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The Liturgical Rites of the Oriental Churches
I was wondering if someone can give a vague explanation of the major differences b/w the Coptic Liturgy and it's sister churches. I tried youtubing, googling, and wikipeding but didnt get too far.
Comments
Every liturgy, whether it be Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox have the same fundamental things. You're asking about the specific differences between the churches of the Oriental Orthodox though...
The Armenians don't use any particular saint's liturgy. They have one liturgy that they use all the time for every occasion and every Sunday.
What sort of differences are you looking for? The Oriental Orthodox Churches have the same faith but express it differently, according to the traditions of each church in each area.
Can u please elaborate on the points u made with detailed information. I personally would like to know my self the diffrences, between the two lituriges. Can anyone one else help?
Forgive my weakness.
Coptic Youth
In the Coptic Liturgy for example...Communion is placed directly into the mouth of the receipeint. In some of our sister churches communion is given into the hand of the receipeint.
Differences like that, i.e. priestly vestments, number of deacons, role of deacons, position of altar, way of worship, etc.
An example of what I had in mind by the word differences was:
In the Coptic Liturgy for example...Communion is placed directly into the mouth of the receipeint. In some of our sister churches communion is given into the hand of the receipeint.
Differences like that, i.e. priestly vestments, number of deacons, role of deacons, position of altar, way of worship, etc.
No Oriental Orthodox Church places communion into the hand of the recipient. That's a Roman Catholic tradition, not an Orthodox one.
An example of what I had in mind by the word differences was:
In the Coptic Liturgy for example...Communion is placed directly into the mouth of the receipeint. In some of our sister churches communion is given into the hand of the receipeint.
Differences like that, i.e. priestly vestments, number of deacons, role of deacons, position of altar, way of worship, etc.
The Armenian Church (a sister church of the Coptic Church) for one thing, has no iconostasis. They have a curtain instead and they have very few icons in their churches. For the icon or painting at the altar, Armenians traditionally have one of St. Mary holding Jesus, unlike the Copts who just have an icon or painting of just Jesus.
The Copts, Armenians, Indians, etc. all have the long white shirt thingy worn by the deacons and also by the priests, underneath their colourful vestments.
The number of deacons and such? I don't know too much about that. All Orientlal Orthodox Churches have their altars on the east side of the church.
As for the way of worship... where do you live? It's hard to find information about this stuff on the internet. I would recomend visiting an Armenian Orthodox Church (Armenians call their churches "Armenian Apostolic Church" for some reason), Indian Orthodox Church, Ethiopian Orthodox Church, etc. to know what the way of worship is amongst the people in each church.
[quote author=gigglyshy link=topic=6041.msg80548#msg80548 date=1198256686]
No Oriental Orthodox Church places communion into the hand of the recipient. That's a Roman Catholic tradition, not an Orthodox one.
This is the case in the present day. I was speaking to a friend and in the early Church, Communion used to be given in the hand. Think about it, why else do we carry the handkerchiefs with the crosses stitched on them? To cover our mouths after receiving communion in the mouth? Once the Body is in our mouth, it is, in my mind, inconceivable that it would fall out. Thus, the only reason (to me anyway), that we have the handkerchief was because the early Church practiced giving the Body in a person's hand. I had heard that the reason this practice stopped was because people used to not consume the Body, but wrap it up, take it home and save it, which really defeats the purpose of Communion to begin with.
as for whether the idea that the Holy Body was placed into the reciepent's hand back in the day....
i have never heard that before although someone pointed out that thats how St. Cyril of Jeruslem used to give Communion who according ot wikipedia is a Saint in the Eastern Orhtodox and Roman Catholic Churches (I dont know if he is considered one by our Church)
According to what i was told about the hankerchief, we use ti to cover our mouths so that notihing falls while we chew the Holy Body.
Dear gigglyshy,
Can u please elaborate on the points u made with detailed information. I personally would like to know my self the diffrences, between the two lituriges. Can anyone one else help?
Forgive my weakness.
