Loving a non-christian

edited December 2014 in Personal Issues
I want to start out by saying I cannot talk to my father of confession about this, as I have no true father of confession. And please do not lecture me about how important it is to have one.

I am a woman in my mid twenties who, as the title suggests, has fallen in love with a non-christian. I am Americanized so my views on certain aspects (such as dating) will not mesh with the traditional Egyptian viewpoint of it being completely unacceptable. I started dating a non christian in my second year of graduate school. I knew from the beginning it would not go anywhere due to religion (he is atheist), but proceeded anyway. I proceeded because I do not believe shying away from things just because you do not see a marriage out of it. Statistically, relationships do not even last very long so I saw no harm in it at the time. This person has respected my religion and my physical boundaries from the very beginning-- I made myself very clear early on in the relationship so he could get out if he wanted to. Our feelings were still there and our relationship grew into something very beautiful. We both knew that if we were to last this long, that it would have to end at graduation. We will both be graduating from law school soon and the end is near. 

It has been something that has been VERY hard for me to deal with because I truly feel like this person is my soulmate. I know I have to trust in God's plan, and His will, but this still hurts beyond belief and I am not sure what to do or how to cope. There is absolutely nothing wrong in the relationship other than the very important factor of religion. I am not even sure if writing on this forum will help me. I am a mess.

Comments

  • I know someone very close to me who started a relationship with a Roman Catholic who had no interest in religion, much less the Coptic church. They actually broke up many times because of religion. Fast forward 2 years. They were engaged in the Coptic church last month.

    Graduating law school doesn't have to be the end. From what you wrote, it seems like a high possibility he will convert even if he says he doesn't want to. The way I see it, he looses nothing if he compromises his atheism. You loose eternal life if you compromise your Orthodoxy. Thankfully, our track record for situations like this end up with Orthodox crowning marriages.

    The only way to get out of a mess is to stop, get out of the environment and see this objectively. The solution to every mess is abundantly clear when you can see objectively. Then objective solutions will not hurt (as long as it is guided by the Holy Spirit). If you can't see your solution objectively, then find a spiritual guide who can. If you want this to work, at some point along your journey, you will have to speak to a priest. There can't be any crowning marriage otherwise.

    Here's a really good secret that applies to you...ask St Mary for help.
  • Remnkemi said:

    I know someone very close to me who started a relationship with a Roman Catholic who had no interest in religion, much less the Coptic church. They actually broke up many times because of religion. Fast forward 2 years. They were engaged in the Coptic church last month.

    Graduating law school doesn't have to be the end. From what you wrote, it seems like a high possibility he will convert even if he says he doesn't want to. The way I see it, he looses nothing if he compromises his atheism. You loose eternal life if you compromise your Orthodoxy. Thankfully, our track record for situations like this end up with Orthodox crowning marriages.

    The only way to get out of a mess is to stop, get out of the environment and see this objectively. The solution to every mess is abundantly clear when you can see objectively. Then objective solutions will not hurt (as long as it is guided by the Holy Spirit). If you can't see your solution objectively, then find a spiritual guide who can. If you want this to work, at some point along your journey, you will have to speak to a priest. There can't be any crowning marriage otherwise.

    Here's a really good secret that applies to you...ask St Mary for help.



    There is not a high possibility he will convert. Yes, he may have "nothing to lose," but you cannot force someone to believe in God. Nor would I want to. That is something that stems from a relationship that they must have on their own. Forcibly converting just for a ritual's sake of marriage is not the issue. The issue is living a life, and raising a family with these two conflicting beliefs. If it is done halfheartedly  then that is building a life on unstable foundation and resentment. 

