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Text for Coptic New Year Mo7ayar and Gospel Response

kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
in Hymns Discussion
Hello everyone,

I hope everyone is doing well. I was listening to the following liturgy by HH Pope Tawadros:



and Cantor Ibrahim Ayad and the chorus said a mo7ayar and a gospel response for Coptic New Year that were not recorded in his previous rites recordings. I would like the text for these two hymns, please.

The mo7ayar starts at 56:42
The gospel response starts at 1:33:58


Thank you so much. Greatly appreciated.

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    this sounds like the mohayyar for the Virgin....i don't have the exact text but it exists. 

    and that book looks like Fr Athanasius El-Makari book from the set of the rites. 
  • [Deleted User]
    Hello @kyrollos faheem

    The Mohayyar and The Gospel Response are from the old Manuscripts collected from Tartib Elbayaa
    Cantor Ibrahim Ayad reads from a Book called: "The ritual time between the feasts of the Nayroz and the Cross" or in Arabic "Elzaman Eltaksy bayna 3eday elnayroz w alsalib" for Father Athansios Elmakary (http://athanase.net/)

    Here are the words of both with arabic translation from the book above (includes the Mohayyar and the Gospel Response)

    image

    image

    for the Mohayyar you will find 5 parts: 
    The First is written in the book
    The second part here:
    The third part is unknown unefortuneatley. I have looked for it so long and never found its words.
    The four part here:
    The Five part here: 

    Sorry for long answer
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    Thank you so much to the people who responded. I wanted to thank the person who reaponded before me but they seem to have deleted their account.
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    you are welcome, kyrollos faheem 
    It's me but it was duplicated account so i asked Admin to delete this one and kept the other :)
    feel free to PM me
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    The words for verses 2-5 are taken from the old text of Meghalo. We all know that Apenchois is the mohayyar of Meghalo. In the original mohayar of Meghalo there were 20 verses (in the manuscript before me) that were added if there was time after the 3 verses of Meghalo. (FYI, all 5 verses of Apenchois to Je peniot were not in the original mohayar.) Verse 2 above is verse 2 in the original Meghalo mohayar. Verse 3 above (which MeenaSamy could not find the text) is verse 3 in the original Meghalo mohayar. Verses 4 and 5 above are verses 18 and 20 respectively in the original Meghalo mohayar.

    The text for verse 3 above is
    Ⲟⲩⲥ̀ⲑⲟⲓⲛⲟⲩϥⲓ ⲡⲉ Ⲓⲏⲥⲟⲩⲥ
    ⲁⲙⲱⲓⲛⲓ ⲙⲁⲣⲉⲛⲟⲩⲱϣⲧ ⲙ̀ⲙⲟϥ
    ⲁⲛϣⲁⲛⲁⲣⲉϩ ⲉ̀ⲛⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲗⲏ
    ϣⲁϥⲭⲁ ⲛⲉⲛⲛⲟⲃⲓ ⲛⲁⲛ ⲉ̀ⲃⲟⲗ

    The original mohayar had no Arabic translation. But the text is translated as "Jesus is incense. Come, let us worship him. When we keep his commandments, He forgives us our sins."



  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    @Remnkemi 
    Thank you for the text and for the English translation
    and maybe if you can provide me with the text of 20 verses 
    Here is Arabic translation for the text above (i depended on the Coptic text):
    بخور هو يسوع، تعالوا فلنسجد له، إذا ما حفظنا وصاياه، لكى يغفر لنا خطايانا

    I have a small notice that the meaning is not so consistent!!
    what is the relation between 4 sentences (Stikhons)?
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Where did you find the Arabic text? Was it part of Meghalo in a different manuscript?

    I don't know what you mean by "the meaning is not so consistent". It seems we came to the same meaning in both the English and Arabic translations.

    What do you mean by the 4 sentences? The four lines in this verse or Verses 2-5 in the above Nairouz hymn text?
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    I translated it myself from the coptic text you put

    I mean the words are not harmonic with each other, no clear meaning of what the verse wants to say, what is relationship among this "Jesus is incense. Come, let us worship him. When we keep his commandments, He forgives us our sins."!?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "Jesus is the incense" is to match the preceeding paragraph: "The incense is Mary, the incense is in her womb, which she will borne, to forgive us our sins."

