[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=12797.msg150773#msg150773 date=1326938412] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12797.msg150769#msg150769 date=1326937568] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150386#msg150386 date=1326478632] Protestantism is full of heresies that our Coptic youths must be aware of so they won't fall in its snares. [/i]
At our church's youth meetings from sk to the university graduate meetings, thats all we sing and do is protestant music and protestant style bible studies, protestant style preaching. Except for sunday morning's liturgy we are protestants sitting in front of the icons and the altar, ignoring it all.
Sad and disgusting. I pray that God will allow the words of Abouna Peter and others to reach these people that think this behavior is alright.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150745#msg150745 date=1326926422] Ok so I was going though my phone and found 'Here I am to worship' I was so tempted to listen to it and I did :( Should I delete all of the protestant songs that I have? and I have friends who are addicted to some Protestant songs, the ones that donot disagree with our church's teachings lyrics wise. Should I tell them to not listen to them any more? If so how can I convince them?
t our church's youth meetings from sk to the university graduate meetings, thats all we sing and do is protestant music and protestant style bible studies, protestant style preaching. Except for sunday morning's liturgy we are protestants sitting in front of the icons and the altar, ignoring it all.
It is too late now to change the Protestant style of worship in Egypt and outside. When cancer has spread from the head to the toes, affecting every organ, for 40 years, you can only wait till the patient dies "peacefully".
There is also no easy fix without examining the roots of the problem.
The Coptic Church has been a liturgical Church since its establishment in the Pentecost and through St. Mark preaching. It always understood the theology and soteriology through the liturgy first and then the Fathers second. It is for this reason that the heretics were never able to penetrate it in any significant way for their teachings was quickly exposed as heretical by the very simple, yet spiritual, people because it contrasted the Liturgy and the Fathers.
The strength of the Church during the Patriarchate of Pope Kyrillos VI is attributed to the return to the Liturgy and in doing so the Church returned to sound theology. Pope Kyrillos had a very famous quote that showed his lack of respect to preachers who teach only about morals without establishing the theological foundation first: " You have filled the air with empty words".
It changed.
Instead of living a liturgical life and considering it the source of our Christianity, we have been listening to sermons about morals and "how to be a good person" for the past 40 years and counting. Theology took the back seat and then was thrown out of the window totally, opening the way to Protestant and other heresies to creep in.
Protestant do teach about morals, they teach about loving a god, about being a good person in the society, and all that. A Copt in the 80's or 90's would find little difference between what he listens to inside the Coptic Church and what is taught in the Protestant synagoges, and therefore he accepted it.
The proof is the official sermons in the three major feasts : Nativity, Epiphany and Resurrection for the past. Nothing theological, only morals. They are recorded sermons and they are aired every feast in television and transcripted to the congregations everywhere. Record anytime the preacher has mentioned that Christ is the Logos Incarnate, or mention the Trinity, or the Incarnation. Only morals.
Out of this home-grown Protestant generation of the 80's and 90's, we have the Bishops and Priests. What do you expect from them? They grew up listening to Pentecostal songs and sermons. It is not that they are evil, they are just ignorant and clueless.
In addition, there is a constant urge to build big and expensive cathedrals everywhere and it is a huge financial load on any church and its clergy. They are being evaluated on the basis of how big the church is. Most of the Protestantized individuals are the rich ones, and you cannot lose them because you lose your finanical support.
Take this example:
There was a Protestant worship night in Mukatam, Egypt, in front of the altar of St. Samaan the Tenner, which was attended by coptic clergy and Protestant preachers in a touching :'( multifaith and intercommunical celebration. The priests attending were the most famous in the Coptic Church (Magari Younan, Samaan of Mukatam, for example). It happened in Mukatam which belongs to no other bishop but H.H. and it is administered by the "General" Bishop Youaness, the secretary of the Pope and the son of late Pastor Rizk, the very famous Protestant Pastor in Bani Suif, Egypt and the head of the Protestant Church in Upper Egypt at one point of time.
The videos are on youtube, and you can judge for yourself what kind of worship this was between Dr. Sameh Mouris the Protestant preacher and Magari Younan, in front of the altar. It led a Bishop, H.G. Bishop Surial, to issue a statement warning his own congregation from any similar activities, and asking to discipline the participating priests.
When a kid comes and asks about the Protestant concerts, no matter what kind of advise you give him, he can always refer you to this concert in Cairo or anywhere else and tell you:" So you know better than the Pope who allows it in his diocese?"
In the Orthodox London mission there will be no Protestantism. London doesn't need more Protestantism, it needs the Orthodox Faith.
In my own congregation there is no Protestantism. The Medway Towns don't need more Protestantism, they need the Orthodox Faith.
If we are only offering what others already offer then there is no point in any ministry. If we have the Pearl of Great Price then it must be worth selling all that we have to acquire it.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12797.msg150849#msg150849 date=1327090984] It is possible to resist the illness.
In the Orthodox London mission there will be no Protestantism. London doesn't need more Protestantism, it needs the Orthodox Faith.
In my own congregation there is no Protestantism. The Medway Towns don't need more Protestantism, they need the Orthodox Faith.
If we are only offering what others already offer then there is no point in any ministry. If we have the Pearl of Great Price then it must be worth selling all that we have to acquire it.
God willing Abouna we will overcome this awful sickness. I know I am going to keep writing, I am going to keep talking. These are the things that define the church. Throughout history whenever there was something against the church God sent His people to protect His it.
There is NOTHING wrong with listening to, "protestant" praise... so what? god only accepts "aaaa" and "eeee" all day? Do you even know the words in these songs??? They are truly AMAZING.... you saying tht listening to protestant music is wrong.. then you have no idea who who God is[quote author=Stavro link=topic=12797.msg150846#msg150846 date=1327087555]
t our church's youth meetings from sk to the university graduate meetings, thats all we sing and do is protestant music and protestant style bible studies, protestant style preaching. Except for sunday morning's liturgy we are protestants sitting in front of the icons and the altar, ignoring it all.
It is too late now to change the Protestant style of worship in Egypt and outside. When cancer has spread from the head to the toes, affecting every organ, for 40 years, you can only wait till the patient dies "peacefully".
There is also no easy fix without examining the roots of the problem.
The Coptic Church has been a liturgical Church since its establishment in the Pentecost and through St. Mark preaching. It always understood the theology and soteriology through the liturgy first and then the Fathers second. It is for this reason that the heretics were never able to penetrate it in any significant way for their teachings was quickly exposed as heretical by the very simple, yet spiritual, people because it contrasted the Liturgy and the Fathers.
The strength of the Church during the Patriarchate of Pope Kyrillos VI is attributed to the return to the Liturgy and in doing so the Church returned to sound theology. Pope Kyrillos had a very famous quote that showed his lack of respect to preachers who teach only about morals without establishing the theological foundation first: " You have filled the air with empty words".
It changed.
Instead of living a liturgical life and considering it the source of our Christianity, we have been listening to sermons about morals and "how to be a good person" for the past 40 years and counting. Theology took the back seat and then was thrown out of the window totally, opening the way to Protestant and other heresies to creep in.
Protestant do teach about morals, they teach about loving a god, about being a good person in the society, and all that. A Copt in the 80's or 90's would find little difference between what he listens to inside the Coptic Church and what is taught in the Protestant synagoges, and therefore he accepted it.
The proof is the official sermons in the three major feasts : Nativity, Epiphany and Resurrection for the past. Nothing theological, only morals. They are recorded sermons and they are aired every feast in television and transcripted to the congregations everywhere. Record anytime the preacher has mentioned that Christ is the Logos Incarnate, or mention the Trinity, or the Incarnation. Only morals.
