OK, here's a good example of Copts from Egypt and Copts from France cannot live together.
I was invited to a marriage in France by a Coptic lady who had 99% French guests. I was a bit late, and as walking into the Church, the caretaker (an Egyptian man - he speaks NO French) came up to me and started shouting... he looked nervous.
I said :"What's up!? Calm down!"
He said :"Listen, you speak French - right?"
I said "Yeah, sure ...wassup?"
He said :"OK! Go inside the CHurch and tell people not to kiss each other!!"
So basically, this extremely motakhalif man saw people kising each other on the cheeks IN the Church. He thought that its rude because they can do that outside of the Church.. not IN the church!
I told him :"Perhaps they are married?"
He said :"No!! EVEN! ITS WRONG!"
THen I said "Huh!? But if they are married, its OK to kiss one another.. sure we respect the Church, and arent going to make love IN the Church, but kissing your spouse is OK ??? In a wedding!!!!".
The man went crazy. I told him he shouldnt judge. He was like "ITS HARAM!!!".
OH MAN!! WHY DO THESE LOSERS BOTHER COMING TO FRANCE FOR!!???? HUH??
My question is this: i wanna report him for illegal immigration!
Why do Copts from Egypt get nervous when they see a man and woman alone in a Church building!!!!??? what's wrong with them!?WHy can't they handle it that in France, people kiss each other on the cheeks!!?? why then did they bother coming to France for?!!
Comments
Isn't it obvious why they came? To complain - and annoy you :)
LOL
John
Why do Copts from Egypt get nervous when they see a man and woman alone in a Church building!!!!??? what's wrong with them!?WHy can't they handle it that in France, people kiss each other on the cheeks!!?? why then did they bother coming to France for?!!
LOL..................amazing how people act.
anyways it have to do with our egytion calture. lol.....u think girl that is from Frence or US can visit egy and wear the same clouth she would wear in her country. dafinitly not. also u can see that there is always people in egypt that saparate boys and girls. lol..........so funny how people think every where...egy...or out it.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5384.msg71669#msg71669 date=1180635522]
Isn't it obvious why they came? To complain - and annoy you :)
well i guess if it's that way, there should be more egys going to Vassilios' church if we pray enough...lolololol.
LOL..........good story telling there. The one thing that came to mind as to why he was so distraught was because sometimes people go over the boundaries. They dont know when to stop...this man probably thought this kissing was going somewhere. Even so, a lot of people who are conservatives (copts), do not think it is proper to kiss in the church. I personally dont think its proper to kiss somone for pleasure, even if it is a spouse. That sort of thing should not be in a church, but in a home.
No! That aint it dude...
I was talking this very motakhalif taxi driver in egypt, and he was saying that he wanted to immigrate to France. I said to him :"Yes, ok, but would u be OK for men to kiss your wife on her cheeks?" - he said "NO! NEVER!!".
I said to him," you see, In france, its a sign of respect and its polite to kiss others you know well on the cheek. It would be rude if u didn't do this".
He said "No!!! HARAM!!!!"
I said "Ya motakhalif!! ITS HER CHEEKS, NOT HER A**!! Im not asking you to do it, but if u immigrate, you have to accept that your friends who are french will kiss your wife on her cheeks".
He said "No!! HARAM!!!"
I said "Ya GHABY!!! Don't immigrate then!!!"
He said "YES!! France is good!"
I thought to myself "WHAT A HOMAR!"
Ouuffff!!! I CANT STAND EGYPTIANS!! THey bug me!!!!
So i told him "If my best friend refused to kiss my wife on her cheeks i'd be offended" He couldnt understand this because he was motakhalif and ghaby GIDDAN!!!!
And basically, the entire egyptian population is this because if they try to be western they come to western countries and act as if they've divorced God and Holiness and start an agenda of real prodigal living thinking that they are now "western". Whereas in the "west" , we don't think this way.
Do u see what I mean??!!!
Do u see what I mean??!!!
yes i do. and i really don't blame you. but ne3mel eh ya3ny. egys are egys. btw, not only french ppl kiss on the check as a sign of respect. a lot of places in europe does.
