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whats the point?
i had a question that was bothering me since i was little, why do we have to sing our church hymns long, like for example ke eperto is WAY to long, by the time i finish the kee part and start the eperto i forgot what i said first.
why does it have to be that complicated?
GBU
sandra
why does it have to be that complicated?
GBU
sandra
Comments
anyway if you look all long hymns have a short version
there is a short ke eperto but we say the longer cuz its sadder and that the feel of thepascha :'(
listen to this:
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns%2FFasts%2FNativity%2FHigher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies%2FPart_3%2F04.Teoi_Enhikanos-Great.726.mp3 (THE LLONGEST HYMN IN THE OUR CHURCH)
and yes we have to chant and sing everything. don't forget that's the way the heavenly talk and worship God (as ravelations say). also am sure Hos Erof would know batter and get you more bible verses about that.
(a small story on the side):
HG Late Metrobolitin Youannes of Tanta has said once that he was taken once in his asleep to paradise and also to hell. he says St. Mary took him there and he acutly saw one of his old servants that were good in his eyes, but he saw him hell. but he couldn't do anything about it. so st.Mary also took him to rest place and showed him all the saint and he saw his chair up there. but it wasn't the time for him St. Mary said. the importatn thing here is that while all of that, he rembers EVERY ONE in heaven speaking and chanting and singing and praying like our coptic hymns. so in a way he wasn't really surprised of the way they spoke.
so also when we depart, the language of praising and and praying and also speaking, wouldn't be hard to learn. because of our God's geat love, he even taught us the way to praise him, to pray for him, to speak to him, and to also always have him in our hearts.
also you all know about how sometimes these hymns can bring ppl from darkness to light and also to remind them the right way.
but i htink that point is that so we could meditate on the words and not just read stuff and not know what it means
love lots,
CopticChica21
love lots,
CopticChica21
and whats the point of singing owowowowowowow eeeee owowowowow for like 1 hour in hymns like on Good friday, and saying like 1 word in 30 min? :-\ ....and then there is tasbeha where its the complete opposite u say 7 million words in 1 second ....and deacons are like competing to see who is fastest.... :-\ .....i love church....but i just dont understand this .....i dont see why we say 1 word in like forever....and at the same time i dont think we should rush prayers and try to say them as quick as possible :-\
thats what i am talking about..this was the reason i stopped going to tasbeha lately because of our fasting forward deacons..they don't give the word its time t be said like for example the first hose they finish it in like 4 or 5 mins max.. and the thing about we got it from our church fathers in the past i still don't get it still.. why and whats the point of saying it soo slow.. is it gonna make a diff. when we say it slow but not like SUPER SLOW? alittle help here? ???
GBU
sandra
First of all, chanting at a real high speed and competing is really wrong, cause there's no time to really think about what u chant or better yet, to pray the words!
The purpose of long hymns is to give a chance to really feel the words (for example pekethronos, the first part is so sad, and reflects perfectly the feelings of the mourning over sins that caused our Saviour to die on the cross).
Another example is the mournfull Tai shouri in the 6th hour of good friday. If u listen to it, it really feels as if the hymn is crying and mourning over the crucified Christ (keep in mind this is a hymn for the virgin Mary, so it reflects her feelings at the crucifixion).
There's tons of examples, i suggest u go to the contemplations part on the site copticheritage.org
The point is that long hymns give you an opportunity to contemplate, and to experience the words of the hymn. the bible tells us to sing praises with understanding, how cool is it that our church composed wonderfull hymns that portray the feelings and allow us time to contemplate and pray during the chant.
I know the reality isnt always as wonderfull as the way it was meant. We have little time to chant everything and give it its due time, which results in the running during tasbeha etc. There's a simple solution though, dont chant all the long hymns, but chant the rest with a good speed.
The reason people find long hymns boring is because they dont understand the hymn, or dont know it. Of course something is boring when u dont know it. Solution; learn the hymns lol.
We had a group of girls at our church who had zero knowledge of hymnology. We thaught them a few basic things for last Nativity feast, and when they heard the hymns being chanted they were so happy and participated.
It portrays a saying we have in dutch: onbekend maakt onbemind; something that is unknown makes it unloved.
http://www.copticheritage.org/PagEd+index-page_id-749.phtml
[quote author=PrincessMary link=board=2;threadid=3590;start=0#msg51878 date=1144115410]
and whats the point of singing owowowowowowow eeeee owowowowow for like 1 hour in hymns like on Good friday, and saying like 1 word in 30 min? :-\ ....and then there is tasbeha where its the complete opposite u say 7 million words in 1 second ....and deacons are like competing to see who is fastest.... :-\ .....i love church....but i just dont understand this .....i dont see why we say 1 word in like forever....and at the same time i dont think we should rush prayers and try to say them as quick as possible :-\
thats what i am talking about..this was the reason i stopped going to tasbeha lately because of our fasting forward deacons..they don't give the word its time t be said like for example the first hose they finish it in like 4 or 5 mins max.. and the thing about we got it from our church fathers in the past i still don't get it still.. why and whats the point of saying it soo slow.. is it gonna make a diff. when we say it slow but not like SUPER SLOW? alittle help here? ???
