In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
Do you think the protestants shout being filled with the Holy Spirit in truth? pls they r just acting a drama in which the devil is the writer of the play. St. Elizabeth, The mother of the holiest prophet, St. John, have praised St. Mary being filled with the True Holy Spirit. Truly when a person is filled with the Spirit of God, automatically will love and praise, honour the Saints. I know Jesus through the flesh of St. Mary. You and me have not chosen her but God Himself. From the birth of Christ, The hard times in the desert of Eygypt, 3 and half years when He teaches till that painful Friday St. Mary was with God. Jesus on The Holy Cross has handed her to us as a Mother becasue He knows we sinners need her prayers and her protection as a mother. Unfortunately, these people have ripped off the honour of St. Mary, Holy Angles denying all the glory God has given them. Because they are nothing but of the devil. There is no Holy Spirit who does not honour the Saints. All our early Fathers have honoured St. Mary and all The Saints and believe in the power of their prayer in interceding for the sinners, us. Who are these people to create a new thing? All of a sudden God has changed His mind concerning them? Infact God has not revealed to us the True honour of His Mother and His Holy Angels, All Saints. We sense the fraction. We praise a drop out of an ocean. They have thrown away all the early writings of The Holy Fathers of The Church so that we will not shut their mouth with their clear writings. How can anyone believe that God is behind these people? The God who commands us to honour our parents does not care to honour His especial mother and His Holy Angels and Saints? Then who is behind all this evil heresy? as far as I know there are only 2 powers that are rivals. One is Good and the other is evil. If they are not of God then automatically they are of evil. They interpret The Holy Bible just as they wish. They are of the group who worship God by their mouth saying Lord...Jesus is Lord! 24 times a day but does not do His will. They deny the power of The Holy Sacrament and its True Nature. They say, believe and you will be saved. But it is clearly written that Faith without Works is dead. So just let us not make it as two friends making peace after a quarrel. There are really many issues over which we will be heading East and West. Many things we can be identified as white and dark. May God always help us in everything with the fervent prayers of St. Mary and His Holy Angels, Saints. Amen!!!
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
I happened to read some articles on the web browsing and wished to share it with you. How the Catholic saints do not qualify to be as real Siants as ours.
One of the great Catholic saints is Francis of Assisi (13th century). His spiritual mentality is revealed through the following facts. Once Francis prayed for a long time (the subject of his prayer is very indicative) "about two mercies": "The first is … that I can go through all the sufferings that You, O Sweetest Jesus, have gone through in Your excruciating passions. And the second mercy… is that I could feel the infinite love, with which you, Son of God, were burning." As we see, Francis was concerned not about the feeling of being sinful, but he openly claimed for equality with Christ! During this prayer Francis "felt absolutely turned into Jesus", Whom he saw at once as a six-winged Seraph, striking him with firing arrows at the points of cross wounds of Jesus Christ (hands, feet and the right side). After this vision painful bleeding wounds (stigmata) appeared - the traces of "Jesus' passions" (M.V.Lodyzhensky. Invisible light. - Pg. 1915. - P.109).
The nature of such stigmata is well-known in psychiatry: permanent concentration of attention on the Christ's passions excites nerves and psyche of a person and may cause such effect after long exercise. There is grace-giving in it, because in such compassion with Christ there is no true love, about which the Lord directly said: He who has my commandments, and keeps them, he is the one who loves me (Joh.14:21). That is why substitution of struggle with one's old man by imaginary emotions of "compassion" is one of the gravest mistakes in the spiritual life, who leads many ascetics to self-conceit, pride - to apparent spiritual deceit accompanied by direct mental disorder (comp. Francis's "sermons" to birds, wolf, turtle-doves, snakes, flowers, his awe of fire, stones, worms).
The goal of life set by Francis is also very indicative: "I laboured and want to labour further…, for it brings honour" (St. Francis of Assisi. - M., Izd.Frantsiskantsev, 1995. - P.145). Francis wishes to suffer for the others and atone their sins (P.20). And at the end of his life he frankly said: "I do not know any transgression of mine that I have not atoned by confession and repentance" (M.V.Lodyzhensky. - p.129). All this testifies for his not seeing his sins, i.e. his total spiritual blindness.
For comparison I'll describe to you a moment from life of St. Sisoi the Great (5th century). "Just before his death, surrounded by the brethren, when Sisoi looked like talking with invisible ones, to the question "Father, tell us, whom are you talking with?" he said: "The angels have come to take me, but I pray to them that they let me stay here for a short time for repentance". Knowing that Sisoi was perfect in virtues the brethren objected to him: "Father, you have no need in repentance", and Sisoi answered like this: "Verily, I do not know, if I have at least started the cause of my repentance" (Lodyzhensky. - p.133). This deep understanding, sight of one's imperfection is the main distinctive trait of all true saints.
One more illustration of the idea of sanctity in Catholicism is Teresa of Lisieux (Teresa the Little, or Teresa of the Child Jesus), who died in the age of 23, and in 1997 marking the 100th anniversary of her death John Paul II by his "infallible" decision declared her to be one more Doctor of the Ecumenical Church. Here are a few quotations from spiritual autobiography of Teresa "Story of one soul", expressively testifying her spiritual state (Story of one soul // Symbol. 1996, No.36. - Paris. - P.151).
"In an interview before taking the veil I revealed what I was going to do in Karmela: I have come to save souls, and first of all to pray for the priests" (to save not herself, but others!).
Speaking about her unworthiness she adds: "I invariably keep a bold hope to become a great saint… I thought I was born for glory and looked for the ways to achieve it. And then the Lord, our God… let me know that my glory would not be revealed to judgment of a mortal, and the essence of it is I will be a great saint!!!" (comp. Macarius the Great, whom people called "earthly god" for the rear highness of his life, prayed: "O God, cleanse me, a sinner, for I have never done anything good in Thy sight"). Later Teresa wrote even more frankly: "In the heart of my Mother-Church I will be Love… through this I will become everything… and my dream will come true!!!"
Mystical experience of one of the pillars of the Catholic mystics, founder of the Jesuits Order Ignatius Loyola (16th century) was also based on the methodical development of imagination.
His book "Spiritual exercise", which has enormous authority with the Catholics, calls a Christian to imagining and contemplating the Holy Trinity, Christ, Mother of God, angels, etc. All this fundamentally contradicts the foundations of the spiritual feats of the saints of the Ecumenical Church, for it leads the faithful to the total spiritual and mental disorder.
An authoritative collection of ascetic writings of the ancient Church "The Dobrotolubie" ("The Philokalia") strictly forbids this kind of "spiritual exercise". Here are a few quotations from it.
Saint Nilus of Sinai (5th century) warns: "Do not desire to see sensually Angels or Virtues, or Christ, otherwise you'll go mad taking a wolf for the shepherd and bowing to demon-enemies" (St.Nilus of Sinai. 153 Chapters on Prayer. Ch.115 // The Dobrotolubie: In 5 volumes. V.2. 2nd edition. - M., 1884. - p. 237).
St. Simeon the New Theologian (11th century) reasoning about those who "imagine heavenly blessings, angel hosts and abodes of saints" in prayer definitely says "this is a sign of prelest" (spiritual deceit). "Going this way even those who see light with their bodily eyes, smell fragrance with their nose, hear voices with their ears and the like get seduced (St. Simeon the New Theologian. On three forms of prayer // The Dobrotolubie. V.5. M., 1990. p.463-464).
St. Gregory the Sinaite (14th century) reminds: "Never accept things when you see something sensual or spiritual, inside or outside, even if it has an image of Christ or an angel or a certain saint… The one who accepts it easily gets seduced… God does not resent one being attentive to himself, if one fearing to get seduced does not accept what He gives,… but rather praises him as a wise one" (St. Gregory the Sinaite. Hesyhast instruction // same. - p.224).
Unfortunately, the Catholic church has lost the art to distinguish the spiritual from the sensual, and sanctity from reveries, and thus also Christianity from paganism.
