I am engaged to Coptic Orthodox.We are planning to get married.I agreed to get baptized because I know that Orthodox can't marry a Catholic.However I am still very close to my church and it is much more familiar to me.This is the place I was brought in.For my fiance his church is very important.There are no compromises concerning this issue.He wants his children to be brught up in Coptic Orthodox church etc and I sometimes feel I am unable to be a true Orthodox.The sermons are very long and tiring for me.Moreover they are in Arabic and Cotpic so I dont understand anything.I was just participating to take comunion.We are planning to live in Egypt actually there r no other opportunitites now.This is another issue because I am not so happy about it.I am sorry for being a little bit chaotic.I just have a request- please pray for us to take right decision according to God's will not to our will...
Comments
Hello sonya,
It seems to me you are becoming Orthodox for the wrong reason. You shouldn't convert simply because you want to marry someone. Your love for Christ should be the driving reason you wish to become a member of the Church, and not your love for another person. It would appear that you are very close to your church, and I would suggest strongly that you address these issues with your fiancé. Marriage, is a sacrament (as you know since you are Catholic). This is not something you should take lightly, as this sacrament is a binding, life-long commitment. I'm certain you already know this, and please do not think I'm trying to be patronizing or anything. I just want to hammer home the gravity of this situation.
Again, talk to your fiancé. Let him know that you have these concerns. If you cannot confide in him and be honest about your feelings, I fear this may not bode well for the future. You will certainly be in my prayers, but I suggest that you talk to your priest, his priest and him. Be honest and frank, and let them know of your concerns. In the end, I'm sure God will guide you to the right decision.
Cephas is right! Communication is key in any relationship and if you are not able to voice your concerns now, you will face difficulties in your marriage.
Your fiance might take it for granted that you are okay with becoming an orthodox and he will be shocked if you later on tell him that you do not want to go to church with him.
I am sure you will both appreciate talking to each other about it and get to a consensus. You seem to know how sacred marriage is.
God bless you and your fiance :)
in the mean while ask God. !!!!! ;D
/
mahraeel
plzz p4m Sister in Christ
He helped us a lot on our way.
I can understand your ties to your church. That makes total sense, since it is the church you were raised in from birth. I'm certain that the Coptic Church must certainly seem foreign to you, and I'm glad to hear that you have been talking to a priest about this matter. Just give it time. All change requires a certain period of adjustment, and this is no different. I know the Liturgies and the sermons can be long and boring (I've felt that way at times myself). I would suggest that you try and get your hands on an English Liturgical book so that you can read along the parts that said in either Coptic or Arabic, so that you can understand it better. Also, if you haven't done so already, try and get books on Orthodoxy, and the history of the Coptic Church. That may help you learn more about what's going on and why things are the way they are in the Church.
To be honest I never used it during the mass.Few times I participated in Coptic Mass in English.It was much shorter than the Arabic one.Of course, understanding the words made it much easier, however still the way was tiring for me.Anyway I just returned from Egypt one week ago and started thinking about everything.I need to pray a lot these days and hear God's voice... cause I believe if this is His will, He will help me in that.
I dont know why sometimes I get so annoyed from orthodox church...I can't explain that.I am sad about it but it happens...
Truthfully,(not to be mean or make you doubt or anything) the only way you should be joining the Coptic Orthodox Church or any church for that matter, should be because you want to or led by the Holy Spirit to join that specific church. I hope though that you get married and you become Orthodox out of your own will. Egypt will be so awesome and you'll love the country, the people, and the language(if you get the language and learn it). By the way, the Catholic Church is a break-off of the Coptic Orthodox Church. As a matter of fact every church if you get technical is a break-off of the Coptic Church. The Coptic Church is the first church after Christ, started by St. Mark(the first Patriarch).
Hope you make the right decision.
In Christ,
abosefien
I became Coptic Orthodox when I married as well, but I came from the Coptic Catholic church so the Arabic and Coptic language was not a big deal. In California they have ALL english mass. Also if you know about church history, the Catholic church changed a lot since Vatican II came into play in the late sixties. Will pray for you. Living in Egypt might be quiet difficult once the novelty of the idea wears off. I can to the U.S. when I was 8 and the U.S. is the only home I know, when I went to Egypt for a visit last year, I couldn't wait to get back, and I only stayed for 2 weeks. Sorry to rain on your parade but you should go for a visit first before making a life changing decision.
By the way, the Catholic Church is a break-off of the Coptic Orthodox Church. As a matter of fact every church if you get technical is a break-off of the Coptic Church. The Coptic Church is the first church after Christ, started by St. Mark(the first Patriarch).
