Oouniatk

pp
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Dear all,
Is there a legit recording of Oouniatk from Good Friday anywhere? Is there possibly a copy recorded by M3alem Mikhaeel or M3alem Tawfik? Please send it over if you do!
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Comments

  • there isn't.
  • The real question is are the only legitimate hymns the ones recorded by M. Mikhail or M. Tawfik? Or is it possible that other lesser known cantors recorded hymns that these two did not and these recordings are "legitimate"?

    I think M. Mikhail is the gold standard. But it's not the exclusive standard. Nor do I think there is such a thing as an illegitimate hymn.
  • There is a difference between hymns and spiritual songs. Spiritual songs are not liturgical .. hymns are. It is not proper for anyone to come up with a hymn, borrow a hymn from another Church and start chanting it as if it part of our Church heritage.

    Everything in the Church has a source and is handed down from generation to the next. This is what makes a hymn legitimate.
  • Ekhrestos anesty
    Very well said imikhail.. thanks for that
    Oujai
  • There is more than one recording of Ooniatk.

    Muallim Zaher recorded the first two verses of Ooniatk. The recording I heard of him chanting it stops there and he does not continue with the Paralex.

    There is another recording, according to Albair Mikhail, by Muallim Wadi3 Il-qummus Matta. The lyrics that Muallim Wadi3 uses are different than what is written in the books. I have heard the recording. Albair opines that the fact that Muallim Wadi3 uses different lyrics than what is written supports the notion that Muallim Wadi3 did not create the tune.

    Albair and the Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Church have recorded Ooniatk based on the tune that Muallim Wadi3 uses but not with his lyrics.
  • SWMSANMG,
    If possible, can you send me the one form Mo3alem Zaher? [email protected]

    Everyone else,
    I didn't mean the hymn itself, I meant the tune. Of course the hymn is legitimate, but the tune may or may not be (especially in this case when there are at least 4 or 5 schools of teaching yet there originally was 1 tune for this hymn, not 4 or 5...). Sorry for the confusion due to my lack of diction.

    I have heard Albair's, but I disagree with the lyrics he uses, you should not modify the lyrics of an original hymn to "correct grammar" when they know the language better than we do.
  • Ekhrestos anesty
    Thank you thank you thank you aem581
    Oujai
  • I thinkt here is a recording of someone from Tanta where they take the way of mWade' and rakebha on the text we have in books.
  • Three ways for Ooniatk are being taught, HCOC's way with different words, Abouna Asheya al Moharaqqi (different tune in the first verse), M. Zaher or whoever in Tanta (different texts than M. Wadie's version).  All differing from the original recording of M. Wadie al Qummus Matta.

    "It is not proper for anyone to come up with a hymn, borrow a hymn from another Church and start chanting it as if it part of our Church heritage...Everything in the Church has a source and is handed down from generation to the next. " So then, according to some here, all these "new" recordings/teachings are illegitimate. How do we know M. Wadie al Qummus Matta didn't come up with they hymn? If he did then his recording is also illegitimate. Then we have no source for this hymn and, subsequently, not everything in our church has a source that is handed down. But then again, regardless of the recordings or source, we can conclude as fact that the hymn is Pharaonic.

    But what do I know. I'm told I complicate things.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13245.msg155150#msg155150 date=1335912298]
    Three ways for Ooniatk are being taught, HCOC's way with different words, Abouna Asheya al Moharaqqi (different tune in the first verse), M. Zaher or whoever in Tanta (different texts than M. Wadie's version).  All differing from the original recording of M. Wadie al Qummus Matta.

    "It is not proper for anyone to come up with a hymn, borrow a hymn from another Church and start chanting it as if it part of our Church heritage...Everything in the Church has a source and is handed down from generation to the next. " So then, according to some here, all these "new" recordings/teachings are illegitimate. How do we know M. Wadie al Qummus Matta didn't come up with they hymn? If he did then his recording is also illegitimate. Then we have no source for this hymn and, subsequently, not everything in our church has a source that is handed down. But then again, regardless of the recordings or source, we can conclude as fact that the hymn is Pharaonic.

