Where does God find us? And where do we find God?

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hey Doubting Thomas, this is for u bud :-)


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I also believe that it is a good thing to question God.  There is a Jewish saying that says, "You can either be for God or against God, but not without God."  As we wrestle with God, and question God, we enter into dialog and even into a more mature relationship with God.  By holding God accountable and finding that God always holds up with flying colors, we see how God calls us into relationship where we are.  God does not expect us to be saints, but rather finds us where we are and loves us where we are.  God then does his amazing work of working in our very souls, and we are then called to God, by God, for God.
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hey Taylor,
if am not mistaken this is my first reply for this post...am not going to write much since everything i would ask or say was already said.
just wanted to ask one question thoo. about what u said:

Quote from: desertnurse on Today at 21:51:16
God does not expect us to be saints, but rather finds us where we are and loves us where we are.

yes God doesn't expect us to be saints but doesn't He love us to be with Him as He paid our dues for us?!!!
also of course He loves us....that's why He saved us.....but wouldn't only be right to be with Him where He is instead of where we are?!!!
))

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Excellent point!!!

I think that in that light I might elaborate:  God finds us where we are.  That is not to say that we have no where else to go. We then begin to grow.  It is a statement of how God comes to us.  In Protestant Christianity, there is a deep feeling of God doing all the work.  Even our faith is a gift from God.  Our faith is not our work, but a gift from God and therefore God's work.  God then finds the sinner where the sinner is and calls, "Come, follow me."  It is at this point that many of us fall into relationship and communion with God.  There is also a feeling that God allows us to suffer but suffers with the sufferer.
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Please add your thoughts!!

Taylor
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Comments

  • Opps!!  I forgot to add this:


    ((
    Our faith is not our work, but a gift from God and therefore God's work.  God then finds the sinner where the sinner is and calls, "Come, follow me."
    actually i think of it in a diffrent way. faith is urs. God gives u every way to come to Him and than u have to have faith and be with Him. it's ur call to follow Him or not. after all, it's ur faith. God already knows every thing. and than u have to have the works that actaully prove your faith. that's why salvation is by faith and works as it was said in the other topic.

    to me it like what Jesus did. He loves us, resamples faith. but through that love, He came and saved us. which resample the work that He did upon His love.
    ))


    taylor
  • Dear Taylor,

    God does, indeed, find us where we are - as St. Paul discovered.

    This, from the Coptic Synaxarium Readings for Baunah 24, gives you an example of how remarkable He is in how, and who, He finds:
    [quote]_____________________________________________________________________________[1] The Martyrdom of the Great Saint Anba Moses the Black
    On this day, St. Moses the Black, whose life story is remarkable, was martyred. This saint took the Kingdom of Heaven by force, exactly as our Lord Jesus Christ said: "The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force." (Matthew 11:12).

    In his early life, St. Moses was a slave to people who worshiped the sun. He was a mighty man who loved to eat and drink excessively. He killed, robbed and committed all evil. No one could stand up before him, or challenge him.

    On many occasions, he lifted up his eyes to look to the sun and to talk to it saying, "O Sun!! if you are God, let me know it." Then he said, "And you O God whom I do not know, let me know you."

    One day, he heard someone saying to him, "The monks of Wadi El-Natroun know the real God. Go to them and they will tell you." Instantly, he rose up, girded his sword and went to the wilderness of Shiheat. He met St. Esidorous (Isidore) the priest, who was frightened when he saw him, because of his appearance. St. Moses comforted him by saying that he came to the monks so that they might let him know the real God. St. Esidorous took him to St. Macarius the Great, who preached to him, taught him the faith and baptized him. He accepted St. Moses as a monk and taught him to live in the wilderness. St. Moses dashed in many worships, and fought a spiritual fight which was greater than that fought by many saints.

    However, the devil fought him intensively with his old habits of excessive eating, drinking, and fornication. He informed St. Esidorous about everything which came upon him in his fight with the Enemy. He comforted him and taught him how to overcome the snares of the devil.

    It was told about him, that when the elders of the Monastery slept, he used to go round to their cells and take their water pots and fill them with water which he brought from a well at a far distance from the monastery. After many years in spiritual struggle, the devil envied him, and struck him with a sore on his foot which made him sick and bed-ridden. When he knew that this was from the devil, he increased in his asceticism and worship, until his body became as a burnt wood. God looked to his patience, healed his illness, and removed all his pains. The blessing of the Lord came upon him.

