Modernizing Hymns

2

Comments

  • [quote author=LifeinChrist link=topic=5806.msg77932#msg77932 date=1191528265]
    just my opinion: we have changed things so that WE the copts can be sound and happy while praying fro example the translation of a coptic liturgy to arabic, and in the 70s i believe it was to english. epouro is a nice hymn BUT it can be sung in english. i know it in all three languages and havent changed a beat. also it is possible to change shere ne maria into english and still sing it the long way, you would just have to know where ot place the hazzats. also on the point of a spirtual song on good friday, before or after the priests sermon is fine, but i think because we are so stuck to the rites we are preventing ourselves from the real Goal which is ultimatly prayer. I think that yes we should do what is right and go by the rites of the church BUT when the song is said i dont think is that big of an issue as we make it, if it was im sure there would have been plenty of priests that prevent the deacons and congregation from singing it. again this is only my opinion.


    do u really want to take every coptic person opinion. and yes am saying every single one. becuase as u would want to sing coptic hymns in english, than every one else want to sing em in their native language. and than u'll do that, and than shorten the hymns ecuz it doesn't sound good in english and than wooooooooooow......hymns are gone...........

    [quote author=LifeinChrist link=topic=5806.msg77951#msg77951 date=1191535752]
    sorry to interrupt but if you look at these hymns, tenen is one of my favorite hymns, but what use is it if we do not understand. i am not saying sing everything in english or in arabic, but if everything stays coptic then no one understands. its like reciting somehting in a language you do not understand. You do not know the meaning. How many people can honestly tell me the meaning of Taishori off the top of their heads. not many. but epouro a lot of people can tell you. Because it is a hymn that has been recited in all 3 languages many times. We have to acknowledge the fact that almost no one speaks the language anymore, i am in no manner saying throw the language out because i love the language. but i am saying that chanting the hymns in english every once in a while isnt going to send me to hell. People dont know the meaning to a lot of hymns because they don't hear it in english. What is sad is that the translation is right there in front of us and we are not using it. What is the point of translating the liturgy then? Why doesn't abouna pray it in all coptic... because the prayer to the congregation would be meaningless. I am implying that the congregation needs someone to chant the hymns in another language every once in a while.


    why are you guys confusing understanding with knowing. aas i said before:
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5806.msg77894#msg77894 date=1191461213]
    coptic is a language.....it is in fact translated into other languages very easly as just another language. so it's not like we don't know what we're saying like other religions.....no we do no what we're saying but the feeeling u get from listing to a hymn that is very spiritual is better thatn really saying the exact meaning.
  • Ok look hymns were made to get you closer to god if all you think about is just other peoples opinions than you well never have a life because people change opinions constantly. Please translating was for us to understand what we are saying and not just to say everything in that language. The only reason we say in english is for people who don't know coptic. Why not teach them? Coptic is the main language KEEP IT.
  • yeah, Coptic is our language, and instead of tearing it down and replacing it, we should be teaching it ! It was originally the language we spoke on a daily basis and now it's only in churches, we can't take it out of that too !
    if anything, i think the majority of mass and hymns should be in Coptic.
    i mean sure it bothers me when i see ppl stand there and jump into a hymn only when they know a few words (without even knowing the meaning) then stopagain, but that can be fixed.

    (by the way i got this from a bishop's sermon can't remember who) somebody was asking him why we must sing things in coptic when we don't understand it. The bishop responded in a way i would have never expected, he said whats the difference if we sing it in coptic or arabic or english, do you even understand the meanings behind the words that you so called understand?

    i totally agree with that..it's not like anyone in all homesty understands every word, and it's spiritual meaning. LIke this is a stupid example and it's nto exactly a hymn, but in pascha week, when they say all the "kryie eliesons" like 400(i think???) when i just keep repeating it i lose all meaning ...so as i say it in coptic im slowlyyyyyy thinking and translating it in English.
  • [quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=5806.msg77976#msg77976 date=1191623534]
    yeah, Coptic is our language, and instead of tearing it down and replacing it, we should be teaching it ! It was originally the language we spoke on a daily basis and now it's only in churches, we can't take it out of that too !
    if anything, i think the majority of mass and hymns should be in Coptic.
    i mean sure it bothers me when i see ppl stand there and jump into a hymn only when they know a few words (without even knowing the meaning) then stopagain, but that can be fixed.

