well, it wouldnt let me in the site (u need to have an account), but i agree with you that its ridiculous. i even think its a sin. our body is the temple of God, who are we to damage it?
I think we have orthodox saints who also inflicted pain on themselves for penitence.. I forget their names.. but they are famous... maybe one is St Shenouda with the cross.
Inflicting pain on oneself as a form of penance is definately not acceptable in Orthodoxy. First, it is a way o denying the Christ's blood was enough for our salvation. "He suffered for us so that he may deliver us." His blood which he shed for us is sufficient for out redemption. Therefore, we do not need to inflict pain upon ourselves. If somone tortures you for your faith in Christ, this is different. In this case, you are witnessing to others through you suffering. However, if you nfict pain on yourself, it is a way of saying I did X and need to be punished. If God has mercy on us and is willing to forgive our sins, we must accept that and thank Him for it daily.
Second, our body is not ours. It is a temple unto the Lord. We are instructed not to mutilate it. It is the same as piercings and tattoos.
As far as saints, who have done somthing similar, the only one I can think of was St. Simeon the Shoemaker. He plucked his eye out because it caused him to sin, taking that verse literally. However, our Church does not believe that this verse is meant to be taken literally. The only reason I can think of as to why this was an exception, is that he was a very simple man and believed that he was faithfully executing God's commands. However, a more learned man like Origen, who also cut off a member of his body, is not a canonized sai nt partly for this reason.
I think they inflict pain on themselves because they believe without speedy punishment they will continue on in their sin ... its not used to justify yourself in Gods sight.. only blood of Christ can justify you.
i go to a catholic school and have learnt about many 'catholic' saints who inflict pain upon themselves. they see it as a form or repentance but in a way, physical repentance. they cut themselves, scratch themselves, flog themselves.
the most sever case i heard fo was st fracnis of asissi. he actuly hammered nails into his hands and feet but not to a cross or anything but just pierced them with nails. apparently to feel the pain that christ wetn through
personally i think it is totally absurd. i mean you call these people saints? i dont think so- thats exactly like commiting suiside or u know when people slit their wrists or sumfin wen their depressed, but i know a lot of ppl.
yea well i think its rubbish and our coptic church certaintly does not approve of this so called penance.
really it's tough and HARD to tell if that is unacceptable , ridicioulos or normal
hey i read in 'bostan al rohban' that a monk who his father lived in monactiscism after his son was born i think was called 'yohanna' and took his son with him then when his son yohanna became older he also became a monk but there used to be problems and arguing becoz he was a beautiful looking so he went and swam in some kind of water they said it was "myah kabreetya" water with dunno wat {need help} for a whole day so his skin nearly melted
There is a story of a Saint in our Coptic church who 'caused pain' for himself for the glory of God.
His name is St. Zacharias from his youth he loved Christ, and dedicated his life to him. He went to the monastary at a young age and became a monk. A great/not great (depending on how you see it) thing about this saint was that he was very handsome. People kept saying 'how could someone who looks this good be a monk, what a waste', and stuff like that. He was worried that he might be a stumbling block to other monks (perhaps envy or somthing), and he was worried about vain glory of the world. So he decided to jump in a really salt lake and stayted there for several hours. This discoloured his body and changed his appearance and he looked like a leper. He lived a virtus life and depareted in peace.
Here is an example of someone who inflicted pain on themselves. (i assume staying in salty water for several hours isnt too comfortable)
He is considered a saint and did it for good reasons.
Our reasoning for this is much different from the reasoning of Saints, who are at a much higher level than us... So we shouldn't take what they do literally and apply it, some things are only applicable to them, and all what they do is for the Love of God and His Glory....
I pray we can learn from these wonderful people and grow closer to our Lord.
i definitely agree... its like somebody lends you their notebook (only your body is something much, much more precious, its the temple of God), what are you doing ripping its pages out? this is the way i see it...
I understand your views on our body being Christ's temple, and that inflicting cuts/pain is not the way to do things.
However, we must remember that these Saints were at a completely different level, and dont see and reason with things the way we do.
