Hi,
What does someone have to do to be saved?
I was having a chat with this protestant guy, who didnt care that i was Orthodox. He only cared that I wasnt saved. I said i was baptised. He said it wasnt baptism that saves me. I said I repented and confessed ALL my sins. He said it wasnt my repentance that saved me. I said I believed in Christ is my saviour. He said i still wasnt saved.
I didnt know what to do to make this guy happy.
I told him perhaps it would be better to leave me alone as an Orthodox?
Anyway, he said he was worried for my salvation as I wasn;t "BORN AGAIN"
I said :"No. I was born again, when I was baptised".
He said "No. But that's your own act. We are not saved by acts, but by God's grace. The fact that your salvation depends on your own action, u are not saved, as we are only saved by God's grace alone".
I said :"Sure..we are saved by God's grace, but we have also a contribution: We should have Holy Communion, repent and confess our sins, have faith etc... our acts".
Nothing I said seemed to make him happy. Nothing.
I told him we were Orthodox and we had the spiritual traditions of our CHurch Fathers. He didnt care much and said :"Its all wrong".
What can I do?
What can I say?
For him to go away
And come back Another day?
I can't speak Spanish, but I want to say "OLAY!"
OK?
Comments
I found this webpage online and it has your answer:
The Plan of Salvation is the first area adversely affected by the false doctrine of Faith Only. The Bible teaches that men are saved by sincerely obeying five steps: 1) Hear the gospel (Rom. 10:17), 2) Believe in Christ (Jn. 8:24), 3) Repent of sins (Lk. 13:3), 4) Confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9-10), and 5) be buried in baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; Col. 2:12).
Here is the actual site if you'd care to review it:
http://www.christianlibrary.org/authors/Gary_L_Grizzell/salvation/faithonly.htm
God Bless
Thanks for your answers.
Absolutely nothing you can say to this chap will convince him - you are speaking not only different earthly languages, but two different theological ones.
Protestants of some hues believe that they are 'saved' when they confess the name of Jesus. That is nice for them, and I hope they are right. We are a little more humble and believe that God decides such matters at the Last Judgement. What we can do in this life is as Gregory tells us in his excellent post.
At the Eucharistic Feast we encounter the Risen Lord, and by receiving Him into us, we take into ourselves some of His energies, and this helps us to grow in Him, and He in us; it sustains our soul and protects us from sin. Through confession we receive the sacrament of absolution, as the priest has the power to bind and loose from Our Lord - so if he says we are forgiven, so does He who made us.
Their way of thinking about these things is quite different from ours - and the best thing is to let him be happy thinking he's ok. God has His reasons for such things, and who are we to question Him?
In Christ,
Anglian
The first reason is that Christ Himself said so in John 6:53-54: Now, probably they will tell you this is all symbolic and nothing you quote on this will satisfy Him.
Perhaps quoting one of their favorite Apostle's St Paul will ring a bell:
From First Corinthians 11:23-32 Note that St Paul also LITTERALY uses the word Flesh and Blood of the Lord. If it's a mere symbol then why would a person need to examine himself, and why would a person eat and drink to damnation(verse 28)? Also, how come many are weak and sick, and many died because of having communion unworthily (verse 30)?
In Ephesus 1:20 Saint Paul says: A chapter later he uses a very odd verse (2:6): What does he mean by "made us sit together in heavenly places"? He made us sit together in heavenly places by the Ascension of Christ in the heaven, and we are united LITTERALY to this body, by having communion. We are litteraly part of the body of Christ, and he ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us. That is why so many times in the epistles it is mentioned that we are saved IN Christ.
Note that in the Old Testament it was forbidden to drink blood, because the soul (or life) of the animal is in its blood. Is it not a coincidence that we are told in the New Testament to drink the Blood of Christ? We drink His blood to have life in Him:
Christ liveth in me (Gal 2:20)
...according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus (2Tim 1:1)
Sorry for the many quotes, but communion is as biblical as it could get.
All of this will probably still not satisfy Him, and it's up to God to grant this person wisdom to understand the great mysteries of God.
(There's also many quotes from the church fathers, but protestants don't believe in their authority either, so i'd stick with the bible as that's the only authoritive source for protestants)
He said "No. But that's your own act. We are not saved by acts, but by God's grace. The fact that your salvation depends on your own action, u are not saved, as we are only saved by God's grace alone".
Baptism and what happens through the sacrament is not our act. We, by God's power and grace, die and resurrect with Him. and there are many verses that proves that.
Also how can receiving the Holy Spirit and act of a human who doesn't have Him?!!! let me say this, ask him than what will save you from this world???