  • katanikhoroskatanikhoros
    The theology of these verses seems questionable.
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    Thanks again for the explanations, guys. I never knew there was a different text to the mo7ayar of Meghalo. Remnkemi, can you pm me with the Coptic text in a word document because I couldn't read it as it was posted? Thank you.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Kyrollos install a Coptic unicode font and you'll be able to read it. My favorite is Antinoou. It can be found here: http://evertype.com/fonts/coptic/
  • baempibaempi
    Hello,

    Does anybody know the text for the annual mohayyar?

    Also, I don't have coptic font. Could someone please type the Jesus is incense verse 3 from above in coptic words using English letters? Or scan an image?

    Thanks
  • baempibaempi
    Ok someone sent me recording of annual one. Does anyone have the text. It's hard to understand the recording. It sounds like he says avnav as first word.

    Also the one above please. I still can't see coptic. Thanks.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Can you send the audio so we can look at it? I'm not sure what you mean by annual mohayyar.
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    @baempi 
    Here is the text for the Annual Mohayyer:
    image

    I need the Complete Verses of the Moahyyer of Meghalo!! as you said 20 Verses..
    If you can't, I need these Verses shown here in red
    image

    Thank You

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Ok. Here you go. The two verses you're looking for are numbers 7 and 20 below. 

    1. Vnau `mpi`cmou pe [email protected] `vnau `mpic`;oinoufi [email protected] `vnau tenhwc `[email protected] pimairwmi `naga;oc. 
    2. Ou`c;oinoufi pe [email protected] ou`c;oinoufi qen [email protected] ou`c;oinoufi acmici `[email protected] saf,a nennobi nan `ebol. 
    3. Ou`c;oinoufi pe [email protected] amwini marenouwst `[email protected] ansanareh `[email protected] saf,a nennobi nan `ebol.
    4. Ou`c;oinoufi souw `[email protected] `ebol qen Maria }par;[email protected] je `a pi`c;oinoufi [email protected] `i af[icarx `ebol `nqy].
    5. }ckuny te ]metme;[email protected] je `pcaji `mp=o=c aftajro `[email protected] ouAarwn piouyb `[email protected] eftale ou`c;oinoufi etcwtp.
    6. }par;enoc [email protected] Viwt aferkocmin `[email protected] afcelcolc `nou`[email protected] `mpefmonogenyc `nsyri.
    7. Au] `mpinau `mMi,[email protected] hisennoufi `nte [email protected] au] `nnidwrea `nte Vnou]@ `eMaria }par;enoc.
    8. Au] `m`pounof `[email protected] picalpictyc `nte [email protected] nem pi=d `nzwoun `[email protected] nem pi=k=d `m`precbuteroc.
    9. Au] `mpinomoc `[email protected] ]metouyb `nte [email protected] au] `mpi`c;oinoufi [email protected] `nte Za,ariac piouyb.
    10. Au] `mpika] `nje [email protected] ]couvia `nte [email protected] au] `m`ptap `[email protected] `n;of e;na;whc `nniourwou.
    11. Au] `mpisousou `[email protected] Pa[oic pouro [email protected] nem Vulopatyr [email protected] nem Apa Mina `nte Nivaiat.
    12. Maren;wou] `w namenra]@ nisyri `nOr;[email protected] `ntentaio `[email protected] piagioc nim.
    13. <ere nak `w [email protected] ,ere niswij `[email protected] ,ere pia;[email protected] piagioc nim.
    14. Au;wou] qen [email protected] nicaq `nte ]Or;[email protected] au;ask `niwt `ejen ]ek`[email protected] peniwt e;ouab Abba nim.
    15. Pi=i=b `[email protected] euws `ebol eujw `[email protected] je axioc axioc [email protected] peniwt e;ouab Abba nim.
    16. Wcautwc ten[ici `[email protected] nem pihumnodoc [email protected] je `n;ok pe piouyb sa `[email protected] kata taxic `mMel,icedek.
    17. I=y=c P=,=c `ncaf nem [email protected] `n;of `n;of pe nem sa `[email protected] qen ouhupoctacic `[email protected] tenouwst `mmoc ten]wou nac.
    18. Ni,eroubim nem [email protected] niaggeloc nem niar,[email protected] nictratia nem niexouci`[email protected] ni`;ronoc nimet=o=c nijom.
    19. Euhwc `erof qen [email protected] `mpi`ehoou nem pi`[email protected] euws `ebol eujw `[email protected] je `,ouab p=o=c ouoh `,ouab.
    20. <ouab p=o=c qen niana `[email protected] `ktaiyout qen niana`;[email protected] `n;ok ou`c;oinoufi [email protected] je ak`i akcw] `mmon.