    After a while, he became the Father and the spiritual guide of 500 brothers, who elected him to be ordained a priest. When he came before the Patriarch to be ordained, the patriarch wanted to test him by asking the elders, "Who brought this black here? Cast him out." He obeyed, and left saying to himself, "It is good what they have done to you, O black colored one." The Patriarch, however, called him back and ordained him a priest, and said to him, "Moses, all of you now has become white."

    One day, he went with some elders to St. Macarius the Great, who said to them, "I see among you one to whom belong the crown of martyrdom." St. Moses answered him, "Probably it is me, for it is written: 'For all they that take with the sword, shall perish with the sword.'" (Matt. 26:25)

    After they returned to the monastery, it did not take long until the Barbarians attacked the monastery. He told the brethren, "Whoever wants to escape, let him escape." They asked him, "And you O father, why do you not also escape?" He replied that he had waited for this day for long time. The Barbarians entered the monastery and killed him with seven other brothers. One of the brethren was hiding, and saw the angel of the Lord, with a crown in his hand standing by and waiting for him. He went out from his hiding place to the Barbarians and he was also martyred.

    Beloved Ones, contemplate in the power of repentance, and what it did. It transformed an infidel slave who was a murderer, adulterer and robber into a great Father, teacher, comforter, and priest who wrote rules for the monks, and saint whose name is mentioned on the altar in our prayers. His Body is located now in the Monastery of El-Baramouse.

    May his prayers be with us and Glory be to God for ever. Amen.

    It is, I hope you will agree, a most remarkable story - it always inspires me, sinner that I am.

    In Christ,

    John
  • Dear John,

    Thanks for bringing the example of St. Moses the Black into the discussion. I believe the account not only answers the question of where God can find us, but also the second question posed by the title of this thread, viz. "where do we find God?"

    In the Synaxarium account you quoted, it states:

    One day, he heard someone saying to him, "The monks of Wadi El-Natroun know the real God. Go to them and they will tell you." Instantly, he rose up, girded his sword and went to the wilderness of Shiheat. He met St. Esidorous (Isidore) the priest, who was frightened when he saw him, because of his appearance. St. Moses comforted him by saying that he came to the monks so that they might let him know the real God. St. Esidorous took him to St. Macarius the Great, who preached to him, taught him the faith and baptized him.

    The text indicates that after hearing his call in the wilderness, God then directed him to that place where he would be able to experience the One Whom he had been longing for in the fullest manner: the One Church. St. Moses humbly submitted himself to the God-ordained Saint, Isidoros, and accepted the Faith of the Fathers, which the Almighty Father lead him to.

    Communion with the Church, through baptism, was the direction in which the great St. Moses was directed. He was not inspired to begin or lead his own community/"church" apart from the Apostolic Church, for how could he when God made it clear through His holy Apostles, that there is but one Church, of one faith, and one baptism/communion--one Body of Christ, alone through which we have access to the Head? And what is this one Church, but the Church established by the Apostles--the Orthodox Church which maintains that Apostolic Communion till this very day, and forevermore? And what is this one faith, but the unadulterated Faith of the Apostles, handed down and entrusted to their successors, and preserved by the Spirit--the faith of the Holy Fathers, and the Three Ecumenical Councils? And what is this one baptism, but that which is performed by water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, by the agency of those who derive the Grace of their priesthood authentically in the manner insituted by Christ--not by men, pretenders and dissenters, who declare their own authority and rise up as self-proclaimed priests and bishops in the manner of the rebellion of Korah and his men?
  • Dear Taylor,

    In Protestant Christianity, there is a deep feeling of God doing all the work.  Even our faith is a gift from God.  Our faith is not our work, but a gift from God and therefore God's work.

    This represents, no doubt, from the Orthodox perspective, a misguided understanding of the Scriptures, and the Apostolic witness in general, which indicate, in contrast, the doctrine of synergy. God does not do everything, simply because He has created man in His Image and hence with full autonomy and ability to thus accept or reject His call. It is a consistent He-calls/I-respond situation, and never a He-grabs-and-forces/I-do-nothing situation.