Out of this home-grown Protestant generation of the 80's and 90's, we have the Bishops and Priests. What do you expect from them? They grew up listening to Pentecostal songs and sermons. It is not that they are evil, they are just ignorant and clueless.
In addition, there is a constant urge to build big and expensive cathedrals everywhere and it is a huge financial load on any church and its clergy. They are being evaluated on the basis of how big the church is. Most of the Protestantized individuals are the rich ones, and you cannot lose them because you lose your finanical support.
Take this example:
There was a Protestant worship night in Mukatam, Egypt, in front of the altar of St. Samaan the Tenner, which was attended by coptic clergy and Protestant preachers in a touching :'( multifaith and intercommunical celebration. The priests attending were the most famous in the Coptic Church (Magari Younan, Samaan of Mukatam, for example). It happened in Mukatam which belongs to no other bishop but H.H. and it is administered by the "General" Bishop Youaness, the secretary of the Pope and the son of late Pastor Rizk, the very famous Protestant Pastor in Bani Suif, Egypt and the head of the Protestant Church in Upper Egypt at one point of time.
The videos are on youtube, and you can judge for yourself what kind of worship this was between Dr. Sameh Mouris the Protestant preacher and Magari Younan, in front of the altar. It led a Bishop, H.G. Bishop Surial, to issue a statement warning his own congregation from any similar activities, and asking to discipline the participating priests.
When a kid comes and asks about the Protestant concerts, no matter what kind of advise you give him, he can always refer you to this concert in Cairo or anywhere else and tell you:" So you know better than the Pope who allows it in his diocese?"
So wait.... theres something WRONG with learning about morals????? In my opinion if u know theology but not morals then the theology does you NO good... you will go to heaven cuz of your relationship with God and how u have acted... all the commandments and sermons from Christ were about morals.. not theology!
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150825#msg150825 date=1327017196] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150745#msg150745 date=1326926422] Ok so I was going though my phone and found 'Here I am to worship' I was so tempted to listen to it and I did :( Should I delete all of the protestant songs that I have? and I have friends who are addicted to some Protestant songs, the ones that donot disagree with our church's teachings lyrics wise. Should I tell them to not listen to them any more? If so how can I convince them?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150902#msg150902 date=1327162899] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150825#msg150825 date=1327017196] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150745#msg150745 date=1326926422] Ok so I was going though my phone and found 'Here I am to worship' I was so tempted to listen to it and I did :( Should I delete all of the protestant songs that I have? and I have friends who are addicted to some Protestant songs, the ones that donot disagree with our church's teachings lyrics wise. Should I tell them to not listen to them any more? If so how can I convince them?
Would someone please help me?!?
Listen to it... keep it.. play it.... contemplate on it... pray with it... do anything but dont delete it
I have to agree with avvakaras.. Even though personally I'm not to don of these songs, if there are no heretical words in the songs there should be no reason to not say them. During liturgies and services in the church, we have a deep and spiritual rite handed down to us from our fathers, let us cherish and keep that. In youth meetings or spiritual meetings sure, say these songs all you want. And guess what, no offense to any of the people who oppose this view but this fanatical behavior will be the downfall of our church if it continues. Keep in mind that the songs that are Said should be examined for theological errors, if none are found then why not? We arent and should never ever ever ever change our theology or get rid of our heritage. Also many people who aren't (no offense again) musically inclined will fined it very hard to enjoy our hymns( and I have a deep love for our hymns). However, there are also lots of orthodox taraneem available, let's try to keep these first and if need be there is nothing wrong with theologically agreeable "Protestant" songs. Examine the lyrics, as I have said like 50000 times in this post, and if try are orthodox, keep the song, sing, praise and pray with it
EDIT: even though I personally dislike musical instruments to be used with spiritual songs in church, that doesn't mean that the use of instruments is wrong. Look at the story of the Israelites after crossing the red sea. How did they praise God? How did David sing the psalms? He had a harp, am I right or not? And reference to psalm 150 as well
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12797.msg150358#msg150358 date=1326426886] Christ's Servant brings up an important point: The youth think tasbeha is boring.
I think there are a few reasons why tasbeha is "boring" (this is in no particular order):
1) Sin - it is hard to genuinely praise God without having repented. Your mind constantly wanders and your heart is heavy because it is burdened with guilt and shame.
2) Language - when we pray more than half the hymns in Coptic and no one understands, we are missing the point and not benefiting.
3) Understanding - lack of knowledge concerning the hymns (what they refer to, their purpose, the progression, etc.) limits how deep one can go into the praises.
4) "Hyphy" tasbehas - when the cymbals are played fast, the pitch is high, someone is doing a solo, the volume is up, everyone is bobbin' their heads, etc., something is wrong. We no longer have an argument against the Protestant concert, if we are turning tasbeha into a concert. It should be prayed calmly, the cymbals should be played humbly, no one voice should stand out and we should unite to glorify God. When this is not the case - we will judge one tasbeha as being a "good" one because "folan" was playing the cymbals tight and we said all the cool hymns. . .
5) Lack of preparation - going to asheya before, avoiding small talk, praying the agbeya, etc., all need to be done to prepare one's mind and clear it from the thoughts of the world.
6) Lack of Habituation - You don't like something that is good for you after doing it once. In the same way that any overweight person who goes to the gym hates his life after the first workout, the young kid who never prayed a tasbeha before will hate life after it. But after doing it for a while he will see the fruits. As the fat man loses weight and feels good about himself, the person who continues praying tasbeha will forget himself and focus on God.
7) Role-models - Where are they? Kids want to see the cool servant at tasbeha but all they see is old uncles and the same few chanters who are at church for every occasion. There is no one to connect with. It looks like tasbeha is either for old people or saints.
Please add anything else or correct any problems.
I always find that even when I come with a hard heart, tasbeha stirs me to repentance like nothing else and that includes the liturgy.
I go to Church sometimes by myself and do it solo; I don't know why but its one of the most joyful things you can do in the Church.
I also adore the English tasbeha like nothing else; I honestly don't have the time of day for Coptic tasbeha anymore. When its chanted properly it is wonderful.
I hate how people don't take the English tradition seriously and make up horrible sounding and translated English equivalents of Coptic hymns.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150848#msg150848 date=1327090054] I do agree with Stavro to an extent.
Do we really know what details the Pope knew of this Muquattam worship?
I heard from some friends in contact with the Bishop that there were other Bishops present who never said anything. His Grace was actually quite annoyed that he was the only person to stand up and say what was happening was wrong as he was a tourist and one off guest at that Church.
If those who attend Protestant services are liable to be excommunicated then how can it be acceptable to sing those songs which are written and performed by Protestants?
It would be like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Mormon song then why shouldn't we sing it? Or even like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Hindu song then why shouldn't we sing it.
St John ran out of the public baths rather than find himself in the company of the heretic Cerinthus. The very fact that so many seem to think that it is entirely a matter of their own personal choice what they listen to, or what they read, or what they watch is a symptom of Protestantism.
Believe me, I know. I have been a Protestant for 25 years.
I am a priest yet I am still seeking very hard to learn the way of obedience, and to place myself always under the will of someone superior to me. I have a very great deal to learn since I was brought up to believe that essentially my faith was my business. It saddens me to see that many in the Orthodox Church of Alexandria have this view and would cast away their birthright for a mess of pottage in the manner of Esau.
From the veyr beginning it has been forbidden for Orthodox Christians to attend Protestant services as if they were the same as Orthodox ones. From the beginning this has been a cause of discipline and even excommunication. Even in recent times Popes during the 19th century issues the same prohibition on attending Protestant services, and even the Synod of our own times has spoken against such influences.