Tony
I get it, but i am a little shocked because, in egypt, i thought it was also a custom to greet others with a kiss on the cheek! I thought that thats how they salem each other.......thats how i would salem over there!
ur right. but in egypt it's women with women and men with men. also not every where this happends really. also i think the guy was thinking about the act in church not normally outside.
Egyptians cannot live together with non Egyptians in a Coptic CHurch outside Egypt. One will do something the other will find offensive.
THat applies to marriage also.
I don't believe a marriage can work with an Egyptian mentality man and a western mentality woman. For example. Let's say a REALLY religious coptic man from Egypt married a rREALLY religious coptic woman from england - NO WAY! It wouldnt work.
The really religious Coptic man from Egypt would love to marry the sister of the motakhalif man who works in the Church in France. They should meet up one day.
Also, what I hate is this... these DA*N egyptians telling us haram and haram etc... THEY ALL CAME TO FRANCE ILLEGALLY, and not only that, they married french women on paper to get the nationality, and then found a motakhalifa egyptian coptic woman back home and brought her over to france, to give birth to little monkeys.
So, my point is this:
Egyptians cannot live together with non Egyptians in a Coptic CHurch outside Egypt. One will do something the other will find offensive.
THat applies to marriage also.
I don't believe a marriage can work with an Egyptian mentality man and a western mentality woman. For example. Let's say a REALLY religious coptic man from Egypt married a rREALLY religious coptic woman from england - NO WAY! It wouldnt work.
The really religious Coptic man from Egypt would love to marry the sister of the motakhalif man who works in the Church in France. They should meet up one day.
Also, what I hate is this... these DA*N egyptians telling us haram and haram etc... THEY ALL CAME TO FRANCE ILLEGALLY, and not only that, they married french women on paper to get the nationality, and then found a motakhalifa egyptian coptic woman back home and brought her over to france, to give birth to little monkeys.
Now u are clearlly judging other. first by saying that egys can't be out of egypt. u think u'll be a copt rit now if it warn't for somone from egypt who cam to where u were born and preach our faith. by stating that, ur deny me and every one in the world that was born in egy but lives som where else now.
also who are you to judge someone that is getting married. why should u care about that. please don't tell me you're opinion because now your opinion is just word that you place upon people. which goes back to judging
What's wrong with u!? How am i judging ANYONE? Im saying that im of the opinion that 2 people from different cultures , even with the same faith, but opposite cultures such as Egyptian and French will find it hard to live together! Its an opinion.
WHat's with u and judging!???
How is any of this judging!? You are judging me because you think i'm judging others... this is dumb.
Its an opinion.
OK.. fine! I'll speak for myself then. I CANT STAND EGYPTIANS!!!!!! ESPECIALLY THOSE LIVING IN FRANCE!!!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5384.msg71676#msg71676 date=1180638759]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5384.msg71675#msg71675 date=1180638246]
So, my point is this:
Egyptians cannot live together with non Egyptians in a Coptic CHurch outside Egypt. One will do something the other will find offensive.
THat applies to marriage also.
I don't believe a marriage can work with an Egyptian mentality man and a western mentality woman. For example. Let's say a REALLY religious coptic man from Egypt married a rREALLY religious coptic woman from england - NO WAY! It wouldnt work.
The really religious Coptic man from Egypt would love to marry the sister of the motakhalif man who works in the Church in France. They should meet up one day.
Also, what I hate is this... these DA*N egyptians telling us haram and haram etc... THEY ALL CAME TO FRANCE ILLEGALLY, and not only that, they married french women on paper to get the nationality, and then found a motakhalifa egyptian coptic woman back home and brought her over to france, to give birth to little monkeys.
