Constantine

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13480.msg157949#msg157949 date=1342846457]
I know this is going to upset a lot of people ...

Neither Constantine nor Eusabius are saints in the OO Church. Both are heretics; the former was baptized by an Arian, the latter insisted on following Arianism. This is well documented.

Unfortunately, Constantine crept into the hymns of the Coptic Church recently in the 20th century. There is no evidence whatsoever, prior to this period, that he was a celebrated saint in the Church.
[/quote]

I agree with you on this. I would be very interested in any evidence you have for the late additions to the psalmody, synaxarium, etc.
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Comments

  • Just want to add this letter from Constantine to the Church of Alexandria.

    Constantine Augustus, to the catholic church of the Alexandrians.
    (1.) Greetings, my beloved brothers! We have received a complete blessing from Divine Providence, namely, we have been relieved from all error and been united in a common confession of one and the same faith. (2.) The devil will no longer have any power against us, since all the schemes he in his hatred had devised for our destruction, have been entirely overthrown from their foundations. At the command of God, the splendor of truth has dissolved all the poisons so deadly to unity: dissensions, schisms, commotions, and the like. We all now worship the One by name, and continue to believe that he is the One God. (3.) In order to accomplish all of this, at God’s summoning I assembled a large number of bishops at the city of Nicaea, and I joined them in investigating the truth, though I am only one of you, who rejoices exceedingly in being your fellow-servant. (4.) All points which seemed ambiguous or could possibly lead to dissension have been discussed and accurately examined. May the Divine Majesty forgive the unfortunately huge number of the blasphemies which some were shamelessly uttering against the mighty Savior, our life and hope, as they declared and confessed things contrary to the divinely inspired Scriptures.

    (5.) More than three hundred bishops, remarkable for their moderation and intellectual keenness, were unanimous in their confirmation of one and the same faith, a faith which has arisen in agreement with the truths of the Law of God. Arius alone had been misled by the devil, and was found to be the only one set on promoting this unholy mischief, first among you, and afterwards among others as well. (6.) Let us therefore embrace that teaching which the Almighty has presented to us. Let us return to our beloved brothers from whom we have been separated by an irreverent servant of the devil. Let us eagerly come together as one common body with those who are our fellow members. (7.) This is fitting for such discernment, faith and holiness as yours, that you return to divine favor, since it has been proved that this error comes from a man who is an enemy of the truth.
    (8.) This ruling, made by the collective judgment of three hundred bishops, cannot be other than the doctrine of God, especially where the Holy Spirit has illuminated the divine will by placing it upon the minds of so many dignified persons. (9.) Therefore let no one sit on the fence or delay, but let everyone quickly return to the unquestionable path of duty, so that when I arrive among you (which will be as soon as possible), I may together with you return due thanks to God, who closely watches all things, for having revealed the pure faith, and for restoring to you that love for which you have prayed.
    May God protect you, beloved brothers.


    Translation from Socrates (NPNF2 vol. 2, pp. 13-4), adapted by AJW
  • [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13549.msg157953#msg157953 date=1342868707]

    Unfortunately, Constantine crept into the hymns of the Coptic Church recently in the 20th century. There is no evidence whatsoever, prior to this period, that he was a celebrated saint in the Church.

    I agree with you on this. I would be very interested in any evidence you have for the late additions to the psalmody, synaxarium, etc.


    I'm no expert, but a brief glance told me that Emperor Constantine is mentioned in Raphael Tuki's The Book of the Theotokias according to the rite of the month of Kiahk, which is dated 1784, in the Commemoration of the Saints.
  • [quote author=JG link=topic=13549.msg157968#msg157968 date=1342979266]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13549.msg157953#msg157953 date=1342868707]

    Unfortunately, Constantine crept into the hymns of the Coptic Church recently in the 20th century. There is no evidence whatsoever, prior to this period, that he was a celebrated saint in the Church.

    I agree with you on this. I would be very interested in any evidence you have for the late additions to the psalmody, synaxarium, etc.


