Who is to blame?

13

Comments

  • DEAr returnorthodoxy and Unworthy1,
    No one can deny that Jesus being asserted still instructed us about not paying back evil with evil, but what Cephas is getting at, from my point of view, is if someone armed enters your house to steal it, and you had to react it the heat of the moment, what would you do? TUrn violent? Please be realistic.. if God in all His mercy would call that act violent, then HIs mercies are automated.. computer-judged rewards.. I don't if your cousin is an Egyptian, Coptic, or otherwise, can't remember if you said it before, but I tell you something else, I heard Christians retaliating with ill-mannered and abusive curses, and so that you know this very clearly, I'm not condoning such, but I can very well understand because I was put in similar situations.. I didn't say it was right, but I know how true Christians act after such events are over, and that's what we do now...
    Bottom line is I won't fault my brethren for having done these things because I know them very well and refuse to get the views of others to show me the right or WRONG that was done.. after all they were (and still are) in a no win situation
    Oujai

    EDIT: noun and verb modifications
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12453.msg146081#msg146081 date=1318565804]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote=John 2:13-17 (EOB)]Now the Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple, he found those who sold oxen, sheep and doves, as well as the money changers sitting [at their booths]. So, he made a whip of cords and drove [them] all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; he also poured out the changers' money and overthrew their tables. To those who sold the doves, he said, 'Take these things out of here! Do not make my Father's house a marketplace!' Then his disciples remember that it was written: 'Zeal for your house will consume me.'

    Christ didn't exactly turn the other cheek, did He? Would this constitute violence? Was not Christ the aggressor in this case?


    I don't see how that incident is relevant. I don't think it was a violent action by Christ at all. It was aggressive and "in your face" but completely non-violent.

    Do I even need to bring up the sufferings of our Lord? The way He was spit on, beaten, mocked, slapped, whipped, etc. and never lifted up His all-mighty hand in response.  . .

    Seems like radical non-violence to me.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12453.msg146088#msg146088 date=1318576850]
    DEAr returnorthodoxy and Unworthy1,
    No one can deny that Jesus being asserted still instructed us about not paying back evil with evil, but what Cephas is getting at, from my point of view, is if someone armed enters your house to steal it, and you had to react it the heat of the moment, what would you do? TUrn violent? Please be realistic.. if God in all His mercy would call that act violent, then HIs mercies are automated.. computer-judged rewards.. I don't if your cousin is an Egyptian, Coptic, or otherwise, can't remember if you said it before, but I tell you something else, I heard Christians retaliating with ill-mannered and abusive curses, and so that you know this very clearly, I'm not condoning such, but I can very well understand because I was put in similar situations.. I didn't say it was right, but I know how true Christians act after such events are over, and that's what we do...
    Bottom line is I won't fault my brethren for having done these things because I know them very well and refuse to get the views of others to show me the right or WRONG that was done.. after all you are in a no win situation
    Oujai



    [quote=Psalm 127:1] Unless the LORD builds the house,
      the builders labor in vain.
    Unless the LORD watches over the city,
      the guards stand watch in vain.
  • Look, this thread is totally flawed.

    Let me explain why:

    A Coptic Christian in Egypt recognises himself in 2 ways:
    * As an Egyptian Citizen who is a religious minority
    * As a Christian.

    As an Egyptian Citizen, he or she has rights. Reacting to violence is that right. Defending themselves is a right.

    These are not christian rights, but human rights.

    As a Christian, we can argue all day long - what rights do we have when we deserve death, and Christ died for our sins, so we should be happy walking around like dogs and be humble because Christ died for us.

    As an Egyptian Citizen - who happens to be a minority, they have the right to protest.

    Where in the khedmet il shammass is the protocol for Copts to protest, or vote? Where in the diskolia is it written down for them to know how to treat discrimination and violence.

    Why are you putting so much weight on the shoulders of Christians in Egypt as if they are not behaving Christian enough.

    A priest once made my life hell. He ruined my life.

