homosexuality-- biological?

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
hey guys i havent been here for a while so hopefully i will be welcomed again :)

neways i just read in my psychology book that researchers have found a correlation with biological factors and being homosexual

for instance, they found that when ppl are gay, they tended to be left-handed, had special fingerprints, and had a particualar gene that heterosexual ppl didnt have. Also, they found statistics with twins that led them to believe that when one identical twin is gay, there is a 50% chance the other too will be gay.

So yea this research baffled me because i have always been taught that being gay is a socially constructed condition, and that biology has no role.

Can someone plz give me more evidence and reason as to why our church doesnt think its a biologically- based condition?

Comments

  • [quote author=Youstina S link=board=1;threadid=3357;start=0#msg49131 date=1141195961]
    hey guys i havent been here for a while so hopefully i will be welcomed again :)

    neways i just read in my psychology book that researchers have found a correlation with biological factors and being homosexual

    for instance, they found that when ppl are gay, they tended to be left-handed, had special fingerprints, and had a particualar gene that heterosexual ppl didnt have. Also, they found statistics with twins that led them to believe that when one identical twin is gay, there is a 50% chance the other too will be gay.

    So yea this research baffled me because i have always been taught that being gay is a socially constructed condition, and that biology has no role.

    Can someone plz give me more evidence and reason as to why our church doesnt think its a biologically- based condition?


    Homosexuality might well be a combination of biological, as well as social factors. However, we must remember that even though people could argue that such behaviour is therefore "natural", this nature is fallen and mankind is prone to corruption and death.

    Secondly we must remember that homosexuals, like all other people, have been given free will and reasoning faculties, which mean that - biological or not - they have a choice as to whether they act on their impulses.

    There has also been shown that biological factors make people more prone to violence, theft, alcoholism, etc which are all sinful, but, while we should sympathise with such people because of the difficult position they're in, we nevertheless expect such people to control these tendencies and abide by the law - society's and God's.
  • Orthodox11 your answer is very credible, however, i am still confused because one of my church's priests mentioned one time in his sermon that being homosexual is NOT biological...ppl just convincing themselves that it is biological just so that they could justify the act of being homosexual

    so in that sense, what do we tell ppl when they ask us why we dont agree with homosexuality? I mean, aside from the evidence in the Bible, ppl are going to want to know why we dont agree with homosexuality and they'll ask us why we are discriminating against those who are 'born' gay.

    So my question really is, what exactly does our church feel about biological factors in determining one's sexual orientation??
  • That's just a theory..come on..at one point in time, 'reasearchers' thought the earth was the center of the solar system..Do I believe that homosexuality is biological? Never..buut, I happend to find my own correlation to homosexuality..all homosexuals have some kind of social problem..seriously, like without making fun of anyone..the homosexuals I know are like depressed because they're either fat, think they're unattractive, or without friends..ALL of them are like that..I think that's why..they wanna be different and try to find a solution to their social problems..people aren't BORN gay..they have a gay gene now? What kind of theory is that? And if there exists such a 'gene' why is it that only under 'depression' or ridiculous social conditions does it finally kick in? Do you ever see someone HAPPY and normal and suddenly they turn gay? I don't accept homosexuality because it's illogical to claim that people are born that way. What, because someone has a low-self esteem, they have that gene so it's OKAY for them to be homo? It just doesn't make sense..all genes have some kind of pattern, process, conditions..things that are SOLID facts..but this 'gene', where's the solid fact behind it? Is there a certain age when it starts acting out? There's no found evidence that it even exists because there's no traces of a pattern of change..and allow me to make known that MANY nations don't have many homosexuals if any..so this gene..it's only found in America? It's only found in corrupt societies? And regardless of whether or not this is secular, our Creator has not blindly created this gene yet destroyed Sodom and Gommorah for the same gene He 'created' in them. Hopefully someone smart finally comes out and proves all those trying to find good reason for social illness wrong..utterly and completely wrong..
  • Youstina,

    The fact of the matter is that being homosexual per se i.e. possessing a homosexual disposition, is not a sin. It is homosexual activity that constitutes sin. As His Grace Bishop Youssef says: "Our Coptic Orthodox Church does not condemn people but condemn their acts and would minister to homosexuals who wish to find release from this inclination." In this sense, being born homosexual or not, does not challenge our Church's stance on the issue.