Alexey Osipov
18 / 03 / 04
Lecture of A.I.Osipov on the Fundamentals of Theology, held in the Sretenskaya Theological seminary on September 13, 2000.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=7184.msg95440#msg95440 date=1223793321] [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=7184.msg95424#msg95424 date=1223786733] We shouldnt use music to make us happy in the liturgy, the happiness should come from and ONLY from the presence of God in the liturgy. When we sing, we are singing to God, not singing to get everyone into the liturgy NO, not at all.
I disagree with that very very strongly. The thing is, if that was true, we would not chant anything in the mass, we would just say it. To God, whether something is said or sung is completely irrelevant. Let's not make a shallow person out of God, He doesn't care how we praise Him, just that we do. I firmly believe that the tunes are there for US. Music has an incredible effect on a person's mood and how they feel about something. You know 'Je Nai Nan'? Try just saying the words without a tune. Then sing it with the tune and compare how you felt. Music is a way of helping US praise God, so it is (indirectly) a form of worship if you get my meaning.
I dont undertsand though why you would dissagree, perhaps i didnt make myself clear enough. I am not againt nice music in the church, Im against nice music being used to attract the audience. Look at hymns, they are beautiful and even the words though mostly quotes from the bible there is such a great meaning in the words. But than when you compare hymns to some songs from the protestant church, it honestly doesnt look like the protestants are singing to God but rather to themselves. They all start clapping and jumping, its no more than a rock concert. Do you think when Jesus and his disciples sang hymns they clapped and jumped? No because the effect of Gods presents effects a mans heart and mind. The effect of nice music effects a mans body and mood, as we see is being done with all types of music including RAP. Protestant churches even have christian rap, now this was my point exactly, that Im not against christian rap or rock or whatever, as long as its OUTSIDE the church, once you introduce music like that in the liturgy the FOCUS is not even the WORDS being used in the song, but the BEAT of the drums and guitar, and people begin going to church for the songs. I remember abouna anthony spoke about this, and he said, in the protestant church they have different attractions, some churches will play rock music and they'l get all the "rockers" to come to their church, others will a different type of music and therefore attract another type of person. In the end, you end up going to the church that YOU prefer. Is there not only 1 Church, 1 Body of Christ? Why than do we need to split up to worship God? Why are we going to different churches? Because the type of music were listening to DURING the liturgy is based on what WE WANT. Why is it the Orthodox Church sings the same hymns week after week after week? Because when we sing the same hymn, were not focusing on how nice the hymn sounds, but the meaning of the words in the Hymn, and the words are about Christ, so how can we ever get "bored" of singing about the Lord?
I just recently read something written by a protestant woman, and she said she left her church because 1 of the reasons was they kept singing the same songs over and over. She wanted something new, WHY? Because the focus of the protestant churches songs is the attract people, not to sing to God.
OKay the focu for them is to atrract God. Rite? But, what about us? WHat i f we sing them for praise? We are all humans. because we are orthodox and we are right does not mean we should be arrogant and claim we are the best. That is like being ethnocentric. The song itself is not wrong as others said. It is the way you use it yourself....
Hallo, BinC. I can`t understand, why you say such things about saints,... .
For example, when St. Francis preached to the birds,... it`s because of the purity of his heart. It`s like Adam&Eve-they had good releationship with all animals in paradise.(A Bishop explained that to me.)
What you write break my heart, because i never thought, that a (true) christian could write like this about a saint(s). (Please forgive me if i wrote something false-it`s not my original language.)
May God be kinder to you on judgement day, then you are now to his saints,... . Please pray for me&please forgive me if i hurt you.
I agree and disagree with some of the posts posted here. I listen to these types of music all the time!! that doesn't mean i don't listen to alhan!! as a matter of fact i like alhan better! but to me some of the protestent/catholic songs make me cry sometimes, becuz of the meaning behind the words. there are some songs that make u relize, " I am such a huge sinner look wut God did for me!" some of them have a huge meaning behind them u just need to listen and feel the words. it isn't just singing them. u guys r right it is to praise God, but in my opinion it is to praise God and to sometimes realize wut ur doing or to actually realize wut God did for us. sometimes we 4get wut God did for us, sometimes we always put Him aside.
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Dear Mariaat,
First of all I am sorry if I offened you in any way. The article was not meant to break your heart but to show you the Truth. The article just compares ORTHODOX and CATHOLIC SAINTS based on Truth. It is has NO intention to disgrace His Holy Saints if you CLEARLY AND HONESTLY read the article. It was comparing Francis of Assisi versus St. Sisoi the Great Second Teresa of Lisieux versus St. Macarius the Great Did you find any false accusation in the article? "The Truth hurts". You said, may God be kinder to you. I know I am always nothing without His mercy. I posted this article to honour His real Saints( Orthodox Saints), St. Sisoi the Great and St. Macarius the Great and to show the differences we have in the idea of sanctity. The Saints I honoured will stand by my side on the day of Judgement.
May God be with us always with the fervent intercession of His Holiest Mother, Holy Angels, All His Saints. Amen!!!
You seem to have a real axe to grind when it comes to any Chruch except the Oriental Orthodox. You seem to think that God has left those Churches and remains only with us. You've attacked their saints, you've called them all heretics. Seriously man, you're doing God a great injustice to suggest that He is so cruel as to completely desert millions of sincere believers just because of some politically motivated split that happened hundreds of years ago and was carried out by about 5 people.
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95495#msg95495 date=1223891224] Do you think the protestants shout being filled with the Holy Spirit in truth? pls they r just acting a drama in which the devil is the writer of the play. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then who is behind all this evil heresy? as far as I know there are only 2 powers that are rivals. One is Good and the other is evil. If they are not of God then automatically they are of evil.
To suggest that the Devil is the one behind these chruches is a bit far I think. They may have strayed in certain areas, but if its possible for non-Christians to enter Heaven, then how the heck can you say that Protestants and Catholics won't. To say on top of that, that the driving force behind them is the devil is very unrealistic. I just read the verse today (I don't know the exact reference - its in the chapter after the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew though...) about how one knows a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is good, the tree must be good, if the fruit is bad, so is the tree. Look at the fruit of the Protestant Church. Look at the fruit of the Catholic Church. Look closely and honestly. Talk to a Protestant person, talk to a Catholic person, listen to them pray and praise God. If you can come back here and honestly say "This is the Devil's work." I will give you a hundred bucks. (I'm just kidding mind you :P)
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95495#msg95495 date=1223891224] So just let us not make it as two friends making peace after a quarrel. There are really many issues over which we will be heading East and West. Many things we can be identified as white and dark.
Don't say that! Its only too late if we give up! They haven't given up on us and we will not give up on them. I cannot see an official union of the Chruches any time soon, but until then, we can at least act like the One Chruch Jesus Himself instituted when He was here. For His sake, in our day to day lives we can act as though we were one church with them.
I mostly agree with binC. Most Catholics + Protestants and such have lost their true Christian nature, most of them are not really Catholic or Protestant, but rather take the name as one and then go about on their daily lives as non-religious. I go to a Catholic school and we have daily Prayers over the loudspeaker, and allot of people often swear or make a joke out of it, during prayer. I think it may be different with Real Catholics though, but generally their Church is rather accepting over many issues. And yeh, their Saints don't seem to be REAL Saints, i completely agree with you binC, rather they are ordinary Christians who want to see, although i think they are abit too public about it. For a Coptic Saint, we wouldn't know about the Saint until he actually becomes a Saint (i think after 50 years? after death?) But within the Catholic church they'll just ordain any Christian a saint, i reckon Pope John Paul II will be a Catholic saint soon.
I see we've lost focus on the real discussion that was intended by mahreal. To be honest, both sides are wrong in this arguement, BinC, don't judge so that you are not judged. epchoic_nai_nan, same to you. One maybe defending and the other attacking but both of you have passed judgement and neither of you can back it up since neither of you are God. The fact is there are MANY differences between us and catholics as well as protestants. All that we know is that we have been handed down a faith unchanged and that we right(in faith, not actions of course). There may very well be protestants and catholics that are 100X better than any of us on here(I'm sure at least me) But to say that others are simply wrong because we are right is not for us to judge, leave that to God, Lets worry about our own faith first before we decide who is going to hell and who is going to heaven.