    But what do I know. I'm told I complicate things.


    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155151#msg155151 date=1335913230]
    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.

    but how do you know whihc is a source and which is not?! our hymns are not written in books and only very little of the ways they are chanted in are included in books.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13245.msg155155#msg155155 date=1335913885]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155151#msg155151 date=1335913230]
    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.

    but how do you know whihc is a source and which is not?! our hymns are not written in books and only very little of the ways they are chanted in are included in books.


    Our hymns are handed down. I have stated the history of hymn in other discussions.

    Basically, any hymn that does not have a source is an invention. Any cantor that cannot come up with the source he learned  the hymn from cannot claim authenticity.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155157#msg155157 date=1335914137]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13245.msg155155#msg155155 date=1335913885]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155151#msg155151 date=1335913230]
    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.

    but how do you know whihc is a source and which is not?! our hymns are not written in books and only very little of the ways they are chanted in are included in books.


    Our hymns are handed down. I have stated the history of hymn in other discussions.

    most of the time you refer to written text.....which are the ones that included above.....example:
    The commentary of bright saturday is to be chanted in Chi-oi-oinee tune because it says so in a book. how do i know the chi-o-oinee tune? the khidmit shamas of nahdet elkanaies says that it is like tarh elfa3alla of kiahk. where can i get that? we have it recorded

    The above is an example of what i may call 'a valid' source because it is backed up by the text and the oral tradition.

    Other things you include in in discussion, we request a source....and when we have another source, you simply disregard ours. than where are we now?! NO WHERE simply because you ask us to trust specific ppl than do the research.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13245.msg155158#msg155158 date=1335914746]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155157#msg155157 date=1335914137]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13245.msg155155#msg155155 date=1335913885]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155151#msg155151 date=1335913230]
    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.

    but how do you know whihc is a source and which is not?! our hymns are not written in books and only very little of the ways they are chanted in are included in books.


    Our hymns are handed down. I have stated the history of hymn in other discussions.

    most of the time you refer to written text.....which are the ones that included above.....example:
    The commentary of bright saturday is to be chanted in Chi-oi-oinee tune because it says so in a book. how do i know the chi-o-oinee tune? the khidmit shamas of nahdet elkanaies says that it is like tarh elfa3alla of kiahk. where can i get that? we have it recorded

    The above is an example of what i may call 'a valid' source because it is backed up by the text and the oral tradition.



    There is no doubt that we have lost hymns. That does not give us the right to invent a hymn and proclaim it is authentic.

    There is no harm in saying that a certain hymn is lost and the existing one is a new one, just as Fr. Metias Nasr did with the Cyrillian liturgy. But this way, I do know that a hymn is a modern one.

    Please read the article

    http://www.coptic.org/music/keraza75.htm


    Other things you include in in discussion, we request a source....and when we have another source, you simply disregard ours. than where are we now?! NO WHERE simply because you ask us to trust specific ppl than do the research.

    A source should have a merit. A scholar does evaluate whether a source is valid or not.

  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=13245.msg155138#msg155138 date=1335901145]
    SWMSANMG,
    If possible, can you send me the one form Mo3alem Zaher? [email protected]

    Everyone else,
    I didn't mean the hymn itself, I meant the tune. Of course the hymn is legitimate, but the tune may or may not be (especially in this case when there are at least 4 or 5 schools of teaching yet there originally was 1 tune for this hymn, not 4 or 5...). Sorry for the confusion due to my lack of diction.



    There is actually no way for us to know if there was only one way to sing this hymn. Tishori el 7aza3ny has 3 known ways. Je nai nan from the liturgies of St Cyril and St Gregory have 2 ways that it can be said. Each region typically had its own way of singing certain hymns. You even find that now...so i don't see how we can say one school of thought is correct over all else. I think we should take all schools of thought into account...see what is "most" correct and teach that.

