question of an outsider of orthodoxy

what are the differences between coptic orthodoxy and eastern orthodoxy??

Comments

  • I will leave the questions for the more experienced members on the page. Here are some short videos:

    Introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Church

    Part 1:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vrPIOOBU18
    Part 2:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk_ejeeEwJ0&feature=relmfu

    Documentary


    Coptic Orthodox Church



    Also, pray for God's guidance that your salvation may be the end result.
  • Welcome Antonio Vicente Marin, beautiful name!  :)

    God bless you and guide you.
  • ok, i will try to answer, u have many questions and it will take more than a few answers to get a good response.
    1. if u change to become orthodox, u should follow God's leading. He has a purpose for yr life and will show u where to go. the oriental orthodox ('miaphysite') and eastern orthodox (chalcedonian) churches are very similar. there have been some disagreements over the centuries, but we are working towards unity.
    see: http://orthodoxunity.org

    2. the canon of the coptic church is all the laws that were ever made, many of which don't apply to our time. very few people know all of them, u need to study for many years to understand it.
    our beliefs are summarised in the nicene-constantinopolitan creed:
    http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed

    3. the apostolic constitutions is a good book that helps us to understand things about the early church. it helps us understand some of our traditions.

    4. catholics who join orthodox churches are chrismated, not rebaptised, so the sacrements are considered valid. we just disagree with a few teachings (immaculate conception of mary, purgatory (although we do pray for the dead) and papal infallibility being the main ones).
    so we don't allow orthodox people to take holy communion in a catholic church except in special occasions (catholic/orthodox marriages, for example).

    5. our 'hardcore' fasting  ;) is extremely useful in helping us develop a good relationship with God.

    6. each one fasts as much as he or she can, under the guidance of the priest. most people keep most fasts, although some only fast during lent. people who are becoming orthodox or who have not grown up fasting do it gradually, eg they might abstain from meat but still eat dairy products. the main purpose in fasting is to pray more and dedicate time to one's spiritual life (Holy Communion, prayer, working on having a good character, Bible study etc). also during the fasts we try to give money to the poor and to speak about our faith with people we meet. priests, of course are better at fasting and monks fast more strictly. there are no rules set in stone, so things may vary from place to place.

    7. we have 2 sorts of priests; celibate priests (who are usually monks) and married priests. if someone is called to be a priest (by God), he needs to first get married, or make a vow of celibacy.

    8. the 'mood' in our services is that we try hard not to rely on our emotions or moods when we worship God. God deserves our praise and adoration whether we feel like it or not. so we focus on the words of the prayers and on God's greatness and give Him praise. the fasting, the icons, the incense and the peaceful chanting all help us to do this. sometimes we have to ignore our emotions because we are too much affected by the week we had or the world around us. sometimes we are blessed with moments of deep peace and intimacy with God.

    hope this helps, may God bless u and please pray for us too.
    mabsoota (it means 'happy')
    :)
  • edited June 2014
    Thanks for your time¡¡


  • ah, ok.
    it is basically the same as the catholic one. i think we have maccabees 4 which u guys don't have. but u have wisdom of sirach and tobias and judith and the extra bits of daniel, so u are ok in this matter.
    here is more info:
    http://orthodoxstudybible.com/uploads/BibleBooksChart.pdf
  • [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13401.msg156839#msg156839 date=1339876664]
    ah, ok.
    it is basically the same as the catholic one. i think we have maccabees 4 which u guys don't have. but u have wisdom of sirach and tobias and judith and the extra bits of daniel, so u are ok in this matter.
    here is more info:
    http://orthodoxstudybible.com/uploads/BibleBooksChart.pdf


    We also have Ps 151, used on Joyous Saturday.
  • oh, i forgot the catholics don't have that.
    poor them.
    here it is, for the catholics / protestants / anyone else missing out!
    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4563162


    Ps151.1

    [2] My hands made a harp,
    my fingers fashioned a lyre.