    I'm no expert, but a brief glance told me that Emperor Constantine is mentioned in Raphael Tuki's The Book of the Theotokias according to the rite of the month of Kiahk, which is dated 1784, in the Commemoration of the Saints.


    We must have different versions of the same book. The one I have does not list him, the commemoration of saints starts on p.49 and ends p.55 with no mention of Constantine.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg157969#msg157969 date=1342983357]
    We must have different versions of the same book. The one I have does not list him, the commemoration of saints starts on p.49 and ends p.55 with no mention of Constantine.


    I don't have a physical copy of the book, only a PDF, but nevertheless the Commemoration runs from pg. 38-44, and the verse for King Constantine and his mother Helena is on pages 45-6. Below are the first two pages of the PDF, and then pages 45-6 with the verse turning overleaf.

    image

    image

    image

    image
  • I'd like to point out that Raphael Tuki is Coptic Catholic, not Coptic Orthodox. If you look at the last page, right after he gives the verse about King Constantine, you'll notice on the left margin a note that says ausanswpi ka;oliky. This means "If they are Catholic". In his Theotokia, the only patriarchs and bishops to be mentioned in the commemoration are Catholic bishops.

    I only mention this because Tuki's Theotokia really only proves that King Constantine is saint in the Catholic Church. It doesn't mean he is a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church (by this document only). It also doesn't conclusively prove that King Constantine is a saint in 17th century Coptic Catholic Church. It could be a copyist's addition. It is important to remember that analytical theory requires percise judgment.

    I think there are other early manuscripts that show Constantine was a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I'll check around.
  • I will reiterate that Constantine is not a saint in the OO Church. If he were such, then the dogma of accepting heretical baptism would be ok.

    The OO never accepts heretical baptisms, Constantine was Arian in his belief, was baptized by Arian and died as an Arian.
  • In my psalmody for kiahk form the sourian monastery he is listed in the commemoration. Also King Constantine, appeared to one of the monk fathers, i believe it was St Pishoy. so i believe that makes him a saint.
  • Tbh the fact that he is right at the end of the magma3 is very Suspicious
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13549.msg158001#msg158001 date=1343075230]
    In my psalmody for kiahk form the sourian monastery he is listed in the commemoration. Also King Constantine, appeared to one of the monk fathers, i believe it was St Pishoy. so i believe that makes him a saint.


    We cannot just believe any story .. We have to have definite source.
  • If the synaxarium is pretty good source i think were good
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13549.msg158022#msg158022 date=1343153337]
    If the synaxarium is pretty good source i think were good


    The Synexarium is not a dependable source as it contains many errors. Constantine happens to be one of those errors.

    There are current efforts to rewrite it.
  • The synaxarium may have errors but the stories arent just made up. Its not like they mistook one king and wrote the other. Clearly the story says that King Constantine appeared to Anba Bishoy. I also think that if he wasnt a saint, someone like HH or HE Anba Bishoy wouldnt have left it alone. So although you may raise an issue i think this is one of the times where were missing too much information to just come to a decision. And also the fact that on this site we keep discussing whose a saint who isnt and all this different stuff soon were going to have every saint become a heretic cuz of a statement here or there.

    Just want to add this letter from Constantine to the Church of Alexandria.

    Constantine Augustus, to the catholic church of the Alexandrians.
    (1.) Greetings, my beloved brothers! We have received a complete blessing from Divine Providence, namely, we have been relieved from all error and been united in a common confession of one and the same faith. (2.) The devil will no longer have any power against us, since all the schemes he in his hatred had devised for our destruction, have been entirely overthrown from their foundations. At the command of God, the splendor of truth has dissolved all the poisons so deadly to unity: dissensions, schisms, commotions, and the like. We all now worship the One by name, and continue to believe that he is the One God. (3.) In order to accomplish all of this, at God’s summoning I assembled a large number of bishops at the city of Nicaea, and I joined them in investigating the truth, though I am only one of you, who rejoices exceedingly in being your fellow-servant. (4.) All points which seemed ambiguous or could possibly lead to dissension have been discussed and accurately examined. May the Divine Majesty forgive the unfortunately huge number of the blasphemies which some were shamelessly uttering against the mighty Savior, our life and hope, as they declared and confessed things contrary to the divinely inspired Scriptures.