GBU
sandra
sorry sandra, but that's somtimes how the deacons chant when thay just get TOO used to a hymn fast or slow. first you're rit, slow hymns shouldn't be to slow. even if you can Listen to Muallem Mikhael or Sadek or Tawfik or Farag, which are the true sources, they don't chant long long hymns that slow. they go just slow enough to first understand the word like a lot said, AND not to bored from praising God. We should praise God with all joyous hearts. SOOOO, it's all the deaconsssssss.
Sorry...... :)
For example, the hymn "Bek Ethronos", in its very long tune, symbolizes that while our Lord and King Jesus Christ is being burried and to the eyes of the unbelievers He is dead, we firmly believe that He remains God, the eternal, the One before the Ages, the Word, and this eternity is expressed by long tunes.
It will be nice that "O Monogenees" is refered to its original writer, St. Severus, and explain the circumstances that led to writing of the song and some quick christological explanation of the hymn in the circumstances that led to its inspiration by the great confessor St. Severus, who has blessed Egypt with his visit.
It would be also nice (in fact great) if the common misconception about this hymn's author, being Justinian Emperor, known for his crimes and heresies, is clarified and the fact that he "stole" the hymn from St. Severus.
For Pek Ethronos, the second part is also joyous because, if you read the translation, although you are remembering that Jesus has died, you are also remembering that his throne is forever and ever.
Besides, don't you think that you'd be just a little bit bored if everything was just plainly read?
I personally love our Church hymns, and the many tunes of our Church (joyous, sad, advent/Kiahk, Lent weekdays, Lent weekends, Palm Sunday, annual,etc.). They're so awesome!
[quote author=Gods kid link=board=2;threadid=3590;start=15#msg51939 date=1144197103]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that every note or hazaa has its meaning. Like, I don't remember the hymn, but there's a part in a hymn where your voice is supposed to "dip" down, symbolizing Jesus' being baptized in the Jordan River.
I agree with every word PrincessMary is saying. mosh ma32ola el taree2a ely el shamamsah beysabe7o beha sa3at. especially during the midnight praises/tasbeha during 3asheyah. they sing one tasbeha & its labash in about 4 minutes, for crying out loud!!!!!!!!! no one could convince me that this act of theirs is justified by the weak reason that they know it "too" much. ya3ny eh ba2a.... 3ashan 3arfeen el tasbe7a w'7afzenha, ma3naha yekarwetoha!!! >:( the sole purpose of praises and praising is to converse with God. if you are truly honest in your conversation and feelings with God, you would naturally want to feel and focus on each word your singing. 3asheya is too short, u say?! okay, fine... forget about feeling and focusing on what ur saying, u can do that at home. but at least be aware of what ur saying. anyway, i could go on and on regarding this topic, but what i have written will partially suffice what i had to say about this issue. God bless.
About tasbeha, I guess they do go pretty fast.
particularly to PrincessMary, whom i have noticed loves hymns in general, and has a continually growing collection which i am amazed at personally
please speak to the deacons who do tasbeha at your church. i myself am a deacon and feel just like you when they speed it up and try to rush it, they usually are very tired and feel that no one is participating so they just go fast because they know it and have no problems going fast, but if you ask them i am sure they will be more than happy to go a lot slower. However, i suggest you never go to a monastery or convent for tasbeha (which they usually do in the very early morning) because if you think your church deacons are fast, you're wrong.
i personally go fast when i notice there is no one else in the church, because these days, where i am, there are very few people who attend if at all, but when there are people i take my time and enjoy it with them because indeed, we are praising God in His very house.
and naturally to sandrahanna
you will hear people tell you that its the tradition and the way it has always been done and that it has "this meaning, and that meaning", do not think on that, i suggest to you, especially during periods of the passion week, read the psalms of the pascha alone in your room in your own time, and sit and contemplate on them and focus on the meaning, and then go and look up the whole psalm or psalms. I believe you will take more than 10 minutes doing that, now every time you hear that psalm in the long tune you will remember everything you have contemplated and read. It will help you, and it will also help that if, with time, you try to remain standing during the whole prayer of the pascha. Very few people do this now, but for those who have trouble concentrating, it is a great way to assist yourself to focus on the words and the depth of the pasha
the passover
and the resurrection
please forgive me if i have offended anyone
your brother in Christ
mina