Evangelisation to save our Church

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hi,

I was just listening to an interview with Father Kallistos Ware who was saying that one cannot expect the Russians to be sincere to their Church given the amount of evangelism from protestant & catholic missionaries going now to Russia. Well, I'm paraphrasing him, so its more or less what he said: that Russians will have "more choice". And, I can see that happening.

My question is: The protestant and catholic missionaries in Egypt are doing just that: they are taking Copts from our Churches and giving them protestantism. The protestant/evangelical population has increased tremendously in the Middle East (for statistics, just go to CNN), but basically, what IS the Coptic Church is doing to bring its own flock back to her?? And not only that... more importantly, to reach out to other Coptic Christians and bring them to her.

I have nothing against Catholics or Evangelicals, and if its a path that someone takes, I'm OK with it, but I feel that its a path chosen based on emotion: they feel perhaps more welcomed in the evangelical Church, or more "at home" there - or perhaps there's a certain speaker that has attracted them.

I think as other denominations are now increasing the pace to evangelise their faiths to Orthodox Christians, I become weary of the fact that our own Church is not evangelising (other than Africa!!). I mean, God bless and mulitply the efforts of H.G Anba Antonios Morcos et Anba Boulis, but - why aren't they also evangelising in Europe/America/ even Egypt - the same way they evangelise in Africa? As many Copts have now been "caught" by evangelical missionaries in the west and led astry from their own Churches.

Comments

  • I have a friend who is coptic, she has also become a protestant, she says she feels closer to God than ever... Whenever we talk about the Coptic Orthodox Church, the more i find out she really known NOTHING about our church which is what is most shocking to me, its like.. how to you leave your church when you havent even learned about it... She doesnt even know 1 hymn, she doesnt even understand doctrine as simple as intercession of saints. Even worse, SHE DOESNT EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PROTESTANTISM. I truly believe she is going to protestant church because they sing nice songs in which everyone can follow, and the preacher is loud and shouts to the crowd.. Just the whole atmosphere in a protestant church is, WERE SAVED HALLELUIAAA!!!! Whereas of the Liturgy in the Orthodox Church can be boring unless you learn the hymns and understand the liturgy, in that case you truly feel the presence of God during the Liturgy.

    I find that people find it easier to go to protestant Church because you dont have to put and effort to learn the songs whereas you have to learn MANY hymns in our Church.... And we have many traditions in which our preists dont take the time to explain, whereas protestants have no tradition.. So its just like you go hear a sermon listen to nice music, and go home.
  •   In the name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God. Amen.

    Hello dears,

    I really feel the same way about the situation. The first problem as u said arise from the fact that most of us don't know about our religion, The Oriental Orthodox Chruch.

    These protestants talk so often of Jesus but refuse to carry His Holy Cross.

    They say they r saved by grace but the bible says

        James 2 (King James Version)
    17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    They disgrace the importnace of priests but even God shows in the NT

    Matthew 8 (King James Version)
    4And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

    They don't even fast on Wed and Fri but we follow The Lord's words

    Matthew 4 (King James Version)
    4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    But God has warned long ago saying

    Matthew 24 (King James Version)
    11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    His followers the holy desciples also warn us of them

    Jude 1 (King James Version)
    17But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
    18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
    19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
    20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    We as an Oriental Orthodox Churchs we fear not as our hope is in God.

    Matthew 8 (King James Version)
    26And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

    May God protect our Holy Church from this evil for the sake of His Holiest Mother, St. Mary.
    Amen!





  • Im a big fan of religious freedom. If someone wants to be Catholic, protestant etc, its fine. But as i've read from the people below, its obvious that we are not reaching out to people. I think what people need , or what they are looking for is group prayers.

    Now, the Coptic Church does have this, but - its always at the mercy of the Amin-Il-Khedma. Abouna may or may not attend even. Who knows!?

    Because that is the main difference between us and Protestants: They have group prayer. Always.

    We have: Tasbeha --> Agpeya --> Vespers --> Liturgy --> and go home, no one talk to anyone until u meet again next week to go through the same routine.

    I've tried protestant prayer groups, catholic prayer groups, and I know the importance of prayer. It REALLY is important. I know the importance of group worship - praying together. Having Christian fellowship is vital.