    Thank you for the advice. Pray for me.
  • Dear @justpraybro,
    first of all let me commend you on mustering up your courage to write such an important and sensitive issue in your life on this forum.. that to me proves you live more as Americanized than Egyptian. Egyptians are rubbish to talk about anything of that sort.. hehe.. oops have I offended even myself?
    ok, what I can say is that you had started this kind of thing on the wrong foot. The only reason being something you must be aware of I think, and that is emotions cannot be turned on and off. There is no way known on this globe of someone able to curb their feelings and modify them consciously as they go along, after all emotions are deeply rooted in the subconscious for the most part.. however you are absolutely great and very strong. While it's very common for young people to think they can control their feelings and actions within relationships that may or may not work, with time they drift away and lose control.. you are terrific for having kept the boundaries clear from the outset and also to not let yourself slip at any moment.. indeed it's commendable too on the part of the guy.. BUT, a very big but, as a Christian you should know that this is an extremely tough test you are going through because God may have let the evil one test you with a sweetened pill of a good respectful guy who could eventually lead you away from Christianity.. No No and No. Because you are a strong lady you should be very tough on yourself and act in a manner as though you are breaking off your arm that sinned or cut out your eyes only this time to do it with the much harder aspect of feelings and even more so to cut out a soulmate to use your expression without their support or understanding.. in fact rejecting it.. it's hard but I am a psychiatrist and get the feeling you're capable of doing it.. or as Remenkimi suggested if you see any reason why he should become Christian, I emphatically add, FOR YOU AND BEING CONVINCED IT'S FOR HIS OWN SAKE then why not give it a chance and help him. I must admit I don't see this happening from how you are describing the situation..
    first and foremost, besides or even regardless of what I said pray.. this whole thing is permitted and watched by the One and He knows you and him inside out, so don't stop praying, but your other role is to start reducing contact, overcoming your emotions, and doing some replacement.. I don't know may be joining a choir.. buying Christian carols tapes and memorizing them.. or attending tasbeha.. what I believe you should not be doing in the period of desensitisation is to watch American or Egyptian for that matter romantic movies or comedy ones or any type really that talk about relationships in general..
    I ask you to pray for me and my wife too and we'll pray for each other then..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • Dear Justpraybro,

    I highly recommend you pray and ask God to reveal to you if this is a good decision. 

    Most priests would tell you to avoid this sort of relationship because they're not going to :
    a) baptise anyone for the sake of marriage
    b) allow you to even get married if you don't believe in the sacrament of marriage. 
    c) baptise anyone who doesn't even believe in God.

    If you pursue this relationship to its logical conclusion and you get married - will it be in a Coptic church? We won't baptise anyone if they do not accept Christ or even believe in Him. 

    I think our soulmate is Christ. My soul was made for my beloved. 

    I met an atheist who married a devout Catholic. He ridicules his wife's faith behind her back. He has no respect for anything she believes in. The RC baptised him quickly on the day of the wedding. Its a farce.

    I fail to understand why you pursued this relationship knowing that you'd have these issues? If statistics show that relationships often fail, did you assume that you had a better chance of succeeding?

    Its best to focus on the things that divide you, (i.e. religion). Its the things that divide you, or bother you now that will always be a problem in the future after marriage. 

    He will say that he doesn't have a problem with your religion. But he'd have said that if you were muslim also. So, its not that he's being tolerant - he's indifferent. 
  • Hi,

    I just wanted to say that I am sorry you have to go through this. Unfortunately pain is inevitable. And who know, this may be your only chance for love. (I am also female, similar age)

    To love is to sacrifice. To love God...(I'll let you decide for yourself).

    And yes, there is no one to speak to in the coptic church because to them "computer says no". They don't value emotions...marriage in the church is viewed from the perspective of compatibility and convenience. Romantic love is a second thought.

    I hope you find peace

  • edited December 2014
    mnc_hnn said:

    Hi,

    I just wanted to say that I am sorry you have to go through this. Unfortunately pain is inevitable. And who know, this may be your only chance for love. (I am also female, similar age)

    To love is to sacrifice. To love God...(I'll let you decide for yourself).

    And yes, there is no one to speak to in the coptic church because to them "computer says no". They don't value emotions...marriage in the church is viewed from the perspective of compatibility and convenience. Romantic love is a second thought.