    (5.) More than three hundred bishops, remarkable for their moderation and intellectual keenness, were unanimous in their confirmation of one and the same faith, a faith which has arisen in agreement with the truths of the Law of God. Arius alone had been misled by the devil, and was found to be the only one set on promoting this unholy mischief, first among you, and afterwards among others as well. (6.) Let us therefore embrace that teaching which the Almighty has presented to us. Let us return to our beloved brothers from whom we have been separated by an irreverent servant of the devil. Let us eagerly come together as one common body with those who are our fellow members. (7.) This is fitting for such discernment, faith and holiness as yours, that you return to divine favor, since it has been proved that this error comes from a man who is an enemy of the truth.
    (8.) This ruling, made by the collective judgment of three hundred bishops, cannot be other than the doctrine of God, especially where the Holy Spirit has illuminated the divine will by placing it upon the minds of so many dignified persons. (9.) Therefore let no one sit on the fence or delay, but let everyone quickly return to the unquestionable path of duty, so that when I arrive among you (which will be as soon as possible), I may together with you return due thanks to God, who closely watches all things, for having revealed the pure faith, and for restoring to you that love for which you have prayed.
    May God protect you, beloved brothers.


    Translation from Socrates (NPNF2 vol. 2, pp. 13-4), adapted by AJW

    This document is very clear evidence to me that although he was baptised by an arian he had returned from the error of his ways. Whether he did things from his heart or for political i dont think we will ever find out. And i dont think that people are going to throw hymns in for him left and right.

    Like the bishops looked at Ondos because of linguistic mistakes and they kinda said dont say them in church. You think that they are just gonna leave the hymns for King Constantine there if he isnt a saint? The Synod, as i remember before the death of our beloved Pope, were going in great detail as to whether St Ephraim the Syrian is a saint and so many more people. So I really think that this matter is not something to be completely worried about. And if you really want to find out for sure, pray about it and see what God puts in ur heart. Maybe King Constantine will come himself and explain to you
  • It is a fact that he was a strong Arian, was baptized by an Arian. This is what we need to keep in mind as a historical fact.

    Based on this fact alone, he cannot be considered a saint in the Church no matter what legends may exist.
  • AT that point it was still one church there were no divisions. So if he confessed his sins and returned to the faith than he would not have to be rebaptized or anything. dont make this more complicated for no reason
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13549.msg158033#msg158033 date=1343171816]
    AT that point it was still one church there were no divisions. So if he confessed his sins and returned to the faith than he would not have to be rebaptized or anything. dont make this more complicated for no reason


    He was never baptized Orthodox. The first baptism he ever received was when he was on his deathbed. It was an Arian baptism. He died on the Arian belief.

  • Reading Pharaoh714's post on constantine's letter to the church of Alexandria he says, "Arius alone has been misled by the devil and was found to be the only one set on promoting this unholy mischief." Why would Constantine want to be baptised if this what he said?
  • [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13549.msg158036#msg158036 date=1343176046]

    Reading Pharaoh714's post on constantine's letter to the church of Alexandria he says, "Arius alone has been misled by the devil and was found to be the only one set on promoting this unholy mischief." Why would Constantine want to be baptised if this what he said?


    Constantine was swayed by the Arians later after the Council of Nicea to the point he exiled Pope Athanasius and kicked him while riding his horse.

  • Constantine was was suspect anyway, I think he got baptised on his death bed because his wife became pregnant with a much respected official. She pleaded with Constantine to forgive her and him and he did so not putting them to death. After a few years he reneged and had them killed, so all the sin he had done in his life he wanted forgiveness himself as he was in the differcult position of the transition of the old roman empire to one being brought to being a christen one. To use him as an example of baptism is not probably the best example as he was at the crux of the change and still held some of the old roman empire ways but he did bring the christen faith to europe.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13549.msg157985#msg157985 date=1343009702]
    I think there are other early manuscripts that show Constantine was a saint in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I'll check around.