    (by the way i got this from a bishop's sermon can't remember who) somebody was asking him why we must sing things in coptic when we don't understand it. The bishop responded in a way i would have never expected, he said whats the difference if we sing it in coptic or arabic or english, do you even understand the meanings behind the words that you so called understand?

    i totally agree with that..it's not like anyone in all homesty understands every word, and it's spiritual meaning. LIke this is a stupid example and it's nto exactly a hymn, but in pascha week, when they say all the "kryie eliesons" like 400(i think???) when i just keep repeating it i lose all meaning ...so as i say it in coptic im slowlyyyyyy thinking and translating it in English.

    You are pretty close (412). You should not lose the meaning of [coptic]Kuire el`eycon[/coptic]. You say it every mass and during the year (definitely more than 412 times) and each time you say it, you don't lose the meaning. Same scenario here, except it isn't spread out. Also, you cannot blame the Church about that, it was the Publican who started the whole thing. The Church put it in Coptic because Coptic is the official language of the Church. Every Coptic Church must know Coptic (at least one deacon) although they are not forced to say Coptic every mass. Just some of them.
  • Dear aem581,
    I like your opinion, but I just disagree on one bit: I don't think that at least one deacond should know Coptic: I think all of them should. Well, I understand that you describe the worst case scenario, but we would like to start from here: from these wonderful websites that are helping revival of the Coptic hymns in particular, and the language in a borader sense (just the church language AT LEAST), and try to start with ourselves, so that each deacon of us starts teaching the others. I hope I am clear.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=5806.msg78006#msg78006 date=1191791169]
    The Church put it in Coptic because Coptic is the official language of the Church.


    Although Coptic is the main language of the Coptic Church, [coptic]Kurie Eleycon[/coptic] is Greek, not Coptic. The Coptic would be [coptic]P[oic nai[/coptic] or something like that (someone please correct my grammar).
  • [coptic]`P[oic nai nan[/coptic] i hope I spelled it correctly I don't have Coptic fonts on what I'm using but in english-coptic its epchoic nai nan
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=5806.msg78016#msg78016 date=1191840793]
    Dear aem581,
    I like your opinion, but I just disagree on one bit: I don't think that at least one deacond should know Coptic: I think all of them should. Well, I understand that you describe the worst case scenario, but we would like to start from here: from these wonderful websites that are helping revival of the Coptic hymns in particular, and the language in a borader sense (just the church language AT LEAST), and try to start with ourselves, so that each deacon of us starts teaching the others. I hope I am clear.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot



    ophadece,
    I wanted to say that but I didn't know if anybody else would agree
    [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5806.msg78019#msg78019 date=1191849805]
    [quote author=aem581 link=topic=5806.msg78006#msg78006 date=1191791169]
    The Church put it in Coptic because Coptic is the official language of the Church.


    Although Coptic is the main language of the Coptic Church, [coptic]Kurie Eleycon[/coptic] is Greek, not Coptic. The Coptic would be [coptic]P[oic nai[/coptic] or something like that (someone please correct my grammar).


    [coptic]`P[oic nai nan[/coptic]. I know that [coptic]Kurie eleycon[/coptic] is Greek, not Coptic. My point is most of the hymns that we sing (not all of them, most of them) are in Coptic because it was Egypt's official language at the time of St. Mark's and before the Muslim invasion in which they brought Arabic with them.
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=5806.msg78023#msg78023 date=1191854234]
    ~[coptic]p[OIC nai nan[/coptic] i hope I spelled it correctly I don't have Coptic fonts on what I'm using but in english-coptic its epchoic nai nan


    jydeacon,
    That is pretty impressive for not having fonts and still knowing generally where everything is. The only reason why I know my Coptic stuff is because I have the same font that they use here on my computer so it is a lot easier.
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=5806.msg78023#msg78023 date=1191854234]
    ~[coptic]p[OIC nai nan[/coptic] i hope I spelled it correctly I don't have Coptic fonts on what I'm using but in english-coptic its epchoic nai nan

    jydeacon,
    That is pretty impressive for not having fonts and still knowing generally where everything is. The only reason why I know my Coptic stuff is because I have the same font that they use here on my computer so it is a lot easier.