Coptic Youth
I don't know too much about what the fundamental things are in a Divine Liturgy, but I wrote up a list of what the main parts are, which I am assuming is in all of the liturgies. Feel free to ask your priest or somebody though, becuase I don't know too much about these things:
vesting
purification
accession
prothesis
synaxis
censing lections, creed
offeratory of the sacrifice
laying of the gifts
kiss of peace
eucharistia
anamneses
epiclesis
diptychs
doxology
intinction and fraction
holy communion
thanksgiving
blessing and dismissal
As for Armenians not using any particular saint's liturgy... I don't know what they use. It has prayers of many saints within it, but it's not any particular saint's liturgy. I would say, go to one and check out their liturgical book and ask an Armenian priest. Where do you live? There might be an Armenian Orthodox Church around where you live, and I would recomend visiting one for a Sunday Liturgy. the Copts and Armenians are in communion with each other so you would be able to recieve Holy Communion. That's the only way to experience or learn of the differences of churches by visiting them. Ask your Abouna about the differences if you want too.
Jasmine
as for whether the idea that the Holy Body was placed into the reciepent's hand back in the day....
i have never heard that before although someone pointed out that thats how St. Cyril of Jeruslem used to give Communion who according ot wikipedia is a Saint in the Eastern Orhtodox and Roman Catholic Churches (I dont know if he is considered one by our Church)
According to what i was told about the hankerchief, we use ti to cover our mouths so that notihing falls while we chew the Holy Body.
I can't imagine touching the holy body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ before placing in my mouth. I'm glad the priest does that and all I have to do is open my mouth. I wouldn't want it any other way.
I have a large exposure to the Armenian Church and her traditions and less so with the Syrian Orthodox Church and even less with the other Sister Churches. My first exposure was a concelebration Divine Liturgy at the Armenian Cathedral of St. Vartan in New York in September 1983. It was a beautiful experience. The different churches represented: Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, and Syrian were given portions of the Armenian Liturgy to carry out, with the Armenian Church being the presiding church for this event. This concelebration was the second official one carried out in North America, the first was in Pennsylvania a year prior.
The Presiding Liturgy celebrant was H.E. Arbishop Torkom Manoogian, who has later become the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem.
Since that time there have been at least one dozen official concelebrations in North America.
I attended at least half-a-dozen of the unofficial dialogues between the Oriental Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church in the United States, and I would tell you it was amazing to see the interactions the protocols and accords. A lot of the discussions were privileged and I to this day cannot disclose them, but needless to say I was awe inspired by such an experience. At each meeting, each church was given a chance to do the Divine Liturgy in their own tradition and those in communion would receive, and those not in communion would be observors. I had the honor of leading the deacons on the day that the Coptic Church was given that task. It was in the Pentecost Season.
I have served at the altar in different Armenian Churches and even at the Cathedral. I do the chants in Armenian, having been taught by Armenian priests and seminarians. When His Holiness, Catholicos Karekin I came to the United States in January 1996, I had the honor of attending and serving at the altar when he celebrated the Divine Liturgy as they used the Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine to gather their Armenian people. There were about 6000 people in attendance, and let me tell you it was a Divine and well-respected gathering. There was no 'hargala' like Coptics when the get together for such a large event. Everything was very dignified.
The Armenians came to the United States and North America approximately 110 years ago. They are a proud people, preserving to the Orthodox Theology and ideals. Their coming to the United States was fostered by a relationship with the Episcopal Church in the United States. This relationship was quite helpful in establishing parishes and even the whole diocese, but in another sense it introduced many traditions and practices that for the long run are a major detriment to the Armenian Church in the United States and the Mother Church as a whole. Examples of these infiltrations are: (1) election of their bishop for the diocese to a term similar to the president of the United States or any of the legislators; (2) the essential fall off of the Sacrament of Confession. This is difficult to explain, but all that is carried out as a practice is a general confession that is done in the Liturgy, but there is really no one-on-one interaction with the priest as a practice. Because of the introduction of this practice, people have forgotten and have become slothful about going to confession singly. (3) every piece in the church has someone's plaque or label on it as the benefactor, patron, or contributor; (4) the decline of fasting in practice throughout the liturgical calendar; and there are other examples. It is rare to find the average Armenian member to even know what fasting is.
The vestments are more elaborate than those used in the Coptic Church. For the priest (regardless of rank), they have to be fully vested from head to toe. There is a mitre (crown) and the full ensemble including a cape.
One of the comments on the Armenian Church is that they are a hybrid of Western and Eastern patterns when it relates to vestments. They have portions of their vestments that resemble the Byzantine style and in other respects that which resembles the Roman Church. There are a whole series of historical interactions over the centuries that led to this evolution.
The bishop's staff is in the shape of a shepherd's crook rather than the brazen serpent staff with the central cross as is used in the other Eastern churches. Yet their Vartabeds (Doctors of the Church) use the brazen serpent staff with the central cross.