    Found anything yet, Rem?
  • Constantine didn't bring the Christian faith to Europe. It was already here.

    Many of the early Fathers of the Church were all in Europe, such as St Justin Martyr, St Irenaeus of Lyons etc.

    The early martyrs of Britain all predate Constantine.
  • [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13549.msg158041#msg158041 date=1343183185]

    Constantine was was suspect anyway, I think he got baptised on his death bed because his wife became pregnant with a much respected official. She pleaded with Constantine to forgive her and him and he did so not putting them to death. After a few years he reneged and had them killed, so all the sin he had done in his life he wanted forgiveness himself as he was in the differcult position of the transition of the old roman empire to one being brought to being a christen one. To use him as an example of baptism is not probably the best example as he was at the crux of the change and still held some of the old roman empire ways but he did bring the christen faith to europe.


    We are not denying that he did good things but he also believe in Arianism and died in it.

    What concerns us here is his faith and baptism. If we accept him with his Arian belief and his Arian Baptism, then we do not care about what faith the baptism was done in, so long the one who baptized uttered the correct formula.

    This is the whole idea behind the fake canon 7 of the first council of Constantinople.

    Hypothetically, if we agree with heretical baptisms, then why do we reject the Nestorians, the Aryans, the Protestants who perform baptism. We do reject them because their baptism is done with the wrong faith.

    Baptism is not just a magical formula that when uttered would bring the baptized to Christ. Rather, baptism starts with the correct faith and seals the correct faith.

    So, baptism must be performed with the correct faith. Otherwise it is not baptism.

    With that said, the Coptic Church cannot accept Constantine as a saint because of his Arian baptism and his strong belief in Arianism.

  • I think I agree with you imikhail. Bishop Youssef clearly avoids calling him Saint in response to these questions, only "the Great".
    http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?catid=566

    Edit: something else, a Coptic Church calling him St (btw the tasbeha doesn't call him saint, only lord) - http://www.windsorcopts.com/index.php?p=2_7

  • I'm sorry Father Peter, you are right of course but he was seen as the emperor of the church bought about the ecumenical councils. I prefer to talk about the good he did and what he did for christianity than dwell too much on his past. He certainly had his past mingled with what he surposed to be as a christian, but he was a ruler in both domains. When I was younger I used to think it wasn't good having a polititian running the church, but thinking now, God did what was right in choosing him as a polititian knows how to organise and how to defend their position. This was exactly what was required with the fall of the roman empire and the oncoming dark ages.
  • [quote author=qawe link=topic=13549.msg158048#msg158048 date=1343203160]
    Edit: something else, a Coptic Church calling him St (btw the tasbeha doesn't call him saint, only lord) - http://www.windsorcopts.com/index.php?p=2_7

    does that mean Pashois eporo Georgios is not a saint?!
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13549.msg158050#msg158050 date=1343208631]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=13549.msg158048#msg158048 date=1343203160]
    Edit: something else, a Coptic Church calling him St (btw the tasbeha doesn't call him saint, only lord) - http://www.windsorcopts.com/index.php?p=2_7

    does that mean Pashois eporo Georgios is not a saint?!


    Mina,

    Any reference to Constantine, being a saint, is an error. We honor him as a promoter of Christianity but never as a saint in the context of asking his prayers or "intercessions"
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158054#msg158054 date=1343212069]
    Mina,

    Any reference to Constantine, being a saint, is an error. We honor him as a promoter of Christianity but never as a saint in the context of asking his prayers or "intercessions"

    In the commemoration, we are asking for his prayers and intercessions. It begins with "Pray to the Lord on our behalf". Sure you can ask a non-saint to pray to the Lord on our behalf, but by doing this you are claiming you believe the person you are asking to intercede for you has a parousia (favor) with the Lord. But at the very least, it is completely contradictory to ask a heretic to pray to the Lord on your behalf because it denies the authority of the Church to condemn sinners given by Christ in John 20:23 and it makes you a partaker of the heresy violating Ephesians 5:11.  If King Constantine is a heretic, we are all guilty of heresy when we ask for his intercessions.
  • I wouldn't give too much credence to the term 'Dark Ages'. The Church in the West was at its most brilliant in many regards after the fall of the Roman Empire.

