Australian Orthodox????

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
hey copts,
i know im not a usual poster in these forums but i would really like to get some outside input in this matter.
Here in australia there are talks of making an Australian Orthodox church. In this church there are plans that it will be deigned to attract australians by changin the hymns and tunes of the church in order to attract the western ear. As is my understanding, the coptic church in africa is titled "african coptic orthodox church". they also use there own langauge and there own tunes which i agree with as they have a different langauge to arabic coptic or english. But what im confused about is that they want to change the tunes of the australian orthodox church????even though the whole mass is said in english on our normal sunday masses???
they other major problem is that if intermarrige between coptic orthodox and australian oprthodox occurs this will cause major problems in the children not knowing which mass to go to. so in a sense we run a major risk of losing our coptic heritage and the coptic langauge all toghther!!! Also there title of the church does not have the word coptic in it which means that they are not acknowledgeing that the coptic church is the mother church.
this is the. issue i would like to see your perpestives and opinions and wither you agree or disagree.
thanx ppl
pray for me


  • It seems to me right now not sure... that if God wants to preserve our coptic heritage nothing on earth or below earth can stop that from happening.
    I thought there was no need for this church since we have mostly english masses on sundays but that does not eliminate the problem that westerners are probably not going to be very comfortable in the church as in a protestant church even if they believe all our doctrines.. simply because alot of egyptians not all are not as welcoming and wont have a desire to socialise with them.
    I think its a great idea kinda only at the moment until I hear or read or see something that makes me change my opinion because more aussies will then be able to partake of Holy Communion which is very important in becoming more Christ like.
  • Like this will allow more orthodox to be involved in Evangelising Jesus Christ in our country... which we really need I think (at the moment again).
  • yea wel i live in australia an on sunday our priest said exactly the same thing.
    this like totally shocked me
    why would u want 2 give up on our religious heritage. coptic language is like i think the best ever. if they dont like it, let them leave the church but not start their own church.

    so if this is hapenin now, wats gona happen in the future?? this is obsurd like sorry im jus so upset that people can take it this far

    they should b proud of their heirtage. i go 2 a catholic scool and everytime we have a catholic mass, im like thank god im coptic. i truly believe we have the BEST mass. like have u bin 2 any other mass where they sing throught it and like the congrgation is so involved???
    i think that they should like jus grow up an be aware of what they are actually doing to our heritage.

    our fathers, our fellow copts and saints were persecuted 2 keep our coptic faith strong and some people come along and they want 2 destroy it cus they dont like the mass being in coptic- i mean get real
    sorry if im soundin harsh

    plz 4give me
    but i hope u understand were im cumin from
  • While I am a fanatic orthodox (in most cases) I am willing to be open minded in this case.

    I live in the US and I recently got a copy of the Fiji Church coir CD and it was GREAT. I LOVE IT. They embraced our hertiage, our language and our tunes. THAT IS AWSOME.

    However, I believe that the Orthodox faith is more importnat than the mere language we use to pray in. The saints died for the orthodox faith, beliefs and traditions not the language or the tune. While both Language and Tune are an intergral part of our heritage they are not the reason we believe.

    Saint Mark embraced the orginal egyptian tunes and language for the coptic church. Had he been stubborn in saying (well, the offical language is Greek or Roman, Jesus Spoke Aramiac and hebrew. So you have to all learn MY LANGUAGE and TUNES to be christians) I can just imagine if he said that, what would have happend?

    I am not saying Change everything or even change anything. But if they have tunes that are appropriate that they want to use to praise God, then why not? If they have their own way of expressing thier thanks to God, then why stop them? but let the two churches go side by side. Don't change anything in the Faith, Beliefs, Traditions, etc.... Don't shrink down the liturgy to 20 min and say that's a liturgy. But don't stand in the way of faith and the true faith because of ethnic (non religous) traditions.