    I shared my story with the wife of a priest I met, and all she told me was this:

    "SHAME ON YOU!! LOOK AT SAINT ILARIYA, SHE WAS FALSLY ACCUSED, AND ACCEPTED IT, HUMBLE YOURSELF TO THAT LEVEL"

    No wait a sec... I am a Christian, but a man also that has rights. Treating me unjustly and then expecting me to enjoy it to get some kind of blessing from it has NOTHING to do with me - its YOUR opinion.

    That's why this thread is flawed - people in here come and think that Copts have a duty to behave in a Christian manner - and in a Christian manner that suits your particular level of spirituality (which seems a bit self righteous if I may say so!).

    Coptic Christians in Egypt have ENOUGH to cope with without us putting needless weight around their shoulders asking them to smile whilst being killed like dogs.

    That's not my place, nor is it your place.

    The fact is that Coptic Christians are persecuted in Egypt. How each one handles that persecution is up to them - its their country - they have a right to express themselves how they see fit. If its not in a Christian manner - then fine. I don't expect them to behave like saints and ask to be murdered (yet, from what I've seen, many are asking to be martyrs anyway).

    I think we've all seen the videos of the military attacking a monastery - right? I don't have a problem with this - but if they start attacking another monk , then yes, I would fight back. What is so bad about that.

    Does anyone here realize that if Christians didn't fight back and adopted your idiotic stance, then Europe would have been islamized by now??

    Do you have any idea that it was through fighting back that Europe managed to maintain its Christian identity??

  • I think a whip lash is very painful.

    According to some here you should not react at all when someone tries to kill you, or even try to stop him from harming you; OK perhaps you are free regarding yourself but it is your duty to try to help your relatives and your friends, to interfere when you can if you see someone is trying to kill or steal or abduct your neighbor. How can you stop an armed criminal in these cases? always by showing the best welcoming big smile?..

    As a rule no one should be violent or aggressive but you must at least defend others and try to stop evil acts when possible. Defending is not the same as aggression. While loving our enemy shouldn't we defend ourselves and our neighbor? Many great Christian martyrs were famous officers or soldiers, like of the Theban Legion. Most suffered torture and were taken by the sword yes but they defended the weak while having strong faith before their martyrdom.

    Mark 12:31-32
    30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
    And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    John 15:13
    Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

    John 2
    5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”


    You should apply all the above teaching of Christ.

    Zoxsasi replies with good points.

    GBU
  • DEar Zoxsasi and John_S2000,
    I guess both returnorthodoxy and Unworthy1 are talking about the idealistic and absolutist way a Christian should be, and there is no question that we should always strive to achieve that in all our life.. my problem however is calling some acts wrong and unchristian because they happened that way.. let's pray for both parties and if I kill someone in defence of my country or my household then pray for me that God doesn't condemn me with those who blasphemed against His holy Name...
    Oujai
  • Ophadece,

    Let me put it to you this way (in arabic)

    God said whoever slaps you on the left cheek, offer him your right.

    He didn't say "offer him your affak"

    Slapping my left cheek is burning my church down and me not doing anything about it.
    Offering you my right cheek afterwards is forgiving you for it and hope that you don't burn another church.

    OFFERING YOU MY AFFA (Back of my neck) is watching military tanks run over people and stand by and do nothing.

    There is a limit mate.

    God said offer your cheek, not your affa!!

    For those that are not Egyptian - being slapped on your cheek is hard, being slapped on th back of your neck is hugely insulting if not humiliating.
  • [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12453.msg146102#msg146102 date=1318601530]
    Ophadece,

    Let me put it to you this way (in arabic)

    God said whoever slaps you on the left cheek, offer him your right.

    He didn't say "offer him your affak"

    Slapping my left cheek is burning my church down and me not doing anything about it.
    Offering you my right cheek afterwards is forgiving you for it and hope that you don't burn another church.

    OFFERING YOU MY AFFA (Back of my neck) is watching military tanks run over people and stand by and do nothing.

    There is a limit mate.

    God said offer your cheek, not your affa!!