Now u are clearlly judging other. first by saying that egys can't be out of egypt. u think u'll be a copt rit now if it warn't for somone from egypt who cam to where u were born and preach our faith. by stating that, ur deny me and every one in the world that was born in egy but lives som where else now.
also who are you to judge someone that is getting married. why should u care about that. please don't tell me you're opinion because now your opinion is just word that you place upon people. which goes back to judging
ya habibi u generlized ur opinion on all of egyptions. did u actually meet every single egyption to say that....no. generliztion in anything always misleads the topic. like u were talking about that guy who told u that 'haram', than you came, marra wa7da keda, talkinga bout all of egys.
Yes. I see.. but that's called "GENERALISATION" not "JUDGING". I generalised.
I cant stand egyptians from Egypt. They bug me.
All of them. If you are from Egypt, and you havent bugged me or annoyed me, its because i havent had the pleasure of knowing you.
Yes. I see.. but that's called "GENERALISATION" not "JUDGING". I generalised.
I cant stand egyptians from Egypt. They bug me.
All of them. If you are from Egypt, and you havent bugged me or annoyed me, its because i havent had the pleasure of knowing you.
yes...am sorry i can't spellll right.
tell me vassilios, did u meet every single egyption that was ever born. i can answer that for you but i'll let you answer it.
also btw, are fully french???
I've lived in Europe ALL my life. Never in Egypt. OK?
In all that time i've lived here - EVERY SINGLE (WITHOUT EXCEPTION) argument or dispute was either with someone Egyptian, or someone Arab. But I don't live in an Arab country. So go figure!?
I had TWO arguments with someone French in my WHOLE LIFE, but one man had a psychological problem, the other is a friend. So that doesnt count. (Im serious.. he was not normal), and still right after harrassing me, he came up and said he was desperately sorry.
Does it mean that ALL Egyptians coming from Egypt to Europe are a pain in the neck? Yes!!!
EVERY single Egyptian i've met in France has told me something that frustrates me (IM NOT KIDDING HERE). THey said "Ohh ... i wouldnt marry european women.. i don't trust them". It turns out that these losers who say that came to the country by marrying women on paper. (Civil unions) JUST to get nationalisation. ANd then they have the nerve to tell me that they don't trust french women?!! What for?? I don't trust them, and i find their actions VERY dishonest.
In the past week, whilst going to the Coptic CHurch, i've met 5 Egyptian men who have told me that they got married on paper. 4 of the 5 seemed SOO Nice. I was soo disappointed to hear that because I started to like them until they told me this... but what bugs me is that EACH man who got married on paper to get a french passport doesnt respect french women NOR can speak French!!!!
That frustrates me.
If an Egyptian is born in France, and they are raised here, we grow up to think of France as our home. Our Country, and we love it and respect it. But because they come here to get money, they don't realise how vile they can be.
Abouna allows all those that got married on paper to attend mass, and i think that if he told them it was a sin what they did, the attendance at Church would fall down to 2%.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5384.msg71680#msg71680 date=1180640214]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5384.msg71679#msg71679 date=1180639934]
Yes. I see.. but that's called "GENERALISATION" not "JUDGING". I generalised.
I cant stand egyptians from Egypt. They bug me.
All of them. If you are from Egypt, and you havent bugged me or annoyed me, its because i havent had the pleasure of knowing you.
yes...am sorry i can't spellll right.
tell me vassilios, did u meet every single egyption that was ever born. i can answer that for you but i'll let you answer it.
also btw, are fully french???
Usually when I write, i never give names about people. For example - i never and will never mention the names of anyone I criticise. For exmaple, the man in the CHurch - i didnt mention his name. The priest who's offensive, i never mentioned his name either. Im more interested in focusing on the problem not the person.
However, given that you havent adopted this civilised and discrete manner with me. Usually, when you write and you use the pronoun "you" - most likely the next word following will be an adjective.
Its best not to use "you", but to focus on the problem, not the person. But given that this is probably ok for you, let me return the favour:
You're clearly uncultivated Servent! Did you know that in Nairobi, His Emminence ANba Antonious Marcos, and ANba Boulis let the Kenyans do a mass in their own "culture". THeir culture is to DANCE during the mass!! Can we go there and say "HEY! DANCING IS WRONG IN THE CHURCH!?"