    We lack in all these except prayer. There is nothing more wonderful than the Coptic Church's agenda for spiritual growth.

    But hey - if someone is protestant, what do I care, I just feel that its a HUGE shame that our congregation are going there WITHOUT even knowing ANYTHING about our Church.

    I think prayer groups and fellowship groups are vital. Really vital. I think its an area we should improve on.
  • In the name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!

    Hello Dear,

    You r a big fan. This is not about ur favourite football club. This is faith. There is a huge gap between these religions like there is between heaven and hell.

      Do u think all these religions spring up to give an option like a desert to pick what u like most?

    I tell u they r all poisons except ours. The devil is worshipped there in the name of Jesus. The real God is in the Oriental Orthodox Church. Please read all their heretical writings.

    Do u know that the devil knows the verses of The Bible better than u and me? but he uses it to rob and steal ur purest faith.

    John 10 (King James Version)
    10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    There is only one True Faith.

    Ephesians 4 (King James Version)
    5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    It is already written about them

    2 Peter 2 (King James Version)
    1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    I look forward to hearing from u soon.

    May God help us all to defend our Faith like those who died for it in the love of God. Our sword is heresy and our cross is a twisted commentary of The Holy Bible. We war against these evils today. Remember they will come like a wolf wearing a mask of sheep or disguising themselves. They will call the Lord's name now but The Lord will say to them at the judgment day " Depart from me...u called my name but have not done the will of The Father. " hope u will help me with the verses.
     
      Thank you in the name of our Lord and God, Jesus The Christ.
  • Hi QT.

    'Father' Kallistos Ware is actually a metropolitan, so I am not sure where you got that from.

    binC, you deserve applaud. Your post got it 100% :)
  • BinC,

    Why then are numerous[quote author=Severus link=topic=7034.msg93752#msg93752 date=1218555220]
    Hi QT.

    'Father' Kallistos Ware is actually a metropolitan, so I am not sure where you got that from.

    binC, you deserve applaud. Your post got it 100% :)


    Yes, the video I had said "metropolitan kallistos ware" - but, i thought u address Metropolitans as "fathers as well", except for the patriarche when u say "your holiness" ??

    Anyway, BinC - i think u r missing the point of this problem. Do u honestly believe that the protestant faith are considered false prophets??

    I doubt this. I was watching a protestant TV channel, and their contemplations on the Bible are quite interesting. Whether they get these contemplations/understandings from us, its quite irrelevant. Obviously, they do not have sacraments, and I'm sure many Coptic Christians are aware of that (those who attend Protestant Churches etc), but what they do have, seems to attract vast crowds of Copts - whether abroad or in Egypt - and surprisingly enough, Copts in Egypt seem to be particularly interested by such charismatic movements. Substantial numbers go to their prayer meetings and sermons.

    Jehova's Witnesses etc are for me false teachings, sure. But I doubt we can class evangelicals under the same category as them. There are teachings in the protestant Churches that I do find very wrong, but when I talk to Copts about such differences, they say they are aware, and just go and benefit from the things they know to be true. This "go and benefit" turns out to be a lifelong commitment to the protestant faith, with literally a clear separation to their Coptic Orthodox Church.

    But why? If people are aware of the differences, why then go there??

    We also have quite a large number of good charismatic speakers (i.e. Dr Nabil Baky, H. Holiness, we had Anba Beamen RIP etc).

    The weired thing is this, that drives me crazy is that Protestants are not in the slightest interested in our Church even knowing the differences. I.e. : they are not willing to take the good and leave what they do not like. They seem to dislike everything. Either that, or they are extremely content with their own faith.

    Metropolitan Kallistos was saying that they (Protestants/evangelicals etc) are well more advanced than the Orthodox in how they read the Bible. Not that we are deficient. I don't think he's saying that. But, he just sees the fact such churches focus on the Bible so much, whereas our "lifegiving source" is the Eucharist and the Liturgy.

    Can we have both? Is there anything in our Churches stopping us from insisting that Bible study BE an integral part of the Church way of life? Not all CoC's have Bible study groups for example during the week. Not all CoC's have prayer meetings/groups during the week either.

    If we had these things, do u think those who go to protestant churches on a daily basis would find themselves back in the CoC?