    My two cents
  • jydeacon,
    True, but there must have been one specific tune before it became 2. It would only make sense that the oldest school of teaching had established all of the tunes but other schools made their own to better suffice their culture in that region of Egypt. There are some churches that sing Oouniatk and Akerpekseeou in the O Fee-et khen pieho-ou tune...that's a 4th school that gets overlooked...but I know for a fact that every hymn originally had 1 tune but others derived other tunes later based on solely the words which is what created those other schools of thought...that's the only way that makes sense.

    imikhail,
    Then what validates the "modern" hymn to be chanted if it wasn't handed down? That means we made up our own tunes and are still willing to openly chant them. That does as much harm as claiming they are authentic because they become just as widespread as them...and then become chanted openly as if they are authentic (just like Ibrahim Ayad and his Super Long Hiten...)
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155151#msg155151 date=1335913230]
    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.

    It's amazing that you can't tell I was being facetious and sarcastic. It is equally amazing that you can't see that you're contradicting yourself.
  • Remnkemi,
    Sorry for that tough rebuke, I thought that was aimed at me.

    I have sinned, forgive me.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13245.msg155173#msg155173 date=1335928969]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13245.msg155151#msg155151 date=1335913230]
    Your observation is correct. If there is no source then do not invent one.

    It's amazing that you can't tell I was being facetious and sarcastic. It is equally amazing that you can't see that you're contradicting yourself.


    I go with the verse that says to encourage the little ones.
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=13245.msg155172#msg155172 date=1335928780]

    imikhail,
    Then what validates the "modern" hymn to be chanted if it wasn't handed down? That means we made up our own tunes and are still willing to openly chant them. That does as much harm as claiming they are authentic because they become just as widespread as them...and then become chanted openly as if they are authentic (just like Ibrahim Ayad and his Super Long Hiten...)


    I agree with you.
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=13245.msg155138#msg155138 date=1335901145]
    SWMSANMG,
    If possible, can you send me the one form Mo3alem Zaher? [email protected]*********.***


    I might preempt geomike here and advise you not to post your email here
  • [quote author=qawe link=topic=13245.msg155179#msg155179 date=1335932898]
    [quote author=aem581 link=topic=13245.msg155138#msg155138 date=1335901145]
    SWMSANMG,
    If possible, can you send me the one form Mo3alem Zaher? [email protected]*********.***


    I might preempt geomike here and advise you not to post your email here

    What's wrong with posting it?
  • Aem581,

    Muallim Ibrahim Ayad did not create the tune for the long Hiten that he has made more popular. The version of Hiten that you are referring to was recorded by Muallim Mikhail Girgis, Muallim Tewfiq, and Muallim Fahim.
  • SWMSANMG,

    I have not received any recordings of the super long Hiten from any other m3alems besides M3alem Ibrahim and M3alem Sadek (whom both used to share hymns together). Send me a recording of M3alem Mikhail Girgis please.
  • If you go here, you'll find the long intercession hymn by M. Mikhail, M. Faheem, M. Tawfik, M. Farag, an M. Sadek. I believe HCOC's production Liturgy of the Word has another recording of M. Mikhail.


    Note, not all versions above are the same. Someone must be making up hymns and they're all illegitimate. (Yes. I'm being facetious again)
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=13245.msg155164#msg155164 date=1335920173]
    Tishori el 7aza3ny has 3 known ways.
    My two cents


    I have been always taught that there are 2 known ways and both were recorded by M. Mikhail??
  • [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13245.msg155201#msg155201 date=1335996142]
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=13245.msg155164#msg155164 date=1335920173]
    Tishori el 7aza3ny has 3 known ways.
    My two cents


    I have been always taught that there are 2 known ways and both were recorded by M. Mikhail??


    There is a rare Alexandrian way too.
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=13245.msg155203#msg155203 date=1335996514]
    [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13245.msg155201#msg155201 date=1335996142]
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=13245.msg155164#msg155164 date=1335920173]
    Tishori el 7aza3ny has 3 known ways.
    My two cents


    I have been always taught that there are 2 known ways and both were recorded by M. Mikhail??

    Do you have a recording or a source?
    There is a rare Alexandrian way too.
  • I have heard it a long time ago, I'll try finding it again
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