Can we??? Its their culture... but we don't do that in our Church!!!
This topic is an aim at dissecting the issue of taking Egypt out of the Egyptian Orthodox Church. Its a hard issue, and personal attacks are so unwarranted for.
In France, in the Catholic CHurch, when they say "give a each other a holy kiss, people kiss one another on the cheeks". In the UK, they shake hands at this point. NEVER KISS. So, the same catholic mass still adopts the culture of that country to execute God's will: That we should have a Holy Kiss between others.
In our mass, we say "Give One another a HOLY KISS". A HOLY KISS!! So, we were giving each other HOLY KISSES outside of CHurch... there was nothing unholy about it. What happens is that Copts from Egypt come to France and don't see it has holy. I see it SO HOLY that even i'd be offended if my best friend didnt kiss my wife on her cheeks!!! That would offend me.
So, what's offensive to you (as an Egyptian, for example) is probably totally unoffensive to anyone else.
Women wearing headscarves over their head is a perfect example: THIS IS NOT CULTURAL! ITS RELIGIOUS!! I'd have been MORE than happy if this man had told me to go and tell the women to wear scarves over their heads (in the case the alter was opened)... that's fine... but to ask them to stop greeting each other with kisses is ignorant of that culture. There's NOTHING unholy with kissing on the cheeks!!!
Its wrong to change right from wrong and wrong from right. And what's wrong in ONE culture is probably not wrong in another. This discussion's aim was to look at this issue between what is "ORTHODOX" and what is "EGYPTIAN" and separate or know clearly what is what!!
[quote author=ServantOfJesus link=topic=5384.msg71710#msg71710 date=1180671763]
I'm afraid what you fail to recognize is that he's right. To hell with France, church is church. And that means respect. Do you have a true grasp of respect for the house of God? If the Bible commands us to remain silent, I don't suppose it would consider even kisses upon the cheeks of spouses respectful. If you're dying to kiss your spouse, do so beneath the open skies of France or Zimbabwe. Regardless, do not look down upon someone with a conservative approach to a respect for the Lord simply because he is living in a liberal country. He did not come to France to conform. He probably came for the same reason you did. And if you went to conform, then my utmost pity, friend.
I suppose the French churches are now supposed to be turning into liberal centers with no conventions...it's a pity. Let us not be ignorant.
And of your slandering of the Egyptians you have met, you ought to then slander mankind in general because perhaps some of those individuals have not upheld their integrity, but I'd hate to be rude, neither have you in judgment of them. You appear rather vulgar; and you claim to have a grasp of the "common Egyptian folk" yet you neglect the conditions under which they are raised. Egyptians, just like any other people, are created by the forces surrounding them. In OUR culture, kissing or whatever in the world the French choose to do is not our obligation; if someone chooses not to conform, then oh well. It's not ignorance; it's self-preference. What you conceive as innate simply because you were raised in that society is not innate for all mankind and is not a call to "unawareness" and the numerous offenses you have listed. We ought to be considerate and teach rather than become judgmental and blame. Aye? Forgive me if I appear offensive. I merely have a powerful diction. God bless.
It is odd how often people mistake ethnic practice for Orthodox praxis. What matters is that we treat each other and God's house with due respect.
We have to recognise, when in another country, that things are done rather differently, and if we in someone else's house it is ill-mannered to insist upon our customs; how would we feel if someone came into our house and started insisting we did something their way? If we do not wish to exposed to foreign customs, we can always stay at home.
Here in the UK, at the Coptic Church I sometimes go to, I behave in a different way than I do at the British Orthodox Church; at the latter men and women can sit (on the rare occasions we sit) together; in the Coptic Church men are on one side and women on the other. I respect that at the Coptic Church the majority of the congregation are Egyptian, and I expect to adapt to their way, even though we are in the UK. Equally, if some of that congregation come to our Church, we try to be sensitive to their culture, but hope they will be equally sensitive to things like man and women not being segregated.
Live and let live in these matters is a good Christian maxim.