    [3] And who will declare it to my Lord?
    The Lord himself; it is he who hears.

    [4] It was he who sent his messenger
    and took me from my father's sheep,
    and anointed me with his anointing oil.

    [5] My brothers were handsome and tall,
    but the Lord was not pleased with them.

    [6] I went out to meet the Philistine,
    and he cursed me by his idols.

    [7] But I drew his own sword;
    I beheaded him, and removed reproach from
    the people of Israel.
  • [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13401.msg156906#msg156906 date=1340050744]
    oh, i forgot the catholics don't have that.
    poor them.
    here it is, for the catholics / protestants / anyone else missing out!
    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4563162


    Ps151.1

    [1] I was small among my brothers,
    and the youngest in my father’s house;
    I tended my father’s sheep.


    [2] My hands made a harp,
    my fingers fashioned a lyre.

    [3] And who will declare it to my Lord?
    The Lord himself; it is he who hears.

    [4] It was he who sent his messenger
    and took me from my father's sheep,
    and anointed me with his anointing oil.

    [5] My brothers were handsome and tall,
    but the Lord was not pleased with them.

    [6] I went out to meet the Philistine,
    and he cursed me by his idols.

    [7] But I drew his own sword;
    I beheaded him, and removed reproach from
    the people of Israel.


    you left out verse 1, I added it above
  • thanks, i couldn't find it online, and it was getting late.
    God bless u and all of egypt.
  • hi Antonio  :)

    you are very welcome here! bienvenido!

    - which church to join? i am a Coptic Orthodox Christian and i love my church very much.  it has much beauty and depth and i believe our teachings and traditions are good and Christ-like.  we have tried to keep the Church and the Faith as our Lord Jesus gave it to His Apostles.  i really believe it is orthodox and true.  ofcourse we have our faults.. as a congregation we r not as tuneful or organised as other churches, but we have a lot of heart and a lovely Christian community.  we r part of the Oriental Orthodox churches and we all have the same Christology and Theology and core traditions.  i also think there is very little difference between us and the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Although we are not in communion yet, when i enter an Eastern Orthodox church and meet Eastern Orthodox Christians i see no important differences between us.

    - our fasts don't really separate us out, it is a personal thing and each person does what they are able to do with the guidance of our spiritual fathers.  Even though i was brought up in the church i am still not fasting every single fast yet.  we r conscious that it is the heart that matters and that fasting can help draw us closer to God but must be accompanied by charitable deeds and prayer, otherwise its just a change of diet really.  Many Coptic parishioners fast the great fasts and some fast wednesdays and fridays too (in commemoration of Christ's betrayal by Judas on wednesday and His Crucifixion of friday).  Monks have stricter fasting usually, with plainer foods and longer periods of abstinence from food. Not too sure about priests (probably somewhere in the middle, fasting all the fasts of the church but without the tougher fasting that the monks do). 

    - if u are married before the sacrament of Priesthood then you stay married as a priest.  if you are not married before you have the sacrament of Priesthood then you must remain celibate.  I believe this was decided at the First Ecumenical Council, where an elderly and respected bishop, St Paphnutius the Confesser who had been tortured for his faith in Christ and who had lived a celibate life advised the council not to lay the additional burden of celibacy on priests if they wanted to be married. 

    sorry i did not answer your other questions, i was not sure of the answers.
    God bless you  :)

  • edited June 2014
    what about fasting?? should i fast??
  • hi antonio,
    there are beautiful old traditions of fasting in the catholic church.
    follow these (you can find out about it on the internet or in libraries) and discuss it with your priest or other person in your church who loves God.
    then, if this is not enough, u can think of the other orthodox fasting traditions.
    mabsoota
  • Hi Mabsoota,

    4. catholics who join orthodox churches are chrismated, not rebaptised, so the sacrements are considered valid. we just disagree with a few teachings (immaculate conception of mary, purgatory (although we do pray for the dead) and papal infallibility being the main ones).
    so we don't allow orthodox people to take holy communion in a catholic church except in special occasions (catholic/orthodox marriages, for example).