    I remember when abouna Daniel was active in Egypt. Those who used to go to his prayer meetings were nearly all Coptic. Now, he is the extreme example, as he's charismatic in his spirituality - not just his personality (u all know what I mean by this: he used to make people fall over etc).

    But why are Copts not satisfied with what they had???? I don't get that??

    The Pope's sermons are brilliant. I've heard anything more rewarding than his sermons - i'm really surprised that Coptic Egyptians (i.e. the Copts in Egypt) have not really utilised their churches.

    Perhaps what they need is fellowship ?? I don't know? I know in our Church, we have no fellowship. Coptic friends does not qualify as fellowship if all we do after the mass or during the week is go to bars and cafes and smoke water pipes. Does it?

    This is the only major difference that I can see.

  • Everyone that I know refers to metopolitans as 'His Eminence'. So, if you were dealing with them directly, you would say 'your eminence', just like when dealing with a bishop, you would say 'neyaftak'. You say 'Father [insert name here]' when referring to a priest.

    I don't understand why you think we don't have the Bible as a central source of the Church? In fact, it is...

    As far as people leaving the Coptic Orthodox Church for the other, 'fun' churches, they are doing it for the wrong reason. It is a bad situation, but what can we do? Make the Divine Liturgy a clap-fest? Accompany the Holy Psalmody with organ-playing and hitting people with the Bible in order to dispel demons? If we attempt to correct them, they will just leave faster. But if we leave them alone, they will end up going.

    This is where binC's verses come into play. We will just have to pray for them.
  • [quote author=Severus link=topic=7034.msg93757#msg93757 date=1218566896]
    Everyone that I know refers to metopolitans as 'His Eminence'. So, if you were dealing with them directly, you would say 'your eminence', just like when dealing with a bishop, you would say 'neyaftak'. You say 'Father [insert name here]' when referring to a priest.

    I don't understand why you think we don't have the Bible as a central source of the Church? In fact, it is...

    As far as people leaving the Coptic Orthodox Church for the other, 'fun' churches, they are doing it for the wrong reason. It is a bad situation, but what can we do? Make the Divine Liturgy a clap-fest? Accompany the Holy Psalmody with organ-playing and hitting people with the Bible in order to dispel demons? If we attempt to correct them, they will just leave faster. But if we leave them alone, they will end up going.

    This is where binC's verses come into play. We will just have to pray for them.


    Severus,

    I know the Bible is vital in our Church and is central. I'm not disputing that. But we don't have the following:

    * Bible study Groups
    * Prayer groups
    * Fellowship groups
    as they have in the protestant.

    Of course those that go to protestant for stuff like the new charismatic movement, then this is where I would agree with BinC: we are not going to start that. On the contrary, what attracts me as well as others is the fact that the CoC is spiritually sane.

    But - all I'm saying is that we do seem to be lacking in these areas. If you look at any CoC within the Diaspora, i'm sure you'll find the following activities:

    * Youth Conferences / NA/European etc.
    * Friday Meetings - Which can be good - but not all have them
    * Tasbeha on saturdays

    Other than that, I have never seen anything else. I think people want more than liturgies on Sunday. They want something on Monday, Tuesday, Wed.. etc. We don't have that. Do we?? If you do in your Church, great - tell me what do u have? What do u do?

    I know that my Church have prayer meetings but this is a private event. Its something outside the Church. They do it with a servant somewhere, and I believe this servant is very charismatic. The things he says/does, I do not entirely agree with. The fellowship is offered to those who go on this prayer meeting - but its not something anyone can go to. Its not part of the Church. Its outside.

    I think the youth are hungry and end up going to the Protestant Churches to get nourishment for when our Church is closed (which it is most of the time except Sundays and Saturday evening for Vespers).
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7034.msg93759#msg93759 date=1218572050]
    But we don't have the following:

    * Bible study Groups
    * Prayer groups
    * Fellowship groups
    as they have in the protestant.


    * Youth Conferences / NA/European etc.
    * Friday Meetings - Which can be good - but not all have them
    * Tasbeha on saturdays

    Other than that, I have never seen anything else. I think people want more than liturgies on Sunday. They want something on Monday, Tuesday, Wed.. etc. We don't have that. Do we?? If you do in your Church, great - tell me what do u have? What do u do?

