What if my name is Pierre ? Egyptians will pronounce that "Biere" which means "Beer".What if they think "beer" is wrong? Do we change our names because they are soo dumb to know the difference between "P"ierre and "B"iere??? What do we do!!???
Oh my, this one cracked me up. Take it easy Vassilio, we are dealing with people that cannot addapt easilly. Try avoiding conflicts with them, just like you avoid the smoke of cigarettes they smoke ;):D
What if my name is Pierre ? Egyptians will pronounce that "Biere" which means "Beer".What if they think "beer" is wrong? Do we change our names because they are soo dumb to know the difference between "P"ierre and "B"iere??? What do we do!!???
Oh my, this one cracked me up. Take it easy Vassilio, we are dealing with people that cannot addapt easilly. Try avoiding conflicts with them, just like you avoid the smoke of cigarettes they smoke ;):D
Im not kidding.. iwas standing near the door of the church talking to this girl, and this absolute moron came up and told us to either leave the Church or go upstairs because we were "causing him to stumble". How is talking with a girl near a door a sin!!??
Wouldnt that make u mad!?
Yeah, i shouted at him.. and then i shouted more at him... and what's really annoying was this:
He was actually in the Church praying the tasbeha. He came out and told us that we were "making him stumble".
u knw wat how does a guy telling u to tell people to stop kissin or a guy comin out of tasbeha tellin u to stop tlkin to a certain gurl outside a door make u hate egyptians ??
im sorry to say u guys are a disgrace to copts we are supposed to luv our enemies and u cant stand ur own people
what kind of christian are u ??
i want everyone to think about this
what do u think jesus thinks about u when u do tht ?
huh ?
we as christians we are supposed to abide by rules and by the way kissin is inappropiate at church
and takas thts if u wana knw
in churh if a deacon or a person from the congergation speaks ab0ut ny thing other then stuff about church during any service according to the taks he/she shouldnt get communion for 3 weeks now u said kissing right ????
[quote author=bigmak link=topic=5384.msg71864#msg71864 date=1180939459] im sorry to say u guys are pathetic no joke
u knw wat how does a guy telling u to tell people to stop kissin or a guy comin out of tasbeha tellin u to stop tlkin to a certain gurl outside a door make u hate egyptians ??
im sorry to say u guys are a disgrace to copts we are supposed to luv our enemies and u cant stand ur own people
what kind of christian are u ??
i want everyone to think about this
what do u think jesus thinks about u when u do tht ?
huh ?
we as christians we are supposed to abide by rules and by the way kissin is inappropiate at church
and takas thts if u wana knw
in churh if a deacon or a person from the congergation speaks ab0ut ny thing other then stuff about church during any service according to the taks he/she shouldnt get communion for 3 weeks now u said kissing right ????
ya its deffinatly wrong
excuse me if i was harsh with my words
pray for me im a sinner :'(
mak
What's wrong with you!!
I said i was TALKING to a girl NEAR a door of a Church. A man praying the tasbeha came out of the Church and told us we were making him "stumble". How is talking to a girl near a door a sin!!!!! How!!
Abide by What rules!!??? Where does it say you cannot talk to a girl NEAR A DOOR!!HUH!!!!
I'm going to find an excuse for you being a moron because Christ wants me to find excuses for people's bad actions. THe excuse I found for you is this: You're a moron, but im sure you're trying to be better. Either that, or a you're a priest, or a priest's son in which case, you probably think u can insult/judge and condemn everyone.
But whatever ur problem, God loves u as u are, and we forgive u!!!
Dear vassilios, How on earth can I convince you to believe me now, that I was trying to say exactly what you said. Sorry if I came across as opposing you by mentioning this verse, but you even put it in a nicer way. Yes, I agree we all should check if something is Christian or not before calling it a stumbling stone. I still agree with you that many people especially Egyptians living out of Egypt go over the top many times and to far extremes for no reason. Anyway, come on man: did I mention kissing on the lips? I didn't mean kissing on the lips when I said "kissing in an unholy way". It doesn't matter whether it is lips or cheecks: it might be unholy even if it is in the air: just depends on how you give respect to church, and how you act inside. Dear bigmak I am sorry to say that you still sound like the other girl (can't remember her nickname at the moment), who mixes up things which are suitable during a liturgy with things that are not suitable at all inside the church. Again it goes back to cultural things, and this is what Anglian mentioned before, there is a big overlap between cultural register and church practices: but both shouldn't be mixed up. I am glad though to hear that there are some priests who are strict about Liturgy rituals, and people keeping silent and listening and praying continuously, but during other times, it not unsuitable to talk to a lady near the door in the church, or to kiss someone to greet them in the church. Well, believe it or not, if I am on a different planet, I kiss my fiancee after the Mass in EGYPT every time I go to see her there, as I don't live in Egypt permanently these days, and guess what??????????????? In front of many people, no one has ever told me to stop this: let them try to have a go then ;D God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
[quote author=bigmak link=topic=5384.msg71864#msg71864 date=1180939459] im sorry to say u guys are pathetic no joke
u just said we're suppossed to love one another below and ur says 'pathetic' to everyone....great example.