    Protestantism, as well-intentioned as it may be in trying to negate man's role in God's salvific plan for the world, strips man of the purpose and nobility that God Himself endowed upon man out of His own Grace and Good-will by creating man in His Image. It is because we possess such qualities by grace, rather than by nature, that even the glory of man's accomplishments by his own works, are ultimately to be relegated to God, for had God not created man in His image, man's works would not have been able to succeed in such accomplishments in the first place.

    Our Faith is a balance of what God has offered us, and of what we have received of that which is offered. The level of our reception is our own work, yet in working out our salvation, we do nothing more but realise the potential which stems from our being created in His image, and in this sense we glorify Him, for in His goodness, He has allowed man to share in His nobility inasmuch as we reflect that nobility by bearing His image.

  • Absolutely fascinating!!!  Coptic theology is quite rich!

    Taylor
  • [quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5453.msg72637#msg72637 date=1182104323]
    Absolutely fascinating!!!  Coptic theology is quite rich!

    Taylor


    Indeed it is; it reflects almost 2, 000 years of the living and Grace-filled experience of our Holy Fathers, Heirarchs and Ascetics, who all shared a common conscience guided and illumined by the Spirit of Truth.
  • Well said, Iqbal!

    One of the great comforts and wonders of the Coptic Church is that we are part of a communion with the living and the reposed; it is not by the light of our feeble intellects, or even by own own struggling faith that we see, but with the illumination of the whole Church, and its Faithful departed, the Fathers, the Confessors and the Saints.

    What we find in Orthodoxy is that Faith once delivered to the Apostles - in all its fulness; we are indeed blessed.

    In Christ,

    John
  • Hello. I am byrdele (nick name byrdie with the Yiddish affectionate given me by some dear Jewish friends). I am also not Coptic, but am Catholic and rest assured I am here for interest's sake: not to convert, argue, be converted, etc. So I will be nice :)

    In your talk about the Protestant view of faith, having been one for 20 years (mostly fundamentalist/evangelical) I am not sure what you mean about God doing all the work.

    I know that when I was in it, and what drove me from it back to Catholicism (I was a cradle Catholic) was that I no longer believed that "once saved always saved" and "works as evidence of faith". I now, as a Catholic, I don't know if your faith teaches the same or not, that I can step out of grace, that it is my free choice but that God does make it hard (lost sheep, lost coin, lost son among other parables Christ told). I really do not wish to be separated from Him, because He becomes more real to me every day and I grieve when I have even started to turn away.

    In Catholicism, we believe that we are saved by grace through the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ and that faith and works are so combined so as they cannot be separated.

    Is any of this what you all believe? Or do you believe differently. I am still curious as to what you mean about God doing all the work. I do know Protestants who believe that God will practically make their decision for them and they will know through signs. I believe that God talks to us in many ways - through our deepest instincts, common sense, sometimes out loud, sometimes through dreams, sometimes in shutting a door and opening another.

    I'm looking forward to you answer on how we differ and agree, and what exactly was meant by the statement about Protestants. Thank you and God bless.

  • Hi Byrdele!!

    Welcome to this Coptic portal.  I have been most welcomed here, and I'm sure you will be too. 

    Protestant theology is as diverse as her people.  It is very difficult to nail down what the average Protestant believes.  Personally, I see this as our greatest strength. 

    The idea that God does all the work is found in Lutheran and Reformed theology.  Luther believed that not only is Grace a divine gift from God, but also that Faith itself was a gift from God.  Luther believed that God initiated communion with each person through Faith that was given by God to each believer.  Therefore, because God is initiating it, God then is really doing all the work, and we are simply receiving the Gifts of God.

    Your background, however probably does not come from Lutheran theology.  There were the original Protestants: the Anglicans (Church of England), the Lutherans (Church of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Prussia, etc.), the Reformed (Church of Scotland, Congregationalist, Presbyterians, Reformed Church of the Netherlands, Huguenots, etc), and the Anabaptist (Mennonites and the Brethren).

    And then there was a second wave:  the Baptist, the Methodist, the Quakers,

    Then another wave, Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Science, Christian (Disciples of Christ), etc

    Then another wave, Pentecostals, Adventist, Born Agains, etc

    and so forth til today.

    The older the Protestant body, the more similar it is the the Catholic Church, the newer the body, the less similar it is to the Catholic Church.  If you went to a Lutheran service, you would recognized almost all of it as being the 16th century mass.  This is especially true with the Anglican Communion who see themselves as the "via media" or the middle way between Protestant and Catholic.