If a person does not realise why they should not constantly listen to modern Evangelical and Pentecostal songs then they should be humble before the teaching of the Church and not set themselves up as a judge of what is acceptable. The dangers do not only lie in the words, nor even the music, but in the whole spiritual culture to which we expose ourselves. If the whole treasury of hymns from the tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria is not enough to satisfy a person then they should look to that of any other Orthodox Church. There is no excuse for satisfying our ears with anything outside the Orthoox tradition.
To turn from Orthodoxy to Protestantism is a dangerous path indeed. May the Lord preserve His Church.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12797.msg150914#msg150914 date=1327223601] If those who attend Protestant services are liable to be excommunicated then how can it be acceptable to sing those songs which are written and performed by Protestants?
It would be like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Mormon song then why shouldn't we sing it? Or even like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Hindu song then why shouldn't we sing it.
St John ran out of the public baths rather than find himself in the company of the heretic Cerinthus. The very fact that so many seem to think that it is entirely a matter of their own personal choice what they listen to, or what they read, or what they watch is a symptom of Protestantism.
Believe me, I know. I have been a Protestant for 25 years.
I am a priest yet I am still seeking very hard to learn the way of obedience, and to place myself always under the will of someone superior to me. I have a very great deal to learn since I was brought up to believe that essentially my faith was my business. It saddens me to see that many in the Orthodox Church of Alexandria have this view and would cast away their birthright for a mess of pottage in the manner of Esau.
From the veyr beginning it has been forbidden for Orthodox Christians to attend Protestant services as if they were the same as Orthodox ones. From the beginning this has been a cause of discipline and even excommunication. Even in recent times Popes during the 19th century issues the same prohibition on attending Protestant services, and even the Synod of our own times has spoken against such influences.
If a person does not realise why they should not constantly listen to modern Evangelical and Pentecostal songs then they should be humble before the teaching of the Church and not set themselves up as a judge of what is acceptable. The dangers do not only lie in the words, nor even the music, but in the whole spiritual culture to which we expose ourselves. If the whole treasury of hymns from the tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria is not enough to satisfy a person then they should look to that of any other Orthodox Church. There is no excuse for satisfying our ears with anything outside the Orthoox tradition.
To turn from Orthodoxy to Protestantism is a dangerous path indeed. May the Lord preserve His Church.
Aren't Protestants Christians? So how can you compare their songs with Mormon songs (with all due respect)?
Also, in our Western culture people listen to music very passively, so if it's simply being used for background music, wouldn't it be wise to allow it (after it has been checked thoroughly by the Church of course), as opposed to people listening to songs which promote blasphemy, violence and sexual immorality?
Many in my church are dying to convince people not to listen to these songs (and possibly failing) - it doesn't seem to make sense (to me) to forbid them this alternative - at least not across the board (eg someone may make an agreement with their confession father to drop inappropriate worldly music and listen to this sort of music instead).
Also, the church is in transition in the lands of immigration - there are barely any (or no) English Orthodox hymns in the "American/Australian/..." tradition *yet* - perhaps this is an issue which should not be pushed so hard at this stage?
From the above: Maybe the Synod's decisions are more relevant to Egypt?
I'm worried as mindless conservatism has been the downfall of churches eg Greek Ortho Church in Australia - the 2nd generation are completely disinterested
Also, maybe attitudes and the situation are different in Britain + there's no such thing as an American/Australian/... Orthodox Church to turn to.
Again, if we take such a hardline, then is worldly music which contains not a hint of evil (can even be approved by an Orthodox clergyman) wrong to listen to?
I know I've raised soooo many issues in my mind... I hope someone can address them. I'm genuinely concerned that one rash move could destroy the Church in the lands of immigration. And that although Abouna is definitely genuine, others with vested interests (the sort of people who want to use Coptic all the time - I love Coptic, but others don't) could simply be jumping on the bandwagon.
It is not for me to say whether any person belongs to Christ or not, but Protestantism is certainly not Christian in a formal sense, and is only Christian in loose and sociological sense. To say that Protestantism is Christian is to already have accepted the Protestant paradigm.
Orthodox is Christianity. Christianity is Orthodoxy.
Protestantism (and we are always speaking especially of modern Evangelicalism) does not accept these necessary Christian truths..
i. The sacrament of baptism ii. The sacrament of chrismation iii. The sacrament of the eucharist iv. The sacrament of ordination
Therefore it is not possible to say that Protestantism is able to make a person a Christian, grant that person the gift of the Holy Spirit, nourish them and unite them to Christ, form the spiritual structure of the Church. Protestantism therefore cannot be called Christian Church, even if we wish to say that Protestants are seekers after Christ, and are even in the status of catechumens.
More than that, the groups which Protestants do form, and these groups cannot be called the Church because of the rejection of all the sacraments, reject many other necessary doctrines such as..
i. The communion of saints ii. The rule of daily prayer iii. iconography iv. fasting v. monasticism vi. the teaching of the Fathers vii. the sacrament of confession viii. many books of the Scriptures ix. the reading of the Scriptures according to the Fathers x. the liturgical structure of worship
WHAT IS LEFT?
How can anyone who rejects all of these necessary teachings be considered Christian? Only by the person who believes that Protestantism is Christian also believing that these things are not necessary to being Christian. Unfortunately it is true that there is more in common between modern Evangelicalism and Mormonism than between modern Evangelicalism and Orthodoxy.
And Orthodox is Christianity, and Christianity is Orthodoxy.
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12797.msg150896#msg150896 date=1327161626] There is NOTHING wrong with listening to, "protestant" praise... so what? god only accepts "aaaa" and "eeee" all day? Do you even know the words in these songs??? They are truly AMAZING.... you saying tht listening to protestant music is wrong.. then you have no idea who who God is[quote author=Stavro link=topic=12797.msg150846#msg150846 date=1327087555]
Praises (tasbeha) doesn't have to be aaaaa and eeeee. We have a regular full tasbeha and we have also started a shorter tasbeha in entirely in english for the youth without any of the long melismatic hymns. There are ways to praise God in a beautiful and relevant way.
There are many Mormon hymns and songs in which the words are not offensive in themselves, but does this mean that if youth want to start singing them, and threaten to leave the Church if they are not allowed to, then their wishes should be submitted to?
Here is the first verse of a Mormon hymn...
Redeemer of Israel, our only delight On whom for a blessing we call Our shadow by day and our pillar by night Our King, our Deliverer, our all.
Should we sing this simply because it is possible to put a Christian spin on it? I don't think so at all. We must not only look at the content, and the medium (since the style of music is also problematic), but also at the source. And the source of this hymn, and a great many modern Evangelical songs is not Christian, because Christianity is Orthodoxy.
If folk want to sing other songs then let them do what I have often suggested and set Orthodox texts to a simple liturgical style of music.
I do not believe that the Orthodox Church is about to collapse because young people are not allowed to sing un-Orthodox songs. On the contrary I am in contact with more and more British people who want to become properly Orthodox, and do not want an Orthodoxy which is Protestantised.
As for other types of music. I have discussed this on other threads. There is popular music which contains immoral lyrics. This should not be listened to. There is popular music which uses increasingly sexual imagery to sell it. This music should not be supported by listening to it. There is other music which deals with non-spiritual and non-moral issues and is an expression of universal humanity. This may be listened to with some moderation - because the time is short.
This is completely different to music which deals with spiritual and moral issues, such as modern Evangelical music. To listen to such music, and to sing such music, is to inevitably plug into the Protestantism which forms and informs such music.
I find the phrase 'mindless conservatism' rather offensive. Not personally, I have had worse language addressed to me, but in regard to any Orthodox Church. Do we remain an Orthodox Church if we allow any group in the Church to insist that it will not participate in the life of the Church unless it is able to adopt a non-Orthodox spirituality? If we keep the people and they adopt Protestantism then what sort of Church are we.