    Certainly the churches in the British Isles reached their height in the period after the Roman Empire.

    It is a term created by Victorian historians who couldn't imagine anything good apart from the Roman Empire.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158054#msg158054 date=1343212069]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13549.msg158050#msg158050 date=1343208631]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=13549.msg158048#msg158048 date=1343203160]
    Edit: something else, a Coptic Church calling him St (btw the tasbeha doesn't call him saint, only lord) - http://www.windsorcopts.com/index.php?p=2_7

    does that mean Pashois eporo Georgios is not a saint?!


    Mina,

    Any reference to Constantine, being a saint, is an error. We honor him as a promoter of Christianity but never as a saint in the context of asking his prayers or "intercessions"

    well....since you called me out, the question was a sarcastic one not to be taken seriously. i was of playing with words then stating a fact.

    now my opinion, i think i am more annoyed of how "absolute" this is even thought that is a conclusion that you are drawing a NOT facts that are set stone.
    PLEASE DO NOT repeat yourself and try to convince me of anything......i am not even following this post and it doesn't look like anything is gonna convince you either even if an angel came from heaven and confirmed it to you.....ezz kan you just ignored JG's source of Tuki's psalmody as he provided the pics as it was nothing.....i am not really to waste precious time I can sleep instead.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13549.msg158056#msg158056 date=1343218707]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158054#msg158054 date=1343212069]
    Mina,

    Any reference to Constantine, being a saint, is an error. We honor him as a promoter of Christianity but never as a saint in the context of asking his prayers or "intercessions"

    In the commemoration, we are asking for his prayers and intercessions. It begins with "Pray to the Lord on our behalf". Sure you can ask a non-saint to pray to the Lord on our behalf, but by doing this you are claiming you believe the person you are asking to intercede for you has a parousia (favor) with the Lord. But at the very least, it is completely contradictory to ask a heretic to pray to the Lord on your behalf because it denies the authority of the Church to condemn sinners given by Christ in John 20:23 and it makes you a partaker of the heresy violating Ephesians 5:11.  If King Constantine is a heretic, we are all guilty of heresy when we ask for his intercessions.


    That is exactly my point.

    Constantine should not be recited in any manner as a saint.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13549.msg158058#msg158058 date=1343221161]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158054#msg158054 date=1343212069]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13549.msg158050#msg158050 date=1343208631]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=13549.msg158048#msg158048 date=1343203160]
    Edit: something else, a Coptic Church calling him St (btw the tasbeha doesn't call him saint, only lord) - http://www.windsorcopts.com/index.php?p=2_7

    does that mean Pashois eporo Georgios is not a saint?!


    Mina,

    Any reference to Constantine, being a saint, is an error. We honor him as a promoter of Christianity but never as a saint in the context of asking his prayers or "intercessions"

    well....since you called me out, the question was a sarcastic one not to be taken seriously. i was of playing with words then stating a fact.

    now my opinion, i think i am more annoyed of how "absolute" this is even thought that is a conclusion that you are drawing a NOT facts that are set stone.
    PLEASE DO NOT repeat yourself and try to convince me of anything......i am not even following this post and it doesn't look like anything is gonna convince you either even if an angel came from heaven and confirmed it to you.....ezz kan you just ignored JG's source of Tuki's psalmody as he provided the pics as it was nothing.....i am not really to waste precious time I can sleep instead.


    In the coming years you will notice his name be withdrawn from the Church's prayers. This is in accordance with the holy synod.
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