    Protestants are still dividing and uniting.  They believe that they are correcting the liturgical trappings and unnecessary pomp and circumstance of the Catholic and Eastern churches which they see as vain and non-scriptural.  With the call of "Sola Scriptura" they are literally seeking to recreate the original church that Christ Jesus created.  Most of them also claim to be part of the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, in direct line to the Apostles.

    Taylor
  • Just for kicks and giggles:

    Christian divisions

    There is a diversity of doctrines and practices among groups calling themselves Christian. These groups are sometimes classified under denominations, though for theological reasons many groups reject this classification system.[81] Christianity may be broadly represented as being divided into three main groupings:[82]

        * Roman Catholicism: The Roman Catholic Church, the largest single body, includes the Latin Rite and totals more than 1 billion baptized members.[3]
        * Eastern Christianity: Eastern Orthodox Churches, Oriental Orthodox Churches, the 100,000 member Assyrian Church of the East,[83], Eastern Catholic Churches, and others with a combined membership of more than 300 million baptized members.[3]
        * Anglicanism: The Anglican Communion is a group of Anglican and Episcopal Churches that are descended from the Church of England. Most Anglicans don't consider themselves Protestant or Catholic but believe that the Church of England always existed and wasn't formed during the Reformation but rather broke away from the Church of Rome.
        * Protestantism: Groups such as Lutherans, Reformed/Presbyterians, Congregational/United Church of Christ, Evangelical, Charismatic, Baptists, Methodists, Nazarenes, Anabaptists, Seventh-day Adventists, Waldensians and Pentecostals. The oldest of these separated from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century Protestant Reformation, followed in many cases by further divisions. Estimates of the total number of Protestants are very uncertain, partly because of the difficulty in determining which denominations should be placed in this category, but it seems to be unquestionable that Protestantism is the second major branch of Christianity (after Roman Catholicism) in number of followers.[3]

    Some Protestants identify themselves simply as Christian, or born-again Christian; they typically distance themselves from the confessionalism of other Protestant communities[84] by calling themselves "non-denominational" — often founded by individual pastors, they have little affiliation with historic denominations. Finally, various small communities, such as the Old Catholic and Independent Catholic Churches, are similar in name to the Roman Catholic Church, but are not in communion with the See of Rome (the Old Catholic church is in communion with the Anglican Church).The Roman Catholic Church was simply called the "Catholic Church" until other groups started considering themselves "Catholic". The term "Roman Catholic" was made to distinguish the Roman Catholics from other groups.[85][86][87]

    Restorationists, are historically connected to the Protestant Reformation,[88] do not usually describe themselves as "reforming" a Christian Church continuously existing from the time of Jesus, but as restoring the Church that they believe was lost at some point. Restorationists include Churches of Christ with 2.6 million members, Disciples of Christ with 800,000 members,[89] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with 12 million members,[3] and Jehovah’s Witnesses with 6.6 million members.[90] Though Restorationists have some superficial similarities, their doctrine and practices vary significantly.

    Taylor
  • Dear Taylor, Dear byrdele,

    One of the most interesting aspects of the Orthodox Church is that everything that is orthodox in the other Christian denominations is in it, but that each of the others has a part of the fulness of the Faith. The others have either added something to it, like the Catholics with Papal Infallibility and the filioque clause, or else they have taken something away (like some of the Protestants who do not have bishops and all the sacraments.

    This is not to criticise others, but simply to say that for those who are Orthodox, we know the fulness of the Faith is to be found where we are; Orthodoxy has added and subtracted nothing from the Faith as passed by Our Lord to the Apostles and through them to the Fathers; we rest upon the fulness of scripture as read in the traditions of the Church; we believe in salvation by Grace and by works; and we believe that Our Lord was fully human and fully divine, but that the two natures did not mix, even for a moment. The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed expresses what we believe now and have always believed.

    Where salvation is concerned, we believe in theosis - that is the process of transforming our natures, marred as they are by the effects of sin, through the sacraments and the teachings of the Church; so we do not think we are 'saved' in a moment. but by Him through a process in this life, and then into the next. We do not hold the view of Original Sin which many Catholics profess, that is the idea that our nature is depraved and sinful in itself; we were made in His image, which was then marred by the effects of the Fall; theosis can begin to transform this scarred image.

