About starting as a deacon at the age of 20 (not sure if I should do it)...

edited August 2013 in Personal Issues
Hey there, that's my first time to post here my name is Bishoy I'm from Egypt and I'm 20 years old, I was baptized and raised in the Coptic orthodox church, but when I was 15 I became an atheist as I witnessed many things (specially the persecution of my friend because he was a christian) that made me doubt god is there but then after 3 years I entered college and a friend there invited me to his church (evangelical protestant) and I attended there for some months, then I returned to ignore god (I used to ignore god every time a bad thing happens) then I started to go to my orthodox church with my family during the holy week and I really liked the thing there and I started to attend, now I attend but not every week, but I recently started to feel jealous of my friends who remained deacons and didn't leave the church (as I was a deacon before I became an atheist, not ordained but was there already) so I talked to one of them yesterday and I asked him to help me enter the deacons family in the church and start attending hymn lessons and so.

But today I feel like this: what if I started doubting again (whether in orthodoxy or in god, I mean I studied a lot and came to conclusion that god is there and orthodoxy is the rightest but what if something really bad happened, i mean I don't want to be swinging from the church and outside especially if I'm attached to diaconate, I don't want to make the decision and then leave again, also can't you see that it's a little bit weird for a 20 year old to attend hymn lessons among little deacons and be ordained (after a while) among them too, I think it's a little bit odd.

So can you consult me on the swinging part and the age part, sorry if my ideas are not arranged well, thanks a lot, god bless you.

Comments

  • Christ told us that "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33). This means that you should not expect life to be easy; you will have challenges and difficulties but that should not hinder your faith. With that said...

    It seems to me you you need a firmer grounding in your faith. No one should believe in anything blindly or just because of friends. I recommend you read more into your faith and ask servants from your orthodox church where you can learn more about the subject of apologetics (defending the faith).
    Here is a very nice link about apologetics (please look into it): http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/apologetics/
    Here is also a nice article that I think you should read: http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/549/the-problem-of-evil/

    Keep in mind that not everyone's faith is perfect and by attaching yourself to the church and attending spiritual lessons and meetings, you will continue to grow in the it--that and a personal relationship with God Himself (daily prayer, repentance/confession, and communion). So do not stop attending meetings, lessons, and partaking of the sacraments that the church provides because you need it to grow. At the same time, the service and order of being a deacon is not a joke. It is not something you just quit and then come back to--it is your service to God. So before you make your decision, be sure that you are able to stick with it and keep it honorably. It is never too late to become a deacon by the way!

    Bad things happen all the time, but if you look hard enough, you can find that they often happen for our betterment. I keep hearing stories that, despite all the burning of the churches in Egypt, the body of Christ is now stronger than ever--people are seeing members who never used to come to church coming early and eagerly to worship. Not to mention all the souls that have earned the crown of martyrdom for their unwavering faith.

    "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28

  • [quote author=Bishoy.Adel link=topic=14590.msg165772#msg165772 date=1377618522]
    Hey there, that's my first time to post here my name is Bishoy I'm from Egypt and I'm 20 years old, I was baptized and raised in the Coptic orthodox church, but when I was 15 I became an atheist as I witnessed many things (specially the persecution of my friend because he was a christian) that made me doubt god is there but then after 3 years I entered college and a friend there invited me to his church (evangelical protestant) and I attended there for some months, then I returned to ignore god (I used to ignore god every time a bad thing happens) then I started to go to my orthodox church with my family during the holy week and I really liked the thing there and I started to attend, now I attend but not every week, but I recently started to feel jealous of my friends who remained deacons and didn't leave the church (as I was a deacon before I became an atheist, not ordained but was there already) so I talked to one of them yesterday and I asked him to help me enter the deacons family in the church and start attending hymn lessons and so.

    But today I feel like this: what if I started doubting again (whether in orthodoxy or in god, I mean I studied a lot and came to conclusion that god is there and orthodoxy is the rightest but what if something really bad happened, i mean I don't want to be swinging from the church and outside especially if I'm attached to diaconate, I don't want to make the decision and then leave again, also can't you see that it's a little bit weird for a 20 year old to attend hymn lessons among little deacons and be ordained (after a while) among them too, I think it's a little bit odd.

    So can you consult me on the swinging part and the age part, sorry if my ideas are not arranged well, thanks a lot, god bless you.


    The question of age is a non-issue in my opinion. In fact, I think it should be encouraged for people to join the diaconate around that age, as opposed to the 5-10 yr old range that is common.