    I don't know if there is still confusion in the Coptic Church over rebaptism of Catholics. Before I was rebaptized in 1996, there was some local confusion in Southern U.S. (and probably in other localities). I was told by my bishop that this was necessary because of the erratic nature of Catholic baptisms, rites and beliefs. Catholic feminists, for example were baptizing in the name of mother god, mother earth, etc, etc. Antonio may be experiencing some of this same confusion. I questioned rebaptism, but really wanted to to leave my modern Catholic experiences as far behind as possible. I had been chrismated (like all other "christians" of every ilk) Eastern Orthodox for several years. Then I learned that this modern Eastern Orthodox reception by chrismation is another political expedient (economia). Orthodox Baptism is not a simple, one minute, procedure. I am grateful that I was accepted into the Coptic Church at a time when rebaptism (really first Orthodox Baptism) was required. I sincerely hope that this blessing is still required for conversion to Coptic Orthodox. I was (and still am) a spiritual wreck, but then, and now, I sense that it put this broken down spiritual wreck, little by little, on the straight tracks toward more and more communion with God and His Church. At the time of my Baptism, a local family had been received into the Coptic Church by chrismation. As I understand the story, they weren't satisfied that they had been properly changed, and insisted on "rebaptism." As I became more familiar with Copts, I was very disappointed to hear naive Copts declare, We are just like the Catholics. I was judgmental if I disagreed. To many, you must accept untruth, to avoid : Judge not. In the early centuries, the Roman Christians had Orthodox beliefs, like we have now. We were all the one church. You can now find pretty much any fringe that you want in the Catholic Church. For example: http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests.org/index.php. Believe it or not.

    You have surely received your information from trusted sources, but I have different information and experience. Antonio seems to seek the straight story. I'm not sure what that is now. I recommend that all Copts who were received by chrismation, pray and think deeply about seeking Orthodox Holy Baptism.

    Striving to increase the degree of my fasting is beneficial in every way. I didn't think that I could live out the day without bacon and eggs for breakfast. Fasting made me learn that I'm better off in every way if I never eat another bacon or egg, etc, etc. Foul and injera, is the staff of life, and fasting.

    I don't mean any offense, but I hope it will help all of us to know the full, and hopefully final "rule"/ "law" on this important issue of Holy Baptism.

    Thanks for your generous answer, for all of us, to antonio.     
  • It is not possible to convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church, it is only possible to convert to the Orthodox Church of Christ.

    There are not many churches, there is only one Orthodox Church. It is important to always insist on this.
  • edited June 2014
    what about rebaptizing??
  • Posted by: Father Peter
    « on: June 23, 2012, 11:48:55 AM » Insert Quote
    It is not possible to convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church, it is only possible to convert to the Orthodox Church of Christ.

    There are not many churches, there is only one Orthodox Church. It is important to always insist on this.

    Hi, Father Peter,

    Please bless my misunderstanding of your statements with an explanation of your meaning. Thank you. Please remember me when you pray.
  • Hi Antonio,

    Re: question of an outsider of orthodoxy
    « Reply #15 on: June 23, 2012, 02:45:03 PM »
    Quote
    Quote from: irishpilgrim on June 23, 2012, 11:18:04 AM

    I don't know if there is still confusion in the Coptic Church over rebaptism of Catholics. Before I was rebaptized in 1996, there was some local confusion in Southern U.S. (and probably in other localities). I was told by my bishop that this was necessary because of the erratic nature of Catholic baptisms, rites and beliefs.

    Thanks for your time, but, about this topic, one of my questions was: What´s the official point of view about catholic sacraments of coptic church? (His Holiness Pope Shenouda III was the president of the ecumenical council of churches)

    I don't know the official view that you are seeking. I personally even think that Orthodox official participation in ecumenical organizations is problematic. Of course HH Pope Shenouda apparently didn't agree with my thoughts in this regard. I was commenting on my experience regarding Mabsoota's statement that Catholics are received into the Coptic Church by chrismation. I would surmise that official Coptic questioning of my Catholic baptism would signify that all Catholic (similarly named) sacraments are likewise suspect, as being heterodox. Except at a very simple, superficial level, I do not believe that Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics now have the same essential faith and practice.