    Subsequent to the fall of Adam and Eve, disease and corruption was introduced into the nature of man. Hence, some people are born with aids, others are born with physical disabilities (maybe they're born blind), and others are born with pyschological disabilities. We can classify homosexuality as a psychological disease.

    In this case, homosexuality is simply a Cross that a homosexual must bear. A homosexual is expected to live a celibate life, refusing his or her temptations.

    I see no theological reason why a priest would insist on claiming that homosexuality is not biological. If he has engaged with modern science on the issue, and is making his arguments from a scientific point of view, then that is another issue. His Grace Bishop Youssef for example, states his opinion on the matter with reference to his understanding of the discoveries of scientific research:

    "No one is born homosexual, nor is it something over which one has no control. It is a fact that our biological composition has a profound influence on our lives. Hormones have a great impact on our sexual drive. However, scientists have found that the hormonal level of male and female homosexuals to be the same as heterosexuals. There is no scientific evidence to support the notion that homosexuality is inherited. It is safe to say that one's genetic and biological makeup does indeed determine his or her sex, but not his or her sexual preference.

    Homosexuality is a learned behavior. Homosexuals develop homosexuality by thinking positively of homosexual practices. Participating in such practices provides pleasure and consequently leads to acceptance and positive thoughts toward homosexuals."


    I personally am not learned in this area of modern science to give you my judgment on the matter.
  • i think this is a very interesting topic...but i no for certain that the Church does not believe at all that homosexuals are that way because of genetics or biology....i heard anba moussa say that in one of the conventions nd he stressed on that fact...he said that there was still no evidence that homosexuals were genetically made that way nd there will never be

    if u think about it...it does make sense...b/c God said that homosexuals will not enter heaven and yet on the other hand God wants everyone to go to heaven and He is a just GOd. so for HIm to create people that are Homosexuals disproves the fact that GOd is just b/c they have no chance of entering heaven
  • Ultimately, this is a question for modern science, and not a question for the Church. Priests are only correct on this matter insofar as their conclusions conform with the scientific evidence at hand.

    There is simply no theological relevance to this question...
  • iqbal im gonna have to disagree with u.....this issue has everything to do with religion and the church. if u think about it, if scientists did find a genetic link to gays then that what just make GOd an unjust and contradictory God!!! if GOd specifically says that gays are not going to heaven no matter what yet he creates them gay...then god is sooo unjust!! he is basically creating all these gay people to go to hell...GOd would never do something like that!!!! just like evolution...science believes that we all evolved from apes....yet god says he created us... r u gonna say that religion has nothing to do with this issue also since science disagrees with god!!! no!!!
  • if GOd specifically says that gays are not going to heaven no matter what yet he creates them gay...then god is sooo unjust!!

    Please read my first post for context. God does not say homosexuals are not going to heaven according to their possessing that very predisposition. It is practising homosexuals that are being condemned. A homosexual who learns to live a celibate life until, if ever, he or she manages to overcome this predisposition, is not condemned.
  • copticqt, i mostly disagree with u!!!

    If God says liars dont go to heaven, and i have a gene that causes me for some reason to ly (and a lot of ur character can be found in the genome!!!), does that make God unfair? No of course not!!!!

    Everybody is called to strive against sin, no matter what the cause is! Everybody can be baptised, and everybody can receive the sacraments and grace, and become a new creation in Christ to trample on all sins. Everybody is called to put off the old man, and take on the new one!!

    Besides, someone with homosexual feelings is not a sinner, its the one who does not strive against it and fulfills his/her lusts, which is the same with any sin basicaly, and all sinners dont go to heaven unless they repent.

    so i really fail to see ur point here!!!!!
  • I just have to say 1 quick thing, if our members didn't say it already, Pope Shenouda III created a book called homosexuality, so if you would want information about it in depth, I recommend you to read this book, you'll probably want to know the advice from someone who keeps us awake, and to preach and our messenger from God!

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • looks like we posted in the same time there lol
  • [quote author=Iqbal link=board=1;threadid=3357;start=0#msg49155 date=1141234750]
    The fact of the matter is that being homosexual per se i.e. possessing a homosexual disposition, is not a sin. It is homosexual activity that constitutes sin.



    I'm sorry Iqbal, and please forgive me for you have helped me on many topics, but I must disagree on this point. If you have a homosexual desire, it is commiting adultry. Our Lord Jesus was talking about looking at woman lustfully in this quote:

    "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:28

    I am not saying that if you have a homosexual gene (which is of now just a theory and is not definite) in you that it is a sin, but having the homosexual desire is a sin.

