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Jersuslim

Unknown
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
So what is the story with Jersuslim?

Are we allowed to go for a visit and see the most holiest of all place? or are we banned? and if so, why?

Can someone expand and explain?

Comments

  • Unknown
    yes we are allowed to visit Jerusalem because my uncle who is the priest went to visit there and it was great to see the pictures
  • Christ4LifeChrist4Life
    why wouldn't we be allowed. that fact that christ was cruxified there only makes it more holy, more sacred, for it is the place where Christ's blood was shed.
  • SafaaSafaa
    Hello Deano,
    I am sure that H.H. Pope Shenouda III asked the Coptic Christian Not to visit Jerusalem, as long as the problem of Palestinian state is not resolved yet.

    As a matter of fact, yesterday H.H. in his weekly meeting, someone asked him about that and he was firmly in his answer: No, No.
    If you know Arabic, I can send you the recording of his yesterday meeting

  • SafaaSafaa
    Hello MarMar91,

    You know one of the title of our Pope is the bishop of Jerusalem, beside Patriarch of Alexandria and the see of St. Marc

    So Jerusalem is under the Pope’s jurisdiction, and we have a Bishop there, I think Anba Abram, if I am not mistaken. There are Copts there too and there must be churches and priests.

    It is like there is no diplomatic relation, but the affair of the Coptic Church in Jerusalem must be looked after.
    This is my point of view!!1
  • mazzamazza
    abouna bishoy kamel visited jerusalem
    i dotn think visiting it is bad- thats where our lord lived and died
    i soooooo wana go there
  • Unknown
    I am not sure but I think the place is off limits to us which is a great shame as I want to go. There is a certain attraction and magnatism that is attracting me to the place. I have heard from some people though that we are not permitted to visit. I have no idea why? or even if the off limits is true?

    Can I also ask "Safaa" to send me the pope's recording?
  • Marianne87Marianne87
    The pope does forbid the Copts from going for political reasons...he doesn't want us to be appearing that we are somehow with peace with Israel that's why we can go in and out without harm...he did say that when there is peace then all of us can go...coptics and muslims...I guess he doesn't want to make it as a divided part like coptics can go and muslim not...he want to make it as a world peace issue...if Egypt isn't in peace with isreal...than we can't justify us going there even if it's just for religion purpose.
    I don't know if u guys heard of watani newspaper...it's a coptic newspaper published in Egypt...and they use to have there some people giving an apology to the pope for their visit to Jeuraslem as if that can justify them going against the pope's words.
    So yeah u can go if u want to be disobedient to the Pope...which i see wrong myself...because our pope knows excatly what he is doing and why he choose certain things for us...he is a wise man in everything...

    we cud be ex-commmunicated if we do

    I don't think we can reach to the excommnuication part...I might be mistaken...but an apology to the pope will do it I guess...still u really shouldn't be disobdient
  • SafaaSafaa
    Deano,
    This is the link to H.H. weakly Q & A ( July 13, 2005 ),

    http://www.copticpope.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=NewDownloadsDate&selectdate=1121268514

    If you are a Copt, it is better not to disobey the Pope, as he always says: “On the son of obedience blessing will abide.”

    H.H. was visiting Jordan a month or so ago and he did not cross the border to visit the Holy land.
  • Unknown
    The last thing I want to do is be disobediant or annoy anybody. I certainly do not wish to be an outcast from my church.

    I would like to go but I just do not know what the situation is and why it is whatever way it is.

    I think I'll have a word with my priest as he might put me straight on the matter - hoping he says YES.

    Thanks for the link Safaa
  • Unknown
    In my church the adults like me because i'm polite, I think that is a great experience to appreciate and be polite to your elders for sure
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Deano link=board=4;threadid=2090;start=0#msg32496 date=1121448388]
    The last thing I want to do is be disobediant or annoy anybody. I certainly do not wish to be an outcast from my church.

    I would like to go but I just do not know what the situation is and why it is whatever way it is.

    I think I'll have a word with my priest as he might put me straight on the matter - hoping he says YES.