im sorry to say u guys are a disgrace to copts we are supposed to luv our enemies and u cant stand ur own people what kind of christian are u ??
u can't say that our coptic church is only for egs...it's for those who belive in it. and what does that have to do with christianty??!! i can not like some egys to....what's wrong with that.
i want everyone to think about this what do u think jesus thinks about u when u do tht ? huh ?
we as christians we are supposed to abide by rules and by the way kissin is inappropiate at church
i think it was cleared that the 'kisses' we're now talking about are respect kisses, nothing like boyfrend and girlfrend kisssss. which doesn't effact the holiness of the church at all.
in churh if a deacon or a person from the congergation speaks ab0ut ny thing other then stuff about church during any service according to the taks he/she shouldnt get communion for 3 weeks now u said kissing right ????
it's not our to judge other about taking communion. it's the person and his FoC.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5384.msg71912#msg71912 date=1180974744] Dear vassilios, How on earth can I convince you to believe me now, that I was trying to say exactly what you said. Sorry if I came across as opposing you by mentioning this verse, but you even put it in a nicer way. Yes, I agree we all should check if something is Christian or not before calling it a stumbling stone. I still agree with you that many people especially Egyptians living out of Egypt go over the top many times and to far extremes for no reason. Anyway, come on man: did I mention kissing on the lips? I didn't mean kissing on the lips when I said "kissing in an unholy way". It doesn't matter whether it is lips or cheecks: it might be unholy even if it is in the air: just depends on how you give respect to church, and how you act inside. Dear bigmak I am sorry to say that you still sound like the other girl (can't remember her nickname at the moment), who mixes up things which are suitable during a liturgy with things that are not suitable at all inside the church. Again it goes back to cultural things, and this is what Anglian mentioned before, there is a big overlap between cultural register and church practices: but both shouldn't be mixed up. I am glad though to hear that there are some priests who are strict about Liturgy rituals, and people keeping silent and listening and praying continuously, but during other times, it not unsuitable to talk to a lady near the door in the church, or to kiss someone to greet them in the church. Well, believe it or not, if I am on a different planet, I kiss my fiancee after the Mass in EGYPT every time I go to see her there, as I don't live in Egypt permanently these days, and guess what??????????????? In front of many people, no one has ever told me to stop this: let them try to have a go then ;D God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Hi. its ok.. i was talking to BigMak. Please see his website before responding.
by the way i dont do tht thts not mine my friend took it n i dont go to xanga band i really dont care but u knw wat i think we do need a abouna on this subject .
and taqs is sumthin tht is made by the magma3 not the priest and thnk u for callin me a moron i am a moron thts if u think im a moron for tellin u something tht all ur priests dont do right i have done nothing right in my whole life and i cant say im a good person or a son of abouna .ima a sinner no one has more sins then me .
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14).
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are" (1 Cor 3:16-17).
by the way ophadece taqs is taqs no one can change it . except il magma3 il moqadas
[quote author=bigmak link=topic=5384.msg71926#msg71926 date=1180988985] by the way i dont do tht thts not mine my friend took it n i dont go to xanga band i really dont care if u didn't make it, and if it's not urs, than why it's on ur profile here on tasbeha.org?!!!!
and taqs is sumthin tht is made by the magma3 not the priest and thnk u for callin me a moron i am a moron thts if u think im a moron for tellin u something tht all ur priests dont do right i have done nothing right in my whole life and i cant say im a good person or a son of abouna .ima a sinner no one has more sins then me.
we're all sinners...there is now diffrence.
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14).
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are" (1 Cor 3:16-17).
great verses, but can i ask what reason are they listed here for......
by the way ophadece taqs is taqs no one can change it . except il magma3 il moqadas
can i please ask u 2, what does rites have to do with this topic now.....
When you participate in this forum, a certain degree of formality and respect is due.
Bigmak, you must admit that you addressed everyone in this thread very rudely. It is not your place to judge anyone, whether in this forum or elsewhere.
Vassilios, no matter what anyone says, you can't insult anyone in this forum. Also, please refrain from the priest jokes. I am sure I am not the only one who finds them offensive.
Threads like this one can still be beneficial and educational to others if we all make an effort to control our tongues.
[quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5384.msg71938#msg71938 date=1180997697] i agree with EpNomos EnTaio ... what makes this topic so big ??? i still dont get the point! just about an egyptian with his way of thinking...
pp4m
THat's very true. My sincere and unreserved apologies.
[quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=5384.msg71937#msg71937 date=1180997465] Bigmak and Vassilios,
When you participate in this forum, a certain degree of formality and respect is due.
Bigmak, you must admit that you addressed everyone in this thread very rudely. It is not your place to judge anyone, whether in this forum or elsewhere.
Vassilios, no matter what anyone says, you can't insult anyone in this forum. Also, please refrain from the priest jokes. I am sure I am not the only one who finds them offensive.
Threads like this one can still be beneficial and educational to others if we all make an effort to control our tongues.
Yes. My apologies. No hard feelings bigmak... i didnt mean to call u a moron. THe website you have doesnt do u any favours by the way, and a name like "Egyptian Bad Boy" doesnt help your image.. but that's none of my business.
