Help! A disenchanted Catholic is looking for the true church.

edited November 2014 in Coptic Orthodox Church

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for the Coptic webHere are some of my beliefs. Please tell me, does the Coptic church hold these beliefs?

Does the Coptic church agree with these beliefs?
1. birth control is sinful
2. the theory of evolution is not true
3. homosexual contact is sinful (and gay marriage out of the question)
4. repentance, conversions and baptism are necessary for salvation
5. the consecrated Eucharist is really the body and blood of Christ 
6. So-called "ecumenical" prayer meetings in which Christians gather with people from every pagan religion under the sun; and actually pray together with them; as if we all worship the same god; supposedly because pagan "gods" are manifestations or representations of the true God, are wicked. To participate in this is to break the first commandment. 

Comments





  • Jesus said "By your fruits you will know them". I must renounce the Vatican, because how much bad fruit does one need to see? People who support the Vatican today are either liars who pretend that "Pope" Francis is not a heretic, or modernists who hate the faith and therefore love Francis.
    I like the idea of adhering to the first 3 ecumenical councils. Since Jesus left us the faith: whole, true and perfect, we should not need to have so many councils. The Vatican church has had 21 councils. The latest one, The Vatican 2 Council, is an outrage. It promotes other religions and the worship of Man among many other things. Quote "all things on earth should be related to man as their centre and crown" (Gaudium et Spes 12). It practically denies Christ: "Muslims worship the one true God", also claims that Jews are not rejected by God. Vatican officials have since announced that Jews don't need to accept Jesus Christ to be saved.
    Who can remain blind to these outrages? I believe God is being very merciful by allowing it to become so obvious. Now I know I must do something, but I am not sure what. It has occurred to me that true church might be elsewhere.
    As bad as it is, Vatican 2 was not the beginning of this church's problems. For centuries before that popes were collecting pagan statues of Greek deities and displaying them prominently (violating the first and second commandment). The pagan images are still there. If you can't even keep the first commandment, how can you lead the church?
    Here are some of my beliefs. Please tell me, does the Coptic church hold these beliefs?
    1. birth control is sinful
    2. the theory of evolution is not true
    3. homosexual contact is sinful (and gay marriage out of the question)
    4. repentance, conversions and baptism are necessary for salvation
    5. the consecrated Eucharist is really the body and blood of Christ
    6. So-called "ecumenical" prayer meetings in which Christians gather with people from every pagan religion under the sun; and actually pray together with them; as if we all worship the same god; supposedly because pagan "gods" are manifestations or representations of the true God, are wicked. To participate in this is to break the first commandment.
  • In terms of birth control, only abortion is sinful because it is murder. But if you mean the use of contraceptives, this isn't sinful; if used by a married couple. Someone who isn't married usually uses contraceptives (like condoms, etc.) to avoid pregnancy (in some cases S.T.D.'s as well) but the problem isn't the contraceptive but what the person is doing (engaging in sex before marriage).
  • edited November 2014
    Baptism is definitely necessary for salvation. I asked a older adult about this matter from my church recently, and they said that without being born again of water and spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. Continuous repentance is what renews baptism and makes us white and clean again. 
  • edited November 2014
    1. No
    2. At this point in time, definitely Yes this is what is almost always taught in practice and no hierarch has ever publicly shown any sympathy whatsoever to theistic evolution (however, this is *very* slowly changing at the grassroots level - there are a small but increasing number of young theologically educated *laity* who are open to theistic evolution. You will see some evidence of this on online message boards such as this)
    3. Yes
    4. Yes - but we do reject the statement that 'it is impossible for the unbaptised to be saved'
    5. Yes
    6. Yes - however prayers with "Christians who are from a different denomination" are OK (I'm not personally convinced of this last bit myself but it does happen).

    Also, why do you object to the view that we all worship the same God? Do you think that (1) Protestantism and orthodoxy (I use the small 'o' deliberately as you have not indicated whether you believe that Orthodoxy = orthodoxy) worship the same God? What about (2) Catholicism and orthodoxy? Or (3) Orthodoxy and orthodoxy (IF you believe there is a difference)? Depending on your answer to these 3 questions, I will let you know whether I think your objection to 'we all believe in the same God' is logically valid.
  • Qawe,

    Why do we reject that statement? When I asked this question a few weeks ago, the Amin el khidma from my church told me that no one is able to enter the kingdom of heaven without baptism. The only exceptions I can think of are the saints and martyrs of our church. In their case, their sacrificial blood, that was shed in the name of our Lord, is considered as a baptism, but even some of them were led by the Holy Spirit to be baptized in the midst of their tortures (ie a boiling pot of water). So is it because of the martyrs of our church you or the church says we reject that it's impossible for the unbaptized to be saved?
  • @CopticStrength

    It's got nothing to do with martyrs.