    The Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. marked the beginning of a process which divided the undivided Church; on both side, Eastern and Oriental, there are those who will disagree with that statement and say that their Church is the undivided Church. It is a point of view held sincerely by many good people on both sides.

    Many of us see it rather a rift in a family, and we hope and pray for the eventual reconciliation.

    I hope that is of some help - and that those who know much more than I will correct me where I have erred.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • Dear Taylor,

    With the call of "Sola Scriptura" they are literally seeking to recreate the original church that Christ Jesus created.  Most of them also claim to be part of the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, in direct line to the Apostles.

    Unfortunately, their search is in vain. The early Church was not sola scripturist; the early Church preceded the Scriptures; she authored the Scriptures; and through the Spirit she interprets the Scriptures. Sola scriptura is neither historical nor is it scriptural; it's one of the most dangerous Protestant heresies invented--a man-mad tradition if you will, and it's one of the greatest stumbling blocks preventing Protestants from a true living relationship with Christ.

    Protestant theology is as diverse as her people.  It is very difficult to nail down what the average Protestant believes.  Personally, I see this as our greatest strength. 

    Division represents weakness, not strength. The early Church was the Church of "one faith", not many. There is but One Truth; the proposition of "many truths" is self-contradictory. Protestantism is a kingdom divided against itself, and as such, cannot and has never stood, and will never be able to stand, on its own two feet. As well-intentioned as its beginning may have been, its separation from the RC Church has not brought it any closer to true living Communion with the living Christ.

    Therefore, because God is initiating it, God then is really doing all the work, and we are simply receiving the Gifts of God.

    Which is why Protestantism reduces man to a mere animal. It strips him of his God-endowed autonomy and the nobility which God granted him by calling him to be His "co-worker." It in effect challenges man's very ontological identity as one who is made in the Image and Likeness of God. We did not usurp this great honour, it was God Himself who out of His goodness and love granted it to us; why do Protestants persist in denying this honour? Why can't they just accept it and give glory and thanks to God as the Apostolic Church has done so for the last 2, 000 years?
  • Do you have any idea how offensive that was to me?  Please don't belittle my own faith traditions.

    Taylor
  • Sorry Taylor. Please forgive me.

    Everyone won't be able to see but before the prior post, I had posted a judgmental and strongly Anti-Mormon essay on why I can't consider Mormonism as Christian. In that vein, I have really hurt Taylor and take complete responsibility for what I said and will accept whatever criticism that befalls me.

    I have deleted that post because its defamation of his faith was uncalled for, and did not want others to continue with the theme.
  • Our wounds are healed.  :P

    So, Doubting Thomas

    Where did (does) God find you?  Do you have any stories of how God has reached into your life?

    Taylor
  • Thanks for the welcomes! I appreciate that.

    Actually, my background does include Lutheranism. I left Catholicism because at the time, Vatican II had accidently released complete chaos and everyone was literally doing or believing "his own thing". Pope John Paul II and the then Cardinal Ratzinger brought that down under control. As in every church, you still find the "cafeteria Catholics", but I have found that across the board.

    Protestants really do not reduce a man to an animal, from what I can see. Actually, they strove to get away from what was going on in the Catholic church in which, during the middle ages, the physical part of a human was seen as base. We are not that way anymore, btw :)

    I also believed and now believe we are not so much switching in and out of salvation,  but that salvation is a journey. When I left Protestantism I left because I had doubted so much in the once saved always saved, and works being the evidence of faith.  There was just too much Biblical evidence to the contrary, and when I found out that Luther tried to remove the book of James from the NT because it offended his theories (they did manage to remove much of the OT) I had to actually laugh. Although I know many Protestants whose works truly are the evidence of their faith, although it might seem like splitting hairs, when you believe that your faith and works (including the sacraments of the Church) are one and the same, at least in my case, I feel a lot more responsibility for what I do and say and how I love God. Do I truly love Him? Then I will strive to obey Him. I think you all and we believe about the same thing about salvation, if I am correct. What is funny, someone said that the Protestant churches are, in my words, reforming, and re-forming, and re-forming... that is true. That is why I left. I feel more secure on God and His plan for salvation now, believing that I must "work out my salvation with fear and trembling" then I did in the once saved always saved, because there were so many variants that which could I believe? I am not knocking Protestants themselves, they are like anyone else. Some live their faith, some don't, some get knocked down for a while and have to get up by God's grace, some stay down. I think that aptly describes people from any religion.