A priest came to our house once and started complaing about all the Church problems. He said to us "I spoke to the bastard". I listend to him intently, and I didnt judge. He said it again.
Then i said "Vassilios, don't judge, perhaps abouna is having a bad black-gown day...just leave him alone"..
Then he kept on swearing and swearing even more...saying the word "bastard".
I wasn't shocked.. just a bit surprised. By that point in my life, I had already seen enough.
After speaking for MORE than 2 hours, what this priest meant was "BARRISTER". He couldnt distinguish between "BASTARD" and "BARRISTER".
So, the Pope should NOT send us ANY priest that has no qualification in the French or English languages if they are coming to live in Europe!!!
He couldnt distinguish between "BASTARD" and "BARRISTER".
A problem some of us will have had in our time, I fear ... ;)
On the subject of the past few posts, I think calm has descended, and would like to thank Vassilios for his apologies; it takes a big man to say sorry. These fora often lead to one pressing the 'send' button when, in other media, one would look at what one had written in anger and throw it into the waste paper basket. It is good that here we can retrace our footsteps and remember his command - that we love one another. (Including all barristers).
He couldnt distinguish between "BASTARD" and "BARRISTER".
A problem some of us will have had in our time, I fear ... ;)
On the subject of the past few posts, I think calm has descended, and would like to thank Vassilios for his apologies; it takes a big man to say sorry. These fora often lead to one pressing the 'send' button when, in other media, one would look at what one had written in anger and throw it into the waste paper basket. It is good that here we can retrace our footsteps and remember his command - that we love one another. (Including all barristers).
In Christ,
John
I'd also like to make it clear that I have nothing against Egyptians - fresh off the boat etc. I have lost respect for how many of them come here: by gaining illegal marriages and then divorcing the french/english woman. This is dishonesty in the eyes of the state.
What's worse is, they do not wish to integrate in France. They seem to be scared of the French and their culture, thinking that nothing is better than being "amongst" their own Egyptian kind. I think this fear is because, in part of the language barrier that they cause by not bothering to learn french, and secondly, by their cultural values that scares them from integrating in the society they are in.
If you think about it, take a man who works as a manual labourer with other Egyptians in Paris. He speaks arabic every day. Then on sundays he goes to Church, in an arabic mass. Everything is arabic. They go downstairs to have a coffee, and chat in arabic. If he's free on saturdays, he'll go to the arabic vespers and meetings in Church.
The entire week can be spent living in France, and speaking in Arabic. What do they sell in Coptic orthodox restaurant in the Church? Falafel sandwiches, homous, beftek, coca-cola... Konafa... (yes, there's a woman that makes us konafa!).
What else do they sell in this Coptic Cantine? The Ahram and Keraza newspapers - IN ARABIC.. - books - in ARABIC...
So, an entire week can pass by and the person would have read, eaten, spoken and lived as if he's living in the middle east. The Last thing such people need is a guy like us that come to Church to pray. WHo arent interested in looking for a wife, an illegal job, a place to speak arabic... no.. just interested in praying and leaving.. that's going to cause problems.
The Coptic priest on top of this doesnt speak French. Who could blame him, the congregation doesnt speak French either.
What is the effect of all of this on spirituality and respect in the Coptic Church? Loads!!
* Does the Coptic Church expect Copts to be Egytian or Christian? It has to decide!? If it expects us to be familiar with the egyptian culture, tradition, ways etc... (no matter how nice it may be), so we integrate in a CHurch, then we'll feel left out.
The ONLY thing left to do now in the Coptic Church is to put a flag of Egypt in the Church, have a huge photo of Hosni Mobarak on the wall, and some Oum Khalsoum songs in the background. (oh!! I think they got some backgammon tables also in the canteen to provide that authentic egyptian cafe environment).
Does this environment help serve the Copts who are of French origin in France??? Does that help them?? Is the Coptic Church ONLY open for those from Egypt? or for those looking for a pure apostolic faith, with apostolic traditions - NOT EGYPTIAN cultural traditions.
Will such behaviour, by sending us priests that do not speak French, help make us integrated in our Church, and help the Church be part of the Community it is in??? Will it??
You highlight the question of the difference between ethnic practice and Orthodox praxis.
It is only natural, I suppose, that when abroad one seeks out one's fellow countrymen (the English in Spain are notorious for this!). Naturally enough, one's Church tends to become the centre for such contact, and it can, and often does, become a little home from home, where people cling all the more fiercely to the tokens of their ethnic identity because they are in a foreign land. In these circumstances one can end up mistaking one's own customs for Orthodoxy itself.
There is nothing in Orthodox praxis saying that men and women have to sit separately, or that they cannot exchange an actual kiss of peace; it is simply that in some cultures that is how the two sexes operate in public. The similarity with the way Islam treats women needs no underlining, and some Orthodox practices have been influenced by years of Islamic law. These things we respect and understand.
Where it can be a problem is in the sort of situation you and many Egyptians find themselves in - when you are in a western culture when things - especially the way man and women relate in public - are very different. There is often a generational difference too. The younger generation are more open to western ways than their parents, who, often brought up in Egypt, find some aspects of western culture very shocking (as, indeed, some of them are!). There can also be a language problem - as you recognise.