    Please forgive me and pray for me,

    Godhelpme3691
  • I'm sorry Iqbal, and please forgive me for you have helped me on many topics, but I must disagree on this point. If you have a homosexual desire, it is commiting adultry. Our Lord Jesus was talking about looking at woman lustfully in this quote:

    "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:28

    Where did I mention anything about lust? I spoke of the homosexual disposition, which is merely the natural tendency or inclination towards a person of the same sex, as opposed to the natural tendency or inclination towards a person of the opposite sex which defines the heterosexual disposition.

    Lust is a sin, whether it be committed by a homosexual or a heterosexual; it is not unique to the homosexual disposition, so I fail to see the relevance that lust has to the issue of one possessing a specifically homosexual disposition. Lust is the active engagement of sexually related thoughts. One can be a homosexual, without engaging in any sort of homosexual activity, whether that be in thought or action.
  • It is pertinent that one realize that the issue of homesexuality is far from being definitvely calrified, scientifically. There is no positive assertion wherther homosexuality is a genetic or social-culturaly constructed trait. With the little scope of evidence at our disposal, one is left to adhere to one view or the other on the basis of a preponderance of faith, rather then factual evidence.

    As such being the case, consider one statistic;

    Althougth idenitcal twins share 100% of their gentic structure, only 52% of twins, together, pursue a homosexual orientation. For the other 48%, only one twin was found to endorse in a homsexual relationship while the other had not. (Bailey and Pillard 1991)

    While one may argue that due to societal homophobia and hostile expresssion, the other twin was inhibited from embracing his true inhernet aspiriations, one may invertedly counterargue that due to societal conditioning (stress, sexual relativism, the appease for sensual gratification, abuse...etc) the original twin felt compelled to purue a homosexual lifestyle.

    Or, consider another proponent of homsexuality that can be brought into question. A study done by Dean Hamer, thought to clearly define homosexuality as genitically predominat. As aplogist Nick Pollard explicates best;

    "It was the research of Dean Hamer and his team at the National Cancer Institute, published in 19936, that has led many people to assume that homosexuality is determined genetically - largely due to headlines in the popular press, such as Time magazine's front page feature, 'Born Gay: Science finds a genetic link.
    Hamer studied 40 pairs of homosexual brothers. He observed that they had more homosexuals on the mother's side of their family than on the father's, and therefore investigated the X chromosome (which, in boys, is inherited from the mother and not the father).
    They discovered that 33 of the 40 pairs of brothers shared markers on one part of the X chromosome - known as Xq28. This gave them 'a statistical confidence level of more than 99% that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

    "Once again, there are problems with this research. Neil Risch, a professor of biostatistics at Yale University (who developed the methods used by Hamer) questioned the statistical significance of the study in view of the small sample size. Others have found that they cannot replicate Hamer's results - even with larger sample groups. As George Rice said in the conclusion to his study of more homosexual brothers, 'We found no evidence of linkage of sexual orientation to Xq28.

    But, even if we can take the research at face value, once again this does not mean that the homosexuality was directly caused by the genes. Indeed, the fact that 7 of Hamer's homosexual brothers did not share this gene shows that, in their case at least, their homosexuality could not have been determined by that gene."


    There is also ample reason to believe that sexual orientation can very much be changed. While it is a popular idea that homosexuality is immaleable, one provacitive study defies this notion.
    The very research psychologist, Geico Roberts Fitzer, who helped to eliminate homosexuality from the list of pychological disorders--who admantly opposed the idea that homsexuality could be a disease--endorsed new research that supported change in sexual orientation.

    A new study, which he himself conducted, demonstrated that in 78% of males and 95% of females who had voluntarily undergone therapy, repoted change in sexuality. The study tested 143 men and 57 women. Now 66% of the men and 44% of the women achieved what he denoted as "good heterosexual functioning". This implies that these individuals remained heterosexuals and did not encounter any problems or discontentment in their "new" realtionships.

    The public accused him as advocating a purley Chrisitan propaganda, due to this research. He retorted by explaining that he was actually an Athiest Jew.

    His final written remarks were a such.