In Christ,
John
When in another country,things are done differently. We have to accept culture as a way of expression to somehow "do" these different things.
For example, when listening to a sermon in a coptic church, its important to sit up straight... never legs crossed.
In France, its VERY polite to sit this way. What's important that we shouldnt go and tell people what and what not to do when in THEIR country even though its in a Coptic Church. We have to learn to distinguish between what's Orthodox, and what's "holy" , and what isn't.
As I said, a woman wearing a scarf in Church is an act of Orthodoxy, holiness and correctness - regardless of the culture.
Kissing for French people in Church is a very strong sign of respect. Its not emotional. I mean, when we kiss on the cheeks, it means something.. for example, if I don't particularly find attractive, or like a girl, i still have to kiss her. You see.. its NOT sexual.. at all!!!
Kissing for us, is the same as dancing in the Church for the Kenyans! its their way, their most respectable offering for Christ is to Dance for Him DURING THE MASS!!
THis Coptic caretaker is in FRANCE!! You see!!??? He's not in Egypt. He should have the savoir-faire to know that it is a respectable sign of greeting people to kiss them on their cheeks. But what happens is , because they come here off the boat illegally, they work illegally with Egyptians (the only people to employ them).. they stay, and go to Church on sundays.. have they really REALLY lived in France? NOPE!! THey've lived with Egyptians in a european country. They know nothing about our customs in France, our traditions etc, and if they bothered looking, they'd see that the French culture is in fact based on politeness and curteousy. Something , I'm SURE , he'd appreciate if he'd bothered to live in France and deal with French people on a day to day basis.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5384.msg71727#msg71727 date=1180698488]
Dear Vassilios,
It is odd how often people mistake ethnic practice for Orthodox praxis. What matters is that we treat each other and God's house with due respect.
We have to recognise, when in another country, that things are done rather differently, and if we in someone else's house it is ill-mannered to insist upon our customs; how would we feel if someone came into our house and started insisting we did something their way? If we do not wish to exposed to foreign customs, we can always stay at home.
Here in the UK, at the Coptic Church I sometimes go to, I behave in a different way than I do at the British Orthodox Church; at the latter men and women can sit (on the rare occasions we sit) together; in the Coptic Church men are on one side and women on the other. I respect that at the Coptic Church the majority of the congregation are Egyptian, and I expect to adapt to their way, even though we are in the UK. Equally, if some of that congregation come to our Church, we try to be sensitive to their culture, but hope they will be equally sensitive to things like man and women not being segregated.
Live and let live in these matters is a good Christian maxim.
In Christ,
John
You make some excellent points here.
A few weeks ago I went along with others from the British Orthodox Church to an Oriental Orthodox festival at the new Coptic Cathedral of St. George in Stevenage (a wonderful building). There were representatives from all the Oriental Orthodox Churches there. The highlight of the service came after the Liturgy when the Ethiopians and Eritreans got out their drums and did the most wonderful dance; it was an expression of sheer holiness, and all of us were moved - some in more than one way. I noticed with some pleasure that even we rather staid Brits were actually swaying from side to side, carried up by the music into a physical expression of worship for God.
By just accepting the diversity of ways we Orthodox have of worshipping, something very special was added to the day. Afterwards I told the organiser, +Angaelos how much I had enjoyed it and said 'How could you follow that?' To which he said, wisely, 'Why do you think I had it at the end?' He was spot on.
You can find more about the Festival on this site at http://www.copticcentre.com/oriental07.html
In Christ,
Anglian
"Sayedna, that's great... (that they play drums and dance in churches) - i guess its ok for us to do that and not only that, i think the drums would make the tasbeha sounds SOOO NICE".
He said "No! That's in Kenya. THat's their way... we respect their culture and THEIR way of expressing joy. It is not our way in Europe. "
So, he is wise, and a good man. We have to distinguish between what's Orthodox, and what's culture. Again, this motakhalif egyptian man is living his EGYPTIAN culture in FRANCE, and it doesnt work. I know this as in Egypt, guys don't kiss girls when they meet them - no matter how close. Its all "3eab" .
