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Baptism through water and Spirit?

Unknown
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hey everyone,

Is it necessary to be baptized by water? Is baptism by Spirit enough to gain the kingdom of heaven? If so, how are you baptized by the Spirit without water?

Thanks

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  • Unknown
    [quote author=esakla23 link=board=4;threadid=4481;start=0#msg61683 date=1160032454]
    Hey everyone,

    Is it necessary to be baptized by water? Is baptism by Spirit enough to gain the kingdom of heaven? If so, how are you baptized by the Spirit without water?

    Thanks


    Yes, there has to be water. The idea of baptism in the Spirit only is a very recent idea propogated by Pentacostal Protestants. It is not a Christian idea.

    Unless you're a martyr, in which case you are baptised in your own blood so to speak.
  • Unknown
    Well, the reason I posted this question is because I got into a conversation with my roommate, who is a Pentacostal, about baptism. I gave him references from the Bible, John 3:5 and Acts 8:36, that says that there needs to be water in baptism. But he still insists that water is only a symbol in baptism, and it is not needed.
    His case is that John the Baptist says that I baptize with water only, but He who comes after me baptizes with the Holy Spirit. He does not say that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and water. He also says that Jesus' disciples were not baptized with water, they were only baptized by the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure if this is right or not, and I couldn't find any Bible verses that say that the 12 disciples were baptized with water.
    Any Bible verses that further support the necessity of baptism with water is appreciated. Orthodox11, can you please explain why there has to be water.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=esakla23 link=board=4;threadid=4481;start=0#msg61705 date=1160054399]
    Well, the reason I posted this question is because I got into a conversation with my roommate, who is a Pentacostal, about baptism. I gave him references from the Bible, John 3:5 and Acts 8:36, that says that there needs to be water in baptism. But he still insists that water is only a symbol in baptism, and it is not needed.
    His case is that John the Baptist says that I baptize with water only, but He who comes after me baptizes with the Holy Spirit. He does not say that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and water.


    St. John the Baptist might not have, but St. John the Apostle says very clearly in his Gospel (3:5), which you say you already mentioned, that Jesus said we are born "of water and of the Spirit."


    He also says that Jesus' disciples were not baptized with water, they were only baptized by the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure if this is right or not, and I couldn't find any Bible verses that say that the 12 disciples were baptized with water.

    Well, the word "baptism" itself means immersion. So the very word indicates that water is used.

    Look at 1 Peter 3:20-21:
    "...when the long-suffering God was waiting in the days of Noah, while an ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by means of water. There is also an antitype which now saveth us – baptism"

    St. Peter is clearly stating that just as Noah and his family were saved by means of water, so we are saved by means of water in baptism.

    There are many other verses that speak of baptism with water. Also, the Fathers of the Church from the very earliest of times said we are reborn through baptism in water.

    For example:
    "Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" Justin Martyr 151A.D.

    So we can appeal to the very earliest Christians. Your Pentacostal friend, however, belongs to a tradition that originated in 19th century America: a product of man, not God.


    Orthodox11, can you please explain why there has to be water.

    Why God chose to institute baptism by means of water rather than some other substance (or any at all) I don't know. But I do know, from the Bible, the Fathers, etc. that He did institute baptism by means of water.
  • Unknown

    Well, the reason I posted this question is because I got into a conversation with my roommate, who is a Pentacostal, about baptism. I gave him references from the Bible, John 3:5 and Acts 8:36, that says that there needs to be water in baptism. But he still insists that water is only a symbol in baptism, and it is not needed.

    Your friend commits what is called eisegesis; he is reading his own preconceived ideas into the Scriptures. These verses speak of the necessity of water and Spirit. It's not up to him to conclude that the water spoken of is symbolic, especially when the text itself does not indicate that it is intended in that manner.

    Any Bible verses that further support the necessity of baptism with water is appreciated.

    Orthodoxy is not about Bible-proof texting. Your first error is submitting to his paradigm of Biblical exegesis which is shaped by his sola scriptura presuppositions. You’re approaching dialogue with him all wrong, and I strongly recommend you cease dialogue with him unless you are capable of and willing to dispute the very interpretive framework which he works within. Orthodoxy does not ask “What does the Bible say?” It asks “What does the mind of the Trinity say?” The “mind of the Trinity” is revealed to the Church—the Body of Christ, through Her head, the Lord Christ Himself. This revelation is what we call the “Tradition” of the Church, which gave birth to the Scriptures in the first place. Unless Scripture is properly understood within this framework, then it is not properly understood period.

    The Tradition of the Church which encompasses the Scriptures, the Apostolic oral tradition, the Councils etc. dictates that the physical and spiritual are always intimately related; the former has no value in and of itself, and the latter is made comprehensible to us visibly and externally through the former. That is the essential redemptive result of “God become man”.

    His case is that John the Baptist says that I baptize with water only, but He who comes after me baptizes with the Holy Spirit. He does not say that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and water.

    Do you think it would have made any difference to him had the verse said that Christ would baptise with the Holy Spirit and water? He would have copped-out in the same manner he did when you referred him to John 3:5, “oh, umm, well the term water is being used ‘symbolically’!” This is the circular nature of argument that you are essentially pulling yourself in by tacitly accepting his flawed interpretive framework. The only real solution to this problem is not Bible proof-texting, but rather a debunking of the very foundations of his methodology.

    He is not even interpreting the verse in question within the context of the immediate passage let alone within the context of the entire Tradition of the Church. The key to understanding verse 8 is verse 4; the point St. John is making is that his baptism is merely prepatory, whereas redemptive regeneration through the Spirit comes through the work of Christ. The emphasis of verse 8 then is not on the exclusivity of the Spirit apart from any material substance, but rather the exclusivity of Christ’s Baptism apart from John’s as being effective by the Spirit per se. How does the Spirit effect our regeneration? The passage in question is not concerned with finding an answer to that. The answer to that question is found in John 3:5, which means…we run in circles again and again until he submits his conscious to that of the Church which is guided by the very effector of Baptism Himself-The Holy Spirit.

    Furthermore, Christ’s physical baptism in physical water further emphasises the above principle regarding the Orthodox experience being one of shared intimacy between the material and spiritual. The Fathers teach us that Christ was in no need of baptism, either for repentance or the remission of sins, but rather that the purpose of His baptism was to sanctify the water in order to render it ready and effective for our own baptism. Every point in Christ’s Incarnate Life, from His conception in the womb of the Virgin till His death and Resurrection, had the purpose of reconciling the earthly with the heavenly; of transforming, by sanctifying, that which had fallen through the sin of Adam (man and all creation), to its original state of goodness in which it was created.
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