There are issues around the question of the use of English and other Western languages. There are issues around supporting folk in embracing the fulness of the Orthodox and Christian Faith. But adopting Protestantism is never the answer.
Can I say something? (yes) Unlike Protestantism, Orthodoxy was handed down to us, without alteration, since the time of Jesus. So who are we to think something outside of the church is "safe" for our salvation? We didn't create our faith, so it doesn't make sense (especially as youth) to add to it. Or are we so spiritual and holy that we can differentiate between what will destroy us and what will build us up, despite what are fathers say? If our fathers say no, then we are in absolutely no position to argue.
Have any of you ever even heard Casting Crowns or Tenth Avenue North????????????? They are true, strong prayers. Much more effective to our youth than coptic or alhan! They lovee these songs and praise God through them! personally, i loveee both types of praise! STOP BEING HARD NECKED! You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51)
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12797.msg150937#msg150937 date=1327280196] Have any of you ever even heard Casting Crowns or Tenth Avenue North????????????? They are true, strong prayers. Much more effective to our youth than coptic or alhan! They lovee these songs and praise God through them! personally, i loveee both types of praise! STOP BEING HARD NECKED! You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51)
As you can see I have some sympathy for your position, but quoting random verses out of context means nothing
U want context?? Stephen telling the high priests about being stiff necked... cuz the werent accepting jesus... cuz they were too busy being strict with their own religion and being jews... ur not accepting gods praise cuz ur too busy being "orthodox" and dont feel bad for me... i feel bad for you... cuz you have no idea who God really is!
[quote author=avvakaras link=topic=12797.msg150940#msg150940 date=1327282367] U want context?? Stephen telling the high priests about being stiff necked... cuz the werent accepting jesus... cuz they were too busy being strict with their own religion and being jews... ur not accepting gods praise cuz ur too busy being "orthodox" and dont feel bad for me... i feel bad for you... cuz you have no idea who God really is!
You need to enter the school of humility and discipleship.
I think we're all missing one of the main ingredients of this discussion; the reason why we should chant Orthodox hymns like the Tasbeha over protestant ones and even why we should restrict ourselves from attending concerts such as protestant ones is because -speaking positively - the Orthodox ones are more joyful when they're done in the right way.
I hate the renditions of the Tasbeha which we chant in my Church, the English translations are horrible and they're sang in such a soulless way that they sound terrible too. I prefer to do the Tasbeha in full English on my own or with good deacons who are committed to the English tradition and it is always uplifting and wonderful. It has the power to lift my heart, even when it is in the deepest mires of sin up towards heaven as I remember the saving acts of the Lord and the mercy which He shown towards Israel.
The Orthodox hymns are not only much deeper but they're connecting the right parts of our anthropological make-up to God in the right way. We must remember that worship music is first and foremost not about music, it is about God and offering right worship to God. It is only in the Orthodox Church that you will find the right balance of emotion, intellect and spirit in the way which we worship. Protestant Churches are well meaning but ultimately because they lack a physically connection with the Apostles their musical tradition comes more from popular culture than it does from what was handed down by our elders. It is for this reason that making objective assessment on how good or bad a protestant hymn is can only by done by measuring it against the Orthodox Church as a guide. The bible doesn't contain any musical notation nor can it offer a guide for things like musical tempo which can be used to measure against contemporary Protestant music.
The last reason why we should look towards the Orthodox tradition is that by putting the worship rather than the music first we're going to receive a much fuller joy because we know that our joy comes from God. Joy is not like the temporary pleasure of clapping hands in large group of souls who are being merry together; its deeper than this because it is much deeper than emotion - it is the only food which can satisfy my soul when it is hungry and in need of food. Protestant music may make me full - for a while - and at other times it might make my tummy ache. I know that I will never experience these things if I worship in the Orthodox in the way that it was intended - which brings me to my second major point (and I apologise in advance because this might upset some people).
I think -ironically- the main problem we have is because of the love of Coptic in the Church. People to be emotionally connected to hymnology because they enjoy the tunes without trying to penetrate the depth of what they mean. These same people are then willing recipients of Protestant music because they connection which they are attracted to in Protestant music is actually coming directly from a deficiency which is common in much of how our believers approach our musical tradition. As is common in shallower traditions such as protestantism they will use shallow emotional hooks better than the ones in the Coptic tradition because that is what their worship is based on whereas ours is 'supposed' to be based on penetrating the boundaries of time and space to offer to God acceptable praise.
I remember once that one of my friends was telling a senior deacon in his Church that Agios Iesteen is a dubious hymn that shouldn't be chanted in Church. His response was something along the lines of - yeah but the people don't know what it means and it has a nice tune. If this is the approach which we have to our hymnology then there are serious issues with the Spirituality of our congregations. Where is onus on worshiping God in a way which is pleasing to Him? Where is the focus on correct dogma? Where is the expression of this worship being the beautiful corporation of chastity and holiness in the Church found in willing and serene hearts offering up perfect praise to God in heaven?
I am a student of theology and I spend time dwelling over the meaning of words and so on and no matter how much I learn I have concluded that there is no replacement for doing full Tasbeha in English, Coptic at best will only ever be a poor substitute. The reason is because no matter how much Coptic I learn I will never be able to appreciate the beauty of the poetry in the music unless I can see it in the language I speak everyday. I can never be moved to repentance by the pleas in the prayers unless the pleas come in a language which I am comfortable with and understand.
I find often that our Coptic is so poorly chanted, or chanted so quickly that it becomes meaningless and these are problems which cannot be fixed in an environment in which the person praying doesn't understand what he is saying and the manner in which it should be prayed.
I am a student of theology and I spend time dwelling over the meaning of words and so on and no matter how much I learn I have concluded that there is no replacement for doing full Tasbeha in English, Coptic at best will only ever be a poor substitute. The reason is because no matter how much Coptic I learn I will never be able to appreciate the beauty of the poetry in the music unless I can see it in the language I speak everyday. I can never be moved to repentance by the pleas in the prayers unless the pleas come in a language which I am comfortable with and understand.
I very much appreciate your opinion. However, there are those of us who cherish Coptic very much and believe it is integral to the hymnology of the Coptic tasbeha.
Instead of blaming Coptic, have Coptic be part of the solution. Why is it always the Coptic language to blame as if it is the hanger on which we hang our laziness to learn.
I am sorry my dear brother - and I do emphasise that I offer this up as my own personal opinion as educated or uneducated as it may be - but I believe that the way Coptic is used and understood by the people IS part of the problem.
What makes our hymnology beautiful is not the language, rather it was the Holy Spirit inspiring its authors to user their intellectual and poetic gifts in a language which was native to them to construct over a large expanse of time; something which is spiritually, emotionally and intellectually beautiful and it is the Orthodox Churches responsibility to protect this beauty - I will not diverge from you here.
It is however much easier and more effective rather than placing the burden on 10 million Copts to learn Coptic, placing the burden on 100 to create good translations. It is the job of the Church to make life easier for believers not harder.
I also take slight offence at the suggestion that what I am saying is because of laziness. I spend a great deal of time understanding the traditions and theology of our Church and to be honest when I try to follow the Coptic my mind always trails behind the speaker because they're always chanting too fast. I don't see the point in the Church insisting that believers should study Coptic for days and weeks on end just so that they can follow a liturgy - to be frank this is not realistic or fair.
If we even take me out of the equation (which is probably the right thing to do); in my diocese we have a scholar who is a legend in Coptic research; a cursory glance through his works will demonstrate his acumen:
This lists his works from the last 10 years (his full body of published periodicals in research least 4 times as long as this).
As a professional translator of Coptic and a teacher of it in our seminaries we asked him if he understood the liturgy and he said he couldn't. The issue is when it comes to using the language day to day he has no one to practice speaking it with - he joked sarcastically and said - should I practice speaking Coptic with my mirror?