As for "Servant of Jesus" - who thinks that it is wrong to conform, there is some truth, but unfortunately mixed with ignorance and lack of maturity in what she says.
For example, I have a friend who became orthodox, who was born and bred in France by French parents. This person catagorically refused to go to a nightclub some friends who persuaded everyone to hire nudists dancers. lol . So, the culture is ONE thing, and my faith is another. THe same here.. my friends wished to go to a prostitution house for their batchelor party, i refused WHOLE HEARTEDLY. There was no question. I'm going to say "Well.. when in rome do as the romans". But what bothers me is this: THe Egyptians living in France have no idea what the romans do!! THey don't live amongst them!!
For example, had Anba Antonios Marcos and Anba Bolis not mixed and gotten to know the Kenyan culture, they'd not have realised that dancing was their way of expressing joy. Our way is to stand still and sing joyful songs. But because they got to know the kenyan culture, they respected their way of expressing joyful songs in the mass.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5384.msg71736#msg71736 date=1180704785]
Dear Vassilios,
You make some excellent points here.
A few weeks ago I went along with others from the British Orthodox Church to an Oriental Orthodox festival at the new Coptic Cathedral of St. George in Stevenage (a wonderful building). There were representatives from all the Oriental Orthodox Churches there. The highlight of the service came after the Liturgy when the Ethiopians and Eritreans got out their drums and did the most wonderful dance; it was an expression of sheer holiness, and all of us were moved - some in more than one way. I noticed with some pleasure that even we rather staid Brits were actually swaying from side to side, carried up by the music into a physical expression of worship for God.
By just accepting the diversity of ways we Orthodox have of worshipping, something very special was added to the day. Afterwards I told the organiser, +Angaelos how much I had enjoyed it and said 'How could you follow that?' To which he said, wisely, 'Why do you think I had it at the end?' He was spot on.
You can find more about the Festival on this site at http://www.copticcentre.com/oriental07.html
In Christ,
Anglian
but vassilios, for some reason u skipped my small tiny and little question:
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5384.msg71680#msg71680 date=1180640214]
did u meet every single egyption that was ever born?... i can answer that for you but i'll let you answer it.
i had an austrian father and i have an egyptian mother...there are other couples in our church...egyptian man and non egyptian woman...a lot...
so thats not true what u said...
and if there is an egyptian guy or mor than one with saying "haram"...there are a lot of them...let them be like they are...u cant change them...
p4m
Thanks for the topic, and the debates. Great for us all to learn. I just want to stress out on some points: some might have already been mentioned, and some I come up with.
As I know where most of the people discussing this topic, and where they live, the only one I don't know is servantofJesus. I tried her name's link, but it doesn't say where she lives or where she was born. Not very nosy, but just want to address each one in their own background; here I go:
The main point of discrepancy in this topic is CULTURE. As minagir, and anglian both rightly pointed out, it has a great effect on the practice inside, as well as outside the Church. BUT, and a very big BUT, I completely disagree with servantofJesus. Kissing in the church is not disrespect for God, nor is it a flouting with the Coptic Orthodox belief, or anything like this. It is just that we are not used to it (as I lived in Egypt for 27 years of my life) because of our upbringing. We are brought up in a country that forces women to wear certain clothes, and men to always mention the name of God IN VAIN (even when they are stealing): in other words, Islamised culture from outside, and so empty inside.
HAVING SAID THAT, I don't really agree with vassilios, that boyfriends and girlfriends should kiss inside the church. I would go with those who are engaged, or married, or relatives of course, that is to say those with a some bond in the church: otherwise, it may, and only may, cause some kind of a stumble to weak fellow Copts. I don't agree with vassilios in another point, about those Egyptians (who he said with a slight SENSE of judgement) trying to westernise and divorce God and the church. Not all Egyptians do this after they immigrate, and even if some of them do, this is not the issue of our topic. But, I really have to say that vassilios is well-spoken, and I agree with all the other 80 - 90 points or so that he mentioned about Egyptians.