    For those that are not Egyptian - being slapped on your cheek is hard, being slapped on th back of your neck is hugely insulting if not humiliating.


    Oh, by the way - I ONLY HAVE TWO CHEEKS!!

    If both get slapped, I think its clear that the person has been patient enough!!!

    I am not sure how much longer Coptic Christians in Egypt can cope.
  • We are to be gentle as doves but also wise as serpents, as He has sent His disciples (and by extension, those who witness to Him today, us) into a world full of wolves. I don't think anyone would argue against self-defense. But it must be prudent, insofar as we recognize ourselves as a minority and the reality of collective punishment at the hands of the Muslims and the state that backs them (having made Islam the religion of Egypt by constitutional amendment). It is not a mere possibility; it is an inevitability. I don't know all the facts about this instance, but I cannot condemn the Christians if they were defending themselves. It is the height of hypocrisy that the Muslims around the world (and not only them) look at the rock-throwers in Palestine as legitimate resistors, but inside Egypt it is a sin punishable by death to throw a rock at a policeman who fires live ammunition at you, or a soldier who drives over you in a vehicle.

    The only consolation that there is is that our God is merciful and just. Sinners will fall by their own net. Coptic Christians may have their own sins to answer for in this event (I really don't know), but I really wouldn't want to be an Egyptian soldier or a Salafi thug, standing before God and answering for what was done. Their time will come. Blessed is He who will reward you with the reward you have given us...
  • Very well said dzheremi. By the way salafists, are not thugs... both are distinct groups puppeteered by the scaf, as many others are. I would venture saying that rock throwing Palestinians defend a lawful principle (after they sold their own land... hehe) in the eyes of the Arab, or at least that is what they make it out as, BUT CHRISTIANS HAVE NO PRINCIPLE TO DEFEND FOR... especially during this time of transition... (as though all the other gatherings do not take place during the time of transition)... sad that is...
    PS: Dear Zoxsasi, I echo all what you said... couldn't agree more
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12453.msg146111#msg146111 date=1318610297]
    Very well said dzheremi. By the way salafists, are not thugs... both are distinct groups puppeteered by the scaf, as many others are.

    Intersting. I once asked a Muslim from the UK what he thought about the MB (this was years before the recent events in Egypt) and he was dismissive of them. "Oh, they are nothing but Salafi thugs in suits! When they get power, then people will really be in trouble." And this was a Muslim telling me this! So I guess I always figured "Salafi" and "thug" go together, even if it isn't always the case...and really, hearing them chant "The Copts are our guests!" and other vile things at their stupid gatherings kind of makes it hard to distinguish between them and the average thug who may or may not be a part of their political/religious camp...


    I would venture saying that rock throwing Palestinians defend a lawful principle (after they sold their own land... hehe) in the eyes of the Arab, or at least that is what they make it out as, BUT CHRISTIANS HAVE NO PRINCIPLE TO DEFEND FOR...

    Yes, sadly I think you are right. I have stumped more than one Muslim in the past by pointing out the existence of non-violent protests led in majority-Christian towns in Palestine, like the tax resistance of 1989 in Beit Sahour (80% Christian), where the local population paid dearly for this entirely peaceful action. The Muslim will usually say "See! This is proof that you have to be hard against the Israelis, and that they don't care for Christians like we do! All Palestine is one!" Yeah, yeah, munafiq...you keep telling me that while your coreligionists destroy Christian grave sites, like they did in Jisna in 2009, hang signs outside of our churches with their favorite sura on them (hint: It's surat al-Ikhlas, and it has NO BUSINESS being hung at the entrance of a Christian church!), pressuring us to leave our faith or leave the land. It sure sounds like Palestine is "ONE" (for Muslims only), you stupid fascists.  >:( You forget so quickly how the Arab nationalism that made you think you deserve this land was inculcated by "Hakim" George Habash, Ibrahim al-Yaziji, and other CHRISTIAN ARABS. But Christian blood is worth nothing...Lord have mercy...