They are the only Orthodox Church to use unleavened bread, and the wine is undiluted for use in the chalice (no water is added).
The Liturgy that is used by them is a single one as mentioned by gigglyshy, but although, it does not have the exact label of St. Athanasius the Apostolic (Coptic saint and patriarch), it is believed to be either his or derived from it similar to the concept of the Liturgy of St. Cyril in the Coptic Church being derived from St. Mark himself. Archbishop Torkom (earlier mentioned) had translated the Armenian Liturgy in the late 60's and mentioned this in his introduction. In my discussions with Very Rev. M. Daniel Findikyan, Dean of the Armenian Seminary of St. Nersess in New York, and recent translator of the same Liturgy identifies the same. He makes the point of its derivation as either being direct or indirect, but his insistence is of strong Athanasian influence. It is funny, we in the Coptic Church rarely use the Liturgy of St. Cyril (a truly Coptic Liturgy), and rather rely on the Byzantine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (aka "the theologian" as rendered in the Coptic Church). As another observation, half of the saints they mention in their Liturgy's Diptych are Coptic Saints.
They are a divided jurisdiction with the one in Etchmiadzin having primacy over the jurisdiction of Antelias (the House of Cilicia. The Catholicos of the jurisdiction in Etchmiadzin is known as the "Supreme Catholicos"--he is currently His Holiness Karekin II. In Antelias, there is the Catholicos, Aram I. Below the Catholicoi, there are two patriarchs: The Patriarch of Constantinople, who is currently (i believe) His Beatitude Multafian, and the Patriarch of Jerusalem, His Beatitude Torkom Manoogian. In the Armenian hierarchy, the title 'patriarch' is lesser than 'catholicos'.
The deacons assist the priest in the Liturgy. They have evolved choirs which are inclusive of female participants, who wear a choir robe. Often times, the women lead the choirs. Quite honestly, they have beautiful voices far nicer than the men. In the chanting of the hymns and prayers the training is more intense than in the Coptic Church, and there are no ad noc renderings. They give a strong emphasis on musical training and being on key and note.
Their deacons are able to use the censor (the 'purvar'). The priest will put the incense in the censor and the deacons at different times offer incense around the church and at the altar. The priest will take the censor from the deacon at different times in the Liturgy and raise incense himself.
They share the same rendering of the Seven Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), although functionally the full regard of the Holy Sacrament of Confession has been reduced to almost nothing as I noted previously.
They do not use an iconostasis, as a wall and barrier, between the altar and the rest of the church. Their altars are elevated considerably (relative to our practice) of anywhere from three to six feet off the ground. This is to establish a height from which to have reference that all the people are forced to look up in adoration. This function serves two purposes: practically, in that it keeps you from looking around the church, and spiritually by reminding one to elevate his heart and soul to the Lord, and in keeping with the Psalm: 'I have lifted up mine eyes to the mountains from whence my help comes'.
They usually have an agape meal after the church's Divine Liturgy.
In the United States they have a Seminary in New Rochelle, NY. Those contemplating entry into the Priesthood, must do four years in the Seminary in the United States and thereafter one to two years divided in Etchmiadzin (in Armenia) and in Jerusalem.
A fatality of the Armenian Genocide of the early twentieth century is the fall off of monasticism in the Armenian Church. The number of functional monasteries, depending on who you ask, is about three in the world. There is also a controversy of what is considered a monastery. However, in terms of a parallel to the monastic system in the Coptic Church, there is nothing like Wadi Natrun. There are the archaelogical remnants, and burned out buildings from the atrocities of the Ottoman Turks. Under His Holiness Karekin II there has been a recent attempt for revival of the monastic system.
In regards to their icons, they favor using less relative to avoiding the people's detachment from the focus on the Lord Himself to some of the supersititious and cultic misactions that people sometimes undertake relative to the saint's icons. That is a huge topic in itself.
The altar faces the East, and the main icon from which the altar table extend is usually the enthroned Theotokos as she bares the Child Jesus, Our Lord.
Their norm in North America is for Divine Liturgy on Sundays only, with very very rare exceptions on other days (excepting that for the High Feast Days as they occur on days of the week, e.g., The Nativity, Epiphany, etc.