As far as local churches go, the first is certainly that of Jerusalem, over which St. James the Brother of God presided, not the See of Alexandria.
As far as Orthodox and Catholic church I know that Catholic church introduced a lot of innovations since the time of Jesus Christ ( this is the things that I dont like) and I know Cotpic Orthodox teaching just related to the Bible and are unchanged since the time of Jesus.The point is to get used to liturgy...
I can relate to what you are going through (to an extent). I am Egyptian, but I was born and raised outside Egypt. When I went to Egypt for the first time, I had one of the greatest culture shocks ever. Don't get me wrong, I love Egypt, but going there the first time was really, um, 'different'. Eventually, I moved and lived there for 3 years. I didn't mind it very much because 1) I was finishing up high school, and so had a bunch of friends to hang out with, 2) I'm a guy and 3) I didn't interact with the Egyptians all that much. I was living in a district of Cairo called Ma3adi, which is where most of the foreigners lived. I can imagine the culture shock you had, being a European, and going to Egypt for the first time. Something to bear in mind, visiting Egypt is completely different then living there. When you visit, at the back of your mind you know that at some point you will be leaving the country. Living there is more permanent. Please don't think I'm trying to discourage you in anyway, I just want you to be aware that there is a difference. Interacting with Egyptians can (and almost certainly will) be frustrating and trying at times. Other times, you will have a blast. Just sit with yourself and see if you can honestly live there for the rest of your life. I can guarantee that it will not be the same life you live in Europe. Keep praying, and may God enlighten your way for you.
I am in total agreement with what every one has replied to you with, and more so with what Cephas was saying. True in every small detail dealing with Egyptians in a visit in Egypt, is totally, and wholly different than dealing with them as in every day life.
BUT, the replied concentrated on you to a very great extent, and on your feelings. Let me take you a bit further: you have to think about your fiance: you have some responsibility towards him. I totally agree with what has been said, it is not the right reason to leave your church because you want to get married, but I honestly sense that you love your fiance. Well, the love for him shouldn't by any means exceed your love to God, and to Jesus' bride, the church. Even though I am very biassed in favour of my Coptic Orthodox Church, but I would suggest that you talk it over with your fiance, and don't think alone. Sorry for saying this, but if you see your fiance as a bit selfish and uncaring for your feelings, then there is no regret if you leave him. But if this love is from God, you will come to an agreement which suits both of you. You have to talk to him, and not think alone, and remember again: I agree: "don't leave your church because you love someone", as abosefein said "you have to want to or be led by the Holy Spirit". Hope I haven't made it more complicated.
God bless you and pray for me a lot
What I am sure about I want to make a good Christian family
I am engaged to Coptic Orthodox.We are planning to get married.I agreed to get baptized because I know that Orthodox can't marry a Catholic.However I am still very close to my church and it is much more familiar to me.This is the place I was brought in.For my fiance his church is very important.There are no compromises concerning this issue.He wants his children to be brught up in Coptic Orthodox church etc and I sometimes feel I am unable to be a true Orthodox.The sermons are very long and tiring for me.Moreover they are in Arabic and Cotpic so I dont understand anything.I was just participating to take comunion.We are planning to live in Egypt actually there r no other opportunitites now.This is another issue because I am not so happy about it.I am sorry for being a little bit chaotic.I just have a request- please pray for us to take right decision according to God's will not to our will...
Hi Sonya,
You agreed to get baptised because you know that Orthodox cannot marry Catholic. This is the problem. If you said : "I really am blessed to have found someone to have lead me into Orthodoxy" then great!! But this is not the case. You are already a practicing Christian. Your Catholic Church raised you and made u into the Christian that your Coptic Fiancé loved; and he loved it so much he wished for you to be Orthodox?? It would be hard for you to become Orthodox if you don't believe in our doctrine. However, it is not entirely impossible.
However, the problems I can see u may face is that of the Coptic Church in Egypt. This is very different than the Coptic Church in Europe. The mass / sermon is celebrated in English in the west, but NEVER will be read in any other language than Coptic/Arabic in Egypt. How then can you grow spiritually? It seems you are doing everything except change your name for this Coptic Fiancé.
The more changes u have to make, the harder married life will be. The less changes and more things in common, the easier.