    The real issue, as Amoussa correctly identified, is your faith.

    I think that you should not worry about whether you will have strong faith at some point in the future and use that as a reason to deter you from taking action today.

    You have the faith now and you are in the Church now.

    Serving in your parish will provide blessings (and by serving I don't mean only chanting...you don't need to become a chanter). But I believe service to be an important part of being a functioning member in Christ's Body.

    But of course, when in doubt, talk to your father confessor.
  • very good points, both of you.
    bishoy, God longs for a close relationship with you.
    it's good if u love Him because He loves you (all else is of secondary importance)
    :)
  • Dear Bishoy.Adel,
    Please refer to God with a capital g, otherwise the word god describes any man-made idol. Secondly use the church, hymns, deaconate as means to an end, not the end in itself. That is to say do these things for God and in order to get closer to Him and even if you become blighted by doubting thoughts never stop, but ask Him to help you. He may not appear to you in the flesh but will certainly help you feel His presence through inner peace and personal as well as other people's experiences too. Just don't expect this to happen very soon, so persist.. God bless you and pray for me
    Oujai
  • Thanks a lot for everybody who responded:

    1) Amoussa1: I've been questioning my faith for the last 5 years, what I need now is having faith and keeping it, like forever, I'm reading the articles right now, and I hope I can continue this journey.

    2) Andrew: "I think that you should not worry about whether you will have strong faith at some point in the future and use that as a reason to deter you from taking action today.

    You have the faith now and you are in the Church now." Thanks a lot for encouraging me by saying these words.

    3) Mabsoota: Believe me I long for a relationship with him too, but I just feel that the faith comes and goes in times, like someone or something is pushing me away from christianity, the church and God.

    3) Ophadece: Thanks for the note about the capital G I think I was careful this time, I use the church and the diaconate to attach myself to faith as I think the most time I was in church is when I was a deacon, so I want to use this diaconate as a means to stay in church.

    Thanks again everybody, keep me in your prayers.
  • The doubts you have are obviously from the devil, so don't let it put you off getting involved in church :)

    Also you said you are worried about something bad happening again that may drive you away from god again. We are not perfect. We are all weak because we are human. Admit that you are weak and ask for God's help and He'll never let you down.

    Just to share: I have these moments when there are problems in my life and I get angry at God when things don't go well. (how dare me get angry at god, but i do). Then I speak to god and say, God, i'm angry. Why did you let this happen to me, I am really suffering right now. He hears me! (even though I am angry) so speak to him, tell him how you feel and that you need him.

    All these problems make us stronger. If you haven't had these problems and did not for a short time become an atheist..you wouldn't have studied and searched for the truth; you could have been just somebody who was born in a christian family but has no idea about anything. Everything that you have been through made you who you are today. You are stronger than you think (in Christ). So try not to listen to the thoughts that bring you down or discourage you from doing good.
  • I greatly understand your problem and concern,

    The interesting thing is that you are worried of falling back into your past. This means that you are making a slight but dangerous mistake in your repentance. You are afraid of your past because you keep looking at it. If you stop focussing on reproaching yourself much, and stop focussing on the atheism in your past, and START focussing on the light of Christ in the future, and the blessings he promises both now and after, the past will not torture you as much! It will be dead with the old man, and you will put on the new man.

    Pray, and ask guidance of your spiritual father as to accepting the service, and may God help your repentance be in peace. If you need help, I know much about atheism and the struggle against it, and would be willing to help.

    GB
    Ray
  • @mnc_hnn: I know it's from the devil but the problem is I can't go to the church now and start attending lessons and so as I live here in Egypt and if you are here or are following the situation here, there is a lot of conflict in the streets and the churches even cancelled all the meetings and so and only the mass is held, and speaking of getting angry at God, I mean I get a lot angry as you know, here many innocent people died, I keep on saying that they didn't have a chance to have a life as they were killed, especially if they were young, so pray for me to have faith in those situations and pray to God that he may end the conflict here.

    @ReturnOrthodoxy: I try not to look at the past but this past took about 5 years of my 20 year old life, it's a lot of years so I can't simply forget them, and about the help you offered, thanks a lot, I really need help with some issues in atheism, if you have any resources, articles or so about why the big bang, the evolution and so are wrong, scientifically, I mean atheists depend on these issues to say Christianity is wrong, so my mind were formed to believe those things, but I really want to believe in creationism and I don't want to keep on dwelling in what the atheists believe, that's what I need, God bless you, thanks.