    regards, thks for the warm welcome! :)

    byrdele

  • Dear Taylor and DT,

    With all due respect to Taylor, as a human being, as a creation of God in His Image, and as an evidently sincere person at heart, there is no room in Orthodoxy to water down matters of truth pertaining to dogma and I would hope that any propogation of the Orthodox perspective on an Orthodox website is respected (upon the condition it does not involve ad hominem attacks and that it strictly concerns matters of faith). It would be unfair and uncritical, in that regard, to impute notions of disrespect or offense or belittlement. The Apostles were explicitly critical of, and harsh to distortions of the Truth, and we should be no less, for the sake of honesty (to ourselves, to those we're holding discourse with, and before God as representatives of His Name) and integrity and unto the glory of God and the salvation of the world.

    As far as i'm concerned, adherence to the faith confirmed by the Holy Spirit at Nicea (in 325) amongst the Holy Saints of the Apostolic Church--which includes first and foremost our own Coptic Orthodox Patriarch, Saint Athanasius, is essential to defining one as a Christian (at the very least!). The line needs to be drawn somewhere. The proposition that one's subjective allegiance to Christ in whatever shape or form is enough to classify that one as a Christian, fails by reductio ad absurdum, for it would entail that we start calling Muslims or even Raellians Christians.

    Taylor, I know you have made it very clear that you are a "pluralist", but as far as Orthodoxy is concerned, such an ecclesiology is foreign to the Gospel preaching of One Body, One Faith, One Bread, and One baptism. We define respect of other traditions differently to you; respect is not acceptance of validity, it is recognition of one's autonomy to believe and practice as they so wish, it entails love for them in spite of the falsehoods they cling to rather than in denial of those very falsehoods. Love is not compatible with compromise of the Truth. I hope you can understand our perspective here; though you certainly do not have to agree with it. Ecumenism, in the sense that the Church has always understood it, is not a blind dismissal and neglect of the divisions that exist, but honest and sincere dialogue seeking to overcome such divisions. As you can see, our views are diametrically opposed in this respect.
  • [quote author=byrdele link=topic=5453.msg73226#msg73226 date=1182761656]
    Protestants really do not reduce a man to an animal, from what I can see. Actually, they strove to get away from what was going on in the Catholic church in which, during the middle ages, the physical part of a human was seen as base. We are not that way anymore, btw :)

    I think you dismissed my point for reasons that are absolutely unrelated to the context in which I made the remarks I did. One of the distinguishing factors between men and animals is that we are created in God's Image and after His Likeness, whereas animals are not. By bearing His Image, we reflect God in some way (that is after all what an image is--a reflection of its prototype). God allows us to reflect Him in the quality of autonomy. Being autonomous we have the ability to receive the measure of Faith graciuously endowed in the measure we choose. We are not static mechanical receptors of Faith; we need to realise it in our own lives, hence the Church's strict ascetic regulations.
  • Dear Iqbal,

    I am not shrinking away from my views of Mormonism, and their claim to Christianity. I do not believe there is any way that reconciliation between our faiths, as they are very distinct. However, I do not believe it is appropriate to discuss this in this thread. Taylor is trying to find our thinkings on certain matters- not what we believe in his former faith. It is best that we do not exact or put him in a position to defend his former faith. This forum is to discuss our position in that which is asked of us. If Taylor or anyone else was asking whether we could consider Mormonism into ecumenism, then we could discuss these things.

  • Dear Taylor,

    In Protestant Christianity, there is a deep feeling of God doing all the work.  Even our faith is a gift from God.  Our faith is not our work, but a gift from God and therefore God's work.

    Excuse me for interrupted this thread which seems to have nearly run its course.

    As someone way older than the average on Tasbeha I must put it to you that I have tried other religions for reasons both worldly and seemingly noble and I always come back to Jesus Christ. I've actually tried not to be a Christian (Please God let me remain Orthodox now.)