    I know that my Church have prayer meetings but this is a private event. Its something outside the Church. They do it with a servant somewhere, and I believe this servant is very charismatic. The things he says/does, I do not entirely agree with. The fellowship is offered to those who go on this prayer meeting - but its not something anyone can go to. Its not part of the Church. Its outside.

    I think the youth are hungry and end up going to the Protestant Churches to get nourishment for when our Church is closed (which it is most of the time except Sundays and Saturday evening for Vespers).


    we all have these things and even more with the more churches and technology we are using. really.......there is always somthing in churches especially in the summers where youth are not doing mcuh.
    the only thing we don't have is what protestants say in those specific meetings.

    again, as Severus said, we will not transfrm our churchs and meetings into a "party" for Christ.....and we all know how protestants attract ppl thourgh that.

    protestants take away the part of KNOWNING GOD. they are like the muslims, as they say "Allah Sobhanoh wa Ta3loh". basiclly ur saying God is up there, He is mighty, and that's it. they worship Him with out KNOWING HIM.
  • Preaching is for people who don't know Christ all together. You can't "preach" to people who already know Christ and the Coptic Church and were Coptic but chose to leave it by their own will. Preaching is the basics of Christianity which all Christian Denominations have such as who is Christ, what did he do for us etc... A person who was Coptic but is now protestant will believe Jesus is God, he was crucified and died on the Cross for us, but he won't understand these theological differences between us and them.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=7034.msg93760#msg93760 date=1218573599]
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7034.msg93759#msg93759 date=1218572050]
    But we don't have the following:

    * Bible study Groups
    * Prayer groups
    * Fellowship groups
    as they have in the protestant.


    * Youth Conferences / NA/European etc.
    * Friday Meetings - Which can be good - but not all have them
    * Tasbeha on saturdays

    Other than that, I have never seen anything else. I think people want more than liturgies on Sunday. They want something on Monday, Tuesday, Wed.. etc. We don't have that. Do we?? If you do in your Church, great - tell me what do u have? What do u do?

    I know that my Church have prayer meetings but this is a private event. Its something outside the Church. They do it with a servant somewhere, and I believe this servant is very charismatic. The things he says/does, I do not entirely agree with. The fellowship is offered to those who go on this prayer meeting - but its not something anyone can go to. Its not part of the Church. Its outside.

    I think the youth are hungry and end up going to the Protestant Churches to get nourishment for when our Church is closed (which it is most of the time except Sundays and Saturday evening for Vespers).


    we all have these things and even more with the more churches and technology we are using. really.......there is always somthing in churches especially in the summers where youth are not doing mcuh.
    the only thing we don't have is what protestants say in those specific meetings.

    again, as Severus said, we will not transfrm our churchs and meetings into a "party" for Christ.....and we all know how protestants attract ppl thourgh that.

    protestants take away the part of KNOWNING GOD. they are like the muslims, as they say "Allah Sobhanoh wa Ta3loh". basiclly ur saying God is up there, He is mighty, and that's it. they worship Him with out KNOWING HIM.


    Do you have prayer meetings Mina?
    Do you have Bible study meetings??

    We had this once years ago in our Church.

    What I'm saying is - we do have them, but they are not consistent. Its at the disposal of the availability of the priest/Church servants who run them.

    In most churches, there are Friday meetings.. etc.. but.. i don't think this is a big deal like Bible Study, which I think is the reason why people end up going to Protestant as well as for the Christian fellowship.
  • I don't know where you are getting your information but in my church we have Bible studies all the time. But not everyweek, occasionally he will do a series of sermons on a book from the Bible. And the coptic church does not need prayer meetings, we pray at every gathering, every occasion, every ceremony ALL THE TIME. we don't need to dedicate a special meeting to just pray, what do you call liturgies? A show? NO of course not, the ENTIRE liturgy is praying. ALL of our services are prayers! what more do you want??
  • JY,

    I think the way people should take the CoC is that the liturgy and Eucharist is at the very heart of the Church. Its the source of strength for the Church. And as u said, it is all prayer. Perhaps if the mass during the weekdays was done in the evenings, and not so early in the morning, people could see that they could have some sort of fellowship in this.