If this man who uses ancient languages professionally and has done so for pretty much all his academic career cannot understand the liturgy in its natural flow - why is it sane to expect our congregations to do so?
I'm not saying we throw the baby out with the bath water and remove the Coptic language from our Churches; I'm simply making the point that if we're going to flourish as a Church we MUST take English seriously.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150955#msg150955 date=1327292986] As a professional translator of Coptic and a teacher of it in our seminaries we asked him if he understood the liturgy and he said he couldn't.
I find it amazing that such a scholar cannot understand the liturgy while I can.
BTW I know this scholar personally and he does understand the liturgy.
Yes - in the context where a scholar would read, study and critique the liturgy - absolutely his resume makes this clear. He admitted to my classmates that he can't use it as a general language for day to day conversation because you need to practice it in this context to have that kind of comprehension.
EDIT: Actually on second thought I might have taken this out of context. Please disregard my comment re. the scholar everyone.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12797.msg150956#msg150956 date=1327296697] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150955#msg150955 date=1327292986] As a professional translator of Coptic and a teacher of it in our seminaries we asked him if he understood the liturgy and he said he couldn't.
I find it amazing that such a scholar cannot understand the liturgy while I can.
BTW I know this scholar personally and he does understand the liturgy.
Yes - in the context where a scholar would read, study and critique the liturgy - absolutely his resume makes this clear. He admitted to my classmates that he can't use it as a general language for day to day conversation because you need to practice it in this context to have that kind of comprehension.
EDIT: Actually on second thought I might have taken this out of context. Please disregard my comment re. the scholar everyone.
I know what you are referring to. But there are people who can use it as a day to day language. One of them is Fr. Shenouda Maher who teaches Coptic for daily use.
I guess the problem is not in the language, the problem is in us who want the easy way out. Copts do stand out when it comes to abandoning their heritage, there are numerous people who faced the same difficulties as the Copts, yet they managed to preserved their heritage.
Comments
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12797.msg150769#msg150769 date=1326937568]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150386#msg150386 date=1326478632]
Protestantism is full of heresies that our Coptic youths must be aware of so they won't fall in its snares.
[/i]
At our church's youth meetings from sk to the university graduate meetings, thats all we sing and do is protestant music and protestant style bible studies, protestant style preaching. Except for sunday morning's liturgy we are protestants sitting in front of the icons and the altar, ignoring it all.
Sad and disgusting. I pray that God will allow the words of Abouna Peter and others to reach these people that think this behavior is alright.
Amin ya Rabb! = Amen Lord!
Ok so I was going though my phone and found 'Here I am to worship' I was so tempted to listen to it and I did :( Should I delete all of the protestant songs that I have? and I have friends who are addicted to some Protestant songs, the ones that donot disagree with our church's teachings lyrics wise. Should I tell them to not listen to them any more? If so how can I convince them?
When cancer has spread from the head to the toes, affecting every organ, for 40 years, you can only wait till the patient dies "peacefully".
There is also no easy fix without examining the roots of the problem.
The Coptic Church has been a liturgical Church since its establishment in the Pentecost and through St. Mark preaching. It always understood the theology and soteriology through the liturgy first and then the Fathers second. It is for this reason that the heretics were never able to penetrate it in any significant way for their teachings was quickly exposed as heretical by the very simple, yet spiritual, people because it contrasted the Liturgy and the Fathers.
The strength of the Church during the Patriarchate of Pope Kyrillos VI is attributed to the return to the Liturgy and in doing so the Church returned to sound theology. Pope Kyrillos had a very famous quote that showed his lack of respect to preachers who teach only about morals without establishing the theological foundation first: " You have filled the air with empty words".
It changed.
Instead of living a liturgical life and considering it the source of our Christianity, we have been listening to sermons about morals and "how to be a good person" for the past 40 years and counting. Theology took the back seat and then was thrown out of the window totally, opening the way to Protestant and other heresies to creep in.
Protestant do teach about morals, they teach about loving a god, about being a good person in the society, and all that. A Copt in the 80's or 90's would find little difference between what he listens to inside the Coptic Church and what is taught in the Protestant synagoges, and therefore he accepted it.
The proof is the official sermons in the three major feasts : Nativity, Epiphany and Resurrection for the past. Nothing theological, only morals. They are recorded sermons and they are aired every feast in television and transcripted to the congregations everywhere. Record anytime the preacher has mentioned that Christ is the Logos Incarnate, or mention the Trinity, or the Incarnation. Only morals.
Out of this home-grown Protestant generation of the 80's and 90's, we have the Bishops and Priests. What do you expect from them? They grew up listening to Pentecostal songs and sermons. It is not that they are evil, they are just ignorant and clueless.
In addition, there is a constant urge to build big and expensive cathedrals everywhere and it is a huge financial load on any church and its clergy. They are being evaluated on the basis of how big the church is. Most of the Protestantized individuals are the rich ones, and you cannot lose them because you lose your finanical support.
Take this example:
There was a Protestant worship night in Mukatam, Egypt, in front of the altar of St. Samaan the Tenner, which was attended by coptic clergy and Protestant preachers in a touching :'( multifaith and intercommunical celebration. The priests attending were the most famous in the Coptic Church (Magari Younan, Samaan of Mukatam, for example). It happened in Mukatam which belongs to no other bishop but H.H. and it is administered by the "General" Bishop Youaness, the secretary of the Pope and the son of late Pastor Rizk, the very famous Protestant Pastor in Bani Suif, Egypt and the head of the Protestant Church in Upper Egypt at one point of time.
The videos are on youtube, and you can judge for yourself what kind of worship this was between Dr. Sameh Mouris the Protestant preacher and Magari Younan, in front of the altar. It led a Bishop, H.G. Bishop Surial, to issue a statement warning his own congregation from any similar activities, and asking to discipline the participating priests.
When a kid comes and asks about the Protestant concerts, no matter what kind of advise you give him, he can always refer you to this concert in Cairo or anywhere else and tell you:" So you know better than the Pope who allows it in his diocese?"
Do we really know what details the Pope knew of this Muquattam worship?
In the Orthodox London mission there will be no Protestantism. London doesn't need more Protestantism, it needs the Orthodox Faith.
In my own congregation there is no Protestantism. The Medway Towns don't need more Protestantism, they need the Orthodox Faith.
If we are only offering what others already offer then there is no point in any ministry. If we have the Pearl of Great Price then it must be worth selling all that we have to acquire it.
It is possible to resist the illness.
In the Orthodox London mission there will be no Protestantism. London doesn't need more Protestantism, it needs the Orthodox Faith.
In my own congregation there is no Protestantism. The Medway Towns don't need more Protestantism, they need the Orthodox Faith.
If we are only offering what others already offer then there is no point in any ministry. If we have the Pearl of Great Price then it must be worth selling all that we have to acquire it.
God willing Abouna we will overcome this awful sickness. I know I am going to keep writing, I am going to keep talking. These are the things that define the church. Throughout history whenever there was something against the church God sent His people to protect His it.
When cancer has spread from the head to the toes, affecting every organ, for 40 years, you can only wait till the patient dies "peacefully".
There is also no easy fix without examining the roots of the problem.
The Coptic Church has been a liturgical Church since its establishment in the Pentecost and through St. Mark preaching. It always understood the theology and soteriology through the liturgy first and then the Fathers second. It is for this reason that the heretics were never able to penetrate it in any significant way for their teachings was quickly exposed as heretical by the very simple, yet spiritual, people because it contrasted the Liturgy and the Fathers.
The strength of the Church during the Patriarchate of Pope Kyrillos VI is attributed to the return to the Liturgy and in doing so the Church returned to sound theology. Pope Kyrillos had a very famous quote that showed his lack of respect to preachers who teach only about morals without establishing the theological foundation first: " You have filled the air with empty words".