    Thanks, Actually i've been using Coptic fonts for 3-4 years on another computer, i was at school so i didn't have the fonts on the computer i was using and since the preview button generally shows me what it looks like so i can correct it before i post it i couldn't check if i had put the symbols in correctly
  • jydeacon,
    Do you live in Egypt??? Do you live out of the United States???
  • No i live in the United States my whole life but i have been to Egypt many times why?
  • jydeacon,
    Today is Columbus Day. I thought it was a national holiday. That is going off-topic. Anyways, so, that is still pretty good to do Coptic fonts that well if you don't have them at your school. Keep it up!!!
  • Yes today is Columbus day but not all schools get today off, especially colleges because they are state funded institutions and not federal, so as i see it if the school is federally funded then they get the day off if by the state then they don't
  • Oh, I see.
  • I'm all for reverting, even, to a completely, 100 percent Coptic service (Litrurgy, hymns, everthing!). We must preserve our identity, and just the fact that Coptic is such a great language that everyone should learn is reason enough for such a reversion to occur.
  • I'm all for reverting, even, to a completely, 100 percent Coptic service (Litrurgy, hymns, everthing!). We must preserve our identity, and just the fact that Coptic is such a great language that everyone should learn is reason enough for such a reversion to occur.

    i totally agree !
  • That would be a nice thing to do, but its not practical. the fact in the matter is most people don't understand Coptic so it must be a mix even if it were a small mix between all three languages with a majority of Coptic
  • yeah, true, BUT
    1) theres the little translation book thing
    2) it would motivate(almost force) people to learn more coptic, cuz right now, there really arent many people that know coptic, it might go extinct :O
  • [quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=5806.msg78067#msg78067 date=1191893396]
    yeah, true, BUT
    1) theres the little translation book thing
    2) it would motivate(almost force) people to learn more coptic, cuz right now, there really arent many people that know coptic, it might go extinct :O


    So true - that's the key. Motivation!
  • I wouldn't say it's going exticnt i think that threat has passed, and yes there is a translation but you still must keep things practical, now i'm speaking in a liturgical sense and not the hymns themselves. the hymns should stay and always be in coptic but the liturgy must be a mix
  • [quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=5806.msg78067#msg78067 date=1191893396]
    yeah, true, BUT
    1) theres the little translation book thing
    2) it would motivate(almost force) people to learn more coptic, cuz right now, there really arent many people that know coptic, it might go extinct :O


    u guys are talking the translation idea in a wrong way. the reason we translate coptic texts is for us to understand what we're saying. not like muslims who read arabic, not knowing meaning and being foolled by the meaning written below the text which we know for a fact is not fully accurate.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=5806.msg78072#msg78072 date=1191893905]
    [quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=5806.msg78067#msg78067 date=1191893396]
    yeah, true, BUT
    1) theres the little translation book thing
    2) it would motivate(almost force) people to learn more coptic, cuz right now, there really arent many people that know coptic, it might go extinct :O


    u guys are talking the translation idea in a wrong way. the reason we translate coptic texts is for us to understand what we're saying. not like muslims who read arabic, not knowing meaning and being foolled by the meaning written below the text which we know for a fact is not fully accurate.