My comment has been made: I think it is wrong to say that the Devil is behind the Protestants and Catholics because I'm sure they say the same about us and if we both say it and believe it, we'll never be whole again. I don't think they are in the right, they believe a lot that is wrong, on that point we all agree. That's the summary of what I meant to say, but I apologise if I came on too strong which I think I may have. So BinC I hope I haven't offended you at all?
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!! Dear Friends,
I want to share with you this
History of St Dioscorus - Theopiste CHAPTER 17 - 20
About eight months after the preceding vision, the first day of the month of Tomouz (July) there was another vision which I will tell you of now. “I have seen this night my father holy Cyril standing before me, with a crowd of bishops whom I did not know. He told me their names and I heard that he said to the first, “Our father Alexander, and you also, our great Athanasius, bless my son Dioscorus who was father of the Church”. He also named Ignatius, and said to him, “Blessed Ignatius, God-filled, I know that it is your feast today, but I desire that you come and bless my son”. And I saw the radiant Ignatius place his hand on the head of a small child and say to him, “Severus, come see your fathers and imitate their actions. Come kiss the feet of the pilots of the Church, such as Alexander, imitate Athanasius and the theologians like Cyril. Suffer for God as I and my father Ignatius, and follow the example of the holy and persecuted Dioscorus. You will not fall into error, even if you begin to suffer from persecution today. As for you Dioscorus, write to your son Timothy to occupy your See because in two months and four days you will come to me”.
Such was this vision, and, since that day, this saint of God, Dioscorus, fell ill and wrote a letter to the inhabitants of Alexandria that they should consecrate Timothy as Archbishop.
20. When Father Paphnutius left us to go to Egypt, my father called us, myself and the Archdeacon Peter, and said to us, “Theopiste, my son, after my death leave Peter with my body and save yourself, for a great danger will threaten you”. And two days before his departure we heard him say, “If there should be only one day left to me on earth, I would not cease worshipping and blessing you, O Our Lord Jesus Christ, true God”. And after this day, at the first hour of the night, we heard a voice which said, “Behold, I have come, Severus”. We asked him who this Severus was?
“This one”, he told us, “was the bishop of Gabala”. And he said to me, “Why are you weeping, my children?” We replied, “Because you are leaving us orphans”. He responded to us, “Do not weep for that, because God will not abandon you. Weep rather for your brethren who will succeed you, because the end is coming. There will be nothing good after you, only a curse, contempt, universal devastation and stain. [flash=200,200]http://Only among those in Egypt and in East Syria will the true faith remain, and the rest of the world will be occupied by the teaching of the devil.[/flash] After a certain time, when the altars which are in Egypt have been destroyed, then the son of perdition will reveal himself to all the world and there will be misfortune in the world when he reveals himself”. After these words he kept silent, and when the hour arrived to deliver his soul to God, he prayed in these terms, “ O God, my Saviour, help me in this hour of anguish; that those who come seeking my soul, to separate it from the body, may not frighten, and that those who test me (will judge me) may not come after me because even if I had been only one day on the earth, I would not be free from sin, and that those who guard paradise might not prevent me from entering. Those who come after me, Lord, are the spirits free from all sin, but me, I inhabit a body filled with sin. That those who have no sin may not be cruel to me, to me who, on the contrary, ……, that the river of fire which flows before you may not reach me. That the guardians of the gate of your Grandeur may not prevent me, O Perfection, from reaching you. Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”.
He spoke and gave up his soul to God at eleven at night on the fourth of the month of Elul (September). We buried his holy body with honour, accompanied by the songs of the Holy Spirit. We completed the sacrifice over him according to the rite and participated in the Holy Mysteries. We placed his holy body in a coffin and carried it to his city.
And two months after his death holy Peter sent me a letter, “Go, flee and hide yourself”. Because when the heretics learned of the death of our holy father Dioscorus the Patriarch, they told the Emperor that the silver and gold of the Church was hidden with me. I remembered the prophetic words of my father on this subject, a great peril will come to you. Immediately I went to the city of Pentapolis, there I hid myself, and wrote this history of our father Dioscorus, holy in all things, Archbishop of Alexandria.
I testify before God that I have written the truth, and you should believe, my brothers, that I have not written all the wonders, all the healings and all the miracles that God worked through the hands of this holy martyr for the truth because there are too many.
Lord God Almighty, help us and have pity on us, grant us a pleasant end and permit us to see you face to face on the day of right judgement, through the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and of this saint, and of all the saints. Amen.
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
I commited some mistakes on my earlier post so I needed to correct it. Hope you would not mind if I waste some web papers. epchois_nai_nan ...no ill feelings:)
I wanted to share this writing taken from the life of St Dioscorus
History of St Dioscorus - Theopiste CHAPTER 17 - 20
About eight months after the preceding vision, the first day of the month of Tomouz (July) there was another vision which I will tell you of now. “I have seen this night my father holy Cyril standing before me, with a crowd of bishops whom I did not know. He told me their names and I heard that he said to the first, “Our father Alexander, and you also, our great Athanasius, bless my son Dioscorus who was father of the Church”. He also named Ignatius, and said to him, “Blessed Ignatius, God-filled, I know that it is your feast today, but I desire that you come and bless my son”. And I saw the radiant Ignatius place his hand on the head of a small child and say to him, “Severus, come see your fathers and imitate their actions. Come kiss the feet of the pilots of the Church, such as Alexander, imitate Athanasius and the theologians like Cyril. Suffer for God as I and my father Ignatius, and follow the example of the holy and persecuted Dioscorus. You will not fall into error, even if you begin to suffer from persecution today. As for you Dioscorus, write to your son Timothy to occupy your See because in two months and four days you will come to me”.
Such was this vision, and, since that day, this saint of God, Dioscorus, fell ill and wrote a letter to the inhabitants of Alexandria that they should consecrate Timothy as Archbishop.
20. When Father Paphnutius left us to go to Egypt, my father called us, myself and the Archdeacon Peter, and said to us, “Theopiste, my son, after my death leave Peter with my body and save yourself, for a great danger will threaten you”. And two days before his departure we heard him say, “If there should be only one day left to me on earth, I would not cease worshipping and blessing you, O Our Lord Jesus Christ, true God”. And after this day, at the first hour of the night, we heard a voice which said, “Behold, I have come, Severus”. We asked him who this Severus was?
“This one”, he told us, “was the bishop of Gabala”. And he said to me, “Why are you weeping, my children?” We replied, “Because you are leaving us orphans”. He responded to us, “Do not weep for that, because God will not abandon you. Weep rather for your brethren who will succeed you, because the end is coming. There will be nothing good after you, only a curse, contempt, universal devastation and stain. Only among those in Egypt and in East Syria will the true faith remain, and the rest of the world will be occupied by the teaching of the devil. After a certain time, when the altars which are in Egypt have been destroyed, then the son of perdition will reveal himself to all the world and there will be misfortune in the world when he reveals himself”. After these words he kept silent, and when the hour arrived to deliver his soul to God, he prayed in these terms, “ O God, my Saviour, help me in this hour of anguish; that those who come seeking my soul, to separate it from the body, may not frighten, and that those who test me (will judge me) may not come after me because even if I had been only one day on the earth, I would not be free from sin, and that those who guard paradise might not prevent me from entering. Those who come after me, Lord, are the spirits free from all sin, but me, I inhabit a body filled with sin. That those who have no sin may not be cruel to me, to me who, on the contrary, ……, that the river of fire which flows before you may not reach me. That the guardians of the gate of your Grandeur may not prevent me, O Perfection, from reaching you. Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”.
He spoke and gave up his soul to God at eleven at night on the fourth of the month of Elul (September). We buried his holy body with honour, accompanied by the songs of the Holy Spirit. We completed the sacrifice over him according to the rite and participated in the Holy Mysteries. We placed his holy body in a coffin and carried it to his city.