We have had young Egyptians coming to British Orthodox services because they prefer their services in English; their parents, naturally, prefer the familiar Arabic language service they have always known.
So, we have a potent mix of forces here - generational, cultural, ethnic and religious - it is little wonder that at times there are explosions. Only if we hear the still, small voice of Our Lord calling us to repentance, will we begin to learn that only by loving each other - and showing respect for others - can we live a Christian life - in whatever culture.
You highlight the question of the difference between ethnic practice and Orthodox praxis.
... - can we live a Christian life - in whatever culture.
In Christ,
Anglian
But if my culture or the expression of what's acceptable/not acceptable to me causes "someone to stumble" - then can we live in peace???
Im raised , and its in my culture, not to be subordinate to anyone. That whoever we are, no one is above the law, neither social laws, nor moral laws of that country. However, this is not the case with priests, and egyptians from Egypt: We've SEEN THAT HERE:: may i remind u of the fact that someone told me, and I quote: "
... VASSILIOS, Look who you are, and look who he is (i.e. the priest) - he has been chosen by God, and you are just dust".
THis is their mentality.
As a European, i feel that the hand that serves me Communion is not greater in heaven than the mouth that receives this communion.
As for "God's annointed" - WE ARE ALL NOW GOD's ANNOINTED!
No one is higher than anyone else to the extent they have the social given right to go and be rude and abusive!!??
So, the Coptic CHurch HAS to decide whether or not it is an Egyptian Cultural Center or a Christian House of God. It cannot be both. Im sorry.
Priests received their Priesthood, with all what that responsibility means. It would be ideal for the service if the priests serving a community could speak the community's native language. On a large scale, they may not be always easy to find.
What is the link now to think of, until this annoying problem is solved, especially you are bombarded by numerous external tribulations? Simple: the Coptic language will be partly used during the liturgy whether it's in French or in Arabic. Look to assign some persons/servants to help translate the sermons (or other) to the required languages and others to distribute them, best before the sermon. May everybody make an effort to learn a bit more of another language so all can get more together.
Engage dialog with new comers, culturally different persons, youth, adults, 1st, 2nd and 3rd generations. It will do good and also understanding and respecting others mentalities with love. The generations that follow will be more close to European and keeping their COC faith and practices.
Ephesians 4:1-16
Walk in Unity 1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Spiritual Gifts 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“ When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
9 Now this, “He ascended” what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head: Christ 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
The importance of Love cannot be overemphasized. Respect is one aspect of Love.
Im raised , and its in my culture, not to be subordinate to anyone.
in fact thats not true...
first u are subordinated to the law secondly in the church (first of all the orthodox) u have an hierarchy that meanso that the pope is on the top of it
its all the matter of respect
and what i want to say is that we shouldnt talk about any abouna or bishops cause thats not good...they really are chosen by god to be that...even it is as a matter of principle. we shouldnt...
Im raised , and its in my culture, not to be subordinate to anyone.
in fact thats not true...
first u are subordinated to the law secondly in the church (first of all the orthodox) u have an hierarchy that meanso that the pope is on the top of it
its all the matter of respect
and what i want to say is that we shouldnt talk about any abouna or bishops cause thats not good...they really are chosen by god to be that...even it is as a matter of principle. we shouldnt...
pp4m
No, this is where you are mistaken. I don't have to take abuse from someone abusive because he's richer than me.
I don't have to take abuse from someone because he's an administrator of a website and I'm a user.
I don't have to take abuse from a teacher because he's paid to teach me, and I'm just going to school as a student.
Any of the above conditions, if its real abuse, could result in a criminal offence. A teacher abusing a child, emotionally or physically will not be tolerated in the west. However, IT WILL BE TOLERATED in Egypt. In fact, teachers can be so cruel to students in Egypt, and students take it, because a lot pass according to the teacher's mercy, not really their grades.
The west is not like this.
My priest who is from Egypt, living with Egyptians, praying with Egyptians, he forgets that we are not Egyptian. Then if he's abusive, and we answer him back, he becomes offended because he says :" Oh! They have no respect for my priesthood! They are not obedient"
again ya habibi..as u said...I AM NOT EGYPTIAN, i was born here in austria and raised here in austria and lived the austrian culture...it seems like u are kind of a rebell...try to understand the egyptian culture and u can live with it...even if they wouldnt try to understand...
i am living with egyptians here in peace...we all live in peace together abounas with us and the other way... maybe u had a bad luck by the abouna u got... we have our priests here and they are really friendly and really nice and if we dont understand something they try to make us understand and all of them try to speak our language...even it is hard... but what they cant live is the austrian or better said the western culture... and i can really understand this...again im saying that as a non egyptian!
so try to understand them and dont judge...cause u are judging them definetly...
[quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5384.msg72132#msg72132 date=1181229119] again ya habibi..as u said...I AM NOT EGYPTIAN, i was born here in austria and raised here in austria and lived the austrian culture...it seems like u are kind of a rebell...try to understand the egyptian culture and u can live with it...even if they wouldnt try to understand...
i am living with egyptians here in peace...we all live in peace together abounas with us and the other way... maybe u had a bad luck by the abouna u got... we have our priests here and they are really friendly and really nice and if we dont understand something they try to make us understand and all of them try to speak our language...even it is hard... but what they cant live is the austrian or better said the western culture... and i can really understand this...again im saying that as a non egyptian!
so try to understand them and dont judge...cause u are judging them definetly...
[quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5384.msg72137#msg72137 date=1181230017] the whole topic? i know u wrote i am not judging anyone...but the way u talk about egyptians, and abounas...thats it
What do u mean "the way" i talk about them?? How is that judging!? Did i say "they are all evil"? Did i say "they are all going to hell".
I said the egyptian culture/mentality which they preserve is causing me grief!! It doesnt work with how we think.
Look for example. For an egyptian, kissing your fiance on her lips is HARAM! OK!? Whether muslim or Christian. Imagine how they'd look at us if they saw us kissing our fiances???
Comments
Take it easy Vassilio, we are dealing with people that cannot addapt easilly.
Try avoiding conflicts with them, just like you avoid the smoke of cigarettes they smoke ;) :D
Take it easy Vassilio, we are dealing with people that cannot addapt easilly.
Try avoiding conflicts with them, just like you avoid the smoke of cigarettes they smoke ;) :D
Im not kidding.. iwas standing near the door of the church talking to this girl, and this absolute moron came up and told us to either leave the Church or go upstairs because we were "causing him to stumble". How is talking with a girl near a door a sin!!??
Wouldnt that make u mad!?
Yeah, i shouted at him.. and then i shouted more at him... and what's really annoying was this:
He was actually in the Church praying the tasbeha. He came out and told us that we were "making him stumble".
I'm FED UP!!!
u knw wat how does a guy telling u to tell people to stop kissin or a guy comin out of tasbeha tellin u to stop tlkin to a certain gurl outside a door make u hate egyptians ??
im sorry to say u guys are a disgrace to copts we are supposed to luv our enemies and u cant stand ur own people
what kind of christian are u ??
i want everyone to think about this
what do u think jesus thinks about u when u do tht ?
huh ?
we as christians we are supposed to abide by rules and by the way kissin is inappropiate at church
and takas thts if u wana knw
in churh if a deacon or a person from the congergation speaks ab0ut ny thing other then stuff about church during any service according to the taks he/she shouldnt get communion for 3 weeks now u said kissing right ????
ya its deffinatly wrong
excuse me if i was harsh with my words
pray for me im a sinner :'(
mak
im sorry to say u guys are pathetic no joke
u knw wat how does a guy telling u to tell people to stop kissin or a guy comin out of tasbeha tellin u to stop tlkin to a certain gurl outside a door make u hate egyptians ??
im sorry to say u guys are a disgrace to copts we are supposed to luv our enemies and u cant stand ur own people
what kind of christian are u ??
i want everyone to think about this
what do u think jesus thinks about u when u do tht ?
huh ?
we as christians we are supposed to abide by rules and by the way kissin is inappropiate at church
and takas thts if u wana knw
in churh if a deacon or a person from the congergation speaks ab0ut ny thing other then stuff about church during any service according to the taks he/she shouldnt get communion for 3 weeks now u said kissing right ????
ya its deffinatly wrong
excuse me if i was harsh with my words
pray for me im a sinner :'(
mak
What's wrong with you!!
I said i was TALKING to a girl NEAR a door of a Church. A man praying the tasbeha came out of the Church and told us we were making him "stumble". How is talking to a girl near a door a sin!!!!!
How!!
Abide by What rules!!??? Where does it say you cannot talk to a girl NEAR A DOOR!!HUH!!!!
I'm going to find an excuse for you being a moron because Christ wants me to find excuses for people's bad actions. THe excuse I found for you is this: You're a moron, but im sure you're trying to be better. Either that, or a you're a priest, or a priest's son in which case, you probably think u can insult/judge and condemn everyone.
But whatever ur problem, God loves u as u are, and we forgive u!!!
Am i judging u calling u a moron? http://www.xanga.com/egyptianbadboy12 This is your website. With all due respect, you're hilarious.
"Egyptian Bad boy!" - HAHAHA
You're a moron, trying to act like abouna. You're not a priest, so easy with the insults.
How on earth can I convince you to believe me now, that I was trying to say exactly what you said. Sorry if I came across as opposing you by mentioning this verse, but you even put it in a nicer way. Yes, I agree we all should check if something is Christian or not before calling it a stumbling stone. I still agree with you that many people especially Egyptians living out of Egypt go over the top many times and to far extremes for no reason. Anyway, come on man: did I mention kissing on the lips? I didn't mean kissing on the lips when I said "kissing in an unholy way". It doesn't matter whether it is lips or cheecks: it might be unholy even if it is in the air: just depends on how you give respect to church, and how you act inside.
Dear bigmak I am sorry to say that you still sound like the other girl (can't remember her nickname at the moment), who mixes up things which are suitable during a liturgy with things that are not suitable at all inside the church. Again it goes back to cultural things, and this is what Anglian mentioned before, there is a big overlap between cultural register and church practices: but both shouldn't be mixed up.