    Deano covered that and I just wanted to show how you can always be polite and respect your elders and jerusalem is basicly pope shenouda's city so if pope shenouda says your not allowed to visit than you can't
  • Christ4LifeChrist4Life
    i agree, your priest cant say you can go if His Holiness himself said you cant...
  • matt88matt88
    hmm this is certainly a very interesting topic! I would think that the only reason our pope says we cant go to jerusalem would purely be relating to the political side of it i.e. we shouldnt visit the enemy terroritory etc. However I personally would not stop myself from visiting jerusalem just because of that. For starters Jerusalem itself is a disputed terrirtory between palestinians and israelis therefore it is not strictly israel (even if they are controlling it through military force...) also i think it also seems to be a 'cutting your nose despite your face' reasoning, i mean you deprive yourself of a very spiritual experience just for politics. so at the end of the day. no matter what coptic leaders say and how much i hate the israeli government, i'd always jump at the chance to go to jerusalem and other holy places in israel :)
  • SafaaSafaa
    matt88,

    i mean you deprive yourself of a very spiritual experience just for politics. so at the end of the day. no matter what coptic leaders say and how much i hate the israeli government, i'd always jump at the chance to go to jerusalem and other holy places in israel


    What spiritual experience will you gain by visiting earthly Jerusalem?
    Did you know that the Holy Bible teach us that “ For we walk by faith, not by sight.” 2 Cor. 5:7
    Didn’t you know by going to your inner room, which is your spiritual heart, when you pray you already have experienced Heavenly Jerusalem.

    “For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” Heb. 11:10

    “But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.” Heb 11:16

    “Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
    But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” Gal. 4:25-26

    We as Christian, should always look Up to Heavenly Jerusalem, our future home.

    If Our Pope said that we should not go, then we should not, for on the son/daughter of obedience, the blessing abide
  • matt88matt88
    hi Safaa i understand what you are saying, but i dont agree with it... for example, every time i go to egypt i always go to the monastery of st mina and st kyrillos. and every time i go i feel it as a very spiritual experience! i mean it's a holy place, as is jerusalem, there is a lot to gain from going!! as for the ban of coptics to go, well i think it is clear that they are purely political reasons, as such i would not stop myself from visiting! i mean for starters, our pope is not as holy as pope kyrillos (no one get offended, but it is a fact) and so by going i wouldnt see myself as being disobedient to the church... of course if baba kyrillos had put this firm ban in place well then i wouldnt go! i mean we will all follow different instructions from different people and i guess that's just how it is... Salaam to all!
  • Marianne87Marianne87

    our pope is not as holy as pope kyrillos (no one get offended, but it is a fact) and so by going i wouldnt see myself as being disobedient to the church

    Fact...are u kidding me? where do u get away saying who is holy and who is not....now u know the hidden too...and u declare ur pope the Head of the church as not holy...

    yes u would be going against the church...when u go against the head of the church that was apponited by GOD and choosen by the Holy Spirit then ya u are going agianst it
  • matt88matt88
    firstly i did make a point to say no one get offended! secondly, just to make this point, i have nothing at all agains our pope! he does his job very well! all i was saying was that in my personal opinion he is not as much of a holy person at all like st kyrillos - for example, it is unlikely that he will ever be made into a saint (with complete respect to him!) again please no one get offended, but these are just my personal opinions. salaam!
  • kiropidiakonoskiropidiakonos
    matt88, ur wayyy of track ya habibi lol, what u mean the pope is not holy?? let me tell u a story...one time in his HH Pope Shenouda's regular wednesday meetings, at the end people are used to sending him questions and comments and stuff...so somebody sent him a piece of paper and he wrote..."why dont u do miracles like the saints and the previous pope, pope kirolos??" lol HH looked at it and smiled :) and then he looked at the congregation and said.."the man in the green shirt, in the 7th row, does this answer your question??" he knew who wrote the paper, out of how many thousand peopel in the cathedral ;D...and who are we to judge the "POPE" chosen by god himself..so if he wasnt holy enough, they why did they choose him to be the pope...and something else these miracles and stuff that the saints and popes did nobody knew about them till after they passed away...so insteady of talkin about this we should pray about it and pray that god may give HH a long peaceful life without any troubles and to guide all of us...pray for me

    kiro
  • Eh Ya BotrosEh Ya Botros
    excellent response Kiro....Pope Shenouda is a VERY Holy man...Matt im sorry but u got NO idea how Holy Pope Shenouda is or anyone else...wat do u mean its your opinion? How is it a matter of opinion? Do Angels wisper in ur ear who is Holy and who isnt? God Himself chose Pope Shenouda to be the Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church dont u credit that. If u did u would respect watever His Holyness says regarding any issue. Do u truly believe u know better than the Pope?

