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Lazarus saturday

toitoi
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hi,
I was wondering why there are two tunes for the hymn lazaros, and which one is commonly used ?

Comments

  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear toitoi,
    if you mean Lazarus hymn during Communion, then you should know it has only one tune. It's a watos hymn and so it's said as cantor Wagdy recorded it on this site. Those who say it in Adam beweik tune are simply mistaken including Ibrahim Ayad

    Oujai
  • Amoussa01
    Ophadece,

    what the heck are you talking about? Why is Pi-Oik considered an "Adam" tune? I understand it is taken from the Sunday Theotokia, but that doesn't mean it is only chanted on Sundays, Mondays, and Tuesdays. Pi-Oik is a standard hymn for any annual day. How can there be this distinction between Adam and Watos tunes for communion? If so, what are the Watos hymns? Besides, both cantor Gad and Ibrahim (and I think Faheem) chant it in the Pi-Oik tune. What authoritative source chants it in any other way?
  • drewhalim
    I agree with the above there is no Adam or Batos communion hymns during annual times.  If Pioik is Adam then what makes the doxology tune Batos?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Despite what cantors say, there are BOOKS that refer to each tune.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Thanks Amoussa01 and drewHalim,
    there are watos tunes and Adam tunes regardless, or perhaps I should say in addition to, the tunes set for specific days of the week. Basically any tune should either be watos or Adam unless it's not separated into quartets or stanzas. To find out about either, it's very easy: count the vowels, syllables, or beats however you want to call them, and from 5-7 that's an Adam tune, from 8-10 that's a watos. You can struggle to sing ebshois nda nijom in ownowf emmo tune, but you'll do it. That's exactly what the cantors you referred to did with Lazarus Communion hymn.. strictly speaking beweik shouldn't be sung outside of Sunday's but it is.
  • ophadeceophadece
    There was a debate before about what should be said during Communion on days other Sunday's but nothing concrete was reached.
    As drewHalim says all Gospel responses, doxologies, and other long hymns, e.g. kata nikhoros, bebnewma are watos, while verses of cymbals, acts responses are Adam regardless of the days they fall on
    oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I get and agree that Pi-oik is an adam hymn...where in the world did you get to the conclusion that is should be said only on sundays?!
  • Amoussa01
    Ophadece and Mina,

    What authoritative source(s) agrees that Pi-Oik is an Adam hymn? Based on what I read this is all personal speculation that is not backed up by any sources whatsoever. For all you know, that book you have could have had a typo...

    FYI: Adam and Watos do not stictly refer to tune.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "authoritative source(s)" eh ya ebny?! it's the structure of the hymn and the text that tells if a hymn (text rather) is adam or watos. actually, further thinking, the morning doxology is an adam hymns, where it is concluded with neknai o panouti also an adam hymn--in the 7 ways, the 7 tunes that are chanted are ALL adam hymns...one of those is pioik :-)
  • drewhalim
    I think it is safe to conclude that the hymn of Lazarus can be chanted in the tune of Pioik or like the doxology/madi7a tune. I know I have heard recordings of both ways but cantors such as Muallim Faheem. I personally would consider Pioik a 'hymn' whilst the doxology tune is something chanted in a quick tune. I see that Wagdi Bishara records it in the annual mohayar tune while the sources I have heard such as Muallim Faheem chant it in the quick doxology tune.

    Even if Pioik is an Adam hymn in tune it is most definitely not a hymn exclusive for Adam days only. For example the Aspasmos' have Adam and Batos tunes but that does not dictate which days they are chanted on. In turn the morning doxology is an adam hymn (as mentioned above) yet it is chanted everyday, with a few exceptions, and does not change its tune according to the day.
  • Amoussa01
    So what is a Watos Communion hymn? What would it sound like? Why does Wagdi record it like the Mohayar? What should one chant on Watos days for communion?
  • drewhalim
    I do not know of any specific Batos communion hymns. However the annual communion is
    1. Psalm 150
    2 Ekesmarouot
    3. Pioik
    4. Praise / Madi7a (following the quick doxology tune)

    This is seven days a week during annual times. While I respect Wagdi Bishara as a learned person from the recordings I have heard on this website I would question quite a few of the hymns I have heard and have asked a lot about him, in particular cantors in Cairo, but nobody seems to know who he is.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Watos hymns always change and follow the occasions hymns. so the madayeh are watos ones....toba lel rohma for example.

    I think Pi-oik is maybe considered its own tune, while being adam and at some point of time someone through of Lazarus as a unique hymn rather than a regular madeha that you can rakeeb...so they decided to take pi-oiks tune and construct it with it.
  • Amoussa01
    So for annual days, the madeyah are said during watos days? The tune of the madeyah is not adam in this case. This is not making any sense. "Blessed are those..." is also not a "watos" tune either since it could be chanted on Sundays. I am going to respectfully disagree with regards to this sort of reasoning.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=14398.msg164357#msg164357 date=1367007896]
    So for annual days, the madeyah are said during watos days? The tune of the madeyah is not adam in this case. This is not making any sense. "Blessed are those..." is also not a "watos" tune either since it could be chanted on Sundays. I am going to respectfully disagree with regards to this sort of reasoning.