    "Striving to increase the degree of my fasting is beneficial in every way. I didn't think that I could live out the day without bacon and eggs for breakfast. Fasting made me learn that I'm better off in every way if I never eat another bacon or egg, etc, etc. Foul and injera, is the staff of life, and fasting."

    Well, I dont need any rule of fasting for not having breakfast and not eating bacon and eggs, but the aim of fasting is not striving of lacking of a king of food, but the purpose of the increasing of spirituality, at least that i understood reading the book "the spirituality of fasting" of His Holiness Shenouda III

    I experienced the same struggles, as I feel you are encountering, when I first tried to obtain an Orthodox understanding and life, from the Catholic point of view that I had lived since my youth. No one answered my questions in the way that I expected them to be answered. Orthodox had, at least, a slightly different twist on nearly everything. There are also fewer "canned" standard answers, everyone had their own explanation. This offended me because I had been taught that my Catholic understanding was that of the one, true, apostolic, .... church of god. And, my understanding was based upon the simple, question and answer, Baltimore Catechism. There are several broad and deep summaries of Orthodox beliefs, but not one, ever changing, exhaustive OFFICIAL CATECHISM OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH OF CHRIST, like the Catholic counterparts.

    My personal physical and spiritual aspects seem to be complementary. Striving toward Coptic fasting "rules" has greatly (far from completely) sharpened my spiritual sensitivity and alertness. As a life long observant Catholic (finally no fasting "rule") these had practically atrophied. Excuse my additional answer to a question that you didn't ask.

    God grant that your inquiries serve His Will, and help all of us.


  • We become members of Christ's body when we become Orthodox Christians. This one body is not divided into different Churches. These exist only for local administrative purposes. There is only one Church and it is this we are united to when we are received into the Orthodox Church.

    In Christ there is truly no division into Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Indian or Syrian. These are accidental and not essential categories.
  • edited June 2014
    it´s great the greatness of orthodoxy¡¡
  • [quote author=Antonio Vicente Marín link=topic=13401.msg157200#msg157200 date=1340917915]
    About sacraments, maybe i´m too latin, because for me the main issue about validity of sacraments is legality; a sacrament is valid when the priest in law performs the sacraments with the legal words and the appropiate materials, careless of the faith of the priest, but i also realize that those ceremonies, with that music, are unsuitable for the heart.

    On the other hand, I see that in orthodoxy (apparently) there are not so much modernism not in the cathecism not in the sacraments, but i see disunity between orthodox churches. I think about fasting. but what fasting? coptic fasting, ethiopian fasting, russian fasting... I´m spanish¡¡ I mean, i´m not a lackey of other countries, so in the end i remain as i was, and I twist again to protestantism, and after to roman catholicism, and after to orthodoxy, so, at least, i think i´m a christian traditionalism, until i discover good arguments.


    You need not allow something like fasting to keep you from Orthodox. Orthodoxy is a spiritual discipline, not a matter of doctrine. Different Orthodox traditions, developing in different Orthodox lands developed slight differences in practise, appropriate to their culture and history (for example, the fast of Nineveh originated in Syria, for obvious reasons). But this is not something uniform even in the Roman Catholic Church. Fasting on Fridays during lent is stricter in the U.S.A. than it is in Canada, because the bishops of those two lands made slightly different pastoral decisions for their people.

    Should you adopt Coptic fasting, Ethiopian, or another? Not necessarily. You should find a priest, who is able to guide you. And that priest should set a rule for you. You may whole heartedly adopt a tradition since you are from a land that lacks a mature Orthodox tradition. Or you may not. You may never work up to fasting all the days and hours that a Copt, trained to do so from childhood is able to do. Your confessor may give you a much laxer rule, and yet it may be a greater sacrifice since you aren't trained for it. Over time, you will then be able to work up.

