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Acceptance

gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
this was yet again prbly metnioned before and im sorry if im takin this off another thread
but i was yet again on wikipedia tihs morn (and i kno its not the most reliable source)
but i ran across an interesting page called were it compared the denomenations of Christianity and their views on
homosexuality

and for our closest relatives (the EO) it said
they accept homosexuals as members, but not as clergy, or as married couples

does any one know the stance of OO...


o and btw for the lutheran church i htink it says they accept them as long as they remain celibate

which is kinda preplexing but idk

Comments

  • SilentOneSilentOne
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=6065.msg80693#msg80693 date=1199218267]


    and for our closest relatives (the EO) it said
    they accept homosexuals as members, but not as clergy, or as married couples



    I'm not sure if that's correct; one of the Russian Orthodox saints, Saint Seraphim Rose (St.Seraphim of Sarov) was purported to be a homosexual, but gave that up to become a monk then ultimately a saint. I'm not sure if he would be considered clergy, but he's still an example of a religious man. I would think that the church accepts homosexuals so long as they do not act upon their lusts and try to fight it?
  • clayclay
    We must delineate between practicing homosexuals and those who have same-sex attraction. The former are on par with fornicators and adulterers. The latter if remaining calibrate and chaste are full members.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=SilentOne link=topic=6065.msg80703#msg80703 date=1199232150]
    I'm not sure if that's correct; one of the Russian Orthodox saints, Saint Seraphim Rose (St.Seraphim of Sarov) was purported to be a homosexual, but gave that up to become a monk then ultimately a saint. I'm not sure if he would be considered clergy, but he's still an example of a religious man.


    Fr Seraphim Rose and St. Seraphim of Sarov are NOT the same person.

    The former was an American convert to Orhodoxy, well known for his books. He has not been canonised as a saint. As for the allegations of homosexuality; I believe they're little more than rumor.

    St. Seraphim of Sarov, on the other hand, is one of the greatest saints of the Russian Church, who led a saintly life from childhood.


    I would think that the church accepts homosexuals so long as they do not act upon their lusts and try to fight it?

    All sexual relation outside of marriage is considered a sin by the Church (and is an impediment to the holy priesthood). Since marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman, there is no circumstance under which the Church accepts any form of homosexual practice.

    Sexual orientation is a different matter, as clay eloquently pointed out.
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    So in other words, what you guys are saying is:
    Homosexuals are allowed to be members as long as they remaine celibate??

    i mean highly doubtfull, since St. Paul himself made it very clear in one of his writings that Homosexuals would be among those in hell
  • clayclay
    The words St. Paul used mean 'people who pracitise homosexuality'. If you thought of fornicating, but resisted, you would not be called a fornicator would you? if you were tempted to lie, would you be called a liar? Same principle.
  • gigglyshygigglyshy
    we should accept homosexuals into the church just as we accept murderers, liars, cheaters, etc.

    I found this story at http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/2004/05/gay-but-not-funny.html

    "A priest once told about a man who came to see him about becoming Orthodox. The priest said, “Okay, we’ll need to discuss who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” The man interrupted him saying, “I’m gay.” The priest said, “Okay. But if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to discuss who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” “Dang it! Didn’t you hear me? I said, I’m gay!” “I heard you,” said the priest, “but if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to talk about who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ....” Crying, the man told the priest that other pastors had either told him it didn’t matter, or to get out! It took the man a couple years to become Orthodox, but another 10 years to become celibate. He claims he could never have made it without the benefit of Christ, the Church, and the Sacraments.

    The Church – our Spiritual Hospital – must be open to all. We’re all sick with the disease of sin. We cannot be healed, really healed, without receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. We must never turn our backs on someone just because they’re a sinner or their sin’s not ours. God forbid! This is the mission of the Church, to save sinners! But, by the same token, it is not within our power to state that a sin is no longer a sin. God alone forgives. God alone is the judge. He has revealed Himself and His will to us in the Scriptures, within the Church."

    Accepting homosexuals into the church doesn't mean taht we accept their actions, just as we don't accept the actions of people who murder, lie, cheat, etc. The church, if you read in the article link that I left for you, is like a hospital for sinners. We shouldn't reject one sinner and accept the next. It's wrong.

    Jasmine
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    here's how i understand it (this is also my personal view)
    as a church
    well we wont accept murderes as long as they continue murdering, we wont accept guys who cheat on their wives unless they stop
    and if a homosexual decides to change from his orientation then of course we will accept him, but when he says he'll remain celibate but will still keep his orientation then i dont belive we should accept him?

    Comments please
  • gigglyshygigglyshy
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=6065.msg80747#msg80747 date=1199383768]
    here's how i understand it (this is also my personal view)
    as a church
    well we wont accept murderes as long as they continue murdering, we wont accept guys who cheat on their wives unless they stop
    and if a homosexual decides to change from his orientation then of course we will accept him, but when he says he'll remain celibate but will still keep his orientation then i dont belive we should accept him?