I just wished to point out the following:
I ended up gowing to the Catholic Church a lot (for nearly 4 years consistently) as there were no orthodox Churches where I lived. During the mass, there was nothing really being said that was against my Coptic Faith. But the issue is that it is not exactly the same doctrine as ours, and in some masses they talk about the filoque, and the immaculate conception. The problem is this: when my catholic friends asked me to pray in their prayer meetings etc, I always used to sing in Coptic. Lol... not to annoy them, but it is because I AM COPTIC. We share many things in common, I admit that, but because my Church is like my mother, I won't put her on the sideline because I found new Christian friends who happen to be Catholic. The same with you. If you were raised and really believe in the Catholic Dogmas, it will be hard for you to accept our dogmas and traditions.
I didnt appreciate the Holy Body of Christ being kept AFTER the mass, and locked away. This is TOTALLY against our Coptic Spiritual and Biblical Traditions. This CANNOT be left behind. This disturbed me.
I cannot accept Saint Mary being born of TWO NORMAL HUMAN beings and then being given a title as "immaculate" as if the original sin was wiped away from her. If this is the case, why do so many Coptic Churches go to pilgrimages to Lourdes every year??? I think it is because they believe in the apparition, but they believe that Christ is immaculate and not Saint Mary.
Now, there are similarities in the day to day spirituality of our CHurches that did help me, namely:
We do magnify saint Mary in our Coptic Church. She has a VERY VERY High and honourable position. We say about her:
"O undefiled, pure, and saint in EVERYTHING and SINLESS, SAINT MARY." - but we don't say she is immaculate. We say she never sinnned, but she was born of two human beings, not of the Holy Spirit for her to be immaculate.
I'm not saying that it won't work out between you and your Coptic fiancé, but if you can love our faith because you truly believe it, then great. If not, you will have a hard time. Secondly, you are not Egyptian, how then can you understand the mass in Egypt?? This is a huge problem. It is even a bigger problem for your fiancé to talk to you during the mass. Girls and boys in a Coptic CHurch are kept far apart, even if they are husband and wife!!! Who will translate for you the sermons???
I enjoy going to catholic masses my catholic friends often ask me to pray in Prayer groups etc when I'm with them, so I don't see it as a problem, but I tell them i am coptic, and I never "become" Catholic. all that has happened is that I'm praying in a Church until i find a COptic Church to go to.
Although I have a huge Catholic circle of friends, i chose to marry a Coptic Girl - pure Orthodox, and the main reason for this was I cannot ask a girl who is practicing her faith as a Catholic to become Orthodox. It would have been impossible. If she is truly a Christian, in which they are, then I cannot ask her to leave the Church that raised her as a Christian. Although I never searched for differences when i was amongst catholics, THERE ARE differences. How serious are they? According to Iqbal and others, they see these differences as VERY SERIOUS. I see them as serious, but because they are hardly mentioned throughout the entire year in the CHurch I used to go to, you hardly notice it.
What did bother me about the Catholic Church, that i did find VERY VERY serious (more serious than our dogmatic differences) is it's lack of Spiritual traditions. I hated to see women standing on the alter. I hated to see the Eucharist being kept in a locked cupboard.
I did however love their zealousness for praising God, and for venerating Saint Mary. You will love our Church when you see how much we magnify saint Mary. We love her enormously. In fact, EVERY virtue, EVERY good deed can be shown through the life of Saint Mary in any COptic Sermon. This is something you will love in our Church.
Of course it is easier for you to become Orthodox than a protestant person, but as Cephas said, you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
I wouldnt marry a girl who changed her faith for me.
Now, for some real informative and factual information.
In our Church, there are many many servants who have married Catholics and made them into Orthodox Christians (as a result of the marriage). When the woman who was catholic before BECAME orthodox, there were HUGE problems. It took nearly 20 years, for one couple, to actually live in peace together. Her entire spirituality was Catholic. Her entire behaviour was Catholic. This is the biggest difference.
The Orthodox Church leads its children into repentance. PERIOD!!!
The Catholic Church leads its children into acceptance.
What happened was this: with this particular lady, she couldnt really take it when she read the Agpeya and we prayed :"of all sinners, amongst whom i am the 1st". She couldnt really pray that.
As Coptic Orthodox Chrisitans, we are always doing Matonia's (prostrations), and asking Lord to have mercy on us.
Catholics seem to ask God for everything. They ask God for the smallest things, and talk to God.
Coptic Christians, we do ask God for everything, but before we ask, we ask in a particular way. We have a way of praying. Catholics talk to God as if they are talking to their best friend. We cannot do that. Its not our way.