    "My conclusion is that the door is open. I came to this study as a skeptic. I believed that a homesexual whether born or made is a homosexual and that to consider that orientation is a matter of choice was wrong. But the fact is, is that if I found even one person who could change, the door is open and a change in sexual orientation is possible." (Geico Roberts Fitzer-professor of psychology at Columbia univ)

    Genetic causation for homosexuality is a type of Darwinian flawed theory that is based more on speculation than any concrete verification. Until clear and defintive evidence is provided, sexual orientation and it's link to genetics is a realtive propostion. Indeed "the door is open", our sexual orientation is prevelantly our choice.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I leave you with this passage by the apostle Paul;

    "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [shadow=gold,left] And such were some of you.[/shadow]But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11)


    I hope this sheds some light on the situation at hand.

    May God bless you

  • This is interesting topic, and the article is very informative piece,thanks gmankbadi! From that we can understand that there is not yet a lucid scientific proof to demonstrate homosexuality is genetic. But even if science is able to establish a relation between homosexuality and genetic make up of an individual in the future it shouldn’t come as a surprise. What we need to understand, I think, is when an attribute is genetic it does not necessarily mean that is the dead end. One can do so many things to avert it if s/he happened to be in that situation; it is just that s/he needs more extra effort relative to those who do not have the disposition. It is like Iqbal beautifully put it as ..... “Homosexuality is simply a Cross that a homosexual must bear. A homosexual is expected to live a celibate life, refusing his or her temptations.”

    Another thing that is worth mentioning here is that we do not need to take things for granted whenever one claims something unless it is from a credible and trustworthy source.

    Please pray for me? and GBU!
  • To this date there is no universal consensus in the scientific community, that homosexuality is genetic, at least not I am aware of.

    As you said we were first created in the image and likeness of God, who is perfect. But after Adam and Eve ate the tree in the Garden of Eden which they were not suppose to, our nature became corrupted; thus possibly the human nature commenced to originate that kind of disposition.

    But then again after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ we got the potential to be like our original nature, which is, becoming children of God in other words being like His image and likeness.

    It is like: “In John 1:42, "Jesus looked at him, and said, 'So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas'" (which means Peter). You are! You shall be! The actual and the possible! Realism and idealism! What is and what can be! And between the two, the Lord Jesus Christ. His presence is like a mighty bridge spanning the vast chasm between the actual and the potential.” For more read here. Btw that is just what I think and hence could be wrong.

    Please pray for me? and GBU!
  • I just have to say 1 quick thing, if our members didn't say it already, Pope Shenouda III created a book called homosexuality, so if you would want information about it in depth, I recommend you to read this book, you'll probably want to know the advice from someone who keeps us awake, and to preach and our messenger from God!

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent

    Yeah, this is a good book. Sayedna's books are always great. I don't think that this is true, it may be the majority of things, but that doesn't mean that it is completely true. you PICK to be a gay or whatever and I don't think it matters for twins becuase lots of twins aren't and like I said: It may be the majority, but it shouldn't be known as the TRUEST thing.

    love lots,
    CopticChica21
  • As you stated in ur posting, the textbook proclaims that there is a correlation between being gay and human biology. A correlational finding does not prove anything, nor show any cause or effect, meaning that the textbook is saying that there MIGHT be a relationship between being gay and our biology. However, ask any medical professional, or someone who does research in the field of biopsychology or psychiatry/neurology, they will tell you that there is nothing in our brain that dictates anything we do related to sexual orientation or practices. Heres something to think about, the only difference in terms of human biology between a male and female, other than their physical anatomy, is the production and release of hormones, specifically testosterone in males which makes them more aggressive than females. Social practices are learned, meaning that a woman being more delicate than a man in terms of emotions is simply stereotypical and discriminative. When reading about a correlation between two things, my advice to you is that you ask for the data before making a decision for yourself.
  • Genes are the main difference between a female and a male. In the case of a male, their sex gene is XY and in case of a female, their gene is XX. If that where the argument is about, not something in the mind that triggers that then I get where they are coming from. Not everyone is born with an XX or and XY gene. Some are born with XXY (also known as Klinefelter Syndrome) and some are born with other mutant in those genes as well. In the case of XXY gene, it would be a human born male, however he will have some female like apperances, since an X gene was added. With that being said, those people can't really distinguish whether to consider themselves males or females..eventhough their physical apperance might suggest they are males..their biology isn't..If those were to be attracted to males as their sexual orientation...it will make sense then when we consider them gays..don't you think?
  • This is how i think of it; i personaly dont believe in homosexuality. people who think they are need to go to God and ask him to fix them. just like when ur car doesnt start u dotn send it to the junk yard (last resort) u take it to a mechanic. I think homosexuality is a bad excuse and a work of the devil. in my opinion.
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