It changed.
Instead of living a liturgical life and considering it the source of our Christianity, we have been listening to sermons about morals and "how to be a good person" for the past 40 years and counting. Theology took the back seat and then was thrown out of the window totally, opening the way to Protestant and other heresies to creep in.
Protestant do teach about morals, they teach about loving a god, about being a good person in the society, and all that. A Copt in the 80's or 90's would find little difference between what he listens to inside the Coptic Church and what is taught in the Protestant synagoges, and therefore he accepted it.
The proof is the official sermons in the three major feasts : Nativity, Epiphany and Resurrection for the past. Nothing theological, only morals. They are recorded sermons and they are aired every feast in television and transcripted to the congregations everywhere. Record anytime the preacher has mentioned that Christ is the Logos Incarnate, or mention the Trinity, or the Incarnation. Only morals.
Out of this home-grown Protestant generation of the 80's and 90's, we have the Bishops and Priests. What do you expect from them? They grew up listening to Pentecostal songs and sermons. It is not that they are evil, they are just ignorant and clueless.
In addition, there is a constant urge to build big and expensive cathedrals everywhere and it is a huge financial load on any church and its clergy. They are being evaluated on the basis of how big the church is. Most of the Protestantized individuals are the rich ones, and you cannot lose them because you lose your finanical support.
Take this example:
There was a Protestant worship night in Mukatam, Egypt, in front of the altar of St. Samaan the Tenner, which was attended by coptic clergy and Protestant preachers in a touching :'( multifaith and intercommunical celebration. The priests attending were the most famous in the Coptic Church (Magari Younan, Samaan of Mukatam, for example). It happened in Mukatam which belongs to no other bishop but H.H. and it is administered by the "General" Bishop Youaness, the secretary of the Pope and the son of late Pastor Rizk, the very famous Protestant Pastor in Bani Suif, Egypt and the head of the Protestant Church in Upper Egypt at one point of time.
The videos are on youtube, and you can judge for yourself what kind of worship this was between Dr. Sameh Mouris the Protestant preacher and Magari Younan, in front of the altar. It led a Bishop, H.G. Bishop Surial, to issue a statement warning his own congregation from any similar activities, and asking to discipline the participating priests.
When a kid comes and asks about the Protestant concerts, no matter what kind of advise you give him, he can always refer you to this concert in Cairo or anywhere else and tell you:" So you know better than the Pope who allows it in his diocese?"
So wait.... theres something WRONG with learning about morals????? In my opinion if u know theology but not morals then the theology does you NO good... you will go to heaven cuz of your relationship with God and how u have acted... all the commandments and sermons from Christ were about morals.. not theology!
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150745#msg150745 date=1326926422]
Ok so I was going though my phone and found 'Here I am to worship' I was so tempted to listen to it and I did :( Should I delete all of the protestant songs that I have? and I have friends who are addicted to some Protestant songs, the ones that donot disagree with our church's teachings lyrics wise. Should I tell them to not listen to them any more? If so how can I convince them?
Would someone please help me?!?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150825#msg150825 date=1327017196]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12797.msg150745#msg150745 date=1326926422]
Ok so I was going though my phone and found 'Here I am to worship' I was so tempted to listen to it and I did :( Should I delete all of the protestant songs that I have? and I have friends who are addicted to some Protestant songs, the ones that donot disagree with our church's teachings lyrics wise. Should I tell them to not listen to them any more? If so how can I convince them?
Would someone please help me?!?
Listen to it... keep it.. play it.... contemplate on it... pray with it... do anything but dont delete it
EDIT: even though I personally dislike musical instruments to be used with spiritual songs in church, that doesn't mean that the use of instruments is wrong. Look at the story of the Israelites after crossing the red sea. How did they praise God? How did David sing the psalms? He had a harp, am I right or not? And reference to psalm 150 as well
Christ's Servant brings up an important point: The youth think tasbeha is boring.
I think there are a few reasons why tasbeha is "boring" (this is in no particular order):
1) Sin - it is hard to genuinely praise God without having repented. Your mind constantly wanders and your heart is heavy because it is burdened with guilt and shame.
2) Language - when we pray more than half the hymns in Coptic and no one understands, we are missing the point and not benefiting.
3) Understanding - lack of knowledge concerning the hymns (what they refer to, their purpose, the progression, etc.) limits how deep one can go into the praises.
4) "Hyphy" tasbehas - when the cymbals are played fast, the pitch is high, someone is doing a solo, the volume is up, everyone is bobbin' their heads, etc., something is wrong. We no longer have an argument against the Protestant concert, if we are turning tasbeha into a concert. It should be prayed calmly, the cymbals should be played humbly, no one voice should stand out and we should unite to glorify God. When this is not the case - we will judge one tasbeha as being a "good" one because "folan" was playing the cymbals tight and we said all the cool hymns. . .
5) Lack of preparation - going to asheya before, avoiding small talk, praying the agbeya, etc., all need to be done to prepare one's mind and clear it from the thoughts of the world.
6) Lack of Habituation - You don't like something that is good for you after doing it once. In the same way that any overweight person who goes to the gym hates his life after the first workout, the young kid who never prayed a tasbeha before will hate life after it. But after doing it for a while he will see the fruits. As the fat man loses weight and feels good about himself, the person who continues praying tasbeha will forget himself and focus on God.
7) Role-models - Where are they? Kids want to see the cool servant at tasbeha but all they see is old uncles and the same few chanters who are at church for every occasion. There is no one to connect with. It looks like tasbeha is either for old people or saints.
Please add anything else or correct any problems.
I always find that even when I come with a hard heart, tasbeha stirs me to repentance like nothing else and that includes the liturgy.
I go to Church sometimes by myself and do it solo; I don't know why but its one of the most joyful things you can do in the Church.
I also adore the English tasbeha like nothing else; I honestly don't have the time of day for Coptic tasbeha anymore. When its chanted properly it is wonderful.
I hate how people don't take the English tradition seriously and make up horrible sounding and translated English equivalents of Coptic hymns.
I do agree with Stavro to an extent.
Do we really know what details the Pope knew of this Muquattam worship?
I heard from some friends in contact with the Bishop that there were other Bishops present who never said anything. His Grace was actually quite annoyed that he was the only person to stand up and say what was happening was wrong as he was a tourist and one off guest at that Church.
It would be like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Mormon song then why shouldn't we sing it? Or even like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Hindu song then why shouldn't we sing it.
St John ran out of the public baths rather than find himself in the company of the heretic Cerinthus. The very fact that so many seem to think that it is entirely a matter of their own personal choice what they listen to, or what they read, or what they watch is a symptom of Protestantism.
Believe me, I know. I have been a Protestant for 25 years.
I am a priest yet I am still seeking very hard to learn the way of obedience, and to place myself always under the will of someone superior to me. I have a very great deal to learn since I was brought up to believe that essentially my faith was my business. It saddens me to see that many in the Orthodox Church of Alexandria have this view and would cast away their birthright for a mess of pottage in the manner of Esau.
From the veyr beginning it has been forbidden for Orthodox Christians to attend Protestant services as if they were the same as Orthodox ones. From the beginning this has been a cause of discipline and even excommunication. Even in recent times Popes during the 19th century issues the same prohibition on attending Protestant services, and even the Synod of our own times has spoken against such influences.
If a person does not realise why they should not constantly listen to modern Evangelical and Pentecostal songs then they should be humble before the teaching of the Church and not set themselves up as a judge of what is acceptable. The dangers do not only lie in the words, nor even the music, but in the whole spiritual culture to which we expose ourselves. If the whole treasury of hymns from the tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria is not enough to satisfy a person then they should look to that of any other Orthodox Church. There is no excuse for satisfying our ears with anything outside the Orthoox tradition.