Sonya, in the Coptic Church, when they are praying on the dead. Whether he/she was murdered or died naturally or suddenly, the prayer we say FIRST is :"Let us give thanks to the beneficial and merciful God".
Our spirituality is A BIT different.
I came across this catholic community who were VERY CLOSE to us in their spirituality. The women used to wear head scarfs in CHurch, and the priest washed his hands before communion (same as us) etc... yet the ONLY problem was this: this particular catholic community was excommunicated from Rome. That worried me.
how are you,
hope u are doing better now,let me first congratulate u on you babptism and welcome u to our church
about ur issue
1 i think u need to defnitelyspend a lot more time in prayer and fasting
u see now u have addtional reposiblity and of course more blessing. u have to explore all avenues of this matter and take a dcsion that will lead u closer to God and ur family.
2 u need to... i think spent lot more time in seeing ur self grow in faith in the orthodox church and see ur self grow grow really firm. also establish a method of transition from ur previous life. i think u ahve already read on some very good points by QT_PA_2T that i guess u can look at. i think u need to take time and in a peroind literally sit down and write down on a peice of paper all the great things u know about ur church things u wanna keep and cherish then all the things u doint agree with
write the things u see great about coptic othodox and things that could trouble u write them down neatly numbered not out of emotions
look into the future and see waht are the things u would like to keep trust there are lots of things u SHOULD keep and bring to orthodoxy lik example the ablity to orgainse gee i feel waht u saying i converted 3 yrs agao and still feel that to thins day and that is here in aust not in eygpt lol sorry people no offense my humble true opinion.
onese u hae wrtten these present them to ur faunce [wrong spelling :-\] and have disscusions
then develop STRATGEY how U are going to handle this then work on these for a year or more.
with u faunce [wrong spelling :-\] and talk to him see how its going to work
example
1 might descide to move to europe
2 might decisde to live in eygpt
each will have its own problems find them sort them get a stratagy to tackle it
for starters e.g.
faunce [wrong spelling :-\] ur to be husband cant be on time to lazy then talk to priest both and work on a strategy u get waht i am saying
after u ahve done all this then reflect and come back here to this thread and tell us waht ur feed back is how u feeling have u overcome al u r doubts and problems then make a dcsion what CHANGERS NEED TO BE MADE WHERE U R BETTER OF ORTHODOXY OR CATHOLIC ie whuich way to lean more or less
personally i think if u grow in time u will be with us but that might take some time so u shouldint leave ur church or think of it that terms too much.personally i think u will be fine to stil go 50 to 50
id rather see u do that then suffer emotional distress and loneliness .
AFTER ALL THIS THEN THINK OF GOIN AHEAD TO GET MARRIED
OK did u read that i said after after not now
u cant get married at the same time maken a transition into orthodoxy do u get me... worse mistake of ur life sorry to be so harsh though big big problems could errupt
so do these things then think of getting marred seroiusly. ur faunce [wrong spelling :-\] should encourage u in this path. and u will avoid so many little things in marrage that become big mountians by doing this ...will make ur marraige life wit less bumbs
this might take 1- to 2- 3 yrs atleast i think
funny i see my self in the same position and thats waht i am going to do.
we will remember u in prayer
God bless
Frankly, Perhaps others here will kill me for saying this, but in all honesty, I don't think there is a huge problem in this of becoming Orthodox after being Catholic (unless you make it one). There would be a HUGE problem if you were protestant - YES!!! But not catholic.
Anyway, the main issue you face is not really the transition between catholicism to Orthodoxy, it is western to eastern culture. How will u cope going to mass that's ALL in arabic?? I don't even understand arabic that well!!!
Good luck!! and welcome again to the Coptic Orthodox Church.
BE CAREFUL!
As far as I know there is no divorce in coptic orthodox church
There is divorce only for reasons of adultary in the Coptic Church.
Sonya, here is a list of pros and cons with respect to your situation as a Catholic becoming Orthodox:
a) CONS:
1) Mixed culture - your fiance is obviously very egyptian, and he will live in Egypt
2) Not only is your culture mixed, but you don't speak arabic. Problems can happen here.
3) You are catholic and are becoming Orthodox for the wrong reasons. Orthodoxy is not far from Catholicism, and the 2 Churches respect one another, and I doubt you'll notice the difference, but there are differences. There are fruits in our Church, and I doubt that you'll gain them unless you speak arabic to understand the liturgy and sermons.
b) PROs
1) If you are both devout Christians and agree BEFORE marriage on what the children will be when they are born this will help
2) Arabic is just a language, anyone can learn it, but the culture is something people are used to. You both have to agree to be patient so as not to offend the other when it comes to making mistakes in that culture. The Egyptian culture is really complicated. Although its warm and charming and humerous, it can be mean and show no mercy if u make mistakes.