    Again thanks to all, and again sorry if I can't express what I think or want to say with words in an effective manner :)
  • Evolution, and especially the Big Bang, are compatible with Orthodoxy.  You need not lose your faith because of them.
  • Dear Bishoy.Adel,
    What is life? Life has no meaning and is worth nothing. Be sure that God takes people at their best ever chance possible. What He sees no man can. The more important thing is eternal life, even if some people die younger than you. Don't be materialistic, what would they have lived for? To watch Egypt play and win the world cup? To learn the most recent advances in technology? Not worth anything if God wants to choose them to be with Him.
    Atheists depend on lots of arguments that are fallacious. Who said Christianity is against evolution or big bang? The Bible isn't a scientific encyclopedia and certainly it doesn't explain how the process of creation originated, but we will learn when we are up there.. please pray for me..
    Oujai
  • I agree with Qawe and Ophadeece. i am a Christian who believes in evolution, and the big bng!

    Ray
  • Bishoy.Adel
    I was ordained along with most of my generation at a very young age (age 6 or 7) and kind of fell behind in learning coptic and hymns class. eventually i lost interest in serving. It affected my relationship with God. But as i rediscovered the deaconate and learned most of the hymns and responses and even quite a bit of Coptic grammar, I feel my prayer life increased and I'm continually growing closer to God. There is no age for the service of God. So Please strive! If you were ordained you're a deacon forever! and I'm sure you'll feel closer to God through service if you take it seriously and you will learn and progress. Being a deacon is a precious blessing and few understand its value, so I urge you to embark on this amazing quest. May God guide you.
    Pray for me.
  • doubts are the only way to the unshakable faith. doubts is not the opposite of believe.. it is just doubt. its wrong when u dont seek answers to questions so look for them. and thats why we have brains. theres is that semon by Father anthony messeh( my hero) that just talk about that watch it, its long but it helps so much. and about being ordained, its never too late... i personally got ordained when i was 17 so DO IT.. its fun to be there during the liturgy and u enjoy the liturgy more

    about the evolution part this vid put it the right way! 

    Please pray for my weakness!!! A LOT
  • So, saying evolution is OK really cancels the idea that god created Adam and eve because evolution says that every living organism is developed from the same origin, so why would god for example create animals then people if he can create just one organism and let every other thing evolves from it, so that's my view on evolution.

    @Godsavedme: First of all thanks for the links, the problem in doubt is that I think I'm not emotionally stable, so if I have doubts in my faith what am I sure of!!! and thanks again for encouraging me to get ordained :)
  • What is creation? Could it be another term for evolution? Why not?
    Oujai
  • This may sound shocking to people here but I don't believe one needs to have no serious doubts in order to be a christian. God is looking for a mustard seed of faith.
    The desire to accept Jesus as God is itself faith in Him. Because one sees no other man like Him. That does not mean one can sin all he wants and just accept Jesus before he dies. It is never too late but it is complicated. One may not be truly contrite if his plan is to sin all he wants and then accept Jesus before he dies. He only deserves forgiveness if he is in bondage to sin and especially if he is not sinning as a respone to rejection to Jesus because he wants to be a friend of the world. Then he is even more like a devil

    I happen to now have understanding and knowledge that Jesus is God but I know I can lose it if I am not careful and enemy speaks. I desire to read hindu scriptures because my tutor is hindu with assurance Jesus loves me and asking Him to protect me because I am doing it for His names sake and tutor but God might think I am being proud and allow me to lose my faith He might think I will be abusive towards other religions and not meek in my conversations and just trying to prove them wrong rather than praying for them and doing it God's way by letting God draw them to Him. I should be ready to defend my faith if my tutor asks me the hope that is in me. But if I am not completely righteous myself I probably won't be able to. The tongue of the righteous talks of wisdom. God may take faith from people temporaily to discipline them and make them seek Him more.
    I do plan on reading those hindu scriptures because I plan on being more humble and I rest in God's love for me. However I should do that more if I was not busy with work or anything. I already have enough problems of distracting thoughts

    BTW we don't believe in macro evolution only micro evolution why are the rest of the posters so vague and not straight forward?
  • @Ophadece: This maybe a huge misunderstanding but I think the micro and macro evolution is wrong, I think the other thing is called mixed breeding or something , I don't know really but It's about the whole thing, I really wish that everything that happened in the last 5 years was reversed, and that I'm still a christian and a deacon. God be with you and bless you.