    I hope you find peace

    I agree MNC, i think the clerical authority of the church can be totally heartless.

    Falling in love isn't a bad thing, nor a joke that one should take lightly. But yes, I agree with you, I agree that the COC seems to put romantic love in 2nd place compared to marriages of convenience. 

    But before allowing yourself to fall in love, wouldn't it have been better to have allowed yourself to fall in love with someone who wouldn't cause you this much heartbreak at this point in the relationship?
  • Our relationship with God is a romantic story of love. The church does not put romantic love 2nd to marriage of convenience. The commandment of the husband is to love his wife like Christ loved the church. That is true love and that is the only existing absolute love. Any love other than that IS NOT love.  
  • Our relationship with God is a romantic story of love. The church does not put romantic love 2nd to marriage of convenience. The commandment of the husband is to love his wife like Christ loved the church. That is true love and that is the only existing absolute love. Any love other than that IS NOT love.  

    I disagree there ShareTheLord,

    If I fall in love with a woman who is say muslim, and insists that to marry her, I renounce my faith - is that love? That I forsake Christ for her love? 

    I doubt it.
  • edited December 2014
    One must differentiate between infatuation and love.

    Love is holy. It is not rooted from within me. God is love. 

    For the specific example of loving a muslim. If you marry outside the christian church, then you do renounce your faith. At that point, you are choosing a person over God. You are not choosing love because essentially God is love and marriage is union with God. Unless you are united with God and your spouse in the sacrament of marriage, then you have not married the person but have decided to unify yourself to a person without God. Now say you marry within the sacraments of the church, then there is no problem - you may have struggles to maintain difference of upbringings, but God's grace strengthens you to love your spouse and through perseverance you truly learn the true meaning of love.
  • edited December 2014
    Hi,
    I`m seeing that it`s fashionable these days to deride the clergy of the church and fall back on the bandwagon of ``unsympathetic Coptic clergy`` without giving a second thought to what`s being said. 
    We need to be careful of what we say on here. And just because we`ve heard these things on other forums and experiences from others it doesn`t follow that the majority of clergy are this way. We need to understand the responsibility of the priests` divine office and the culpubility that we throw on them often times isn`t warrented but drawn from images and caractures that we`ve ``heard`` in convos and forums. 
    We all know how stories change. Is it more likely that people want to follow their own hearts misguided or not or is just that the priest is trying his very best to preserve the salvation of his son or daughter by giving them the most honest and sincere advice possible. On a side note, we have at least 30 mutli-racial couples in our church (It`s a big church) who began with one party as being non-orthodox.

    Are we all insulting and bashing for the sake of sounding enlightened. I hope not. That verse which states that man shall be held accountable for every word he says applies here on these forums as well. And those words can`t be taken back. Many hundreds and even thousands of youth and adults will read your words in the future and could stumble. Instead offering the negatives lets lead this young woman to a better understanding of what a shepherd is. Not someone who dictates but instructs. Someone who cares for the souls of all those entrusted to him.
    Granted if there are issues with clergy they should be resolved and sometimes talked about if need be.But to warn her against all Coptic clergy as if they`re a disease to be dismissed is destruction and you`ll be held culpable for those words.
    It`s time we use wisdom and discretion when talking to people on these forums especially ones who are sincerely asking. Why push them away further. Is highlighting the bad clergy going to be any benefit to her, or would it be better to present her with a good example of a shepherd who can aid in her choice.
    Forgive me.

  • Dear @Tobit,
    I completely agree with you and your position on this.. you helped to remind me personally of the need to be extra careful until the day of my judgment.. however let's not forget that some members wrote from experience and these kind of forums help people vent and get corrected and guided by other people like yourself even. So thank you once again for your position and don't bash me or anybody else because I have said what I said.. I know you didn't mean to do that at all but it's just the tone of your message..
    thanks once again
    oujai khan ebshois
  • edited December 2014

    Hi, ophadece

    Forgive my message if it offended you. However, I`m not here to tell people what they want to hear but what they need to hear. As I would hope for people to do the same for me. So again forgive me. It’s just that honesty and truth seems to go missing in this layered world of ours where we try to present ourselves as different from who we ought to be, especially on forums.