    Comments please


    There's no such thing as a homosexual. There is such thing as a person who struggles with homosexual thoughts, just as a heterosexual struggles with thoughts of sex. Sex outside of marriage is adultery. Pleasurable thoughts of sex are another form of lust. Lust is lust, sex is sex, as long as it is outside of marriage-whether it be gay or not gay-it's still adultery. When a gay person promises to be celibate, they are promising that they will never commit adultery. I'm sure that they still struggle with thoughts of it though. We accept adulterers who repent and still struggle with thoughts of such acts, why shouldn't we accept people who struggle with homosexual thoughts? We don't accept murderer acts, but we accept the people. Judge the sin, not the sinner themselves. Only God has the right to judge us, not us ourselves.

    Jasmine
  • gigglyshygigglyshy
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=6065.msg80747#msg80747 date=1199383768]
    here's how i understand it (this is also my personal view)
    as a church
    well we wont accept murderes as long as they continue murdering, we wont accept guys who cheat on their wives unless they stop
    and if a homosexual decides to change from his orientation then of course we will accept him, but when he says he'll remain celibate but will still keep his orientation then i dont belive we should accept him?

    Comments please


    We do accept people who commit such bad sins, we don't accept their acts though. If the church was to not accept people who sin then you don't belong in the church and neither do I. Nobody would be allowed in the church becuase we keep sinning and sinning. The church accepts us DESPITE our evil acts.
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    ahh but the point im tryin to imply is that
    if a liar is a pathological liar and by this i mean he speaks no truth whatsoever even if he wants to not lie, do we accept him
    its the same thing w/ homosexuality
    if the man is a homosexual (even if he is a celibate) as long as he accepts taht he is something un-natural who is attracted to males then we do not accept him
  • clayclay
    Again, the use of the word homosexual explicitly refers to the action.

    The person that has same-sex attraction, if he accepts that, and remains celibrate is one who most likely have done it for fear of God, love of God and acknowledgment that he is a sinner.

    We are all sinners; we accept that. By accepting that we look externally for redemption, knowing it is not in ourselves.

    Let's not get hung up on this. People who have same-sex attraction have the same temptations as those who lust, those who are irresponsible... and the list goes on.

    There is way too much talk about homosexuality because somehow we believe it different to fornication and adultery. All stem from lust outside matrimony, all are acting on lust and all are an abomination.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    ^ Fantastic post!
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    ok sorry guys if i may seem a lil stubborn
    its just i can not justify to myself how its ok for a person to have a same sex attraction (as long as he doesnt act on it)

    i personally believe that one can not say this is normal, for it is not, neither can they its not wrong, because then one is just promoting the idea that same-sex attraction is normal whcihi leads to homosexuality.

    I also belive one cant compare opposite sex attraction to same sex attraction mainly becuase same sex attraction if pursued can lead only to a dead end..........homosexuality = sin
    however opposite sex attraction can lead to two paths .........marraige or pre-martial sexual activity..........one is supported and one is looked down upon
  • gigglyshygigglyshy
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=6065.msg80840#msg80840 date=1199565856]
    ok sorry guys if i may seem a lil stubborn
    its just i can not justify to myself how its ok for a person to have a same sex attraction (as long as he doesnt act on it)

    i personally believe that one can not say this is normal, for it is not, neither can they its not wrong, because then one is just promoting the idea that same-sex attraction is normal whcihi leads to homosexuality.

    I also belive one cant compare opposite sex attraction to same sex attraction mainly becuase same sex attraction if pursued can lead only to a dead end..........homosexuality = sin
    however opposite sex attraction can lead to two paths .........marraige or pre-martial sexual activity..........one is supported and one is looked down upon


    Nobody said it's okay for someone to have the same sex attraction.
    I think it's just wrong to keep someone from coming to the church because they practice homosexuality. I don't think we should accept the fact that they are homosexual though, as though it is okay or a good thing. What they are doing is adultery. It's outside of marriage, and outside of the marriage of a man and woman. It's a sin. Just as having sex outside of marriage is a sin.
  • clayclay
    People are not their bodies, their thoughts, their gender, their careers, their family, their place in a genealogy, their country's citizen, their sum of accessories, their lifestyle, their car, house, or shoes (ladies :P) and lastly, their 'sexuality'. They are spirits (c.f. Prov 20:27, Gen. 2:7). They have been given all these things, but their value is not in them. They are the creation of God made in His image, for honour or dishonour (c.f. 2 Tim 2:20). It is for that reason that sin really tarnishes us. If we are just those things above, then what does sin really do to us?

    If we were identified by our shortcomings, then we all wouldn't be allowed into the Hospital of our Souls, the Church. But we are not (c.f. Eccl. 7:29). We are men created in God's Image, who has sin residing within them, and seek healing. 

    Our craving for food is necessary for survival, yet indulging it too much leads to gluttony! All of our senses if indulged to different extents can lead to sin.

    People, for whatever reason, have a tendency or temptation to sin. Same-sex attraction is just one of many. To single it out, is to marginalize us all.

    Those who have same-sex attraction, like anyone combating problems of lust should be encouraged, for they are fighting a fierce battle. Just ask St. Augustine.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    ^ I nominate this for one of the best posts on this site.  Anyone want to second it?
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