And two months after his death holy Peter sent me a letter, “Go, flee and hide yourself”. Because when the heretics learned of the death of our holy father Dioscorus the Patriarch, they told the Emperor that the silver and gold of the Church was hidden with me. I remembered the prophetic words of my father on this subject, a great peril will come to you. Immediately I went to the city of Pentapolis, there I hid myself, and wrote this history of our father Dioscorus, holy in all things, Archbishop of Alexandria.
I testify before God that I have written the truth, and you should believe, my brothers, that I have not written all the wonders, all the healings and all the miracles that God worked through the hands of this holy martyr for the truth because there are too many.
Lord God Almighty, help us and have pity on us, grant us a pleasant end and permit us to see you face to face on the day of right judgement, through the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and of this saint, and of all the saints. Amen.
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”.St Dioscorus
okayy did anybody read this??[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7184.msg95520#msg95520 date=1223920939] OKay the focus for them is to atrract God. Rite? But, what about us? WHat i f we sing them for praise? We are all humans. because we are orthodox and we are right does not mean we should be arrogant and claim we are the best. That is like being ethnocentric. The song itself is not wrong as others said. It is the way you use it yourself....
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
because we are orthodox and we are right does not mean we should be arrogant and claim we are the best. mahraeel said this. Telling the truth is one thing. In order to show that we r the best it takes to bring forth the defects of others. I don't think we have to hide the Truth lest others might be ashamed or feel bad. This is not about attacking people personally. This is about defending about our Faith. Our Church is whole. I would never sneak into other Churches for songs or anything. In the first place their songs are not songs but music. It remains in the flesh. The devil himself calls the name of God. The Lord himself told us that they will come calling His Holy Name. We r not going to be fooled just b/c they call the name of Jesus. We r told to discern spirits. The devil himself can turn himself into an angel of light. I will not sing their songs or will participate in anything with them. As an Orthodox we r not arrogant. Actually the protestants are the arrogant ones who do not give the honour they owe to the holiest mother of God. They are the ones who are filled with pride who rejected the prayers of intercession from The holy angels and saints. They do not listen to any voice of the true saints. They have kept far away all the writings of the early holy fathers. They interpret the Holy Bible by themselves because they think they know better than the early fathers. This is a real arrogance. This is the pride of the devil. I am sorry but I will not Listen to their songs b/c it is just a reflection of their evil thoughts. Thanks God, my Church is not poor to give me real songs. Even if there is no song in the Orthodox Church. I will not listen to their songs. I have nothing to share with someone who knows No honour for the Mother of God.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=7184.msg95515#msg95515 date=1223917412] I dont undertsand though why you would dissagree, perhaps i didnt make myself clear enough. I am not againt nice music in the church, Im against nice music being used to attract the audience.
But that's the thing...what I'm saying is, that's exactly why we have our tunes. The music isn't directly a praise to God. This is going to sound horribly wrong and I'm sure many people will misunderstand it, but I can't think of a better way to express it: for all intents and purposes, God is deaf. That's why its just as meaningful to him when I sing hymns with my wavering, out of tune voice as it is when a Mo'alem is singing with a beautiful voice. That's why its all the same to him whether we use the Daf or not. I think SUPERMAN said a few pages back that Ep Ouro is actually a Pagan tune, I've heard from others too. See! We must be heretics! Singing a Pagan tune in the Church of God! How awful! And yet, we are not struck down with lightning bolts whenever we sing Ep Ouro, because God doesn't care!
So what I'm trying to get to is, the tunes aren't there for Him, they're there for us! To, believe it or not...attract an audience. (awkward silence...lol). Think about it, these tunes are traditional yeah? They stylistically very similar to what Egyptian music was like, maybe even going all the way back to the Pharaohs time. So, when the Church was instituted in Egypt, this was the music style that Egyptians were used to. The music they liked. The style they would sing in. The style they would play at parties. POPULAR MUSIC. (gasp) Obviously the tunes adopted to the Mass were selected carefully, to make sure they are appropriate, but the point is. They used those tunes in particular so that the congregation would feel at home, like they were praising God THEIR way. Which is exactly what we do! We worship God OUR way, with our traditional Egyptian tunes!
And that in essence, is what the Protestants do! They worship God THEIR way! And the fact is, we don't have enough evidence to say that it is not sincere. Talk all you want about the Devil influence and Hillsong and whatnot, but in the end, when Protestants sing Shout to the Lord on Sunday, they bear their souls and worship God in a way I am sure He loves. I mean what would you say to the African Orthodox Church (who we're in Communion with by the way) who dance IN THE CHURCH! That's right, they dance inside the Church, I think even during the services. Dancing is part of African culture, they are praising God the African way, we praise God the Egyptian way, Protestants praise God the Western way. The thing is, whatever faults the Protestants may have theologically, has nothing to do with their music style which is the crux of what I'm trying to get to. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PROTESTANT SONGS! They are not heretical, they are not from the Devil, they're not a threat to our own traditions...they just sound different.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=7184.msg95712#msg95712 date=1224143869] So what I'm trying to get to is, the tunes aren't there for Him, they're there for us! To, believe it or not...attract an audience. (awkward silence...lol). Think about it, these tunes are traditional yeah? They stylistically very similar to what Egyptian music was like, maybe even going all the way back to the Pharaohs time. So, when the Church was instituted in Egypt, this was the music style that Egyptians were used to. The music they liked. The style they would sing in. The style they would play at parties. POPULAR MUSIC. (gasp) Obviously the tunes adopted to the Mass were selected carefully, to make sure they are appropriate, but the point is. They used those tunes in particular so that the congregation would feel at home, like they were praising God THEIR way. Which is exactly what we do! We worship God OUR way, with our traditional Egyptian tunes!
That is not true, this tunes were not used at parties or festivals or whatever. These were the tunes they had already been using in their worship or rituals for the pharoahs. Epouro was used to recieve the new pharoah(the tune not words), Lahn el shami(pekethronos and avechnon) and Golgotha were used for the burial of the pharoah. These were not folk songs or what we would call today secular music. These tunes that we used had already been used to worship their pagan gods, so when they became christian, they found the tunes they had ALREADY been using for worship perfect for to praise their Creator.
However I do agree that the tunes are meant for us, not necessarily for God. Take all of Holy Week, they choose all mournful tunes to get the people in that kind of mood and choose longer tunes so that WE can meditate on the words that are being said. But i do disagree that they are not meant to attract people to the church, they are meant to inhance the feeling at church and aid people spiritually. Thats the problem I have, when we try to go out of our way to attract others, we either lose those who already were happy in the church, or we lose ourselves in the process. Yes protestant songs have nothing inherently wrong with them BUT my arguement is that they have no place whatsoever in our services, outside of church, during youth or whatever is at others discretion. I think we can all agree on that.
If u are praising God ur not suposed to look at the tune!! wut matters is the words ur saying. some of the protestant/ catholic songs have incredible words that could reach ur soul.
i have posted this before in this post. some of these songs make me cry becuz of the words. the words reach my soul. sometimes the songs make me relize of a mistake i have done. it makes me think about God. do u know wen u hear and u know that God is ur creator, father, best friend, etc? well sometimes we put God aside and think of our own needs. i know i do that sometimes. but some of these songs actually make me relize,"Wow God is Truely AMAZING!!!"
If u are praising God ur not suposed to look at the tune!! wut matters is the words ur saying. some of the protestant/ catholic songs have incredible words that could reach ur soul.
i have posted this before in this post. some of these songs make me cry becuz of the words. the words reach my soul. sometimes the songs make me relize of a mistake i have done. it makes me think about God. do u know wen u hear and u know that God is ur creator, father, best friend, etc? well sometimes we put God aside and think of our own needs. i know i do that sometimes. but some of these songs actually make me relize,"Wow God is Truely AMAZING!!!"