I am glad though to hear that there are some priests who are strict about Liturgy rituals, and people keeping silent and listening and praying continuously, but during other times, it not unsuitable to talk to a lady near the door in the church, or to kiss someone to greet them in the church. Well, believe it or not, if I am on a different planet, I kiss my fiancee after the Mass in EGYPT every time I go to see her there, as I don't live in Egypt permanently these days, and guess what??????????????? In front of many people, no one has ever told me to stop this: let them try to have a go then ;D
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
im sorry to say u guys are pathetic no joke
u just said we're suppossed to love one another below and ur says 'pathetic' to everyone....great example. u can't say that our coptic church is only for egs...it's for those who belive in it. and what does that have to do with christianty??!! i can not like some egys to....what's wrong with that. i think it was cleared that the 'kisses' we're now talking about are respect kisses, nothing like boyfrend and girlfrend kisssss. which doesn't effact the holiness of the church at all. it's not our to judge other about taking communion. it's the person and his FoC.
Dear vassilios,
How on earth can I convince you to believe me now, that I was trying to say exactly what you said. Sorry if I came across as opposing you by mentioning this verse, but you even put it in a nicer way. Yes, I agree we all should check if something is Christian or not before calling it a stumbling stone. I still agree with you that many people especially Egyptians living out of Egypt go over the top many times and to far extremes for no reason. Anyway, come on man: did I mention kissing on the lips? I didn't mean kissing on the lips when I said "kissing in an unholy way". It doesn't matter whether it is lips or cheecks: it might be unholy even if it is in the air: just depends on how you give respect to church, and how you act inside.
Dear bigmak I am sorry to say that you still sound like the other girl (can't remember her nickname at the moment), who mixes up things which are suitable during a liturgy with things that are not suitable at all inside the church. Again it goes back to cultural things, and this is what Anglian mentioned before, there is a big overlap between cultural register and church practices: but both shouldn't be mixed up.
I am glad though to hear that there are some priests who are strict about Liturgy rituals, and people keeping silent and listening and praying continuously, but during other times, it not unsuitable to talk to a lady near the door in the church, or to kiss someone to greet them in the church. Well, believe it or not, if I am on a different planet, I kiss my fiancee after the Mass in EGYPT every time I go to see her there, as I don't live in Egypt permanently these days, and guess what??????????????? In front of many people, no one has ever told me to stop this: let them try to have a go then ;D
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Hi. its ok.. i was talking to BigMak.
Please see his website before responding.
and taqs is sumthin tht is made by the magma3 not the priest and thnk u for callin me a moron i am a moron thts if u think im a moron for tellin u something tht all ur priests dont do right i have done nothing right in my whole life and i cant say im a good person or a son of abouna .ima a sinner no one has more sins then me .
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14).
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are" (1 Cor 3:16-17).
by the way ophadece taqs is taqs no one can change it . except il magma3 il moqadas
by the way i dont do tht thts not mine my friend took it n i dont go to xanga band i really dont care
if u didn't make it, and if it's not urs, than why it's on ur profile here on tasbeha.org?!!!!
we're all sinners...there is now diffrence. great verses, but can i ask what reason are they listed here for...... can i please ask u 2, what does rites have to do with this topic now.....
When you participate in this forum, a certain degree of formality and respect is due.
Bigmak, you must admit that you addressed everyone in this thread very rudely. It is not your place to judge anyone, whether in this forum or elsewhere.
Vassilios, no matter what anyone says, you can't insult anyone in this forum. Also, please refrain from the priest jokes. I am sure I am not the only one who finds them offensive.
Threads like this one can still be beneficial and educational to others if we all make an effort to control our tongues.
what makes this topic so big ??? i still dont get the point!
just about an egyptian with his way of thinking...
pp4m
i agree with EpNomos EnTaio ...
what makes this topic so big ??? i still dont get the point!
just about an egyptian with his way of thinking...
pp4m
THat's very true.
My sincere and unreserved apologies.
Bigmak and Vassilios,
When you participate in this forum, a certain degree of formality and respect is due.
Bigmak, you must admit that you addressed everyone in this thread very rudely. It is not your place to judge anyone, whether in this forum or elsewhere.
Vassilios, no matter what anyone says, you can't insult anyone in this forum. Also, please refrain from the priest jokes. I am sure I am not the only one who finds them offensive.
Threads like this one can still be beneficial and educational to others if we all make an effort to control our tongues.
Yes. My apologies. No hard feelings bigmak... i didnt mean to call u a moron. THe website you have doesnt do u any favours by the way, and a name like "Egyptian Bad Boy" doesnt help your image.. but that's none of my business.
Again, im sorry.
Then i said "Vassilios, don't judge, perhaps abouna is having a bad black-gown day...just leave him alone"..
Then he kept on swearing and swearing even more...saying the word "bastard".
I wasn't shocked.. just a bit surprised. By that point in my life, I had already seen enough.
After speaking for MORE than 2 hours, what this priest meant was "BARRISTER". He couldnt distinguish between "BASTARD" and "BARRISTER".