To turn from Orthodoxy to Protestantism is a dangerous path indeed. May the Lord preserve His Church.
If those who attend Protestant services are liable to be excommunicated then how can it be acceptable to sing those songs which are written and performed by Protestants?
It would be like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Mormon song then why shouldn't we sing it? Or even like saying, if there is nothing wrong with the words of a Hindu song then why shouldn't we sing it.
St John ran out of the public baths rather than find himself in the company of the heretic Cerinthus. The very fact that so many seem to think that it is entirely a matter of their own personal choice what they listen to, or what they read, or what they watch is a symptom of Protestantism.
Believe me, I know. I have been a Protestant for 25 years.
I am a priest yet I am still seeking very hard to learn the way of obedience, and to place myself always under the will of someone superior to me. I have a very great deal to learn since I was brought up to believe that essentially my faith was my business. It saddens me to see that many in the Orthodox Church of Alexandria have this view and would cast away their birthright for a mess of pottage in the manner of Esau.
From the veyr beginning it has been forbidden for Orthodox Christians to attend Protestant services as if they were the same as Orthodox ones. From the beginning this has been a cause of discipline and even excommunication. Even in recent times Popes during the 19th century issues the same prohibition on attending Protestant services, and even the Synod of our own times has spoken against such influences.
If a person does not realise why they should not constantly listen to modern Evangelical and Pentecostal songs then they should be humble before the teaching of the Church and not set themselves up as a judge of what is acceptable. The dangers do not only lie in the words, nor even the music, but in the whole spiritual culture to which we expose ourselves. If the whole treasury of hymns from the tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria is not enough to satisfy a person then they should look to that of any other Orthodox Church. There is no excuse for satisfying our ears with anything outside the Orthoox tradition.
To turn from Orthodoxy to Protestantism is a dangerous path indeed. May the Lord preserve His Church.
Aren't Protestants Christians? So how can you compare their songs with Mormon songs (with all due respect)?
Also, in our Western culture people listen to music very passively, so if it's simply being used for background music, wouldn't it be wise to allow it (after it has been checked thoroughly by the Church of course), as opposed to people listening to songs which promote blasphemy, violence and sexual immorality?
Many in my church are dying to convince people not to listen to these songs (and possibly failing) - it doesn't seem to make sense (to me) to forbid them this alternative - at least not across the board (eg someone may make an agreement with their confession father to drop inappropriate worldly music and listen to this sort of music instead).
Also, the church is in transition in the lands of immigration - there are barely any (or no) English Orthodox hymns in the "American/Australian/..." tradition *yet* - perhaps this is an issue which should not be pushed so hard at this stage?
From the above: Maybe the Synod's decisions are more relevant to Egypt?
I'm worried as mindless conservatism has been the downfall of churches eg Greek Ortho Church in Australia - the 2nd generation are completely disinterested
Also, maybe attitudes and the situation are different in Britain + there's no such thing as an American/Australian/... Orthodox Church to turn to.
Again, if we take such a hardline, then is worldly music which contains not a hint of evil (can even be approved by an Orthodox clergyman) wrong to listen to?
I know I've raised soooo many issues in my mind... I hope someone can address them.
I'm genuinely concerned that one rash move could destroy the Church in the lands of immigration. And that although Abouna is definitely genuine, others with vested interests (the sort of people who want to use Coptic all the time - I love Coptic, but others don't) could simply be jumping on the bandwagon.
Orthodox is Christianity. Christianity is Orthodoxy.
Protestantism (and we are always speaking especially of modern Evangelicalism) does not accept these necessary Christian truths..
i. The sacrament of baptism
ii. The sacrament of chrismation
iii. The sacrament of the eucharist
iv. The sacrament of ordination
Therefore it is not possible to say that Protestantism is able to make a person a Christian, grant that person the gift of the Holy Spirit, nourish them and unite them to Christ, form the spiritual structure of the Church. Protestantism therefore cannot be called Christian Church, even if we wish to say that Protestants are seekers after Christ, and are even in the status of catechumens.
More than that, the groups which Protestants do form, and these groups cannot be called the Church because of the rejection of all the sacraments, reject many other necessary doctrines such as..
i. The communion of saints
ii. The rule of daily prayer
iii. iconography
iv. fasting
v. monasticism
vi. the teaching of the Fathers
vii. the sacrament of confession
viii. many books of the Scriptures
ix. the reading of the Scriptures according to the Fathers
x. the liturgical structure of worship
WHAT IS LEFT?
How can anyone who rejects all of these necessary teachings be considered Christian? Only by the person who believes that Protestantism is Christian also believing that these things are not necessary to being Christian. Unfortunately it is true that there is more in common between modern Evangelicalism and Mormonism than between modern Evangelicalism and Orthodoxy.
And Orthodox is Christianity, and Christianity is Orthodoxy.
There is NOTHING wrong with listening to, "protestant" praise... so what? god only accepts "aaaa" and "eeee" all day? Do you even know the words in these songs??? They are truly AMAZING.... you saying tht listening to protestant music is wrong.. then you have no idea who who God is[quote author=Stavro link=topic=12797.msg150846#msg150846 date=1327087555]
Praises (tasbeha) doesn't have to be aaaaa and eeeee. We have a regular full tasbeha and we have also started a shorter tasbeha in entirely in english for the youth without any of the long melismatic hymns. There are ways to praise God in a beautiful and relevant way.
Here is the first verse of a Mormon hymn...
Redeemer of Israel, our only delight
On whom for a blessing we call
Our shadow by day and our pillar by night
Our King, our Deliverer, our all.
Should we sing this simply because it is possible to put a Christian spin on it? I don't think so at all. We must not only look at the content, and the medium (since the style of music is also problematic), but also at the source. And the source of this hymn, and a great many modern Evangelical songs is not Christian, because Christianity is Orthodoxy.
If folk want to sing other songs then let them do what I have often suggested and set Orthodox texts to a simple liturgical style of music.
I do not believe that the Orthodox Church is about to collapse because young people are not allowed to sing un-Orthodox songs. On the contrary I am in contact with more and more British people who want to become properly Orthodox, and do not want an Orthodoxy which is Protestantised.
As for other types of music. I have discussed this on other threads. There is popular music which contains immoral lyrics. This should not be listened to. There is popular music which uses increasingly sexual imagery to sell it. This music should not be supported by listening to it. There is other music which deals with non-spiritual and non-moral issues and is an expression of universal humanity. This may be listened to with some moderation - because the time is short.
This is completely different to music which deals with spiritual and moral issues, such as modern Evangelical music. To listen to such music, and to sing such music, is to inevitably plug into the Protestantism which forms and informs such music.
I find the phrase 'mindless conservatism' rather offensive. Not personally, I have had worse language addressed to me, but in regard to any Orthodox Church. Do we remain an Orthodox Church if we allow any group in the Church to insist that it will not participate in the life of the Church unless it is able to adopt a non-Orthodox spirituality? If we keep the people and they adopt Protestantism then what sort of Church are we.
There are issues around the question of the use of English and other Western languages. There are issues around supporting folk in embracing the fulness of the Orthodox and Christian Faith. But adopting Protestantism is never the answer.
Or are we so spiritual and holy that we can differentiate between what will destroy us and what will build us up, despite what are fathers say?
If our fathers say no, then we are in absolutely no position to argue.
Obedience: complying with authority.
Stop arguing with Fr. Peter.
They are true, strong prayers. Much more effective to our youth than coptic or alhan! They lovee these songs and praise God through them! personally, i loveee both types of praise!
STOP BEING HARD NECKED!
You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51)
Have any of you ever even heard Casting Crowns or Tenth Avenue North?????????????