    I didn`t bash anyone. I hope this isn`t how you interpreted my post.  If anything, my post was about the new culture of clergy bashing and why it should stop. I keep getting advised by people to not post on this forum but sometimes these forums end up being a domino or ripple that just keep getting wider in criticism of church and priests and no one manages to put a stop to it. No one sits back and interjects and perhaps thinks that the demons are playing us like children. If i can tell you the amount of people who read posts on this forum that had their faith shaken or were offended spiritually I`d have to send you a newsletter..

     I`m not trying to be witty or smart. I`m trying to say it as it is. Not everything that comes to our minds and hearts should be said. Do clergy sometimes make bad decisions? Yes. Do we sometimes need to discuss things publicly? Yes. But this needs caution and discernment. The entire world, whether secular, Islamic, etc is already persecuting us. Do we need to persecute ourselves too? How long can we last?

     I’m not saying we cover up mistakes and sweep them under the carpet, but there’s a limit to what can be said, to whom & on which medium. The OP is a person who’s clearly making a choice that’ll affect the rest of her salvation and right off the bat people start burying our clergy and assassinating the divine office as if it’s a politically held position. Where’s respect, honour, obedience and prayer for our church fathers. Where has all this gone?

     Even when St Athanasius wrote against Apollonarius (who used to be his close friend) he didn’t mention him by name because he still respected him as a bishop and didn’t wish to tarnish his image, hoping for his repentance. St Athanasius remembered his aid in fighting Arianism. So although Apollonarius took his defense of orthodoxy too far and himself fell into heresy, St Athanasius still loved him and respected him(the bishop’s office). If St Athanasius went this far where do we go with our priests who haven’t fallen into heresy but perhaps from time to time make decisions that don’t mesh well with reality. Fine, it happens. Let’s pray for them and move on. They are burdened beyond what we could know. I believe that obedience and faith in God will bring about the best result possible. Because all things work for good. Call me old school, but that’s how the fathers behaved. Those fathers that we use to battle protestants and liberals alike; then lets follow their example as well, not just their words. Of course, there are fathers who’ve called out others by name, and I do understand the need for that sometimes, but this isn’t one of those times where we label all “Coptic clergy” as such or such.

    Ophadece, you’re right, I see the value of these forums where people can ask for help and advise when they’re in a right state of mind. But often times others will hijack these forums because they’ve become the know-it-all or the one everyone expects to respond. This creates ego & fakeness in some of the posters. It creates the need for preserving that online identity and people live vicariously through that. And at the end Christ will bring up all these words to them whether spoken or typed and they’ll be surprised as to how many people they’ve unknowingly stumbled.

    Forgive me all. A blessed Advent fast and please take what I said with grain of salt since the internet can’t convey my emotions or demeanour.

    Lets get back to answering the OP’s question. I’ve derailed this forum enough. 

  • Dear @Tobit,
    I cannot agree more.. God bless us all and help us all, all the time
    oujai khan ebshois
  • Tobit, you have gone completely off topic
  • this poor girl is suffering, and we're just having a chat over leb and sudanee peanuts. Absolutely shameful.

  • edited December 2014

    Remnkemi said:

    I know someone very close to me who started a relationship with a Roman Catholic who had no interest in religion, much less the Coptic church. They actually broke up many times because of religion. Fast forward 2 years. They were engaged in the Coptic church last month.

    Graduating law school doesn't have to be the end. From what you wrote, it seems like a high possibility he will convert even if he says he doesn't want to. The way I see it, he looses nothing if he compromises his atheism. You loose eternal life if you compromise your Orthodoxy. Thankfully, our track record for situations like this end up with Orthodox crowning marriages.

