St. Mary, the salvation of our father Adam?

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hey,

I was just wondering, during the hymn "Shashf ensop" during the midnight praises, we say "Hail to you Mary, the salvation of our father Adam". How is St. Mary the salvation of Adam? Likewise, how is she "the salvation of Noah", "the rejoicing of Jacob", "the knowledge of Ezekiel", "the grace of Daniel", etc.?

Comments

  • I once heard a sermon by a priest saying that he has no idea what they mean and he hasn't yet met a person who knows what they mean.
  • Thanks to Saint Mary, we had our salvation. What if she said "No" ?

    Because she said "Yes" - Christ was born, He came and not just saved us, but redeemed us from the problem Adam put us in; hence we say "The salvation of Adam".

    Of course Christ saved Adam. But none of this would have been possible if it wasn't for the Holy Theotokos.
  • [quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14638.msg166113#msg166113 date=1380556447]
    Thanks to Saint Mary, we had our salvation. What if she said "No" ?

    Because she said "Yes" - Christ was born, He came and not just saved us, but redeemed us from the problem Adam put us in; hence we say "The salvation of Adam".

    Of course Christ saved Adam. But none of this would have been possible if it wasn't for the Holy Theotokos.


    I totally agree with the explanation, but the wording in some areas is kind of sketchy. Salvation wasn't conditional on whether she said yes or no, and everything would have still been possible if St. Mary wasn't the one, it's just that because she was the holiest of people found on earth that God did this miraculous thing
  • lets be careful with what we say,

    Thanks to Saint Mary, we had our salvation. What if she said "No" ?

    Because she said "Yes" - Christ was born, He came and not just saved us, but redeemed us from the problem Adam put us in; hence we say "The salvation of Adam".

    Of course Christ saved Adam. But none of this would have been possible if it wasn't for the Holy Theotokos.

    If saint Mary would've disagreed, God would have moved on and used another person, by no means is Saint Mary a supreme cause of our salvation. I know what you mean, and I know you mean in good meaning, but be careful, when I read it your response, I had discomfort with the way you stated it theologically. 

    let me propose a question to answer you, who saved Noah from the flood? the answer is God! how did God save Noah? by having him build a tool to save him and his family... the same with saint Mary, she was just a tool trough which salvation came from, hence the hymn says, "hail to you Mary, the salvation of our father Adam" and it is directly followed by, "Hail to you Mary, the Mother of refuge" so our attention would not go to think she's the salvation, but the mother of the refuge or salvation. hymns are poetic as you can see the hymn clearly differentiates her from the salvation, but shows her as just a utensil to be used for the salvation, that is the same reason she's called the salvation of Noah, as I explained above. the rejoicing of Jacob is due to her being from his offspring, its the same if you were to become the president, you bring your family name glory, rejoicing, honor. this can clearly be seen by how Abraham then Issac then Jacob in that order of mentioning them, and then what is said? the pride of Judah... and then she's mentioned of how she correlates with all the prophets. 
    for Ezekiel, he was told there is no secret that will be held from him, he also saw a dream seeing God and heaven... now how did we see God and Heaven? through Him becoming a man through the utensil which is the Virgin... so in poetic format, she's the knowledge of Ezekiel.
  • [quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14638.msg166125#msg166125 date=1380587834]
    ...by no means is Saint Mary a supreme cause of our salvation.


    Well said, by the way, Mr Superman. Of course she is not the supreme cause of our salvation.

    I know many protestants who have a problem with the verse:

    "Hail to you O Mariam, the salvation of Adam..."

    I think the word "Salvation" in the phrase "Salvation of Adam" - in Arabic is not the same as the English word "Salvation". Perhaps someone with better Arabic can correct me, but "Khallas Abeena Adam" - generally means the one who rescued/helped; whereas we know Christ is the one who redeemed & saved us. Perhaps they are synonyms - not sure.
  • Hey superman,

    The explanations you gave above were really beautiful and great! Would you mind explaining the rest of the verses that have to do with the verses saying "Hail to you O Mary...." for our benefit?

    God Bless
  • ezekiel the prophet had a vision of the incarnation in ezekiel chapter 44:2 when the king/prince enters through the east gate, and the gate remains always shut.
    the gate represents the virgin mary, and the gate being shut represents her remaining always a virgin.

    as far as i know, all the hymns can be explained very well, so keep on looking until you find someone who answers your questions.
    the orthodox Christian faith was never about accepting things that make no sense; we are supposed to ask questions so that we can truly believe.
    :)
  • the orthodox Christian faith was never about accepting things that make no sense

    I disagree, for example the hymn "amda7 fel batool", please try to explain it... it is filled with errors and mistakes... some of them are even theological mistakes... one of the poorest worded hymns in the church... but we accept it, do you know why? because it sounds cool, we have become as the followers of Arius, accepting hymns just because of the tune.

    Hey superman,

    The explanations you gave above were really beautiful and great! Would you mind explaining the rest of the verses that have to do with the verses saying "Hail to you O Mary...." for our benefit?

    God Bless

    thank you, but I want to clear this is my personal meditation. but if you read the hymn and read the bible, you would understand what the author meant... I wish, and I know I'm going off of topic, if we can form a group, and take the church hymns and write up meditations and explanations, and we can put them together in a book... if any takers would like to form such a thing let me know, and we'll try to do it.
  • Hey Superman.

    I was just thinking about doing something like that, putting meditations in a book, I would be glad to help out if you want to do this.

    God Bless
  • Perfect pm me on way for communication and all those who are interested
  • hi, what i mean is that all of our faith has a clear explanation, and we should keep asking till we get answers; the answers are definitely there.
    if there are some hymns that don't make sense; this is a different problem.
    so we rejoice that salvation came through saint mary, and that makes sense. i don't think it is too hard to explain that.
    but if a few lines in a hymn are badly written, they should be rewritten to make better sense.
  • [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=14638.msg166192#msg166192 date=1381132956]
    hi, what i mean is that all of our faith has a clear explanation, and we should keep asking till we get answers; the answers are definitely there.
    if there are some hymns that don't make sense; this is a different problem.
    so we rejoice that salvation came through saint mary, and that makes sense. i don't think it is too hard to explain that.
    but if a few lines in a hymn are badly written, they should be rewritten to make better sense.


    +1
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