They celebrate the Feast of the Nativity in conjunction with the Epiphany on January 6 (this for them is in using the Western Gregorian Calendar). This practice is the old practice as they mentioned that the Epiphany/Theophany was a conjoined feast that was later subdivided into separate Feast Days of the Epiphany and Nativity. Interestingly, and to confuse the matter, the Armenian Church in Jerusalem celebrates the Nativity/Epiphany Feast on January 19 which is using the Eastern Julian Calendar.
The Armenian Church was founded by the Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeaus. Later after a pagan interval there is the revival of the Armenian Church in the Third Century under St. Gregory the Illuminator. He is mentioned in the Diptychs of the Coptic Church as "St. Gregory the Armenian".
They essentially venerate the Armenian Alphabet as a gift from God that helped elevate them as a people. This alphabet was invented by the Sts. Sahak and Mesrob.
One of the most striking and beautiful renderings in Armenian Liturgical Services is the rendering of the "Our Father" prayer in chant rather than recitation. It is amazing!!!!
Their priests, as a practice in North America, are not required to have a beard.
I have wished for more interaction with the Armenian Church and their community, in order that we would learn from their 110 years of experience in this country (the United States). It would give as some good examples, and at least a chance to see warnings for things to avoid in this country. I would recommend going and attending the Divine Liturgy. I would add that you should make sure that is an Orthodox jurisdiction, because there are Armenian Catholic Churches as a parallel uniate system, just like there is a Coptic Catholic Church as a parallel to the original and true lineage in the Coptic Orthodox Church to the time of St. Mark.
There is one major warning to be made from having observed them: BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE THE INFLUENCE OF THE PROTESTANT. No doubt that influence along with the secular influence of the United States has been a detriment to their history and identity in the United States.
Hopefully, I have given you something to chew on for dinner. Happy New Year, or as the say with the accent: "Habby New Year".
thanks so much
a few interesting notes, that i picked up from your info tho:
as for whether HH Pope Shenouda III allows the BOC to recieve communion in the hand, yes i was shocked about it too, and highly confused because it was different too me, but we have a member of the BOC on this site who actually confirmed it, Communion is given in the recepients hand during the Liturgy of St. James, but if say for example they were to pray the Liturgy of St. Basil it would be adminstered orally. Personally I am happy to be able to just ingest it not actually touch it, and i'd never want that to be changed.
They usually have an agape meal after the church's Divine Liturgy.
Our CO church actually used to have that same practice, unfortuantely with time and money being of shoratage they sorta
replaced that practice with the now more common "Orbana after the liturgy"
One other tidbit of information: they soak (full intinction) the whole Host into the Chalice.
Many Copts specially here in Egypt, were afraid that they'd contract Hepatits C from drinking after another person from the Cup, thus some of them pushed their priests to talk to HH so that they may switch over to that same practice of dipping the Host into the Chalice.
I thank God for the ability to receive the Holy Eucharist in the form of the Two Elements. I believe and know that there can be no transmission or contamination of disease through the chalice. I think people's fears have gone beyond their belief and reasoning. I do not know of any priest that has contracted any disease from the chalice, despite finishing the Sacrifice at the end after everyone has received.
As a note and to try to be fully descriptive as I mentioned the Armenian Communion. The entire Host is soaked in the chalice and left there as the priest breaks off pieces to give those receiving the Eucharist.
I am interested: what jurisdiction/diocese are you in that is carrying out the intincture practice for the Eucharist?
joe
I will say that the Church has acted for the good of the people and there are usually a whole list of reasons before actions are taken; not just one or two. As with certain things, there are portions that are practical for the life of the people and another, more importantly, the spiritual discipline that is the main focus.
I have watched the dispensing of Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic, and on the whole I do not think this practice has been helpful, at all, in the people appreciating the Sacrament of Sacraments. If anything the reverence and dignity for the Eucharist, has gone down even further. I can go on and on about my observations. I have attended plenty of Roman Catholic Liturgies, not just one or two. Let me tell you it is very disheartening to see. I am thankful and blessed by the accord of reverence to the Holy Eucharist that is accorded in the Orthodox Church.
As for the not required pre-communion fasting that strikes me as weird, only because we do it out of respect so that the frist thing that enters our body is the Body of Christ. Lets not forget that the original Eucharist was given at Passover, which probably required fasting prior to the meal. Also as a Church we fast prior to a Feast i.e. we fast for 43 days before breaking fast on Christmas Iwhere we recieve Christ) thus we should also fast for 9 hrs prior to receiving Christ into us.
joe