    I hope I am not confusing anybody. Just voicing my opinion.
  • But thats exatly whats happening. they want to change the mass the tunes everything??? and they dont even recognise that they are part of coptic orthodox even though they will follow the same dogmas and the like...... they dont even have the title Coptic Australian Orthodox. the african church does though why should they be any different. the coming generation might rememebr a little bit of coptic but then wahts next after that??? our kids kids will all want to go to the austyralian orthodox because the coptic will eventually be born out of existence in australia i think it shocking and appauling idea.
    i have to agree with mazza with this one she hit the nail on the head so to speak.
    keep em coming guys i like you input
  • 19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. 20It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to the LORD because of oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and deliver them. 21And the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day and worship with sacrifice and offering, and they will make vows to the LORD and perform them. 22And the LORD will strike Egypt, striking and healing, and they will return to the LORD, and he will listen to their pleas for mercy and heal them. - Isaiah 19:19-22.

    I'm pretty sure that we, the Coptic Orthodox Church, are the only specific church that has a prophecy written about them in the Bible. Besides the Coptic language is beautiful. I heard that they put a cup of water next to a bunch of deacons saying tasbeha for a test, and when they finished, the scientists examined the water and it looked like the molecules were better alligned or something like that.

    Anyway, we are Orthodox, we rareley change. It's alright if those people want to say some parts of the Holy Liturgy in English but to change the whole thing, even the hymns is going a bit too far. Sorry if I sound too harsh, taking exams right now so I'm a little on edge, p.s. Why would you want to change it?
  • hi everyone:

    Just letting you know that HG Bishop Danial rejected the Idea confirming that our Coptic church must not change or give away its traditions.

    In Christ

  • thank god for that
  • BTW......its great to see alot of females loving coptic and the tunes and such. Mostly its just deacons who enoy it..
    good on you keep it up
    try to teach other young ladies as well it would really be good
  • y wouldnt we love it - its the best ;)
  • [quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=0#msg28481 date=1118825343]
    good on you

    that was an Australianism if there ever was one.......

    I don't agree with the part about changing the tunes because some of us Westerners actually LIKE Oriental scales/tones better than Occidental scales/tones (hence I'm a big Ravi Shankar fan).....Western scales/tones can seem so....well, Western.
  • [quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=0#msg28482 date=1118827509]
    y wouldnt we love it - its the best ;)

    thats good they rejected it abouna was saying they also made a site bout it lol they r really into it lol how wird i think its stupid no affense

    lol amen towat mazza sed we r humans as well and we love anything churchy lol

    GB ALL
  • hello all,
    the australian orthodox church well this is a tough subject i think it is ok because whether we change the tunes or not the theology is all the same i think by saying well they have to be called the Coptic Australian Orthodox we are puttting a dominance over their church i dont really see anything wrong with it if they stay with the Oriental Orthodox Doctrine, Dogmas, Rites and Theology i think they can be considered as another Oriental Orthodox church just like the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox and the Tawahedo Orthodox Church. If intermarriage is to happen wouldnt it be better between two OO churches than between a copt and a protestant or a copt and a catholic because the children will have to choose a doctrine. If our children do not grow up in the coptic orthodox church and decide to choose the australian orthodox i think that is our fault because if we wish for them to grow up in our church we should root them in our church and if we do so it doesnt matter what language is spoken around them they will continue with their heritage which is why i think there would be nothing wrong with an australian orthodox church there is a british orthodox church

  • yar actually i herd of that to and they are oriental like us i think thats awesome :)

    GB ALL
  • The african orthodox have coptic in ther title??????? it doesnt mean were imposing naything on anybody
    its just recognisine that they are still part of coptic orthodox church. And there are pleanty of coptic egyptains in australia so y would they wanna marry protestants??? Its not gonna be either protestant or Australian orhodox. there not the only choices we will still be a danger to our church if after 2 or 3 generations no one wants to go to the coptic orthodox church. it wil be devestating...
    I am no trying to say that im not australian or trying to deny my australianism(u_stole_my_name) or hate australians or there culture im just trying to preserve OUR religion and culture which have been around for nearly 2000 years
    thanx ppl :) :) :)
  • yar actually i herd of that to and they are oriental like us i think thats awesome

    To be more specific, they are "cannonically part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria".
  • WOW!! I thought the Eriterian and Ethiopian (Tewahedo)church in Africa were the only other members of the Coptic Patriarchate...