All they hand in mind when doing this is God, His Love, His Glory, and His Salvation.
The way i see it is, those saints hurt their bodies in order not to fall into sin one way or another. This way they are 'fleeing from satan' and strengthening their salvation. If they were not to do that, they would fall into temptation and risk loosing eternal life. What is more important, the eternal life with Christ, or simply keeping the physical body from pain, however the spiritual side tortured?
Thats just my 0.5 cents, no need to agree, but that's the way I see it :)
I myself am depressed to some degree..(maybe only when im socailly anxious which is alot of the time I think) other times I look very happy.
I know a depressed girl online who cuts herself but she seems like a sweety to me... and I think she knows God personally and has alot of bible knowledge (God users her depression overall to strengthen her faith I think), but she needs our prayers.. maybe she already stopped it but I dont know.
hello all, so looking through this thread and reading over some of the posts i thought i would share what has been taught to me about this subject. Saints who inflict pain on themselves, well i dont know where to start i dont know much about Saint Rose but i know that a saint should not inflict pain upon themselves for a number of reasons number one We do need to share in Christ's pain for us but not if we inflict it upon ourselves as we are bound to suffer it other ways (Christ even told us we would have to in the scripture) such as persecution like the martyrs in egypt, fasting when your at school and everyone around you is eating, going to church saturday night when all your friends are out partying. This is all being crucified with christ not peircing your self. St. Zakarias who changed his skin color was being humble he just made his skin a different color so he wouldnt look beautiful he didnt inflict physical pain upon himself. As for Saints trying to flee temptation through this it is still wrong because it is like cheating. Origen A church father castrated himself and was condemned for doing so because it was like cheating taking the easy way out instead of fighting sin. St.Simon the shoemaker (Samaan el Karaz) intrepreted this verse wrong and was also deemed wrong. As for St.Francis Of Assisi he didnt drive nails into his hands but claimed he received his wounds through stigmata (which is another story in itself).
lots of saints in our church have done things similar to what she did
one monk, i cant remember who was complemented on being beautiful so he went and stayed in a salt water lake for 6 hours until his skin became brown and leathery.
its absolute nonsence. who gives you right to inflict pain upon your body. you dont own your body..the lord does. dont u remember that verse where it says that your body is the temple of the lord
but thats different...she was a nun and the king wanted 2 marry her but she gave her life to jesus so she plucked out her eyes and gave them 2 him on a platter.
Comments
would like to hear more opinions about this...
Second, our body is not ours. It is a temple unto the Lord. We are instructed not to mutilate it. It is the same as piercings and tattoos.
As far as saints, who have done somthing similar, the only one I can think of was St. Simeon the Shoemaker. He plucked his eye out because it caused him to sin, taking that verse literally. However, our Church does not believe that this verse is meant to be taken literally. The only reason I can think of as to why this was an exception, is that he was a very simple man and believed that he was faithfully executing God's commands. However, a more learned man like Origen, who also cut off a member of his body, is not a canonized sai nt partly for this reason.
the most sever case i heard fo was st fracnis of asissi. he actuly hammered nails into his hands and feet but not to a cross or anything but just pierced them with nails. apparently to feel the pain that christ wetn through
personally i think it is totally absurd. i mean you call these people saints? i dont think so- thats exactly like commiting suiside or u know when people slit their wrists or sumfin wen their depressed, but i know a lot of ppl.
yea well i think its rubbish and our coptic church certaintly does not approve of this so called penance.
really it's tough and HARD to tell if that is unacceptable , ridicioulos or normal
hey i read in 'bostan al rohban' that a monk who his father lived in monactiscism after his son was born i think was called 'yohanna' and took his son with him then when his son yohanna became older he also became a monk but there used to be problems and arguing becoz he was a beautiful looking so he went and swam in some kind of water they said it was "myah kabreetya" water with dunno wat {need help} for a whole day so his skin nearly melted
But, the bible states that 'If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, for it is better to enter the kingdom of heaven with one eye...'
Perhaps she was inflicting this pain as a means to keep her from doing certain sins?
Just a possibility.
