??? I don't know if you watch the news, but 100,000 Iraqis last month marched in the streets of Baghdad to protest against the US military being in their country AND against the invasion.

    Mina, watch the interview between Obama and Rice over the war in Iraq on youtube. America is in the wrong over this war. If it had reason to attack Iraq, France, Spain, Denmark, Norway etc would have helped the US. But instead, you went in alone and asked for support from Italy and Turkey.



    I am not saying that it is still a "GOOD" thing. What I am saying is that it was right at the time......

    Now, again, to just leave it and get out without fixing it is more evil than than the reason it was taken over to start with. It's that simple.
  • Mina,

    In Europe, we consider those that voted for Bush strange. Then we considered them stupid when we realised they voted for this man TWICE.

    That's all of us in Europe. There are no exceptions. Its the general consensus.

    THe war in Iraq was illegal. The reasons for going to war were wrong. The reasons for continuing the war was wrong.

    Bush admitted that although there were no WMD's, it was better to "do unto others before they do it unto you". What kind of policy is that?

    I'm going to kill you because you look suspicious and that you could one day kill me.

    Mina, if you voted for Bush twice, then keep this between us.
  • thank you all 4 giving me an understanding of what u believe versus my mother. let God choose the right person 4 the job.
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7283.msg96679#msg96679 date=1225745388]
    Mina,

    In Europe, we consider those that voted for Bush strange. Then we considered them stupid when we realised they voted for this man TWICE.

    That's all of us in Europe. There are no exceptions. Its the general consensus.

    THe war in Iraq was illegal. The reasons for going to war were wrong. The reasons for continuing the war was wrong.

    Bush admitted that although there were no WMD's, it was better to "do unto others before they do it unto you". What kind of policy is that?

    I'm going to kill you because you look suspicious and that you could one day kill me.

    Mina, if you voted for Bush twice, then keep this between us.


    This is what imean exactly......
    First ur in Europe......who cares about what u say here. Especially in France who refused to help in the war.
    Second every American knows that voting for bush was a must because there was no way in this world John karry would of made a better president them him.

    This is exactly what I mean by choosing the best of the worst!!!!!
  • Minagir,

    The war was most definitely illegal - if you would like im more than happy to send you an essay I did on the topic whilst i did my masters in international law. QT_PA_2T is correct in what he said - more than being illegal, the war is also immoral the logic behind it is twisted.

    Second, in the eyes of the rest of the world the United States has lost so much respect since Bush came to power. So much of the world hates America today and it's easy to see why. Some estimates have put the Iraqi dead at 2 million! Not to mention American disregard for the rest of the world and the arrogance in US foreign policy.

    As for the election, well it's clear that Obama will win in a landslide. Suggestions that he is a Muslim and will try and implement Sharia are absurd and groundless. I cant believe people are still talking about that issue, or would so hysterically try and attack his character.

    Anyway, hopefully the United States will recover her former glory in the internationl community and became a respected state in the international community. It will certainly require a lot of damage to repair the immense damage Bush is responsible for, but with new leadership anything is a possibility.
  • If Obama loses, he will lose only due to his race, period.If he were white, the polls would suggest otherwise. The idea that he is a musilm, inexperienced , etc is simply dumb. We have seen what those who claim to be expereinced have done . He has declared his faith in Christ in public.That is what counts. But, so what if he is a muslim? What is wrong with that? I thought, the dirty republican lies was aimed to deceive the most ignorant.The Americans are not buying those lies anymore.

    Almost all US papers are endorsing Obama,not to mention that some of them never endorsed a democrat candidate since 75 years.Many republicans are flowing to him, not because he opposed the war in Iraq, but because he is the smartest and visionary candidate the US had since JF kennedy.

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