    In time, when enough people from these lands become Orthodox, and when the grandchildren of immigrants become less attached to the homeland of their ancestors, then a consistent tradition can develop throughout each land, as has been the historic norm. In the mean time, we shouldn't feel that joining an Orthodox Church is becoming the lackey of another country. We should be grateful to those who are willing to share authentic, ancient Orthodox traditions with us in lands where we have none. Yes, there are serious problems with different traditions overlapping and operating as if they were separate. But there are historic reasons why this abnormality has arisen. If you look on the OCA website, they put it right on their homepage: http://oca.org/questions/namerica/orthodox-unity-in-north-america . This unusual situation doesn't take away from the truth of Orthodoxy, or its ability to heal you if you seek spiritual remedies from her.
  • If a catholic, or a anglican, converts to orthodoxy, what branch of orthodoxy should he choose? myaphysite, chalcedonian, or any of both? In a focused branch, what specific patriarchade?

    The right faith to choose is the Orthodox faith, as it is the purest form of Christianity, without man-made changes or reforms implemented for political reasons. However, we must understand that the mentality of a Western man in the developped world is different from the mantality prevailing in Orthodox countries. The Western man is extremely rationalistic and skeptical. It is for this reason that Western people should read as much as they can from approved texts about the faith and have the guidance of a priest who can answer all his questions. You should also try to experience Orthodoxy yourself and ask God to make you take a right decision and choose the right Church for you. As a Latin-American, I recommend you to find a home in Oriental Orthodoxy, as you will not be restricted by the "political nationalism" of some Eastern Orthodox churches.

    What´s the canon of the coptic church?

    It is my understanding that the Canon of the Coptic Orrthodox Church is exactly that of the Old Latin Vulgate or the Russian Orthodox version (the Catholic Bible + The Prayer of Manase and Maccabees 3). One of the best Spanish-speaking versions of the Bible is the "Nueva Version Española", it is poetic and beautiful. Nacar-Colunga is also good in case you want exact translation from the Greek sources. "Nueva Version Internacional - Dios habla hoy" is good if you need a simple-language version, however, it lacks the strenght of the previous versions.

    What´s the official point of view about catholic sacraments of coptic church (His Holiness Pope Shenouda III was the president of the ecumenical council of churches)

    The World Council of Churches does not include the Roman Catholic Church. It is my understanding that the Coptic Church views the Roman Catholic Church as having Apostolic Succesion, a valid but imperfect Church because of the many changes in doctrine and practice that the Roman leaders implemented because of political reasons. This is the reason why the Coptic Church is stricter than other Orthodox Churches in baptizing Catholics who join the Church: sacraments are a very serious issue and no compromise can be made or otherwise the Orrthodox people would gradually be used to the man-made reforms of other denominations, leading them to a loss of faith.

    Do no the hardcore coptic rules of fasting worth only to segregate "chosen" people of heathens, or also to increase the faith and love for God´s rules?

    Fasting is a matter of personal faith and does not mean that you have to be segregated from others. On the contrary, fasting has no public place in the Church, it is a personal issue. Otherwise we would be like the Pharisee who made his fasting public to humiliate the Publican.

    Coptic priests have the duty to be married?

    There are monastic priests who are celibate and unmarried, and there are also priuests who were married before their ordination and who can become priests but not bishops.

    What is the mood in coptic services? is it inspirating, or maybe sometimes boring? (as many times in roman catholic eucharist?

    The Coptic liturgy is very participatory, there are many responses by the people and you can follow your missal very easily. People from a Catholic (Novus Ordo) background adapt easily to Coptic Orthodox liturgy as there are many points of contact. People from a Traditional Catholic (Old Latin Mass) background can also feel well because of the solemn and conservative spirit in the Coptic liturgy.
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