    The only way to get out of a mess is to stop, get out of the environment and see this objectively. The solution to every mess is abundantly clear when you can see objectively. Then objective solutions will not hurt (as long as it is guided by the Holy Spirit). If you can't see your solution objectively, then find a spiritual guide who can. If you want this to work, at some point along your journey, you will have to speak to a priest. There can't be any crowning marriage otherwise.

    Here's a really good secret that applies to you...ask St Mary for help.



    There is not a high possibility he will convert. Yes, he may have "nothing to lose," but you cannot force someone to believe in God. Nor would I want to. That is something that stems from a relationship that they must have on their own. Forcibly converting just for a ritual's sake of marriage is not the issue. The issue is living a life, and raising a family with these two conflicting beliefs. If it is done halfheartedly  then that is building a life on unstable foundation and resentment. 

    Thank you for the advice. Pray for me.
    Dear sister,

    I've been very busy, and I wanted to get to other posts, but I thought this was important.  I agree with you that you cannot enforce someone to believe, and ideally, you cannot just "ritually" convert someone just so you can be allowed to marry them.  The fact that some priests do this only shows how unimportant our sacraments are in their practices, and I do not condone this.

    I also sympathize with you in your love to your partner.  Many times I met wonderful women along the way, many who were non-Christian or non-Orthodox, and I would have easily fallen in love with them (in fact, I did with one).  What held me back was thinking about the future, or as you put it, I would shy away "from these things because I didn't see a marriage out of it."  Now, I did go out on dates with them, but I wanted to nudge out a possibility that I might see some hope of conversion.  But when I saw that, I wouldn't take the relationship further in hopes I still do not lose friends.

    When you get married, you will eventually want to live a life together and have children together.  Your priority right now that you might need to ask is "will my family live a life of Christ?"  That is the priority I always ask for my future, and particularly a future in the Orthodox Church of Christ.  If I see a possibility where my future children would not be given the type of life where they learn and believe in the Church, then how can I call that person a "soulmate"?  A soulmate is one who is compatible with you in ALL things, including spirituality.  Religion is a priority in my life.  If all things are incompatible but religion, and I call him/her a soulmate, then I am just as good as non-religious.  This is the painful reality I think you need to recognize.  You have taken things so far deep and have not weighed in how religion is important for you.  This isn't about traditional Egyptian feelings.  If you go to any Orthodox Church, the ideals are similar.  And divorce statistics do not lie either, when it comes to religion.

    Now, will you find a priest that will just "ritually convert" the man so that you two may marry?  I think so.  But is it the right thing to do in the long term?  Probably not.  What is God's plan?  Is God's plan include risking your future children to live a non-Christian life?  That is not how children are raised.  Otherwise, you cut them off from the life of the Church.  Is that also what you want for your whole household, a household of instability of spirituality?  I'm sure it will be stable financially, a house built on good morals and respect, but what about Christ?  Isn't He also important?  Did He not say in hyperbole, "if you do not hate your mother, father, sister, brother, wife, husband, even your own life, and love Me, you have no life in Me"?

    I suggest you do find a father of confession, a new one, not the one you have.  You seem to have been hurt by the present one that you used to go to, and while I think he probably would love to talk to you and help you with the best intentions of a loving father, perhaps it is best for you to find someone else who you feel best and comfortable with who can connect to your situation as an Americanized woman.  The reason why this hurts you is because I think you know the answer.  You took it really farther than you should have, and you should always evaluate any relationship you will have with someone you date as potentially a marriage.  You should ALWAYS shy away from something that might hurt you along the way.  I know, because I experienced it and made my mistakes along my life, and I think this is an opportunity for you to learn as well.  What are your priorities?  And if you think there's hope, do you think prolonging this relationship any further can give hope to the person you are with to consider the faith?  You need to have an honest discussion with yourself, with him, and with a spiritual guidance.

    God bless you.
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