    Isn't there one in Kenya? I saw footage of H.H. Pope Shenouda III visiting Kenya (or another country in Africa) and he was blessing the was REALLY cool...

    Sinful Servant
  • madnessssssssssssss thats even better how cool :) :D
    thnx for pointing that out :)

    GB ALL
  • I heard of plans of making an American Orthodox Church, under the Coptic Orthodox Church. Anba Youssef himself said that, if the American convert community becomes large enough, making a new American Orthodox Church with their own tunes set to the same Liturgy founded on the same theology would be something the Coptic Church might pursue.

    There is nothing wrong with this.

    Don't forget. Virtually all Eastern & Oriental Orthodox Churches always have two components:
    - cultural
    - theological

    Only ONE is NECESSARY. That is theology. While different Orthodox Churches have different cultural supplements, they all share one theology.

    I see nothing wrong with an Australian Orthodox Church with their own tunes and their own language, as long as the Liturgical texts and hymns are practically the same and as long as their theology remains intact.

    Coptic is the culture. Orthodox is the theology. Church is the point of it all.
  • i agree with John. St Mark didnt force the egyptians to worship in the hebrew language either when he coverted them to Christianity. As long as the theology is sound and orthodox, it doesnt matter what cultural aspects are used in the church.
    Of course the cultural heritage and the hymnology of the coptic church is superb, and the best in the whole wide world but u cant force others with another culture/language etc to use it too. If they do want to use it, they can join the Coptic Orthodox church. Just my thoughts.
  • But what if you LIKE the Coptic tunes?????

    I don't mind having an American Orthodox Church, as long as it's not american-ized....there's a difference. I don't wanna feel like I'm walking into "free Bible Church" of Wukiwaka, Arkansas.
  • [quote author=MarMar91 link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=15#msg29400 date=1119638788]
    well u have managed to throughly confuse me, but i wuill neve in a million years convert, i am a very conservative person meanign i belive in preserving the coptic tunes and heritage soi am sticking to to that, i was laways told i am a stubborn person, i guess its a little true, but i mean, i wish for one church, One Lord, one church, sure it'll e the samne faith, but is there really a need for a new church...i mean,c'mon....

    totally agree 100%
  • HG Bishop Youssef was asked regarding the issue:

    "The Coptic language is part of our identity and reflects who we are. Historically, our fathers shed their blood for the faith and also for the language. They were killed and their tongues were cut off because they spoke Coptic. Keeping and preserving the Coptic language reflects our faithfulness to our fathers the martyrs and our mother the Church. Usually those who oppose the Coptic language do so because of their lack of knowledge of the language for they missed the opportunity of learning it as they were growing up. Instead of keeping arguing with those who have their mind set against the Coptic language we should educate our people about the importance of our heritage. We should start teaching the Coptic language in our churches especially to the little children and consequently we will not have this problem with the future generation. "

    God Bless.

  • i aggree with jono 1000000000000% that is so true good stuff

    also sumfin i didnt no mayb us guys didnt but it was actually amir hanna that started and asked for that :o i didnt think it wood b him

    GB AlL
  • Ma3lesh.