    @MikeforJesus: Thanks a lot for encouraging me and telling me about the mustard seed faith but I become really anxious when I have unstable things in my life, especially if it's something like faith, so I need to be sure of everything I do/believe in, and about the Hindu scriptures, I really read about Hinduism and stayed in it for a while, and I think reading them can be very beneficial for you to be a better Christian, if you dealt with them as a philosophy, God be with you and bless you.
  • Bishoy.Adel

    God wants us more than we want him. He promised that He desires the salvation of all sinners. He loved us first, and that is why we love Him. Remember that the Lord who created Heaven and Earth is Your Father, and He loved you to the extent that he died on the cross to open the gates of paradise, that we may too have a chance to be with Him in paradise.

    Often when I am lazy and spiritually burnt out, I like to remember this; Christ wants us to be with Him, LIKE HIM, "Be perfect as My Father in Heaven is perfect". Look at all the saints, I know they are so much greater than us! But they were born with the same image of God as us, nothing different, except that their desire for God and His Kingdom grew so great, that they consecrated their lives for Him. The path is long and narrow, but it is as sweet as honey. Jesus Christ Who gave strength to His children to become such saints is now waiting for you to come and ask from Him that He may give you too. Do we not say in midnight praises (tasbeha) "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever"?

    "Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." John 16:24

    Pray for me the sinner, that the Lord may forgive me.
  • [quote author=Monasticsx link=topic=14590.msg165830#msg165830 date=1378263196]
    Bishoy.Adel

    God wants us more than we want him. He promised that He desires the salvation of all sinners. He loved us first, and that is why we love Him. Remember that the Lord who created Heaven and Earth is Your Father, and He loved you to the extent that he died on the cross to open the gates of paradise, that we may too have a chance to be with Him in paradise.

    Often when I am lazy and spiritually burnt out, I like to remember this; Christ wants us to be with Him, LIKE HIM, "Be perfect as My Father in Heaven is perfect". Look at all the saints, I know they are so much greater than us! But they were born with the same image of God as us, nothing different, except that their desire for God and His Kingdom grew so great, that they consecrated their lives for Him. The path is long and narrow, but it is as sweet as honey. Jesus Christ Who gave strength to His children to become such saints is now waiting for you to come and ask from Him that He may give you too. Do we not say in midnight praises (tasbeha) "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever"?

    "Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." John 16:24

    Pray for me the sinner, that the Lord may forgive me.


    +1

    Thank you, Monasticsx

    Ray
  • @Monasticsx: Thanks a lot, really, I mean telling me that I can ask Fod to make me _a huge sinner_ like one of the saints is a huge thing to me.

    I'm sorry I wasn't logging in in the last 24 days, I wanted to tell you all that I attended my first deaconite class today, It was amazing even though I was sitting among younger kids but even me and the few older guys had a lot of fun, i had peace knowing that I'm on the way to return to the life I had before atheism.

    There's that thing I wanted to ask about that is how to find peace while living in that kind of environment, people who live in Egypt especially please tell me how do you find peace of mind and how do you _I don't know if it's an appropriate expression_ trust God with the problems happening here, and I don't just mean persecution but all of those bad people who spread negativity, steel from people, annoy girls and sexually harass them, deal with people in a bad manner or just say bad words, how do you deal with all this tension and trust God 100% with all of that, I need like practical tips to have peace of mind.

    God be with you all.
  • [quote author=Bishoy.Adel link=topic=14590.msg166091#msg166091 date=1380314124]
    There's that thing I wanted to ask about that is how to find peace while living in that kind of environment, people who live in Egypt especially please tell me how do you find peace of mind and how do you _I don't know if it's an appropriate expression_ trust god with the problems happening here, and I don't just mean persecution but all of those bad people who spread negativity, steel from people, annoy girls and sexually harass them, deal with people in a bad manner or just say bad words, how do you deal with all this tension and trust god 100% with all of that, I need like practical tips to have peace of mind.

    God be with you all.


    Dear Bishoy.Adel, really glad to hear of your improved situation.

    A useful spiritual exercise that many Orthodox use is the repetition of a short prayer constantly throughout the day, in one's heart. That way, no matter the outward circumstance, no matter the environment, one is able to lift their heart to God. Some call it the Jesus prayer, and there are different variations e.g. "O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Or "O Lord Jesus, grant me true repentance." Or some other short prayer etc.

    You can repeat it anywhere and everywhere constantly, to keep your mind on God, to keep your heart from being entangled with the snares of the world around you.

  • Dear JG,

    Thanks a lot for your encouraging and useful exercise, sorry I wasn't logging in a lot to respond, God be with you, pray for my weakness.
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