    Its just, i don't know for u... but our church is closed all the week except for Saturdays and Sundays.
  • Dear QT,

    Pls don't be deceived by their group b/c there is no real love but it is lust of the flesh. They refused all instructions just to be free to do what they please. They don't have The Church, The Holy Communion. They despise dignitaries and don't know about intercession of Saints. They don't fast as we do.
    I will tell who they r. They r just a group created by the devil who walk against all the commandment and word of God. Following Christ without carrying His Cross is their inner motto. Call His name but never do His will is their real aim. Just as The Lord said...They will come like a sheep but they r wolves. They look like a sheep b/c they talk of The Bible. They r real wolves b/c they snatch the true children of God(sheep) out of The Church. Many will follow them b/c it is easier to jump at their meetings than pray like Angels at Liturgy.
    Dear, I would just want u to know that the difference b/n these churches with us is like the devil and God. I want u to read more on our differences based on the Dogma and Doctrine than simple ones like having group prayers.
    Their group prayer is a show, a threater, a drama. Believe me it is the devil who is playing games there. Just like an empty box makes the louder noise u will hear them from far and many will gather to look. But The Lord warned Don't go anywhere even if they tell u the Lord is here and there...
    May God help us to see how evil they r and to honor our Holy Worship which just like the Angles in the Heaven.
  • [quote author=binC link=topic=7034.msg93780#msg93780 date=1218637792]

    Their group prayer is a show, a threater, a drama.



    Funny enough, I was thinking that this morning when watching GOD TV. It is a theatre and drama show.

    But - there are some good speakers in the protestant churches such as Joyce Meyer.

    Now, what this boils down to is that we may be lacking in biblical activities in our church - outside the mass. I think the site: http://www.orthodoxsermons.com is brilliant if only they could get more sermons on there. I mean MUCH more.
  • there are currently over 1,200 sermons on the site and growing weekly so there is a wealth of information there as well as much more to be added. a version 2.0 is in the works which will have many more features but that is still quite a ways away so please pray for that project.

    http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=26
  • Dear QT PA 2T,
    I believe your concern for the Church is inspired by God. Please keep praying for renewal. As you have seen in the other posts, some Churches are doing well in this, others less so. Our abouna is passionate about sharing Christ with the non-Arabs (and non-Church-going Arabs) who live around us, and he transfers this passion to us during dars kitaab and during our informal chats and food after Church. We have the liturgy on the screen translated into English and everyone welcomes the newcomers and encourages them in their walk with God. There are week-day events too and we are always looking for new ways to share our faith.
    Please keep sharing and keep praying, pray for us too,
    rabina ma'ak
  • The only way to be saved is through evangelization.... The realization that salvation can not be assured through religion, which was the great mistake of the religious authorities of Jesus' day.  In order to see the kingdom of God you must be born again.  Receive Jesus Christ as the Lord of your life, and actually give Him Lordship over your life.  The blood of the lamb wiped away the sins of the world, but only to those who receive it. 

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  • I am no expert on the matter but I'd like to share some thoughts....

    Desertion from the parent church is a worldwide trend facing not just Orthodox churches but other mainstream denominations as well. Many faithful believers often wonder what must be done in this regard.

    However, we must realize that Orthodoxy has remained essentially unchanged to this day and must remain so, with regard to its doctrine and holy tradition which are non-negotiable. It has a cherished legacy right from the apostolic times and we must be faithful to it. Many of the converts to the 33,000+ denominations and their off-shoots are in it for the "feel good" factor which comes from the chief pastor's charisma or the all-accommodating permissive nature of that church that offers a comfort zone for one's shortcomings. Once the novelty wears off, they (new converts) are usually on the lookout for another group where they can fit in.

    Modern liberal and secular lifestyle has opened up a Pandora's box of sorts with its permissiveness and disdain for age old values, principles and traditions. If you look back in history, there have been more radical changes to man's lifestyle, faith, thought and behavior pattern during the last century than in all the previous centuries combined. The last 50 years esp. have been the most severe with its share of pitfalls - breakdown of family structure, acceptance of alternate lifestyles, substance abuse, lowering of moral standards, disrespect for authority, materialism and consumerism etc....Unfortunate people faced with these challenges and without proper spiritual guidance are left to fend for themselves, drift around for a while, then embrace a group that catches their fancy and gives them a false sense of security.