^^amen to that lol=)
sometimes eporo might not reach ur heart enuff. But maybe amazing grace will
If u are praising God ur not suposed to look at the tune!! wut matters is the words ur saying. some of the protestant/ catholic songs have incredible words that could reach ur soul.
i have posted this before in this post. some of these songs make me cry becuz of the words. the words reach my soul. sometimes the songs make me relize of a mistake i have done. it makes me think about God. do u know wen u hear and u know that God is ur creator, father, best friend, etc? well sometimes we put God aside and think of our own needs. i know i do that sometimes. but some of these songs actually make me relize,"Wow God is Truely AMAZING!!!"
^^amen to that lol=)
sometimes eporo might not reach ur heart enuff. But maybe amazing grace will
+mahraeel+
ur right mahraeel!! maybe our hymns might not reach deep enough to a person, but maybe one of these songs will!!
[quote author=He Wept link=topic=7184.msg95741#msg95741 date=1224202474] its kinda funny, because i was just listening to Our God is an Awesome God lol...
and in ECCYC 08... we sang that song about 5 times... and everyone was definetaly into it
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7184.msg95747#msg95747 date=1224209070] lol yeaa haha i didnt go but my friends said at eccyc they sang that song a billion times and made up signs for it haha lol...thxx regretful+sinner
+mahraeel+
ur welcome!!! i didn't go too!! and i also heard the same thing!!!!
Comments
Hey mabsoota btw his name is Abouna Antonios. The church is St. Bishoy's. Just thought I'd let you know ;)
Pray for me
Dear Friends,
Do you think the protestants shout being filled with the Holy Spirit in truth?
pls they r just acting a drama in which the devil is the writer of the play.
St. Elizabeth, The mother of the holiest prophet, St. John, have praised St. Mary being filled with the True Holy Spirit. Truly when a person is filled with the Spirit of God, automatically will love and praise, honour the Saints.
I know Jesus through the flesh of St. Mary. You and me have not chosen her but God Himself. From the birth of Christ, The hard times in the desert of Eygypt, 3 and half years when He teaches till that painful Friday St. Mary was with God.
Jesus on The Holy Cross has handed her to us as a Mother becasue He knows we sinners need her prayers and her protection as a mother.
Unfortunately, these people have ripped off the honour of St. Mary, Holy Angles denying all the glory God has given them. Because they are nothing but of the devil. There is no Holy Spirit who does not honour the Saints. All our early Fathers have honoured St. Mary and all The Saints and believe in the power of their prayer in interceding for the sinners, us. Who are these people to create a new thing? All of a sudden God has changed His mind concerning them? Infact God has not revealed to us the True honour of His Mother and His Holy Angels, All Saints. We sense the fraction. We praise a drop out of an ocean.
They have thrown away all the early writings of The Holy Fathers of The Church so that we will not shut their mouth with their clear writings.
How can anyone believe that God is behind these people? The God who commands us to honour our parents does not care to honour His especial mother and His Holy Angels and Saints?
Then who is behind all this evil heresy? as far as I know there are only 2 powers that are rivals. One is Good and the other is evil. If they are not of God then automatically they are of evil.
They interpret The Holy Bible just as they wish. They are of the group who worship God by their mouth saying Lord...Jesus is Lord! 24 times a day but does not do His will. They deny the power of The Holy Sacrament and its True Nature.
They say, believe and you will be saved. But it is clearly written that Faith without Works is dead.
So just let us not make it as two friends making peace after a quarrel. There are really many issues over which we will be heading East and West. Many things we can be identified as white and dark.
May God always help us in everything with the fervent prayers of St. Mary and His Holy Angels, Saints. Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
I happened to read some articles on the web browsing and wished to share it with you. How the Catholic saints do not qualify to be as real Siants as ours.
One of the great Catholic saints is Francis of Assisi (13th century). His spiritual mentality is revealed through the following facts. Once Francis prayed for a long time (the subject of his prayer is very indicative) "about two mercies": "The first is … that I can go through all the sufferings that You, O Sweetest Jesus, have gone through in Your excruciating passions. And the second mercy… is that I could feel the infinite love, with which you, Son of God, were burning." As we see, Francis was concerned not about the feeling of being sinful, but he openly claimed for equality with Christ! During this prayer Francis "felt absolutely turned into Jesus", Whom he saw at once as a six-winged Seraph, striking him with firing arrows at the points of cross wounds of Jesus Christ (hands, feet and the right side). After this vision painful bleeding wounds (stigmata) appeared - the traces of "Jesus' passions" (M.V.Lodyzhensky. Invisible light. - Pg. 1915. - P.109).
The nature of such stigmata is well-known in psychiatry: permanent concentration of attention on the Christ's passions excites nerves and psyche of a person and may cause such effect after long exercise. There is grace-giving in it, because in such compassion with Christ there is no true love, about which the Lord directly said: He who has my commandments, and keeps them, he is the one who loves me (Joh.14:21). That is why substitution of struggle with one's old man by imaginary emotions of "compassion" is one of the gravest mistakes in the spiritual life, who leads many ascetics to self-conceit, pride - to apparent spiritual deceit accompanied by direct mental disorder (comp. Francis's "sermons" to birds, wolf, turtle-doves, snakes, flowers, his awe of fire, stones, worms).
The goal of life set by Francis is also very indicative: "I laboured and want to labour further…, for it brings honour" (St. Francis of Assisi. - M., Izd.Frantsiskantsev, 1995. - P.145). Francis wishes to suffer for the others and atone their sins (P.20). And at the end of his life he frankly said: "I do not know any transgression of mine that I have not atoned by confession and repentance" (M.V.Lodyzhensky. - p.129). All this testifies for his not seeing his sins, i.e. his total spiritual blindness.
For comparison I'll describe to you a moment from life of St. Sisoi the Great (5th century). "Just before his death, surrounded by the brethren, when Sisoi looked like talking with invisible ones, to the question "Father, tell us, whom are you talking with?" he said: "The angels have come to take me, but I pray to them that they let me stay here for a short time for repentance". Knowing that Sisoi was perfect in virtues the brethren objected to him: "Father, you have no need in repentance", and Sisoi answered like this: "Verily, I do not know, if I have at least started the cause of my repentance" (Lodyzhensky. - p.133). This deep understanding, sight of one's imperfection is the main distinctive trait of all true saints.
One more illustration of the idea of sanctity in Catholicism is Teresa of Lisieux (Teresa the Little, or Teresa of the Child Jesus), who died in the age of 23, and in 1997 marking the 100th anniversary of her death John Paul II by his "infallible" decision declared her to be one more Doctor of the Ecumenical Church. Here are a few quotations from spiritual autobiography of Teresa "Story of one soul", expressively testifying her spiritual state (Story of one soul // Symbol. 1996, No.36. - Paris. - P.151).
"In an interview before taking the veil I revealed what I was going to do in Karmela: I have come to save souls, and first of all to pray for the priests" (to save not herself, but others!).
Speaking about her unworthiness she adds: "I invariably keep a bold hope to become a great saint… I thought I was born for glory and looked for the ways to achieve it. And then the Lord, our God… let me know that my glory would not be revealed to judgment of a mortal, and the essence of it is I will be a great saint!!!" (comp. Macarius the Great, whom people called "earthly god" for the rear highness of his life, prayed: "O God, cleanse me, a sinner, for I have never done anything good in Thy sight"). Later Teresa wrote even more frankly: "In the heart of my Mother-Church I will be Love… through this I will become everything… and my dream will come true!!!"
Mystical experience of one of the pillars of the Catholic mystics, founder of the Jesuits Order Ignatius Loyola (16th century) was also based on the methodical development of imagination.
His book "Spiritual exercise", which has enormous authority with the Catholics, calls a Christian to imagining and contemplating the Holy Trinity, Christ, Mother of God, angels, etc. All this fundamentally contradicts the foundations of the spiritual feats of the saints of the Ecumenical Church, for it leads the faithful to the total spiritual and mental disorder.
An authoritative collection of ascetic writings of the ancient Church "The Dobrotolubie" ("The Philokalia") strictly forbids this kind of "spiritual exercise". Here are a few quotations from it.