    My question is, why has God given me so many chances and yet why is no one else I know remotely interested in Orthodoxy or, indeed Christianity of an colour? It would seem that God wants me, fairly unpleasant piece of work that I am and yet not others, equally good or bad. Is their something in the doctrine of predestination or are there other explanations why some are chosen? (My course isn't run yet!)

    Just to let you know both my father and mother died without any sign that death wasn't just odd and not something that one needed to be fortified against with the shield of faith.

    God bless you
  • Whoops!

    Sorry I've presented it wrongly. Hope you will read it anyway

    Aidan
  • Dear Aidan,

    My question is, why has God given me so many chances and yet why is no one else I know remotely interested in Orthodoxy or, indeed Christianity of an colour? It would seem that God wants me, fairly unpleasant piece of work that I am and yet not others, equally good or bad. Is their something in the doctrine of predestination or are there other explanations why some are chosen?

    Thank you for an interesting post. One possible answer to your question is that He wants the others too - but they, unlike you, do not know they want Him too. Clearly, despite all you have been through, you have always been open to Him - even if you have not always seen it.

    He has already found us - but we can be deaf and blind. That is why, even when we have found Him, we need His Church to help us walk in His way.

    May He confirm and strengthen you in your Faith.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • Aidan,

    I think your question is one that has troubled many people in each and every Abrahamic faith. 
    I can give you the wisdom of various forms of theology, but I can not give you an answer.

    All I can tell you is that I have done the same thing.  I have been through most of the religions in the world.  For some reason, God keeps calling me back to Christianity. 

    (But in Christianity, I am still searching.)  I think God leads us through much, and I feel like when I look back at the various paths I chose, I still see God, guiding my path.

    Thanks be to God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

    Taylor
  • Dear Iqbal,

    Thanks for the clarification, I did misunderstand. I agree with you, actually.

    Dear Taylor,

    I for one appreciate your respect for everyone regardless of their views. Especially as I am an outsider. So far people have been warm in their welcome, but as I am considered in heresy by the Coptic Church, there might be some wariness as to why I am here. As I said, I am here to learn more. I am interested in the Coptic Church - I am already impressed with the spirituality I have seen in the threads.

    We do have to have respect and love for all humanity, regardless of their views, as everyone is created, as Iqbal points out and whose view is based on the Bible, in God's image. Christ died for all of us. Without that respect and love, people will close their ears to the Gospel. I won't go into Mormonism here, but will say that I unsubscribed to a Catholic apologetics magazine because it published a very good article on the beliefs and practices of LDS, but did so in such a sarcastic, non-humble attitude that I phoned the 800 number and told them why I wanted to break my subscription. That is no attitude for a Christian to have.

    I grew up in the Bible Belt of America and many people there consider me non-Christian because I am Catholic. I find that most of them are totally uninformed or partially informed on what we really believe. I do get angry at ignorance - people should research what they hear and THEN make a decision. If people are open, I explain away their misinformation. If they are not, I either shrug it off or have been known to say "Yeah, so burn me at the steak and make mine rare while you're at it." That is not a nice reply. I should be humble and just suggest that they research before coming to conclusions. And I tell them to consult their Bibles. I told someone in my family recently to consult Mark 7:8 about tithing vs. giving to needy parents, which comes first. I think it's obvious. However, he has decided to tithe at our Mom's expense. So people will only hear what they want to, and people will still accuse me of being non-Christian, and I don't usually take offense. Some people who feel that way are telling me that out of love. It is a hard thing to do - to love God and humanity enough to tell someone that she is not a Christian. So I just tell them I appreciate their efforts, but...

    Anyway, I am way off topic. I will cease and desist on this and get back on. I am not here to express my views as much as to learn of the Coptic Church, so I want to get back to that goal.

    God bless.

    byrdele
  • Dear byrdele,

    When you write

    most of them are totally uninformed or partially informed on what we really believe. I

    you touch on a subject dear to my heart.

    So often people who are condemnatory of others' beliefs are so on the basis of what they have been told about those beliefs; how seldom do they ask what those people actually say they believe; how rare it is to find one such as yourself who genuinely wishes to know what it is that another Church preaches and teaches; you are very welcome here - as a sister in Christ, and as a seeker after the Truth.

    Now I know some will say that you cannot be my sister in Christ as you are a Catholic and I am an Orthodox Christian; well, let them; that simply saddens me, since I consider all those who confess the Risen Lord my brothers and sisters - rather in the Biblical manner where Jesus is said to have 'brothers' but we know they were near relatives such as cousins.