    Both statements are true:
    1. You MUST be baptised to be saved
    2. It is not impossible for the unbaptised to be saved (for nothing is impossible with God)

    Christ gave us rule #1 and we must never preach otherwise, but He is not necessarily bound by this, hence #2.
  • @CopticStrength 

    To go along with what qawe said, God will judge everyone according to their own law. So for example, let's say there's a small tribe in Sudan that never heard of Christianity, but were faithful to the natural law (ie: don't steal, lie, be kind to everyone..etc), they will be judged according to what they know. I don't think we should concern ourselves too much with God's judgement of anyone other than ourselves. It get's complicated and we end up judging ;) 
    All we know, like qawe said, is what the church taught us: baptism is necessary :)
  • qawe said:

    @CopticStrength

    It's got nothing to do with martyrs.

    Both statements are true:
    1. You MUST be baptised to be saved
    2. It is not impossible for the unbaptised to be saved (for nothing is impossible with God)

    Christ gave us rule #1 and we must never preach otherwise, but He is not necessarily bound by this, hence #2.

    Explained very nicely - makes sense

  • qawe said:

    @CopticStrength

    It's got nothing to do with martyrs.

    Both statements are true:
    1. You MUST be baptised to be saved
    2. It is not impossible for the unbaptised to be saved (for nothing is impossible with God)

    Christ gave us rule #1 and we must never preach otherwise, but He is not necessarily bound by this, hence #2.

    Thank you for this. Such a simple and beautiful expression of the Economy of our Salvation :D.
  • edited November 2014
    Welcome! I'm sorry to hear of your struggles, though I'm really pleased you found your way here. I'm a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church myself(though I converted from Protestantism), and shared many of your struggles.

    I can affirm that the Coptic Orthodox Church is truly a living witness to the Church founded by Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit, and the preaching of the Apostles.

    In addition to the fullness of the Apostolic Teaching and Sacramental Life, You will find many ancient and apostolic practices in continual use within the Coptic Church, that have sadly fallen into disuse within the Roman Catholic Church.

    I would definitely suggest taking an opportunity to meet with a local Coptic Priest to get the most accurate answers to your questions; the best way to get the answer you seek is to "Come and See."

    However I'll do my best to answer your questions based on the information I've gained during my own formation within the Coptic Church:
  • Tracy said:

    Does the Coptic church agree with these beliefs?

    1. birth control is sinful
    Difficult to answer directly. The general information I've received is that it depends on how "birth control" is defined, and the mechanism of action. For example, the so-called "Morning After Pill" being an abortifacient by nature is considered a sinful means of birth control. One important thing to remember about the Coptic Church is that we maintain the Apostolic Discipline of fasting on Wednesdays, Fridays, before Communion & on many other occasions. This has an interesting side effect of being a natural form of family planning, as married couples can be found following the instructions of St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians  (1 Cor 7:5). This is an example of a wholly acceptable mechanism of action of "birth control."

    2. the theory of evolution is not true
    Darwinian Evolution is rejected. However the Genesis narrative is often interpreted allegorically, rather than literally within the Coptic Church; and this is not without precedent in the Apostolic Churches. St. Augustine (who is venerated in the Coptic Orthodox Church) was an exponent of an allegorical interpretation. Other fathers such as St. Basil the Great, favored a literal interpretation. My personal understanding based on these fathers is that faith requires us to believe God could do it in six literal days, not necessarily that He did do it. The Genesis narrative like all of Scripture is about guiding us into the knowledge of God; in this instance the knowledge of God as Creator, as opposed to other conceptions such as an eternal or self-generating cosmos.

    3. homosexual contact is sinful (and gay marriage out of the question)
    Yes & Yes. The Coptic Church affirms that homosexuality is a sin, and that marriage is the mysterious sacramental union between a man and a woman typifying the mysterious union Christ has with His Church.

    4. repentance, conversions and baptism are necessary for salvation
    We definitely believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, and we baptize babies. Repentance and Conversion are likewise necessary, but also in some respects on-going within the spiritual life of the Coptic Church. We are a Church deeply marked by the ascetic theology of our fathers the monks, and struggle to live a life of continual spiritual renewal. To this end, we practice the Sacrament of Confession and with our priests, and by their guidance enter into spiritual exercises to help us overcome the sinful habits that may remain in our lives.

    5. the consecrated Eucharist is really the body and blood of Christ 
    Shh. This is a holy mystery...

    6. So-called "ecumenical" prayer meetings in which Christians gather with people from every pagan religion under the sun; and actually pray together with them; as if we all worship the same god; supposedly because pagan "gods" are manifestations or representations of the true God, are wicked. To participate in this is to break the first commandment. 

    Ecumenical matters refer to the relations between different Christian bodies. These events would be considered "Inter-faith." Our Church is Ecumenical, always seeking the unity of the Body of Christ, but within the framework of the Orthodox, Apostolic Faith, which was delivered once for all to the saints. The Coptic Church continues to offer martyrs in every generation as a witness to the necessity of clinging to this holy treasure.

    Any Coptic involvement with interfaith matters that I have seen has largely been related to the commonality of concerns (pursuing religious liberties within Egypt for example, which also affects Jews and minority religions) when dealing with governmental and intergovernmental organizations. 
    Basically, like all Apostolic Churches, the Coptic Church positions herself to be a witness to the necessity of human rights for all people, even when we don't agree with their ideology.
  • Metropolitan Kallistos Ware on evolution

  • Hi All,

    Can someone point me to the technical administrators of the forum?