Saint Nilus of Sinai (5th century) warns: "Do not desire to see sensually Angels or Virtues, or Christ, otherwise you'll go mad taking a wolf for the shepherd and bowing to demon-enemies" (St.Nilus of Sinai. 153 Chapters on Prayer. Ch.115 // The Dobrotolubie: In 5 volumes. V.2. 2nd edition. - M., 1884. - p. 237).
St. Simeon the New Theologian (11th century) reasoning about those who "imagine heavenly blessings, angel hosts and abodes of saints" in prayer definitely says "this is a sign of prelest" (spiritual deceit). "Going this way even those who see light with their bodily eyes, smell fragrance with their nose, hear voices with their ears and the like get seduced (St. Simeon the New Theologian. On three forms of prayer // The Dobrotolubie. V.5. M., 1990. p.463-464).
St. Gregory the Sinaite (14th century) reminds: "Never accept things when you see something sensual or spiritual, inside or outside, even if it has an image of Christ or an angel or a certain saint… The one who accepts it easily gets seduced… God does not resent one being attentive to himself, if one fearing to get seduced does not accept what He gives,… but rather praises him as a wise one" (St. Gregory the Sinaite. Hesyhast instruction // same. - p.224).
Unfortunately, the Catholic church has lost the art to distinguish the spiritual from the sensual, and sanctity from reveries, and thus also Christianity from paganism.
Alexey Osipov
18 / 03 / 04
Lecture of A.I.Osipov on the Fundamentals of Theology, held in the Sretenskaya Theological seminary on September 13, 2000.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=7184.msg95424#msg95424 date=1223786733]
We shouldnt use music to make us happy in the liturgy, the happiness should come from and ONLY from the presence of God in the liturgy. When we sing, we are singing to God, not singing to get everyone into the liturgy NO, not at all.
I disagree with that very very strongly. The thing is, if that was true, we would not chant anything in the mass, we would just say it. To God, whether something is said or sung is completely irrelevant. Let's not make a shallow person out of God, He doesn't care how we praise Him, just that we do. I firmly believe that the tunes are there for US. Music has an incredible effect on a person's mood and how they feel about something. You know 'Je Nai Nan'? Try just saying the words without a tune. Then sing it with the tune and compare how you felt. Music is a way of helping US praise God, so it is (indirectly) a form of worship if you get my meaning.
I dont undertsand though why you would dissagree, perhaps i didnt make myself clear enough. I am not againt nice music in the church, Im against nice music being used to attract the audience. Look at hymns, they are beautiful and even the words though mostly quotes from the bible there is such a great meaning in the words. But than when you compare hymns to some songs from the protestant church, it honestly doesnt look like the protestants are singing to God but rather to themselves. They all start clapping and jumping, its no more than a rock concert. Do you think when Jesus and his disciples sang hymns they clapped and jumped? No because the effect of Gods presents effects a mans heart and mind. The effect of nice music effects a mans body and mood, as we see is being done with all types of music including RAP. Protestant churches even have christian rap, now this was my point exactly, that Im not against christian rap or rock or whatever, as long as its OUTSIDE the church, once you introduce music like that in the liturgy the FOCUS is not even the WORDS being used in the song, but the BEAT of the drums and guitar, and people begin going to church for the songs. I remember abouna anthony spoke about this, and he said, in the protestant church they have different attractions, some churches will play rock music and they'l get all the "rockers" to come to their church, others will a different type of music and therefore attract another type of person. In the end, you end up going to the church that YOU prefer. Is there not only 1 Church, 1 Body of Christ? Why than do we need to split up to worship God? Why are we going to different churches? Because the type of music were listening to DURING the liturgy is based on what WE WANT. Why is it the Orthodox Church sings the same hymns week after week after week? Because when we sing the same hymn, were not focusing on how nice the hymn sounds, but the meaning of the words in the Hymn, and the words are about Christ, so how can we ever get "bored" of singing about the Lord?
I just recently read something written by a protestant woman, and she said she left her church because 1 of the reasons was they kept singing the same songs over and over. She wanted something new, WHY? Because the focus of the protestant churches songs is the attract people, not to sing to God.
+mahraeel+
I can`t understand, why you say such things about saints,... .
For example, when St. Francis preached to the birds,... it`s because of the purity of his heart.
It`s like Adam&Eve-they had good releationship with all animals in paradise.(A Bishop explained that to me.)
What you write break my heart, because i never thought, that a (true) christian could write like this about a saint(s).
(Please forgive me if i wrote something false-it`s not my original language.)
May God be kinder to you on judgement day, then you are now to his saints,... .
Please pray for me&please forgive me if i hurt you.
Dear Mariaat,
First of all I am sorry if I offened you in any way. The article was not meant to break your heart but to show you the Truth.
The article just compares ORTHODOX and CATHOLIC SAINTS based on Truth. It is has NO intention to disgrace His Holy Saints if you CLEARLY AND HONESTLY read the article.
It was comparing Francis of Assisi versus St. Sisoi the Great
Second Teresa of Lisieux versus St. Macarius the Great
Did you find any false accusation in the article? "The Truth hurts".
You said, may God be kinder to you. I know I am always nothing without His mercy. I posted this article to honour His real Saints( Orthodox Saints), St. Sisoi the Great and St. Macarius the Great and to show the differences we have in the idea of sanctity.
The Saints I honoured will stand by my side on the day of Judgement.
May God be with us always with the fervent intercession of His Holiest Mother, Holy Angels, All His Saints. Amen!!!
You seem to have a real axe to grind when it comes to any Chruch except the Oriental Orthodox. You seem to think that God has left those Churches and remains only with us. You've attacked their saints, you've called them all heretics. Seriously man, you're doing God a great injustice to suggest that He is so cruel as to completely desert millions of sincere believers just because of some politically motivated split that happened hundreds of years ago and was carried out by about 5 people.
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95495#msg95495 date=1223891224]
Do you think the protestants shout being filled with the Holy Spirit in truth?
pls they r just acting a drama in which the devil is the writer of the play.
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Then who is behind all this evil heresy? as far as I know there are only 2 powers that are rivals. One is Good and the other is evil. If they are not of God then automatically they are of evil.
To suggest that the Devil is the one behind these chruches is a bit far I think. They may have strayed in certain areas, but if its possible for non-Christians to enter Heaven, then how the heck can you say that Protestants and Catholics won't. To say on top of that, that the driving force behind them is the devil is very unrealistic. I just read the verse today (I don't know the exact reference - its in the chapter after the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew though...) about how one knows a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is good, the tree must be good, if the fruit is bad, so is the tree. Look at the fruit of the Protestant Church. Look at the fruit of the Catholic Church. Look closely and honestly. Talk to a Protestant person, talk to a Catholic person, listen to them pray and praise God. If you can come back here and honestly say "This is the Devil's work." I will give you a hundred bucks. (I'm just kidding mind you :P)
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95495#msg95495 date=1223891224]
So just let us not make it as two friends making peace after a quarrel. There are really many issues over which we will be heading East and West. Many things we can be identified as white and dark.
Don't say that! Its only too late if we give up! They haven't given up on us and we will not give up on them. I cannot see an official union of the Chruches any time soon, but until then, we can at least act like the One Chruch Jesus Himself instituted when He was here. For His sake, in our day to day lives we can act as though we were one church with them.
Most Catholics + Protestants and such have lost their true Christian nature, most of them are not really Catholic or Protestant, but rather take the name as one and then go about on their daily lives as non-religious.
I go to a Catholic school and we have daily Prayers over the loudspeaker, and allot of people often swear or make a joke out of it, during prayer.
I think it may be different with Real Catholics though, but generally their Church is rather accepting over many issues.
And yeh, their Saints don't seem to be REAL Saints, i completely agree with you binC, rather they are ordinary Christians who want to see, although i think they are abit too public about it. For a Coptic Saint, we wouldn't know about the Saint until he actually becomes a Saint (i think after 50 years? after death?)