    Minagir is correct in saying this, we have the translations so we understand what we are saying and comprehend it not just for the sake of knowing what is being said
  • okay..well a mix would be dandy, btu we don't even have that...
    like i know in the staes (my church at least) up till a month or so ago...we had 80% of the mass english ! why? becasue "el atfal mabeifahmoshh" the children don't understand.


    u guys are talking the translation idea in a wrong way. the reason we translate coptic texts is for us to understand what we're saying. not like muslims who read arabic, not knowing meaning and being foolled by the meaning written below the text which we know for a fact is not fully accurate.

    i'm not saying we should sit there and reading random coptic that we dont understand it bothers me when ppl do that. i can read coptic, but i don't understand it, and i'm trying to fix that. we need to preserve the language.
  • [quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=5806.msg78075#msg78075 date=1191894166]
    okay..well a mix would be dandy, btu we don't even have that...
    like i know in the staes (my church at least) up till a month or so ago...we had 80% of the mass english ! why? becasue "el atfal mabeifahmoshh" the children don't understand.


    u guys are talking the translation idea in a wrong way. the reason we translate coptic texts is for us to understand what we're saying. not like muslims who read arabic, not knowing meaning and being foolled by the meaning written below the text which we know for a fact is not fully accurate.

    i'm not saying we should sit there and reading random coptic that we dont understand it bothers me when ppl do that. i can read coptic, but i don't understand it, and i'm trying to fix that. we need to preserve the language.


    what do u mean ya habibi....what else can u do other than translate in the local language of children. also when it come to liturgies, most of the churchs, atleast mine, have english liturgies which most of the prayers are in english, just for children. also another thing that is going on now is having projectors in churchs where there are liturgy presentations. where children can fallow. this have been going on in my church for about 2 3 yrs now and it really changed ppls minds till the pt that they would ask about it if there is no projectrs.
  • yeah, we have one in my church too.
    well, the children can read, Can't they?
    they can translate it on their own, i don't feel why coptic and arabic are cut out so much, just so the children, that are in fact sitting there sleeping can understand the mass.
  • [quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=5806.msg78081#msg78081 date=1191894619]
    yeah, we have one in my church too.
    well, the children can read, Can't they?
    they can translate it on their own, i don't feel why coptic and arabic are cut out so much, just so the children, that are in fact sitting there sleeping can understand the mass.


    than u can't blame us, deacons in general for this. children need to learn how to worship, the faith and many things about church. y do u think there are many young deacons now....so they can learn more and more.
  • Yeah, we need the Coptic language to move on or else we are going to need another revival for the Coptic language. Also, Mina, many parents just like to see that their kids are learning. In all modesty, I am a leader in my Church and even the biggest troublemakers of the Church are just deacons because their parents love to see that their children are religious. It is just how religious the Egyptians are. Most of the Egyptian culture is religion which is why it is so important for their children to be deacons.
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=5806.msg78085#msg78085 date=1191896096]
    Yeah, we need the Coptic language to move on or else we are going to need another revival for the Coptic language. Also, Mina, many parents just like to see that their kids are learning. In all modesty, I am a leader in my Church and even the biggest troublemakers of the Church are just deacons because their parents love to see that their children are religious. It is just how religious the Egyptians are. Most of the Egyptian culture is religion which is why it is so important for their children to be deacons.


    u r rit. but they do that by leaving them to church with out them doing anything in raising the children which is.....wrong.
  • Minagir is right, the parents themselves aren't teaching the kids on their own and basically they just hand them off too the deacons as if it is a babysitting service. and then when the deacons actually do discipline them and teach them that its wrong to do such and such or don't do such and such the parents say they don't have a right to do that and that the deacons had the audacity to tell their kids to be quiet or sit still or not to mess with the shoriya
  • Why don't we just teach the children Coptic? They can learn it. It isn't that hard...half of the letters are familiar to them anyway!

    I think that the Sunday school system should be standard from Church to Church - with each lesson being one hour.
    Half hour for hymns used in the Liturgy (Hiten, Alleluia Fai Pe Pi, Agios O Theos, etc)
    And the other half hour for study of the Coptic language - this would include lexicons, reading, and understanding the texts/hymns.
    For example, composing works in Coptic, no matter how basic, would greatly improve thier skills.

    One can only dream of such a 'revival', so to speak.

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