    I guess u havent heard much about Pope Shenouda....like Kiro sed u will hear amazing things after the Pope passes away...also miracles doesnt equal Holiness...God gives every1 different gifts...

    Please pray for ur brother in Christ

    Peter
  • matt88matt88
    ok kiro and peter i repect the fact very much that you are defending our holy father.
    I do agree that his holiness is a very holy man. Whether he can ir cant do miracles i dont know (and im not sure whether he can or cant is a measure of holiness...)
    I feel that as a modern comparison, baba kyrillos is one of the giants of the church (yarni one of the greatest of the greatest saints!) and so the only point i was carrying across was that in my opinion His Holiness Pope Shenouda was not the same.. I again ask people not to be offended, though i do understand that their are many people at Tasbeha who are very loyal to our church and extremely attached to our pope... i do respect you for this, and i do respect your opinions in relations to church and other matters
  • kiropidiakonoskiropidiakonos
    matt, we cant judge who is better and who had a better life and so on...i agree with u people kirolos was a great saint and he helped me alot trust me...but what do u kno about pope shenouda? do u kno anything about him that makes u say this, that he was better or whatever?? i highly doubt that...nobody knows so much about the pope except peopel who are really close to him and bishops...one of the virtues that a pope must have is being wise...im pretty sure HH knos exactly what hes doin...pray for him and for our church that god may protect it and protect him...pray for me

    kiro
  • mazzamazza
    wise words kiropidiakonos
  • Unknown
    you guys excellent response to kiro and eh ya botros and i liked that story but did it have the name of the guy on there just wondering!
  • SafaaSafaa
    matt88,

    I advise you as a friend, not to go to Jerusalem but to Egypt, and ask H.H. Pope Shenouda III to pray for you. Did you know that you can not have The Holy Mystery of Eucharist, unless you are absolved from his H.H.

    Read the Absolution of the Ministers that the priest pray it while the whole church are kneeling, saying “................. And from the mouth of our honoured father, the high priest Abba Pope Shenouda III, and from the mouth of my abject self. “

    ” Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
    For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.” 1 Sam. 15 22-23
  • Unknown
    I have been to the church that st. mary and joseph and jesus hid in from the king of jerusalem because he wanted to kill all the firstborns and they closed the place they hid in it was so dark I could hardly see anything, we were on a 2-story boat to take the nile river trip and so my brother took a picture before we got there and we went to walgreens (for you who don't know it's a store) and the picture came out that a blaze of light shined in the picture but the trip was amazing! I thank the Lord for having a great chance to let me see the church I think it's called the Golden Church
  • kiropidiakonoskiropidiakonos
    lol no copticservant i dont think the pope metioned any names...
    and also, great response safaa...pope shenouda himself said this in arabic .. "la 7el wala baraka" to whoever goes...unless ur job requires u to go there, cause i kno some people working with the FBI that they have to go and translate some arabic into english every once in a while...why would u go there anyways??? unless u wanna get bombed lol...jk..pope shenouda will not absolve anybody to go there no matter what...like safaa said, go to egypt instead, its so much better and such a blessing, lots of monestaries and churches, beautiful place...GBU matt n pray for us...

    kiro
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Coptic Servent link=board=4;threadid=2090;start=0#msg32386 date=1121375506]
    yes we are allowed to visit Jerusalem because my uncle who is the priest went to visit there and it was great to see the pictures



    Priests can go anytime I think but I also think they need to get permission from the Pope before the go!
  • kiropidiakonoskiropidiakonos
    ya only clergy could go...and we have a coptic orthodox bishop in jerusalem, but anybody else cant go
  • Unknown
    [quote author=kiropidiakonos link=board=4;threadid=2090;start=30#msg33474 date=1122333543]
    ya only clergy could go...and we have a coptic orthodox bishop in jerusalem, but anybody else cant go


    TRUE...thanks for sharing that
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