    God Bless.
  • oops sory o throw it at u lyk tht yar yar im from sydney :) another typical aussie :)
    well just have to c wen he cums bac
    GB ALL
    goD IS GREAT!!
  • great words marmar very good i agree wit u all the way ;)

    GB ALL

  • hey guys,

    ok now all this sounds nice but when it really comes down to it coptic is really just a language like english i mean just because its old and has been preserved doesnt make it special i mean to be honest i dont think if saint mark taught everyone...iono Afrikaan or something and we chanted in that why would we have to preserve it now i love coptic and want my children to know coptic and grow up in the coptic church as i have but honestly i think the only concern i have is a personal one because i want my children to grow up and learn coptic and all that stuff like me but if such a church exists and they are under our patriarchate why wouldnt they join it i mean as humans we always look for a short cut and praising in your native language is easier then learnig a new one

    just my thoughts
  • why do they want to start an austrilaian orthodox anyway. sorry if it was mentioned already.
  • ??? Do you guys listen to yourself???

    There is such a thing like the Australian Orthodox Church already in existence and fully canonical, it's called the British Orthodox Church, notice, it doesn't have "Coptic" in its name. Also the French Coptic Orthodox Church, Pope Shenouda, instituted that one. It is for "all French people engaged in a spiritual quest as well as it addresses the spiritual needs of all French Copts of the second and third generation".

    The two main arguments I hear here is, language and culture. Excuse me, but as it has already been pointed out, but ignored, the Church is something seperate from and independent from any language and any culture. The Church, instead, inculturates into every culture it is in. If that means Egyptian language and culture, fine. If that means Australian language and culture, fine. There is no moral difference between Egyptian and Australian culture. If you are Egyptian you can keep your language and culture wherever you go, that's fine. But do you honestly expect a native Australian to learn your language and your culture just in order to become Orthodox? Apparently, you do, because you say if they don't they had better leave. This is the most UnOrthodox thing I have ever heard, and yet in the next breath you insist that your church is the best one in the world, give me a break. Apparently, you are so insistent to live in the fourth century that you forget about the first, i.e. the one where St. Mark came to Egypt and gave you your church to begin with, in Egypt, in Egyptian language and culture so that you could understand and could come to Christ. And now in the 21st century is has digressed so much that now people are insisting that the Australians can't have what St. Mark gave to the themselves. How ridiculous.

    Fact of the matter: the Coptic language has never been a part of Australian history, insisting that Australians learn it just to become Orthodox is silly. The Coptic tunes are woefully difficult for most western ears to appreciate, much less learn to sing themselves. Not having "Coptic" in the name does not mean that they will be embarrased to acknowledge that they are under the Patriarchate of Alexandria (cf. the British Orthodox Church). People who still want to use Coptic in church and continue their ethnicity in Australia will still have plenty Coptic Orthodox Churches to choose from to do that in (cf. England, British Orthodox Churches and Coptic Orthodox Churches exist together). If 3rd, 4th, 5th generation Copts wish to join the AOC because they are completely Australianized, so be it, that's what happens to immigrants, it's not the 5th generation's fault, its their great-great-great-grandparents fault for immigrating out of Egypt in the first place, at least they can still be Orthodox, which is much more important to the soul than being "coptic". An Australian Orthodox Church would be unnecessary if the COC followed the example of the Russian Orthodox Church, which translates all their hymns into the vernacular of the country they go to immediatly (even the most obscure and difficult ones), still manage to keep the same tune for all the hymns, and in so doing are open to both members of the homeland as well as converts from the new land.

    Enough of the hyperbole, slipperly-slopes, and lack of supporting arguments (btw, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is not a part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, they have their own autonomous Patriarch), and rampant ethnicism and nationalism getting in the way of fulfilling Christ's command of Mark 16:15 (but to give one example of many).

    Before you all crucify me, let me just say that I am a convert to the COC, I study the Coptic language and Coptic history in the university, and my husband, also a convert, is dilligently trying to learn Coptic hymns and the way to sing them in order to become a deacon. Don't tell me about appreciating the Coptic church more, or that I am a lazy bum. I simply see the struggles that many other converts to the COC have and I pray that the AOC will be approved for those converts in Australia who desperately seek the truth but, by fate, simply are not Egyptian.

    For food for thought, please read this:
    Title: Greek Orthodoxy in Australia: Prolonging the Past or a Transnational Light to the World?
    Presenter: Desmond Cahill paper.pdf
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