So, the Pope should NOT send us ANY priest that has no qualification in the French or English languages if they are coming to live in Europe!!!
PLEASE!!! Its dangerous.
On the subject of the past few posts, I think calm has descended, and would like to thank Vassilios for his apologies; it takes a big man to say sorry. These fora often lead to one pressing the 'send' button when, in other media, one would look at what one had written in anger and throw it into the waste paper basket. It is good that here we can retrace our footsteps and remember his command - that we love one another. (Including all barristers).
In Christ,
John
Dear Vassilios, A problem some of us will have had in our time, I fear ... ;)
On the subject of the past few posts, I think calm has descended, and would like to thank Vassilios for his apologies; it takes a big man to say sorry. These fora often lead to one pressing the 'send' button when, in other media, one would look at what one had written in anger and throw it into the waste paper basket. It is good that here we can retrace our footsteps and remember his command - that we love one another. (Including all barristers).
In Christ,
John
I'd also like to make it clear that I have nothing against Egyptians - fresh off the boat etc. I have lost respect for how many of them come here: by gaining illegal marriages and then divorcing the french/english woman. This is dishonesty in the eyes of the state.
What's worse is, they do not wish to integrate in France. They seem to be scared of the French and their culture, thinking that nothing is better than being "amongst" their own Egyptian kind. I think this fear is because, in part of the language barrier that they cause by not bothering to learn french, and secondly, by their cultural values that scares them from integrating in the society they are in.
If you think about it, take a man who works as a manual labourer with other Egyptians in Paris. He speaks arabic every day. Then on sundays he goes to Church, in an arabic mass. Everything is arabic. They go downstairs to have a coffee, and chat in arabic. If he's free on saturdays, he'll go to the arabic vespers and meetings in Church.
The entire week can be spent living in France, and speaking in Arabic. What do they sell in Coptic orthodox restaurant in the Church? Falafel sandwiches, homous, beftek, coca-cola... Konafa... (yes, there's a woman that makes us konafa!).
What else do they sell in this Coptic Cantine? The Ahram and Keraza newspapers - IN ARABIC.. - books - in ARABIC...
So, an entire week can pass by and the person would have read, eaten, spoken and lived as if he's living in the middle east. The Last thing such people need is a guy like us that come to Church to pray. WHo arent interested in looking for a wife, an illegal job, a place to speak arabic... no.. just interested in praying and leaving.. that's going to cause problems.
The Coptic priest on top of this doesnt speak French. Who could blame him, the congregation doesnt speak French either.
What is the effect of all of this on spirituality and respect in the Coptic Church? Loads!!
* Does the Coptic Church expect Copts to be Egytian or Christian? It has to decide!? If it expects us to be familiar with the egyptian culture, tradition, ways etc... (no matter how nice it may be), so we integrate in a CHurch, then we'll feel left out.
The ONLY thing left to do now in the Coptic Church is to put a flag of Egypt in the Church, have a huge photo of Hosni Mobarak on the wall, and some Oum Khalsoum songs in the background. (oh!! I think they got some backgammon tables also in the canteen to provide that authentic egyptian cafe environment).
Does this environment help serve the Copts who are of French origin in France??? Does that help them?? Is the Coptic Church ONLY open for those from Egypt? or for those looking for a pure apostolic faith, with apostolic traditions - NOT EGYPTIAN cultural traditions.
Will such behaviour, by sending us priests that do not speak French, help make us integrated in our Church, and help the Church be part of the Community it is in??? Will it??
You highlight the question of the difference between ethnic practice and Orthodox praxis.
It is only natural, I suppose, that when abroad one seeks out one's fellow countrymen (the English in Spain are notorious for this!). Naturally enough, one's Church tends to become the centre for such contact, and it can, and often does, become a little home from home, where people cling all the more fiercely to the tokens of their ethnic identity because they are in a foreign land. In these circumstances one can end up mistaking one's own customs for Orthodoxy itself.
There is nothing in Orthodox praxis saying that men and women have to sit separately, or that they cannot exchange an actual kiss of peace; it is simply that in some cultures that is how the two sexes operate in public. The similarity with the way Islam treats women needs no underlining, and some Orthodox practices have been influenced by years of Islamic law. These things we respect and understand.
Where it can be a problem is in the sort of situation you and many Egyptians find themselves in - when you are in a western culture when things - especially the way man and women relate in public - are very different. There is often a generational difference too. The younger generation are more open to western ways than their parents, who, often brought up in Egypt, find some aspects of western culture very shocking (as, indeed, some of them are!). There can also be a language problem - as you recognise.
We have had young Egyptians coming to British Orthodox services because they prefer their services in English; their parents, naturally, prefer the familiar Arabic language service they have always known.
So, we have a potent mix of forces here - generational, cultural, ethnic and religious - it is little wonder that at times there are explosions. Only if we hear the still, small voice of Our Lord calling us to repentance, will we begin to learn that only by loving each other - and showing respect for others - can we live a Christian life - in whatever culture.
In Christ,
Anglian
Dear Vassilios,
You highlight the question of the difference between ethnic practice and Orthodox praxis.