They are true, strong prayers. Much more effective to our youth than coptic or alhan! They lovee these songs and praise God through them! personally, i loveee both types of praise!
STOP BEING HARD NECKED!
You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51)
As you can see I have some sympathy for your position, but quoting random verses out of context means nothing
and dont feel bad for me... i feel bad for you... cuz you have no idea who God really is!
U want context?? Stephen telling the high priests about being stiff necked... cuz the werent accepting jesus... cuz they were too busy being strict with their own religion and being jews... ur not accepting gods praise cuz ur too busy being "orthodox"
and dont feel bad for me... i feel bad for you... cuz you have no idea who God really is!
You need to enter the school of humility and discipleship.
I hate the renditions of the Tasbeha which we chant in my Church, the English translations are horrible and they're sang in such a soulless way that they sound terrible too. I prefer to do the Tasbeha in full English on my own or with good deacons who are committed to the English tradition and it is always uplifting and wonderful. It has the power to lift my heart, even when it is in the deepest mires of sin up towards heaven as I remember the saving acts of the Lord and the mercy which He shown towards Israel.
The Orthodox hymns are not only much deeper but they're connecting the right parts of our anthropological make-up to God in the right way. We must remember that worship music is first and foremost not about music, it is about God and offering right worship to God. It is only in the Orthodox Church that you will find the right balance of emotion, intellect and spirit in the way which we worship. Protestant Churches are well meaning but ultimately because they lack a physically connection with the Apostles their musical tradition comes more from popular culture than it does from what was handed down by our elders. It is for this reason that making objective assessment on how good or bad a protestant hymn is can only by done by measuring it against the Orthodox Church as a guide. The bible doesn't contain any musical notation nor can it offer a guide for things like musical tempo which can be used to measure against contemporary Protestant music.
The last reason why we should look towards the Orthodox tradition is that by putting the worship rather than the music first we're going to receive a much fuller joy because we know that our joy comes from God. Joy is not like the temporary pleasure of clapping hands in large group of souls who are being merry together; its deeper than this because it is much deeper than emotion - it is the only food which can satisfy my soul when it is hungry and in need of food. Protestant music may make me full - for a while - and at other times it might make my tummy ache. I know that I will never experience these things if I worship in the Orthodox in the way that it was intended - which brings me to my second major point (and I apologise in advance because this might upset some people).
I think -ironically- the main problem we have is because of the love of Coptic in the Church. People to be emotionally connected to hymnology because they enjoy the tunes without trying to penetrate the depth of what they mean. These same people are then willing recipients of Protestant music because they connection which they are attracted to in Protestant music is actually coming directly from a deficiency which is common in much of how our believers approach our musical tradition. As is common in shallower traditions such as protestantism they will use shallow emotional hooks better than the ones in the Coptic tradition because that is what their worship is based on whereas ours is 'supposed' to be based on penetrating the boundaries of time and space to offer to God acceptable praise.
I remember once that one of my friends was telling a senior deacon in his Church that Agios Iesteen is a dubious hymn that shouldn't be chanted in Church. His response was something along the lines of - yeah but the people don't know what it means and it has a nice tune. If this is the approach which we have to our hymnology then there are serious issues with the Spirituality of our congregations. Where is onus on worshiping God in a way which is pleasing to Him? Where is the focus on correct dogma? Where is the expression of this worship being the beautiful corporation of chastity and holiness in the Church found in willing and serene hearts offering up perfect praise to God in heaven?
I am a student of theology and I spend time dwelling over the meaning of words and so on and no matter how much I learn I have concluded that there is no replacement for doing full Tasbeha in English, Coptic at best will only ever be a poor substitute. The reason is because no matter how much Coptic I learn I will never be able to appreciate the beauty of the poetry in the music unless I can see it in the language I speak everyday. I can never be moved to repentance by the pleas in the prayers unless the pleas come in a language which I am comfortable with and understand.
I find often that our Coptic is so poorly chanted, or chanted so quickly that it becomes meaningless and these are problems which cannot be fixed in an environment in which the person praying doesn't understand what he is saying and the manner in which it should be prayed.
Please pray for me,
LiD
Instead of blaming Coptic, have Coptic be part of the solution. Why is it always the Coptic language to blame as if it is the hanger on which we hang our laziness to learn.
What makes our hymnology beautiful is not the language, rather it was the Holy Spirit inspiring its authors to user their intellectual and poetic gifts in a language which was native to them to construct over a large expanse of time; something which is spiritually, emotionally and intellectually beautiful and it is the Orthodox Churches responsibility to protect this beauty - I will not diverge from you here.
It is however much easier and more effective rather than placing the burden on 10 million Copts to learn Coptic, placing the burden on 100 to create good translations. It is the job of the Church to make life easier for believers not harder.
I also take slight offence at the suggestion that what I am saying is because of laziness. I spend a great deal of time understanding the traditions and theology of our Church and to be honest when I try to follow the Coptic my mind always trails behind the speaker because they're always chanting too fast. I don't see the point in the Church insisting that believers should study Coptic for days and weeks on end just so that they can follow a liturgy - to be frank this is not realistic or fair.
If we even take me out of the equation (which is probably the right thing to do); in my diocese we have a scholar who is a legend in Coptic research; a cursory glance through his works will demonstrate his acumen:
http://corner.acu.edu.au/research_supervision/framework/browse.php?srperid=213
This lists his works from the last 10 years (his full body of published periodicals in research least 4 times as long as this).
As a professional translator of Coptic and a teacher of it in our seminaries we asked him if he understood the liturgy and he said he couldn't. The issue is when it comes to using the language day to day he has no one to practice speaking it with - he joked sarcastically and said - should I practice speaking Coptic with my mirror?
If this man who uses ancient languages professionally and has done so for pretty much all his academic career cannot understand the liturgy in its natural flow - why is it sane to expect our congregations to do so?
I'm not saying we throw the baby out with the bath water and remove the Coptic language from our Churches; I'm simply making the point that if we're going to flourish as a Church we MUST take English seriously.
Please pray for me,
LiD
I find it amazing that such a scholar cannot understand the liturgy while I can.
BTW I know this scholar personally and he does understand the liturgy.
As a professional translator of Coptic and a teacher of it in our seminaries we asked him if he understood the liturgy and he said he couldn't.
I find it amazing that such a scholar cannot understand the liturgy while I can.
BTW I know this scholar personally and he does understand the liturgy.
Yes - in the context where a scholar would read, study and critique the liturgy - absolutely his resume makes this clear. He admitted to my classmates that he can't use it as a general language for day to day conversation because you need to practice it in this context to have that kind of comprehension.
EDIT: Actually on second thought I might have taken this out of context. Please disregard my comment re. the scholar everyone.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150955#msg150955 date=1327292986]
As a professional translator of Coptic and a teacher of it in our seminaries we asked him if he understood the liturgy and he said he couldn't.
I find it amazing that such a scholar cannot understand the liturgy while I can.
BTW I know this scholar personally and he does understand the liturgy.
Yes - in the context where a scholar would read, study and critique the liturgy - absolutely his resume makes this clear. He admitted to my classmates that he can't use it as a general language for day to day conversation because you need to practice it in this context to have that kind of comprehension.
EDIT: Actually on second thought I might have taken this out of context. Please disregard my comment re. the scholar everyone.
I know what you are referring to. But there are people who can use it as a day to day language. One of them is Fr. Shenouda Maher who teaches Coptic for daily use.
I guess the problem is not in the language, the problem is in us who want the easy way out. Copts do stand out when it comes to abandoning their heritage, there are numerous people who faced the same difficulties as the Copts, yet they managed to preserved their heritage.
When there is a will, there is a way.
I've always wondered what the impact of things like historical preservation are (this our second segway) maybe we need to spawn a new thread. :-)