But within the Catholic church they'll just ordain any Christian a saint, i reckon Pope John Paul II will be a Catholic saint soon.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness,
My comment has been made: I think it is wrong to say that the Devil is behind the Protestants and Catholics because I'm sure they say the same about us and if we both say it and believe it, we'll never be whole again. I don't think they are in the right, they believe a lot that is wrong, on that point we all agree. That's the summary of what I meant to say, but I apologise if I came on too strong which I think I may have. So BinC I hope I haven't offended you at all?
Pray for me
I want to share with you this
History of St Dioscorus - Theopiste
CHAPTER 17 - 20
About eight months after the preceding vision, the first day of the month of Tomouz (July) there was another vision which I will tell you of now. “I have seen this night my father holy Cyril standing before me, with a crowd of bishops whom I did not know. He told me their names and I heard that he said to the first, “Our father Alexander, and you also, our great Athanasius, bless my son Dioscorus who was father of the Church”. He also named Ignatius, and said to him, “Blessed Ignatius, God-filled, I know that it is your feast today, but I desire that you come and bless my son”. And I saw the radiant Ignatius place his hand on the head of a small child and say to him, “Severus, come see your fathers and imitate their actions. Come kiss the feet of the pilots of the Church, such as Alexander, imitate Athanasius and the theologians like Cyril. Suffer for God as I and my father Ignatius, and follow the example of the holy and persecuted Dioscorus. You will not fall into error, even if you begin to suffer from persecution today. As for you Dioscorus, write to your son Timothy to occupy your See because in two months and four days you will come to me”.
Such was this vision, and, since that day, this saint of God, Dioscorus, fell ill and wrote a letter to the inhabitants of Alexandria that they should consecrate Timothy as Archbishop.
20. When Father Paphnutius left us to go to Egypt, my father called us, myself and the Archdeacon Peter, and said to us, “Theopiste, my son, after my death leave Peter with my body and save yourself, for a great danger will threaten you”. And two days before his departure we heard him say, “If there should be only one day left to me on earth, I would not cease worshipping and blessing you, O Our Lord Jesus Christ, true God”. And after this day, at the first hour of the night, we heard a voice which said, “Behold, I have come, Severus”. We asked him who this Severus was?
“This one”, he told us, “was the bishop of Gabala”. And he said to me, “Why are you weeping, my children?” We replied, “Because you are leaving us orphans”. He responded to us, “Do not weep for that, because God will not abandon you. Weep rather for your brethren who will succeed you, because the end is coming. There will be nothing good after you, only a curse, contempt, universal devastation and stain. [flash=200,200]http://Only among those in Egypt and in East Syria will the true faith remain, and the rest of the world will be occupied by the teaching of the devil.[/flash] After a certain time, when the altars which are in Egypt have been destroyed, then the son of perdition will reveal himself to all the world and there will be misfortune in the world when he reveals himself”.
After these words he kept silent, and when the hour arrived to deliver his soul to God, he prayed in these terms, “ O God, my Saviour, help me in this hour of anguish; that those who come seeking my soul, to separate it from the body, may not frighten, and that those who test me (will judge me) may not come after me because even if I had been only one day on the earth, I would not be free from sin, and that those who guard paradise might not prevent me from entering. Those who come after me, Lord, are the spirits free from all sin, but me, I inhabit a body filled with sin. That those who have no sin may not be cruel to me, to me who, on the contrary, ……, that the river of fire which flows before you may not reach me. That the guardians of the gate of your Grandeur may not prevent me, O Perfection, from reaching you. Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”.
He spoke and gave up his soul to God at eleven at night on the fourth of the month of Elul (September). We buried his holy body with honour, accompanied by the songs of the Holy Spirit. We completed the sacrifice over him according to the rite and participated in the Holy Mysteries. We placed his holy body in a coffin and carried it to his city.
And two months after his death holy Peter sent me a letter, “Go, flee and hide yourself”. Because when the heretics learned of the death of our holy father Dioscorus the Patriarch, they told the Emperor that the silver and gold of the Church was hidden with me. I remembered the prophetic words of my father on this subject, a great peril will come to you. Immediately I went to the city of Pentapolis, there I hid myself, and wrote this history of our father Dioscorus, holy in all things, Archbishop of Alexandria.
I testify before God that I have written the truth, and you should believe, my brothers, that I have not written all the wonders, all the healings and all the miracles that God worked through the hands of this holy martyr for the truth because there are too many.
Lord God Almighty, help us and have pity on us, grant us a pleasant end and permit us to see you face to face on the day of right judgement, through the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and of this saint, and of all the saints. Amen.
Dear Friends,
I commited some mistakes on my earlier post so I needed to correct it. Hope you would not mind if I waste some web papers.
epchois_nai_nan ...no ill feelings:)
I wanted to share this writing taken from the life of St Dioscorus
History of St Dioscorus - Theopiste
CHAPTER 17 - 20
About eight months after the preceding vision, the first day of the month of Tomouz (July) there was another vision which I will tell you of now. “I have seen this night my father holy Cyril standing before me, with a crowd of bishops whom I did not know. He told me their names and I heard that he said to the first, “Our father Alexander, and you also, our great Athanasius, bless my son Dioscorus who was father of the Church”. He also named Ignatius, and said to him, “Blessed Ignatius, God-filled, I know that it is your feast today, but I desire that you come and bless my son”. And I saw the radiant Ignatius place his hand on the head of a small child and say to him, “Severus, come see your fathers and imitate their actions. Come kiss the feet of the pilots of the Church, such as Alexander, imitate Athanasius and the theologians like Cyril. Suffer for God as I and my father Ignatius, and follow the example of the holy and persecuted Dioscorus. You will not fall into error, even if you begin to suffer from persecution today. As for you Dioscorus, write to your son Timothy to occupy your See because in two months and four days you will come to me”.
Such was this vision, and, since that day, this saint of God, Dioscorus, fell ill and wrote a letter to the inhabitants of Alexandria that they should consecrate Timothy as Archbishop.
20. When Father Paphnutius left us to go to Egypt, my father called us, myself and the Archdeacon Peter, and said to us, “Theopiste, my son, after my death leave Peter with my body and save yourself, for a great danger will threaten you”. And two days before his departure we heard him say, “If there should be only one day left to me on earth, I would not cease worshipping and blessing you, O Our Lord Jesus Christ, true God”. And after this day, at the first hour of the night, we heard a voice which said, “Behold, I have come, Severus”. We asked him who this Severus was?
“This one”, he told us, “was the bishop of Gabala”. And he said to me, “Why are you weeping, my children?” We replied, “Because you are leaving us orphans”. He responded to us, “Do not weep for that, because God will not abandon you. Weep rather for your brethren who will succeed you, because the end is coming. There will be nothing good after you, only a curse, contempt, universal devastation and stain. Only among those in Egypt and in East Syria will the true faith remain, and the rest of the world will be occupied by the teaching of the devil. After a certain time, when the altars which are in Egypt have been destroyed, then the son of perdition will reveal himself to all the world and there will be misfortune in the world when he reveals himself”.
After these words he kept silent, and when the hour arrived to deliver his soul to God, he prayed in these terms, “ O God, my Saviour, help me in this hour of anguish; that those who come seeking my soul, to separate it from the body, may not frighten, and that those who test me (will judge me) may not come after me because even if I had been only one day on the earth, I would not be free from sin, and that those who guard paradise might not prevent me from entering. Those who come after me, Lord, are the spirits free from all sin, but me, I inhabit a body filled with sin. That those who have no sin may not be cruel to me, to me who, on the contrary, ……, that the river of fire which flows before you may not reach me. That the guardians of the gate of your Grandeur may not prevent me, O Perfection, from reaching you. Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”.
He spoke and gave up his soul to God at eleven at night on the fourth of the month of Elul (September). We buried his holy body with honour, accompanied by the songs of the Holy Spirit. We completed the sacrifice over him according to the rite and participated in the Holy Mysteries. We placed his holy body in a coffin and carried it to his city.
