Communion Rooms

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Does anyone have information on the origin of Communion rooms as an architectural feature of Coptic Churches?

In Butler's "The Ancient Coptic Churches of Egypt", he surveys many ancient Churches, and none of them have Communion rooms. They all have three sanctuaries, with three altars, but none of them have communion rooms beside those sanctuaries.

When I asked about this I was told that Communion rooms are a new architectural feature. I was told that traditionally, Communion was administered in the Nave, hence the ornate semi-domed stands for holding the patin found in many Churches.

Looking at the old Church in Mississauga, it has 5 doors at the front, 3 in front of altars, and 2 going into communion rooms at the side. The bigger Church attached to it only had 3 doors at the front, all with altars, and Communion is administered in the nave.

One theory put forward for their development was the incorrect practice that H.H. Pope Shenouda III wrote against, of laymen, not dressed, communing inside. In fact, I think Leeder, in his "Modern Sons of the Pharaohs", encountered a practise in the 1800's where men Communed in the Sanctuary while women were communed in the Nave. So the theory was that perhaps everyone communing behind the curtain, but in communion rooms of to the side was a less corrupt compromise to reduce this practise.

But imikhail posted recently that Communion rooms date back to the 4th century, or earlier. I would be interested in seeing evidence of this, and how it compares to the evidence from Butler against them being an ancient feature.

I am not trying to start a fight, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. I am just curious what the ancient practise is, and how modern the current practise is because of clues that gives to other practices relating to the minor orders, and the general order of the Church.

Comments

  • There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.
  • [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157931#msg157931 date=1342807757]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.


    Churches like Saints Segius and Wachus (Abu Serga), The old church of Saint  Antony monastery, St Mary in Old Cairo (the hanging church) and others.

    The books would refer to it as the  Dar (literally house) but it really means a  room.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157933#msg157933 date=1342808678]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157931#msg157931 date=1342807757]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.


    Churches like Saints Segius and Wachus (Abu Serga), The old church of Saint  Antony monastery, St Mary in Old Cairo (the hanging church) and others.

    The books would refer to it as the  Dar (literally house) but it really means a  room.


    Thank you,

    Looking at an image of the hanging Church for example:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PQuEkeGNKYY/TP7A5ytY0jI/AAAAAAAAA0c/wgRSRECnzaY/s1600/IMG_2597.JPG
    There are three curtains up front in three isles. Are these three sanctuaries, or one sanctuary with two communion rooms? If three sanctuaries, are the communion rooms off to the side somewhere?

    Do you know why the rites refer to them though? Like can you give an example of a rite that mentions them? I'm just curious what the rites would have to say about them.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157933#msg157933 date=1342808678]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157931#msg157931 date=1342807757]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.


    Churches like Saints Segius and Wachus (Abu Serga), The old church of Saint  Antony monastery, St Mary in Old Cairo (the hanging church) and others.

    The books would refer to it as the  Dar (literally house) but it really means a  room.


    Which Church at St. Antony's monastery is the old one? The Church of St. Antony? "monastic visions" lists that as "the historic core of the monastery", and provides a site plan of the Church that indicates three sanctuaries, a choir, and a nave. I don't see any additional Communion rooms. Is there a different "old Church" there that has these? Is the placement or structure of the rooms different than what we have today?

  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157933#msg157933 date=1342808678]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157931#msg157931 date=1342807757]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.


    Churches like Saints Segius and Wachus (Abu Serga), The old church of Saint  Antony monastery, St Mary in Old Cairo (the hanging church) and others.

    The books would refer to it as the  Dar (literally house) but it really means a  room.


    Is the Church of St. Sergius you mention the same one found starting on page 75, and especially depicted on pages 184-185 of Butler: http://ia700304.us.archive.org/24/items/ancientcopticchu01butliala/ancientcopticchu01butliala.pdf ?

    In that plan I see three sanctuaries with three altars, but I cannot see anything resembling Communion rooms as I know them. Is this the wrong Church? I'm just trying to find an example from the ones you mentioned, but it is hard with the resources available!
  • [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157938#msg157938 date=1342810955]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157933#msg157933 date=1342808678]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157931#msg157931 date=1342807757]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.


    Churches like Saints Segius and Wachus (Abu Serga), The old church of Saint  Antony monastery, St Mary in Old Cairo (the hanging church) and others.

    The books would refer to it as the  Dar (literally house) but it really means a  room.


    Is the Church of St. Sergius you mention the same one found starting on page 75, and especially depicted on pages 184-185 of Butler: http://ia700304.us.archive.org/24/items/ancientcopticchu01butliala/ancientcopticchu01butliala.pdf ?

    In that plan I see three sanctuaries with three altars, but I cannot see anything resembling Communion rooms as I know them. Is this the wrong Church? I'm just trying to find an example from the ones you mentioned, but it is hard with the resources available!


    This is Abu Sefein. Church of Abu Serga can be found here:
    http://www.ask-aladdin.com/Egypt-Sites/Coptic-Monuments/abuserga.html
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157943#msg157943 date=1342814377]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157938#msg157938 date=1342810955]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157933#msg157933 date=1342808678]
    [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13547.msg157931#msg157931 date=1342807757]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13547.msg157930#msg157930 date=1342804590]
    There are allusions in the writing of Hypolytos.

    Ancient churches dating back to the 4th century have this architecture.

    Middle ages ritual manuscripts giving instructions allude to these rooms.


    Thanks imikhail, do you know off hand of a few examples of such ancient Churches? Can you think of an example of what in the rites refers to them? I am just curious about this.


    Churches like Saints Segius and Wachus (Abu Serga), The old church of Saint  Antony monastery, St Mary in Old Cairo (the hanging church) and others.

    The books would refer to it as the  Dar (literally house) but it really means a  room.


    Is the Church of St. Sergius you mention the same one found starting on page 75, and especially depicted on pages 184-185 of Butler: http://ia700304.us.archive.org/24/items/ancientcopticchu01butliala/ancientcopticchu01butliala.pdf ?

    In that plan I see three sanctuaries with three altars, but I cannot see anything resembling Communion rooms as I know them. Is this the wrong Church? I'm just trying to find an example from the ones you mentioned, but it is hard with the resources available!


    This is Abu Sefein. Church of Abu Serga can be found here:
    http://www.ask-aladdin.com/Egypt-Sites/Coptic-Monuments/abuserga.html


    Thank you. I really appreciate the help. But it is hard to see anything from that picture. The description says:


    The Church takes the shape of a basilica with a narthex, a nave, and 2 aisles, which are separated from the nave by 12 columns with Corinthian capitals, 10 of stone, one of marble and one of rosette granite. There are 3 Sanctuaries on the east side; each Sanctuary contains an altar, with a wooden dome, supported by 4 marble columns.

    http://www.copticarchitecture.com/arc/heritage/serga.htm

    Is the structure that there is a Sanctuary with a door and an altar in the center, and in each side aisle? If so, where are the Communion rooms? Are there 5 doors at the front?

    Page. 184-5 of Butler says "Abu Sargah (St. Serguis)_Old Cairo". Is it just mislabelled and is really Abu Sefein?
  • It's confusing to reference page numbers in PDF's which may not match, so I'll just put images here to make it easier to make sure I'm pointing to the right image :) :

    Is this the Church of St. Sergius you mentioned, or a different one, or Abu Sefin mislabelled?
    image

    Is this the hanging Church?
    image

    If either of them are the Churches you mentioned, do these plans show the Communion rooms you mentioned? If not, do the plans match reality? Thanks.
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