... - can we live a Christian life - in whatever culture.
In Christ,
Anglian
But if my culture or the expression of what's acceptable/not acceptable to me causes "someone to stumble" - then can we live in peace???
Im raised , and its in my culture, not to be subordinate to anyone. That whoever we are, no one is above the law, neither social laws, nor moral laws of that country. However, this is not the case with priests, and egyptians from Egypt: We've SEEN THAT HERE:: may i remind u of the fact that someone told me, and I quote: "
... VASSILIOS, Look who you are, and look who he is (i.e. the priest) - he has been chosen by God, and you are just dust".
THis is their mentality.
As a European, i feel that the hand that serves me Communion is not greater in heaven than the mouth that receives this communion.
As for "God's annointed" - WE ARE ALL NOW GOD's ANNOINTED!
No one is higher than anyone else to the extent they have the social given right to go and be rude and abusive!!??
So, the Coptic CHurch HAS to decide whether or not it is an Egyptian Cultural Center or a Christian House of God. It cannot be both. Im sorry.
It would be ideal for the service if the priests serving a community could speak the community's native language. On a large scale, they may not be always easy to find.
What is the link now to think of, until this annoying problem is solved, especially you are bombarded by numerous external tribulations? Simple: the Coptic language will be partly used during the liturgy whether it's in French or in Arabic. Look to assign some persons/servants to help translate the sermons (or other) to the required languages and others to distribute them, best before the sermon. May everybody make an effort to learn a bit more of another language so all can get more together.
Engage dialog with new comers, culturally different persons, youth, adults, 1st, 2nd and 3rd generations. It will do good and also understanding and respecting others mentalities with love. The generations that follow will be more close to European and keeping their COC faith and practices.
Ephesians 4:1-16
Walk in Unity
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Spiritual Gifts
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore He says:
“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 Now this, “He ascended” what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head: Christ 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
The importance of Love cannot be overemphasized. Respect is one aspect of Love.
GBU
first u are subordinated to the law
secondly in the church (first of all the orthodox) u have an hierarchy that meanso that the pope is on the top of it
its all the matter of respect
and what i want to say is that we shouldnt talk about any abouna or bishops cause thats not good...they really are chosen by god to be that...even it is as a matter of principle.
we shouldnt...
pp4m
first u are subordinated to the law
secondly in the church (first of all the orthodox) u have an hierarchy that meanso that the pope is on the top of it
its all the matter of respect
and what i want to say is that we shouldnt talk about any abouna or bishops cause thats not good...they really are chosen by god to be that...even it is as a matter of principle.
we shouldnt...
pp4m
No, this is where you are mistaken. I don't have to take abuse from someone abusive because he's richer than me.
I don't have to take abuse from someone because he's an administrator of a website and I'm a user.
I don't have to take abuse from a teacher because he's paid to teach me, and I'm just going to school as a student.
Any of the above conditions, if its real abuse, could result in a criminal offence. A teacher abusing a child, emotionally or physically will not be tolerated in the west. However, IT WILL BE TOLERATED in Egypt. In fact, teachers can be so cruel to students in Egypt, and students take it, because a lot pass according to the teacher's mercy, not really their grades.
The west is not like this.
My priest who is from Egypt, living with Egyptians, praying with Egyptians, he forgets that we are not Egyptian. Then if he's abusive, and we answer him back, he becomes offended because he says :" Oh! They have no respect for my priesthood! They are not obedient"
No, in the west habibi, we are free.
i am living with egyptians here in peace...we all live in peace together abounas with us and the other way...
maybe u had a bad luck by the abouna u got...
we have our priests here and they are really friendly and really nice and if we dont understand something they try to make us understand and all of them try to speak our language...even it is hard...
but what they cant live is the austrian or better said the western culture...
and i can really understand this...again im saying that as a non egyptian!
so try to understand them and dont judge...cause u are judging them definetly...
pp4m
again ya habibi..as u said...I AM NOT EGYPTIAN, i was born here in austria and raised here in austria and lived the austrian culture...it seems like u are kind of a rebell...try to understand the egyptian culture and u can live with it...even if they wouldnt try to understand...
i am living with egyptians here in peace...we all live in peace together abounas with us and the other way...
maybe u had a bad luck by the abouna u got...
we have our priests here and they are really friendly and really nice and if we dont understand something they try to make us understand and all of them try to speak our language...even it is hard...
but what they cant live is the austrian or better said the western culture...
and i can really understand this...again im saying that as a non egyptian!
so try to understand them and dont judge...cause u are judging them definetly...
pp4m
How am I judging them?
well what did i say that's judgemental? Where have i judged and condemened anyone?
the whole topic? i know u wrote i am not judging anyone...but the way u talk about egyptians, and abounas...thats it
What do u mean "the way" i talk about them?? How is that judging!? Did i say "they are all evil"? Did i say "they are all going to hell".
I said the egyptian culture/mentality which they preserve is causing me grief!! It doesnt work with how we think.
Look for example. For an egyptian, kissing your fiance on her lips is HARAM! OK!? Whether muslim or Christian. Imagine how they'd look at us if they saw us kissing our fiances???