And two months after his death holy Peter sent me a letter, “Go, flee and hide yourself”. Because when the heretics learned of the death of our holy father Dioscorus the Patriarch, they told the Emperor that the silver and gold of the Church was hidden with me. I remembered the prophetic words of my father on this subject, a great peril will come to you. Immediately I went to the city of Pentapolis, there I hid myself, and wrote this history of our father Dioscorus, holy in all things, Archbishop of Alexandria.
I testify before God that I have written the truth, and you should believe, my brothers, that I have not written all the wonders, all the healings and all the miracles that God worked through the hands of this holy martyr for the truth because there are too many.
Lord God Almighty, help us and have pity on us, grant us a pleasant end and permit us to see you face to face on the day of right judgement, through the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and of this saint, and of all the saints. Amen.
..............//...............
Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”. St Dioscorus
OKay the focus for them is to atrract God. Rite? But, what about us? WHat i f we sing them for praise? We are all humans. because we are orthodox and we are right does not mean we should be arrogant and claim we are the best. That is like being ethnocentric. The song itself is not wrong as others said. It is the way you use it yourself....
+mahraeel+
thanks lol more comments?
+mahraeel+
Dear Friends,
because we are orthodox and we are right does not mean we should be arrogant and claim we are the best. mahraeel said this.
Telling the truth is one thing. In order to show that we r the best it takes to bring forth the defects of others. I don't think we have to hide the Truth lest others might be ashamed or feel bad. This is not about attacking people personally. This is about defending about our Faith. Our Church is whole. I would never sneak into other Churches for songs or anything. In the first place their songs are not songs but music. It remains in the flesh.
The devil himself calls the name of God. The Lord himself told us that they will come calling His Holy Name. We r not going to be fooled just b/c they call the name of Jesus.
We r told to discern spirits. The devil himself can turn himself into an angel of light. I will not sing their songs or will participate in anything with them.
As an Orthodox we r not arrogant. Actually the protestants are the arrogant ones who do not give the honour they owe to the holiest mother of God. They are the ones who are filled with pride who rejected the prayers of intercession from The holy angels and saints.
They do not listen to any voice of the true saints. They have kept far away all the writings of the early holy fathers. They interpret the Holy Bible by themselves because they think they know better than the early fathers. This is a real arrogance. This is the pride of the devil.
I am sorry but I will not Listen to their songs b/c it is just a reflection of their evil thoughts. Thanks God, my Church is not poor to give me real songs. Even if there is no song in the Orthodox Church. I will not listen to their songs. I have nothing to share with someone who knows No honour for the Mother of God.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=7184.msg95515#msg95515 date=1223917412]
I dont undertsand though why you would dissagree, perhaps i didnt make myself clear enough. I am not againt nice music in the church, Im against nice music being used to attract the audience.
But that's the thing...what I'm saying is, that's exactly why we have our tunes. The music isn't directly a praise to God. This is going to sound horribly wrong and I'm sure many people will misunderstand it, but I can't think of a better way to express it: for all intents and purposes, God is deaf. That's why its just as meaningful to him when I sing hymns with my wavering, out of tune voice as it is when a Mo'alem is singing with a beautiful voice. That's why its all the same to him whether we use the Daf or not. I think SUPERMAN said a few pages back that Ep Ouro is actually a Pagan tune, I've heard from others too. See! We must be heretics! Singing a Pagan tune in the Church of God! How awful! And yet, we are not struck down with lightning bolts whenever we sing Ep Ouro, because God doesn't care!
So what I'm trying to get to is, the tunes aren't there for Him, they're there for us! To, believe it or not...attract an audience. (awkward silence...lol). Think about it, these tunes are traditional yeah? They stylistically very similar to what Egyptian music was like, maybe even going all the way back to the Pharaohs time. So, when the Church was instituted in Egypt, this was the music style that Egyptians were used to. The music they liked. The style they would sing in. The style they would play at parties. POPULAR MUSIC. (gasp) Obviously the tunes adopted to the Mass were selected carefully, to make sure they are appropriate, but the point is. They used those tunes in particular so that the congregation would feel at home, like they were praising God THEIR way. Which is exactly what we do! We worship God OUR way, with our traditional Egyptian tunes!
And that in essence, is what the Protestants do! They worship God THEIR way! And the fact is, we don't have enough evidence to say that it is not sincere. Talk all you want about the Devil influence and Hillsong and whatnot, but in the end, when Protestants sing Shout to the Lord on Sunday, they bear their souls and worship God in a way I am sure He loves. I mean what would you say to the African Orthodox Church (who we're in Communion with by the way) who dance IN THE CHURCH! That's right, they dance inside the Church, I think even during the services. Dancing is part of African culture, they are praising God the African way, we praise God the Egyptian way, Protestants praise God the Western way. The thing is, whatever faults the Protestants may have theologically, has nothing to do with their music style which is the crux of what I'm trying to get to.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PROTESTANT SONGS! They are not heretical, they are not from the Devil, they're not a threat to our own traditions...they just sound different.
So what I'm trying to get to is, the tunes aren't there for Him, they're there for us! To, believe it or not...attract an audience. (awkward silence...lol). Think about it, these tunes are traditional yeah? They stylistically very similar to what Egyptian music was like, maybe even going all the way back to the Pharaohs time. So, when the Church was instituted in Egypt, this was the music style that Egyptians were used to. The music they liked. The style they would sing in. The style they would play at parties. POPULAR MUSIC. (gasp) Obviously the tunes adopted to the Mass were selected carefully, to make sure they are appropriate, but the point is. They used those tunes in particular so that the congregation would feel at home, like they were praising God THEIR way. Which is exactly what we do! We worship God OUR way, with our traditional Egyptian tunes!
That is not true, this tunes were not used at parties or festivals or whatever. These were the tunes they had already been using in their worship or rituals for the pharoahs. Epouro was used to recieve the new pharoah(the tune not words), Lahn el shami(pekethronos and avechnon) and Golgotha were used for the burial of the pharoah. These were not folk songs or what we would call today secular music. These tunes that we used had already been used to worship their pagan gods, so when they became christian, they found the tunes they had ALREADY been using for worship perfect for to praise their Creator.
However I do agree that the tunes are meant for us, not necessarily for God. Take all of Holy Week, they choose all mournful tunes to get the people in that kind of mood and choose longer tunes so that WE can meditate on the words that are being said. But i do disagree that they are not meant to attract people to the church, they are meant to inhance the feeling at church and aid people spiritually. Thats the problem I have, when we try to go out of our way to attract others, we either lose those who already were happy in the church, or we lose ourselves in the process. Yes protestant songs have nothing inherently wrong with them BUT my arguement is that they have no place whatsoever in our services, outside of church, during youth or whatever is at others discretion. I think we can all agree on that.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
i have posted this before in this post. some of these songs make me cry becuz of the words. the words reach my soul. sometimes the songs make me relize of a mistake i have done. it makes me think about God. do u know wen u hear and u know that God is ur creator, father, best friend, etc? well sometimes we put God aside and think of our own needs. i know i do that sometimes. but some of these songs actually make me relize,"Wow God is Truely AMAZING!!!"
sometimes eporo might not reach ur heart enuff. But maybe amazing grace will
+mahraeel+
sometimes eporo might not reach ur heart enuff. But maybe amazing grace will
+mahraeel+
ur right mahraeel!! maybe our hymns might not reach deep enough to a person, but maybe one of these songs will!!
and in ECCYC 08... we sang that song about 5 times... and everyone was definetaly into it
its kinda funny, because i was just listening to Our God is an Awesome God lol...
and in ECCYC 08... we sang that song about 5 times... and everyone was definetaly into it
THAT IS GREAT!!! Happy u enjoyed it!!!
+mahraeel+
lol yeaa haha i didnt go but my friends said at eccyc they sang that song a billion times and made up signs for it haha lol...thxx regretful+sinner
+mahraeel+
ur welcome!!! i didn't go too!! and i also heard the same thing!!!!
+mahraeel+
+mahraeel+