    I would be honoured to have a 'sister' in Christ who takes your view. Finding out what we all really believe is the first step towards understanding. That does not mean we end up with a mish-mash in which no one believes anything, or we all say everything is OK - it just means that we witness best to Him when we greet each other with love.

    In Christ,

    John
  • wow this is a interesting discussion.....i think the difference is that one is searching for meaning and the other is laid back and doesnt consider much about life
    when you search for meaning and answers...God oftens finds avenues to reach you
    God works in mysterious ways....its incredible
    this site is attracting a very diverse group of people which is AWESOME :)
    two types of behaviours people demonstarte to life's challenges;
    1) ppl feel like victims and drown in their sorrows
    2) ppl seeking out more from life and attempting to improve their qualitity of life

    God bless n take care
  • Dear Kerestina,

    Good points.

    In John 13:34-5 we are given

    34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

    another in John 15:12

    12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

    In Romans 13:8 we are told:

    8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

    Or my favourite, 1 Peter 5:14

    14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to you all who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

    All who are in Christ Jesus. Now we can be narrow here and say only those in our Church, but that does not really seem in the spirit of Our Lord. As St. John tells us in 2 John 1:5-6

    5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.
    6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

    That surely is what Our Lord Himself tells us in Luke 6:35-38:

    35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
    36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
    37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
    38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.

    Well, our fellow Christians are certainly not 'enemies', but even if they were, the command is the same and is clear.

    As He told us in Matthew 5:44-48:

    44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
    45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
    46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
    47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
    48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect

    It seems to me that byrdele is doing what we are all bidden to do. As you say, Kerestina, her contributions here are most welcome.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • Anglican...im not sure if ive ever mentioned this....but i think your an AWESOME man.......

    May the lord bless u and keep u

  • Dear Kerestina,

    That is too kind of you.

    Here we are all brothers and sisters helping each other to live the life in Christ to which we are called; if we help each other here, as we do, then the work we do is awesome, because it bears witness to whose children we are.

    I am most grateful to you, and to the others here who keep our conversations going, and try to help all those who pass this way; this site it a great blessing, and we are all in debt to Iqbal and the other moderators - who do indeed do an awesome job.

    Many of us here have the good fortune to be part of the great Coptic Orthodox Church, which throughout the centuries has borne witness as the suffering servant, and I hope that in our small way, each of here can try to be a credit to that tradition - even as this site most certainly is.

    If we can bear witness to what is one of my favourite scriptural texts, 1 Corinthians 13: 1-7, we do well:

    1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
    2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
    3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
    4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
    5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
    6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
    7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    As verse 13 tells us so profoundly:

    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • Dear Anglian,

    Thank you so much for your kind words. You really touched my heart.

    I agree. We're not going to agree on some (actually, quite a few) issues. But we agree on the one thing that I (and my Church) considers important in that we can work together as fellow Christians: the saving Blood of Jesus Christ and living for Him in a way that will proclaim to the world Whom we serve. We are His ambassadors. Being united does not mean agreeing on everything. I realise that some would beg to differ and that is their perogative. I don't let it get to me because I grew up in a part of the US where most people considered Catholics the children of the antichrist (the Pope) and thought we kept weapons stashed in our attics for the final takeover of the world when the Pope gave the word. Although some of those opinions have softened, we are still regarded with a wary eye. Most don't think about Orthodox one way or another because there are not many Orthodox in that part of the country as there are out in California and up North, although as the South increases in diverse populations, which it is doing because it has become a haven now for minorities and women, I am sure that the Orthodox populations will increase. The you all will get the wary eye as well - on some of the same issues as we do ("worshipping saints", "canabalism in the Eucharist", "getting to heaven on good works", etc.). Of course, you'll escape the uprising one since you don't recognise the Pope in Rome - haha! Well, most people do not believe THAT anymore about us I hope.

    This is why I refuse to get drawn into interdenominational fights. I'll discuss, debate lightly, and that is it. Usually when I start explaining to people, they are shocked by my answers and then say "yeah, ok, I can see that" or "I don't believe in that, but I see from where you are coming..."

    But anyway, I feel the same way about you, Anglian. You are my brother in Christ.

    God bless.

    byrdele

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