    While Orthodoxy has steadfastly held firm to time-tested values, many other churches, even mainstream ones are busy rewriting theirs, in blatant violation of Scripture - all in the name of being acceptable to the masses. We hear of rules being rewritten to accommodate women clergy, gay bishops and even convicted child molesters. Its a case of churches adapting to the people rather than the reverse. This is a herd mentality at work where people flock to feel accepted in a loose, undefined framework which accepts their current fad.Many pastors who preach the prosperity gospel have dubious reputations of financial and other improprieties and excesses.

    Orthodoxy has faced similar trials of desertion of its believers to heretics in the past and therefore must not be unduly worried about the migration of unbelievers. Quality rather than quantity should be the norm. By remaining unchanged is not to suggest being stuck in a time warp or being insensitive to people's needs. What we must hold firm without compromise is our faith, without betraying the cause for which many were martyred. To my thinking, Orthodoxy does not need to scream for attention, advertise on TV and solicit your "love gifts" like many evangelicals do. Its more for the quiet, contemplative types who are in it for the long haul.

    In addition to suggesting orthodoxsermons.org, I'd like to share some well written articles that I found online and should be interesting.

    http://www.antiochian.org/node/16917
    http://www.antiochian.org/node/16918
    http://www.antiochian.org/node/16914

    God bless,
    Paulos
  • [quote author=rpm link=topic=7034.msg98355#msg98355 date=1229346113]
    I am no expert on the matter but I'd like to share some thoughts....

    Desertion from the parent church is a worldwide trend facing not just Orthodox churches but other mainstream denominations as well. Many faithful believers often wonder what must be done in this regard.

    However, we must realize that Orthodoxy has remained essentially unchanged to this day and must remain so, with regard to its doctrine and holy tradition which are non-negotiable. It has a cherished legacy right from the apostolic times and we must be faithful to it. Many of the converts to the 33,000+ denominations and their off-shoots are in it for the "feel good" factor which comes from the chief pastor's charisma or the all-accommodating permissive nature of that church that offers a comfort zone for one's shortcomings. Once the novelty wears off, they (new converts) are usually on the lookout for another group where they can fit in.

    Modern liberal and secular lifestyle has opened up a Pandora's box of sorts with its permissiveness and disdain for age old values, principles and traditions. If you look back in history, there have been more radical changes to man's lifestyle, faith, thought and behavior pattern during the last century than in all the previous centuries combined. The last 50 years esp. have been the most severe with its share of pitfalls - breakdown of family structure, acceptance of alternate lifestyles, substance abuse, lowering of moral standards, disrespect for authority, materialism and consumerism etc....Unfortunate people faced with these challenges and without proper spiritual guidance are left to fend for themselves, drift around for a while, then embrace a group that catches their fancy and gives them a false sense of security.

    While Orthodoxy has steadfastly held firm to time-tested values, many other churches, even mainstream ones are busy rewriting theirs, in blatant violation of Scripture - all in the name of being acceptable to the masses. We hear of rules being rewritten to accommodate women clergy, gay bishops and even convicted child molesters. Its a case of churches adapting to the people rather than the reverse. This is a herd mentality at work where people flock to feel accepted in a loose, undefined framework which accepts their current fad.Many pastors who preach the prosperity gospel have dubious reputations of financial and other improprieties and excesses.

    Orthodoxy has faced similar trials of desertion of its believers to heretics in the past and therefore must not be unduly worried about the migration of unbelievers. Quality rather than quantity should be the norm. By remaining unchanged is not to suggest being stuck in a time warp or being insensitive to people's needs. What we must hold firm without compromise is our faith, without betraying the cause for which many were martyred. To my thinking, Orthodoxy does not need to scream for attention, advertise on TV and solicit your "love gifts" like many evangelicals do. Its more for the quiet, contemplative types who are in it for the long haul.