    I received a message from Tracy via PM that she's trouble viewing the forums:

    "Hi. I am having problems on your site. Whenever I try to post a message I get a red bar telling me "body is required", yet there is text in the box. Help, please."

    I don't even know how to begin assisting her on this issue.

    Thanks in advance :)
  • have her pm me. 
  • Hi Mina,

    Thanks for the quick response. I sent her a message letting her know to get in touch with you.

    Have a good night and God bless!
  • Tracy

    Any birth control method is allowed that simply prevents an embryo from developing. Once the embryo is formed, even if it is for 1 second, you cannot harm this.

    The church doesn't subscribe to modern evolutionary theory. The best defense of this is by Dr. Ravi Zacharias. Please search for him on YouTube.

    We believe in all the Bible: that God created man.

    Homosexual contact is sinful and gay marriage is out of the question. The best Christian response to this is by Dr. Ravi Zacharias.

    An adult needs to repent before being baptized.

    The Eucharist is indeed the Holy Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    the Coptic church only recognizes 3 councils. The 4 th council, it's more political than ecumenical , and we don't talk about it. It's very painful.

    The reasons you have become disenchanted with the Catholic Church are the reasons why I too am orthodox. I love very much the Catholic Church, but I felt it was more political at times than spiritual.

    There are even groups who have left the catholic church following Vatican 2 council. These are part of Lefebvre's followers.

    Its sad that you are disenchanted by the catholic church over these issues. Many people prefer the orthodox prayer and hymns we have and that's why they come.

    Listen to our hymns. They are just awesome.


  • Zoxsasi

    I am not sure if quoting Dr. Ravi Zacharias, a protestant teacher, as the best resource is accurate. Are there really not Orthodox resource from Oriental or Eastern Orthodox that answer this questions?   

    In Christ,  
    Theophilus.  
  • Tracy:

     I thought of you today. We had this entire catholic family in our church today who were totally disgruntled with the Catholic Church, for the same reasons as you.

    Theophilus,

    R. Zacharias is a Dr in Philosophy and a Christian apologist. I highly highly recommend him. At the beginning, when told about him, I shunned this as I wasn't into protestant preachers, but you really ought to listen to him. Listening does no harm. 

    If you can understand your theology well, you can enjoy the contemplations of everyone around you without feeling your faith is under threat.
  • Zoxsasi said:

    Tracy

    Any birth control method is allowed that simply prevents an embryo from developing. Once the embryo is formed, even if it is for 1 second, you cannot harm this.

    The church doesn't subscribe to modern evolutionary theory. The best defense of this is by Dr. Ravi Zacharias. Please search for him on YouTube.

    We believe in all the Bible: that God created man.

    Homosexual contact is sinful and gay marriage is out of the question. The best Christian response to this is by Dr. Ravi Zacharias.

    An adult needs to repent before being baptized.

    The Eucharist is indeed the Holy Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    the Coptic church only recognizes 3 councils. The 4 th council, it's more political than ecumenical , and we don't talk about it. It's very painful.

    The reasons you have become disenchanted with the Catholic Church are the reasons why I too am orthodox. I love very much the Catholic Church, but I felt it was more political at times than spiritual.

    There are even groups who have left the catholic church following Vatican 2 council. These are part of Lefebvre's followers.

    Its sad that you are disenchanted by the catholic church over these issues. Many people prefer the orthodox prayer and hymns we have and that's why they come.

    Listen to our hymns. They are just awesome.


    Regarding the council of Chalcedon, why is it that you say "we don't talk about it, it's very painful"?

    Glory is due to God, who has made His church strong and triumphant even at times of persecution; whether physical or political. And we strive for ecumenism, but we still hold the same view we did at Chalcedon, and advocate the miaphysitism of Christ. Therefore, we understand that it was unfortunate, but we do not shy away from proclaiming the history of our Church and fathers. Glory to God.
  • I went to an Coptic church for a about two months. I could not get past the foreignness of it. The arabic, the feeling like the one round peg  in a sea of square holes. I wonder if I should of stuck it out, but I felt like I never going to be part of the parish. 
    So I went back to Rome. Rome is very much home for me. Thou I feel where your coming from on a lot of these issues and am deeply depressed by her leaders. I struggle with sin and faith daily, to see people who are supposed to be are leaders and models do, say and act how they do at times makes me so upset cause I try so hard. Sometimes it seems pointless.

  • sorry you didn't stay longer.
    maybe try again in a couple of years, when people will be better integrated culturally with those who live around them in the diaspora.
    may God guide you and give you peace and you keep searching for a deeper union with Him.
  • Maybe you can find another Coptic Church that is more open to cultural diversity. I know in my area where there are 5 churches, some are heavily English focused, some are heavily Arabic focused. Maybe you just went to a Coptic Church that was heavily Arabic focused. There may be adequate alternatives for you that you may not have considered. 
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