3) Orthodoxy is great. Orthos is greek for straight. Dthoxos is greek for worship. Putting the two together you have a great source of spiritual wealth. Even if you become Orthodox for the wrong reasons, given that u are catholic, it is not a bad starting point. like i said, it is better than protestants.
Now, i'm not trying to put u off, i'm trying to help u to decide.
If u tell me the the percentage of how "egyptian" your fiance is, it will help. If he's VERY VERY egyptianised, there could be a problem. If he's lived most (im talking about 99%) of his life in Europe as u have, then it won't be so bad.
You are in my prayers.
As far as cons:
- My fiance is open to travelling but he wants to live in Egypt finally.He is very patriotic and always keeps repeating that if all Christians left Egypt it would become islamic country.
- that is true.I dont speak arabic and it is so hard in life situations...
Pros
- we already agreed that our kids need to be raised in one church not to be confused
(coptic orthodox- we r planning to live in Egypt)
-Egyptian culture is very traditional and people do a lot of things to " show off" but if there is a will to know this culture well with the help of your partner I think it is a matter of time.
My fiance lived in Egypt all his life.He travelled to Europe but just for vists.He is very close to his church and his country.
Thank you for the reply.
As far as cons:
- My fiance is open to travelling but he wants to live in Egypt finally.He is very patriotic and always keeps repeating that if all Christians left Egypt it would become islamic country.
- that is true.I dont speak arabic and it is so hard in life situations...
Pros
- we already agreed that our kids need to be raised in one church not to be confused
(coptic orthodox- we r planning to live in Egypt)
-Egyptian culture is very traditional and people do a lot of things to " show off" but if there is a will to know this culture well with the help of your partner I think it is a matter of time.
My fiance lived in Egypt all his life.He travelled to Europe but just for vists.He is very close to his church and his country.
Well, i don't see that religion will be a problem here. THe Catholic Church has sacraments. We have the SAME sacraments. THey are not symbols of sacraments, but REAL sacraments. the only issue is how will u cope with the different culture?
[quote author=sonya111 link=topic=5708.msg76394#msg76394 date=1188764308]
Thank you for the reply.
As far as cons:
- My fiance is open to travelling but he wants to live in Egypt finally.He is very patriotic and always keeps repeating that if all Christians left Egypt it would become islamic country.
- that is true.I dont speak arabic and it is so hard in life situations...
Pros
- we already agreed that our kids need to be raised in one church not to be confused
(coptic orthodox- we r planning to live in Egypt)
-Egyptian culture is very traditional and people do a lot of things to " show off" but if there is a will to know this culture well with the help of your partner I think it is a matter of time.
My fiance lived in Egypt all his life.He travelled to Europe but just for vists.He is very close to his church and his country.
Well, i don't see that religion will be a problem here. THe Catholic Church has sacraments. We have the SAME sacraments. THey are not symbols of sacraments, but REAL sacraments. the only issue is how will u cope with the different culture?
I don't know if it seems that way to you, Sonya, but it is VERY VERY VERYYY different! make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Egypt is not an easy country to reside in, which is probably the reason why so many copts are living outside Egypt. Also, Egypt is an underdevelped country when it comes to men and women in society. Generally speaking, the roles of men and women in society are completely different. Of course, it is different from individual to individual but the general stereotype is the 'housewife' and the 'breadwinner' relationship.. did you discuss these sorts of roles with your fiance? if so, what was his responce?
God bless u n keep u dear
Every time discussions between me and him about religion come back :'( it is so hard... fighting or getting upset easily... we should be one in Christ... :-[
doesnt that tell u something....umm btw i was goin to apologise if i offened you in any way ;)..
i guess in ur situation which isnt a easy one at all...BUT it can be resolved...nothing is impossible with christ yer :)...u sound like a strong gurl whose trying to make ur relationship work but sumtimes u cant put a circle in a triangle sumtimes its not feasible....
i often think in ur situation..would you partner ever consider givin up wat u are willing to do mmm :-\....
God bles n take care :)
While I wish you and your fiancé all the best in the future, I now see the wisdom in choosing a future spouse who is culturally the same and from the same church. Please do not think I wish to discourage you in anyway, but these sort of disagreements and discussions will certainly be a major topic in your relationship. May the Lord guide you both to what is best.