    You'll also notice that verses #1, 2, 6, 12 are the same in the annual mohayyar. And as I said before verses 2, 3, 18 and 20 are the Nayrouz mohayyar. You'll also notice also that verses #19 and 20 are the Kiahk mohayyar (and the same Kiahk mohayyar used to be said in the Wedding/Crowning ceremony) but in a different order. You'll also notice that many of these verses in this Meghalo mohayyar deal with the patriarch and famous angels and saints and the most of the verses deal with incense (a meditation of Revelations 5:9 "the 24 priests incense which are the prayers of the saints). 

    Wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually sang all 20 verses (and add the 5 of the current Meghalo mohayyar)!!
  • MeenaSamyMeenaSamy
    @Remnkemi 
    Thanks for sharing
    Great Work :)
  • baempibaempi


    Thanks guys.
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    Just as a follow up to Remenkimi posting the whole set of verses, I want to point out that these verses are still sung in their entirety in the Ethiopian Church.  As a reference, see this file: http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/images/kidase1.pdf.  You will find the mohayyar verses on the bottom of page 32 and on page 34.  The Ethiopian version contains 1 - 11 from Remenkimi's list and concludes with the same conclusion as the Kiahk mohayyar verses.  In Remenkimi's list it would be a slightly modified version of 18 (instead of "The Cherubim and the Seraphim..." it's "The Cherubim worship Him and the Seraphim glorify Him saying ..." followed by 20.  The Ethiopians sing these verses in every liturgy (except during the Holy 50 Days when they sing Christos Anesti instead) and they are considered "Annual" by our terminology.  They do not belong to one season so there's not concept of the Advent Mohayyar or the Lent Mohayyar or anything like that.  I suspect it was the same in the original Coptic tradition.  If you consider the mohayyar verses for the seasons we have today, they do not come from this list.  They actually come from the Thursday Psali from the Holy Psalmody.  So somewhere in Coptic history the source of the mohayyar verses changed.

    If you're really into studying "taqs" or history of hymns and maybe what
    rites have faded away from the Coptic Church, I highly recommend
    studying the rites and hymns of the Ethiopian tradition.  They were our
    daughter Church all the way up until the last century and barely had any
    persecution so many of our original practices are still kept in their
    tradition.

    Finally, I want to point out that the tune used by the Ethiopians is much faster than the one we use for these verses.  If we had to say 20 of these every Sunday I think that would easily add an extra half hour, which is probably why they fell out of fashion.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Archdeacon,
    Very good find. I would only caution against saying the rites have faded away from the Coptic Church and we should go to the Ethiopians to see what we lost. Rites, like many other social phenomenon, occur organically in a complex way. There is nothing that says Ethiopian hymnology did not develop both dependently with Coptic rites and independently as an Ethiopian indigenous rite. Yes, the Ethiopian church rites come from the Coptic Church and they may have kept what we  we may have lost. But it is equally (and more plausible) that Coptic rites developed in a different divergent road and organically changed the text of the mohayyar, while the Ethiopian rite developed in a different road the organically changed the tune of the mohayyar. While they two rites have common roots, I would refrain from drawing conclusions about who preserved hymns and who did not. And I would especially refrain from trying to explain why one would lose hymns based on empirical observations of time management.
  • minasafwat
    Remnkemi.
    i already have a manuscript for the first 10 verses..but i wounder from where did you get the rest??( especially from 11 to 17)?
  • minasafwat
    edited August 2015
    there are also many (grammatical) mistakes in the first 10 verses..( which are famous to me)

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    It is from a manuscript owned by the St Shenouda Archimandrite Society in Los Angeles. What do you mean by grammatical mistakes?
  • ophadeceophadece
    nofri rombi emwari
    How on earth can we sing this number of verses or any number in the Coptic church? Copts don't like them full stop
    Oujai khan ebshois
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