There is a story of a Saint in our Coptic church who 'caused pain' for himself for the glory of God.
His name is St. Zacharias from his youth he loved Christ, and dedicated his life to him. He went to the monastary at a young age and became a monk.
A great/not great (depending on how you see it) thing about this saint was that he was very handsome. People kept saying 'how could someone who looks this good be a monk, what a waste', and stuff like that. He was worried that he might be a stumbling block to other monks (perhaps envy or somthing), and he was worried about vain glory of the world. So he decided to jump in a really salt lake and stayted there for several hours. This discoloured his body and changed his appearance and he looked like a leper.
He lived a virtus life and depareted in peace.
You can learn more: http://copticchurch.net/synaxarium/2_13.html#1
Here is an example of someone who inflicted pain on themselves. (i assume staying in salty water for several hours isnt too comfortable)
He is considered a saint and did it for good reasons.
Our reasoning for this is much different from the reasoning of Saints, who are at a much higher level than us...
So we shouldn't take what they do literally and apply it, some things are only applicable to them, and all what they do is for the Love of God and His Glory....
I pray we can learn from these wonderful people and grow closer to our Lord.
Take Care & God bless
I understand your views on our body being Christ's temple, and that inflicting cuts/pain is not the way to do things.
However, we must remember that these Saints were at a completely different level, and dont see and reason with things the way we do.
All they hand in mind when doing this is God, His Love, His Glory, and His Salvation.
The way i see it is, those saints hurt their bodies in order not to fall into sin one way or another. This way they are 'fleeing from satan' and strengthening their salvation.
If they were not to do that, they would fall into temptation and risk loosing eternal life.
What is more important, the eternal life with Christ, or simply keeping the physical body from pain, however the spiritual side tortured?
Thats just my 0.5 cents, no need to agree, but that's the way I see it :)
Take care & God bless
no that was definitely wrong...
but how does harming your body keep the devil away?
n like marmar said, none of our saints have cut/harmed themselves
I know a depressed girl online who cuts herself but she seems like a sweety to me... and I think she knows God personally and has alot of bible knowledge (God users her depression overall to strengthen her faith I think), but she needs our prayers.. maybe she already stopped it but I dont know.
so looking through this thread and reading over some of the posts i thought i would share what has been taught to me about this subject. Saints who inflict pain on themselves, well i dont know where to start i dont know much about Saint Rose but i know that a saint should not inflict pain upon themselves for a number of reasons
number one We do need to share in Christ's pain for us but not if we inflict it upon ourselves as we are bound to suffer it other ways (Christ even told us we would have to in the scripture) such as persecution like the martyrs in egypt, fasting when your at school and everyone around you is eating, going to church saturday night when all your friends are out partying. This is all being crucified with christ not peircing your self. St. Zakarias who changed his skin color was being humble he just made his skin a different color so he wouldnt look beautiful he didnt inflict physical pain upon himself. As for Saints trying to flee temptation through this it is still wrong because it is like cheating. Origen A church father castrated himself and was condemned for doing so because it was like cheating taking the easy way out instead of fighting sin. St.Simon the shoemaker (Samaan el Karaz) intrepreted this verse wrong and was also deemed wrong. As for St.Francis Of Assisi he didnt drive nails into his hands but claimed he received his wounds through stigmata (which is another story in itself).
aghape,
chris
it reminds me of humbleness and otha things!
This is exactly why tattoos and suicides are against Christianity
one monk, i cant remember who was complemented on being beautiful so he went and stayed in a salt water lake for 6 hours until his skin became brown and leathery.
i still stand where i am, that monk didnt do it for the sake of pain, but so that nobody said he looked nice...
or hurting yourselves phisically...
or doing something annoying to some1 and you know that u will be hurt by them...
well ....
you know arius...
he casterated himself....
you know what the church done...
BANNED him from comming to the church....
that should tell you something about hurting yorself...
and the virgin St Mary gave her back her eyes I think..
maybe all that is what happend...
but thats different...she was a nun and the king wanted 2 marry her but she gave her life to jesus so she plucked out her eyes and gave them 2 him on a platter.
because she is a nun?