Salvation or it's ways are very clear. and can easily be summarized in our 5 sacrements to get to heaven. (or 4 as Cefas says)
I know for sure protestants who care about their life and are 'devout' to their faith (religion) might pray a lot. They might think that as long as they believe in Jesus Christ, they will DEFINATELY be saved, no matter what they do here on earth. My two uncles from my mom side are a devout Protestant (pentecoste, to be exact)... they used to be Orthodox Christians ... but I guess the enemy stole them from this wonderful unique faith. May God bring them back to their original faith. Amen
I will talk more... i have to go now... i have few things to say.
bye!
What makes me FRUSTRATED is this:
I told them that although Christ came to die for our sins, He wants us to confess our sins, and when we confess them we have absolution of them. The protestant man said :"No. They are already forgiven. What if u do the SAME sin again?" - it is endless.
Im concerned greatly as there were many protestants entering our Church and being baptised as Orthodox. Like most protestants, they are devout Christians and know the Bible inside out.
However, even within our Church, those that did become Orthodox after leaving their Protestant churches have not really changed their beliefs. Confession is not so important. One even told me :"But we are full of sin, what use is confession?"
I said :"Well, that's not really true. I think we are prone to sin, yes, but our new nature we take from our Baptism should be kept Holy. It isn't. We need to make sure this garment of Christ we perpetually wear is kept Holy from the day of our baptism. It is kept clean through constant communion and confession. "
You see, to confess, one has to judge himself/herself. It is a self-analysis and self-examination where one's thoughts and acts are exposed before a priest after cross-referencing them (our actions) with the ideal standard Christ set for us to live by. But then it occurred to me:
These people don't have priests. They therefore DO NOT have confession and will find ways to avoid this entire element of spirituality. What's worse is, i told them this:
"Christ came to die for our sins. He came. He was suffered, was crucified and died on the cross. He was burried and then rose from the dead on the 3rd day. As soon as His mission was complete, He appeared to His saintly apostles and pur disciples saying :"RECEIVE UNTO U THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOSE SINS U FORGIVE ARE FORGIVEN, WHOSE SINS U RETAIN ARE RETAINED"
Then I said :"After completing His mission to give us salvation, the FIRST THING CHrist did was HE INSTITUTED THE SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION. He didnt leave it 3 years later and appeared to Saint Paul or Peter in a dream saying :"Ohh.. by the way, now you have the Holy Spirit, you should take confessions" . IT WAS THE FIRST THING OUR LORD MENTIONED WHEN HE APPEARED TO HIS APOSTLES AFTER HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.
So, WE DO have a role to contribute in our salvation: Christ GAVE US that mandate, that action that WE can be also active and not lazy in our own salvation: And that is confession.
Confession is SOOO important because If Christ came to die for my sins, and i do not confess that I have sinned nor recognise that what I have done is a sin, it means whatever sin I DID do (WITHOUT CONFESSING), I AM MAKING A MOCKERY OF HIS SALVATION !!!!! I am literally saying :"well.. why should i confess for, i'm saved. what i've done , i've done, and its not wrong anyway"
This is awful. But less worse than this, but just as bad is to say "Well.. i've sinned, it is not right, but I'm saved"
Even after telling him this, he said to me :"Ahh... its YOUR ACTION still, and we are saved by grace alone".
I told him that if you sinned and u CONFESSED SINCERELY and REPENTED for your sins, IT WAS FORGIVEN. He said "No... because Saint Paul says that murderers will not enter the Kingdom of heaven - so, if u murdered, u cannot enter the kingdom of heaven".
Then i said to him :"Listen, why don't u go and evangelise your OWN protestant groups who cannot discern between right and wrong? Why don't u go and evangelise people who do not even know that Jesus Christ IS Lord" ? Huh!?
He said "Because there are many Christians who do so much effort like you (like me) that waste their time in confessing their sins and worrying about what they have done wrong rather than just living in His Grace knowing that you are saved".
NOW THAT's EXACTLY WHAT THIS COPTIC GUY (WHO BECAME COPTIC) TOLD ME IN THE FRIDAY MEETING AT CHURCH!!!
And then this protestant Coptic Orthodox girl told me :"Yeah, but when u confess, do u feel ANY BETTER?? U are still a sinner!? "
I said :"YES! My joy is returned to me that I lost when I disobeyed God's Commandments". I feel GREAT AFTER CONFESSION.
What is going on!!?? We pay priests a good salary in Europe and its not only to do the mass... its to take confession also. I mean, its part of their job spec. Why are they interested in destroying this wonerful sacrament of confession!???