    now you are considering hymns with days. not all hymns (watos or adam) are said on the specific days (watos or adam). DO take it as a standard to do that. you can say the aspasmoses at any liturgy on any days. you say the morning doxology every day with it's adam ending. you say the doxologies every matins despite what days it is, and they are watos hymns.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Mina,
    can't remember the source that says beweik is arranged for Sunday's only.. imikhail may shed some light if he still follows this forum. Don't confuse yourself, there are no Arabic melodies that can be described as Adam or watos.
    dear amoussa,
    Adam and watos refer to tunes as well as days rites as drewHalim alluded to before.. there are some hymns like psalm 150 which is neither, but arranged on watos tunes on occasions other than annual days..
    drewHalim,
    I believe your understanding of hymns vs quick tunes is rather feeble. You may actually better describe them as long and short hymns, or responses.
    Dear all,
    Lazarus Communion hymn is a watos hymn
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14398.msg164359#msg164359 date=1367013197]
    Dear Mina,
    can't remember the source that says beweik is arranged for Sunday's only.. imikhail may shed some light if he still follows this forum. Don't confuse yourself, there are no Arabic melodies that can be described as Adam or watos.
    Oujai

    lol....so it's gonna be something in sme book that was said a long time ago and yet we still wanted to be a standard.....leh keda bass ya ophadece.
    i am not confusing myself...the madayeh are changed in a watos tune that changes...that makes them watos hymns.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Mina, I don't want anything to be standard. I'm here to learn, and when I'm certain of something I say it, when I am not I don't.
    Again Arabic or English melodies and Christian songs aren't Adam or watos. They don't have any criteria to follow, but they are just fitted on the tune. You cannot say the song "al-oleika" is watos even though it fits on a watos tune. A better explanation is saints' glorifications in Arabic, you can sing them in both tunes. Hope that makes sense.
    oujai
  • drewhalim
    Personally I cannot understand the argument. There are sources that say the hymn can be chanted in the tune of Pioik or the doxology tune therefore the choice is of the cantor? However neither is incorrect. Clearly cantors such as Ibrahim Ayad and Gad Louis were taught the Pioik tune and this is what they choose to teach  for the record although no source suggests that the hymn can be chanted in the annual mohayar tune as Wagdi Bishara does I would not correct this tune incorrect .

    Blessed Feast to you all!
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear drewHalim,
    cantor Ibrahim Ayad and cantor Gad are wrong. The hymn structure and consequently the tune cannot be Adam, and therefore cannot be fitted on beweik. As much as I agree with you in not being so impressed by Wagdy, he is right, talking specifically of this hymn, not others he might be wrong in.
    Oujai
  • drewhalim
    I think you are not going to convince us that they are wrong and likewise you are not going to be convinced that there are two tunes to the hymn. Who knows back in the day it may of even had its own specific tune that was lost, we will never know.

    It goes without saying that the two tunes exist and therefore that answers the very question that started this thread.

    Hopefully all hymns and teachings will one day be unified in our church as this is what is currently lacking.
  • ophadeceophadece
    So we agree to disagree?!!!!!!!!!!!! That's really strange, because any one who understands Coptic hymns (and of course I think you do) will understand no watos tune can be sung on an Adam tune or vice versa!!!
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • drewhalim
    Interestingly while I was at church this evening I looked at our old Dalal book from the early 1900s, so before any of the Deacons service books, and it simply states to be chanted in the annual tune. There is no mention of what the annual tune is nor any reference to any other hymn which shares the same tune, which is often the case with the older books.
  • ophadeceophadece
    The annual tune is the annual doxology tune, which is what Wagdy has recorded...
    oujai
  • drewhalim
    I don't think we can say that with all certainty. It is a fair assumption but not necessarily fact. Again we have the point that Wagsy recorded all verses in the annual mohayar and not the sociology tune.

  • ophadeceophadece
    What? It's so surprising and strange to see how you'd like to resist any teaching other than Ibrahim Ayad's or Gad's. That's ok, we've all been there until you get more and more experienced and you'll find all of them making mistakes in some things. The doxology tune isn't just quick, it can also be said in a long tune, and mohayer, exactly like danwah enswk.
    oujai
  • drewhalim
    I think in your ignorance you make swift assumptions. I do not learn from either Gad Louis or Ibrahim Ayad and know for a fact they make mistakes, just like any human does. However I do know them personally and have great admiration for their knowledge and hard work.

    More and more experienced? You do not have a clue who I am nor the knowledge I have and the source of it so I find this a very childish comment to make.

    FYI - I am yet to find a cantor perfect to the extent that we can say he does not err and I doubt we ever will.

    As a final point humbleness is a good characteristic to have in the deaconate.  I used to be tge rituals administrator on coptichymns.net and only recently starting posting on here although have followed for years. I can see that some people are not capable of communicating in a kind manner on a forum and now understand why various users have stopped posting.
  • ophadeceophadece
    I'm awfully sorry drewHalim.. I think I offended you too much.. there's an Arabic saying along the lines of "whoever doesn't know you lacks sense towards you". I believe that's exactly what happened here.. I'm sorry again
    Oujai
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