    In addition to suggesting orthodoxsermons.org, I'd like to share some well written articles that I found online and should be interesting.

    http://www.antiochian.org/node/16917
    http://www.antiochian.org/node/16918
    http://www.antiochian.org/node/16914

    God bless,
    Paulos



    Paulos,
    when I read this it made me think of a story in the OT I had read recently. I can't remember the chapters, but it is a familiar story: About when God asked his chosen one to take Israel to war, and there were many who volunteered to got to fight the war. God did not wish so many to go to war because He said it might make Israel full of vainglory. So God told his chosen one, to say to any who were afraid, to leave and 10,000 were left; but there were still too many! God decided to test them again and took them to a river to drink and said that whoever bent down and lapped the water like a dog would not be chosen to go to war, but whoever took the water up to their mouths with their hands would be chosen......and only 350 from the 10,000 were picked to go to war.
    We know these are times of "wars and rumors of wars". Spiritual and physical wars and maybe, once again only a few have been chosen to fight in the battle.

    [quote author=discerner link=topic=7034.msg98350#msg98350 date=1229335490]
    The only way to be saved is through evangelization.... The realization that salvation can not be assured through religion, which was the great mistake of the religious authorities of Jesus' day.  In order to see the kingdom of God you must be born again.  Receive Jesus Christ as the Lord of your life, and actually give Him Lordship over your life.  The blood of the lamb wiped away the sins of the world, but only to those who receive it. 

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    And, still in the NT Christ teaches us that we should be evangelists; sharing the good news of God's mercy, love and compassion with the world, because God wishes all His creation to be saved. We need to pray to God in Christ's name that He will send His Holy Spirit to us and show us all that we need to know to reach who we need to reach and pull from the fire of Hades. Amen

    Giving thanks and praises to our ever-mercifull Almighty God!!!
  • this is the story of Gideon in the book of Judges :)
  • To be honest, after reading all of this, I want to hear a protestant's views on this. I know that there are a lot on this site. Anyone willing to respond?
  • I'm going to say something and a lot of you will disagree, but I'll say it anyway, Evangelizing IS important, but it is not necessary for the survival of the Coptic Church, or any of the Sister Churches. If you believe that it is necessary for the Church's survival then you of little faith, need someone to evangelize to you because you don't know what orthodoxy is. Yes we MUST evangelize, we are told to go and preach to the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, so yes evangelizing is a must, but the church wont die without it.
  • It's not a matter of whether the Church will survive or not but will we personally be called to account for the lack of effort we made to bring people to our faith. One way is to lead a Godly life. I fail to impress others on this score.

    Meanwhile two hopeful gleanings;
    http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/zeve2008.htm ('Black Africans Join Orthodox Church')
    and
    www.suscopts.org/stmaryatlanta/evangelism/news.html

    The Coptic Church is certainly a missionary church but most people have never met Orthodoxy in any shape or form. How does that situation change?

    In Christ
  • Take a look at this: www.copticmission.org


    Also I had one small remark to make:

    Along with evangelization goes financial aid, building hospitals, schools, etc.

    Isn't it also possible thus, that some poeple might become coptic orthodox (or any other religion, such as Islam where people spend a lot of money to get more and more people in Africa to become muslims, and I have seen this with my own eyes)
    because of the aid they receive and not really because of the faith...

    PS I'm not saying that's the case, but just wondering about it, because that's what many non christians accuse us of doing, simply buying our way into having more believers,
    I personally don't agree but I was wondering what you guys thought...

    God bless you
  • hey, the mission web page was excellent. u should all check it out.

    aidan, i have an idea about spreading the church's mission that i didn't share before as i think i need help formulating the idea. in most counties that don't know about orthodoxy, most copts (and other orthodox) are not from the majority ethnic group. and lots of countries have cultural events when people from minority groups talk about their food, culture or religion. so, lots of copts are arabs living in non-arabic countries and they could have a stand giving out free samples of falaafel for example and  posters about the Christian faith and literature to distribute. other orthodox could also do this (for example armenian food is excellent!)
    coz what usually happens is that Christians assume Christianity is not a strange, interesting idea to those in developed countries, when in fact loads of british, american etc people have been 'immunised' against Christianity by loads of slightly religious people who are not really believers, but pitch up in church in order to look good. then it becomes clear that these people don't really believe the bible and they make the church look hypocritical, so the main population is not interested in the church. they go instead to cultural events and learn all about asian dancing, islam and buddism.
    so i think we're missing an opportunity here, so lets go out and meet people!
    may God lead us.
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