In conclusion, I hope we all look to Jesus Christ, and whether He will approve of things like this or not; and in all honesty, I don't really have to flick a brain cell in doubt that Jesus would not be happy about a fiance kissing his fiancee, or a man kissing his wife, or uncommonly enough a boy kissing his sister inside the church.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Thank you so much for that thoughtful post which draws together so much of what we have been discussing here.
At the end, the important thing is to behave in a manner that does not intentionally cause discomfort to others. Of course, getting the cultural register right is difficult, and sometimes one will inadvertently offend; at that point one hopes that others will not go into some overreaction, and will realise why one has offended. One should show that tolerance oneself.
Some things are, however, obvious, or so one would think. A priest (EO) told me recently that at a service in his Church in the US some young women turned up in halter tops and shorts; now how anyone could think that was the way to come to Church, I cannot imagine - even in the USA.
The main principle seems to be to be modest in dress and behaviour, and to respect others the way you want them to respect you; if in doubt, see what those around you are doing.
We are all Christian brothers and sisters, so let us treat one another as such.
In Christ,
Anglian
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
my parents lived here {USA} for 15 years and they sometimes copmplain about what im doing and i tell them that we r not in masr here, we r in America, but egypt is still in thier blood and its always going to be even if i like it or not, so dont be mad at that guy {or another egyptian that annoyed you}
its his nature and hes not going to change
hope i helped
pp4m
EgY :)
Dear all,
Thanks for the topic, and the debates. Great for us all to learn. I just want to stress out on some points: some might have already been mentioned, and some I come up with.
As I know where most of the people discussing this topic, and where they live, the only one I don't know is servantofJesus. I tried her name's link, but it doesn't say where she lives or where she was born. Not very nosy, but just want to address each one in their own background; here I go:
The main point of discrepancy in this topic is CULTURE. As minagir, and anglian both rightly pointed out, it has a great effect on the practice inside, as well as outside the Church. BUT, and a very big BUT, I completely disagree with servantofJesus. Kissing in the church is not disrespect for God, nor is it a flouting with the Coptic Orthodox belief, or anything like this. It is just that we are not used to it (as I lived in Egypt for 27 years of my life) because of our upbringing. We are brought up in a country that forces women to wear certain clothes, and men to always mention the name of God IN VAIN (even when they are stealing): in other words, Islamised culture from outside, and so empty inside.
HAVING SAID THAT, I don't really agree with vassilios, that boyfriends and girlfriends should kiss inside the church. I would go with those who are engaged, or married, or relatives of course, that is to say those with a some bond in the church: otherwise, it may, and only may, cause some kind of a stumble to weak fellow Copts. I don't agree with vassilios in another point, about those Egyptians (who he said with a slight SENSE of judgement) trying to westernise and divorce God and the church. Not all Egyptians do this after they immigrate, and even if some of them do, this is not the issue of our topic. But, I really have to say that vassilios is well-spoken, and I agree with all the other 80 - 90 points or so that he mentioned about Egyptians.
In conclusion, I hope we all look to Jesus Christ, and whether He will approve of things like this or not; and in all honesty, I don't really have to flick a brain cell in doubt that Jesus would not be happy about a fiance kissing his fiancee, or a man kissing his wife, or uncommonly enough a boy kissing his sister inside the church.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Hang on! I never said Boyfriends and girlfriends should kiss in the Church. The point i was making is PEOPLE should kiss in the Church!! HAS ANYONE IN THE FORUM EVER TRAVELLED OUTSIDE OF EGYPT!!?? Do u realise in France , its VERY RUDE to shake hands with a girl u meet!! YOU have to kiss her on the cheeks!! What happened was that people were greeting each other with kisses in the Church, and some motakhalif guy started complaining about it!!!
My point is this: Kissing is part of the culture of France!!! OK!!! So, the man complaining is NOT really respecting the way people greet in France!! Im not saying they were kissing on the cheeks.. NO!
Secondly, if eating meat causes your brother to stumble, then stop eating meat?! That's very noble of you, but it comes to a point where you have to stop living because how u live makes your brother stumble. I think its best to educate your brother on what's right and what's wrong in the eyes of God.
Look: Im not saying u should have SEX with someone in Church. This is not the french culture. Im saying that in some cultures, kissing ON THE CHEEKS (!!!!!!!!!) is a normal way of greeting one another!!!! OUFF!!!!
I mentioned the verse "if meat causes my brother to stumble, I will not eat meat" to give excuses to that guy: with all due respect, I agree with you that he is rather less-educated and motakhalif, and I understand the etiquette in France. What I meant is as long as it is a greeting kiss that is ok, but let's not just take it as an excuse for boyfriends and girlfriends to kiss "in an unholy way" inside the church. I know I don't put myself across that well, but I agree with most of what you said in your topic; it is just that I disagreed with more points than with other members, but on the whole I agree with most of what you said. No offence or heartfeelings.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Dear vassilios,
I mentioned the verse "if meat causes my brother to stumble, I will not eat meat" to give excuses to that guy: with all due respect, I agree with you that he is rather less-educated and motakhalif, and I understand the etiquette in France. What I meant is as long as it is a greeting kiss that is ok, but let's not just take it as an excuse for boyfriends and girlfriends to kiss "in an unholy way" inside the church. I know I don't put myself across that well, but I agree with most of what you said in your topic; it is just that I disagreed with more points than with other members, but on the whole I agree with most of what you said. No offence or heartfeelings.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Did ANYONE here think i meant kissing on the lips? Man.. no ... but still , if two people are married and DO kiss on the lips, its still holy!!!! I have NO problem with that. Today, in mass... (I went to a catholic church) and there was this couple singing and they just hugged each other. I can tell u, it was a very warm, clean and holy sight in fact. They couple were married etc... and even if they weren't its NONE of my business what people so long as they don't make a noise. I can't understand why this egyptian guy insists on telling others what to do. He can mind his own business and focus on the prayer.
THis is a "typical" view from an egyptian: "if something makes my brother stumble, i'll refrain from doing it". Let me rephrase it another way:
If something I do that I DO NOT believe is wrong MAKES u stumble, then how about this: look or do something else... because it gets to the point that what makes an egyptian from Egypt "stumble" is ANYTHING that conflicts with the way he was raised in Egypt.
As I said: There are things that are HOLY and CHRISTIAN, we can do in the Church, and there are cultural things we do in the Church. Both can go and hand in hand. One is not necessarily exclusive of the other.
Frankly speaking , people make themselves stumble: If I see a 1/2 naked woman in the street, and i look, the 1st look is my fault. Its true she could make me stumble. She has ALL the right in the world to be 1/2 naked. But, if i REALLY REALLY care about stumbling, then for GOODNESS SAKE, why don't i just lower my head, turn my eyes, and pray for her, and walk away....
But egyptians have this habit of telling others how to live their life, because they are worried about stumbling!????
I hate that.
Smoking chokes me. I hate it. I think its unfair that people smoke, because non smokers , if we mix with them, we are bound to inhale their cigarette smoke. But after the Church, i see 100000's of egyptians standing outside the Church smoking. Do i go and complain and tell them that they are making me stumble, or do i just walk quickly to avoid inhaling!!!??????????????????
Like I said: if something we do makes YOU stumble, or anyone, then its best to ask if it is Christian or not Christian. Is it holy or not holy???? Not everythng is wrong!! And as Isiah says: "Woe to those who change right from wrong and wrong from right".
This is so important because perhaps we can end up apologising for our existance if we are raised in a certain culture or country that results in us having certain manners/etiquettes that makes an Egyptian motakhalif person, who is Totally ignorant of the culture or country he/she is in, stumble!!!!! Where do we draw the line???
What if my name is Pierre ? Egyptians will pronounce that "Biere" which means "Beer".What if they think "beer" is wrong? Do we change our names because they are soo dumb to know the difference between "P"ierre and "B"iere??? What do we do!!???