    Alright, I have to stop posting now. This is hardly in keeping with the spirit of the fast. Sorry. It's hard to not despise Islam, and thereby transfer some of that anger to the stupid manipulators who expect us all to useful idiots for the spread of their blasphemy. May God strengthen His people in Egypt, and put their tormentors to shame.
  • This clip may help you get the scene more, as captured by moderate Muslims who had joined the marching protest and just reaching the site.

    http://youtu.be/w1kgmK67JiA

    The 1st ~12 minutes of this video show part of the protest ppl reaching the site from the left side of Maspero building, then the guy walked behind it after noticing thugs but he found other thugs there. The other (main) group that was hit by snipers targeting specific ppl came from Ramses Hilton side. There was a group of protesters and speakers already present on site before the 2 groups arrived. The last ~10' show few eye witnesses early next morning and a martyr's family and the father who's in deep pain. This clip is just one small view of the story.

    If possible keep good copies of this and similar video clips (there are a lot on Utube). But beware of some vicious clips that started to appear.

    BTW next morning the main street had been thoroughly washed of any traces of blood or flesh etc. by fire brigade water jets, I guess no massacre scene investigation was anticipated...

    GBU
  • I deleted my response which I has just written. I read it over, and not much will be understood from it. I'm going to take the highroad on this one, just ignore whats being said, and stop wasting my time on endless arguments, and infinite misunderstandings.
    Just as a last thing, I would like to hear what you have to say Kephas about the verses which you posted. Do you possibly have a patriotic commentary explaining them. It seems to me that Jesus was violent, and then told us not to be. I am probably misunderstanding something, and I know that, so please enlighten lol.

    Pray for Egypt, and who cares who's wrong. Lets strive to be non-violent ourselves, and pray for the action of God. forgive me if my outlining the importance of prayer over violence is  "self righteous"

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • returnorthodoxy,

    I haven't read all the posts on this topic tho I would like to give my personal opinion.

    The way I understand John 2:13-17 applied to current events, is simply that Christ will not indefinitely tolerate lies, abuses, misuses or blasphemies against the Church, being His people and His Altars, He is a jealous God and His zeal is real. Accordingly He will eventually act very strongly and firmly against all abusers in due time according to His Wisdom and His Will - that is when He will swiftly and powerfully punish and stop evil doers with His authority.

    Proverbs 8

          13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
          Pride and arrogance and the evil way
          And the perverse mouth I hate.

          14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
          I am understanding, I have strength.

          15 By me kings reign,
          And rulers decree justice.

          16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
          All the judges of the earth.


    The Lord is long suffering, nevertheless He will act. He also teaches us by example how to defend His Church.

    GBU
  • Dear returnorthodoxy,
    Are you showing us your true colours now? You're a muslim aren't you? You should have pointed this out long ago so I can reply at your level.. hope I haven't confused you..
    Oujai
  • Rabena y sam7ak.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12453.msg146100#msg146100 date=1318596019]
    DEar Zoxsasi and John_S2000,
    I guess both returnorthodoxy and Unworthy1 are talking about the idealistic and absolutist way a Christian should be, and there is no question that we should always strive to achieve that in all our life.. my problem however is calling some acts wrong and unchristian because they happened that way.. let's pray for both parties and if I kill someone in defence of my country or my household then pray for me that God doesn't condemn me with those who blasphemed against His holy Name...
    Oujai



    There is no such thing as an ideal Christian and a practical Christian. There is being Christian and then there is being unChristian.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12453.msg146120#msg146120 date=1318621798]
    Just as a last thing, I would like to hear what you have to say Kephas about the verses which you posted. Do you possibly have a patriotic commentary explaining them. It seems to me that Jesus was violent, and then told us not to be. I am probably misunderstanding something, and I know that, so please enlighten lol.


    The only Patristic commentary I have been able to find that even tries to address this incident in St. John's Gospel is from Origen. Origen prefers to take a more spiritual angle then a literal approach, so it's not particularly useful. You can find his commentary here.

    Personally, I don't think Christ's reaction here contradicts His command to turn the other cheek. There is a time a place for everything. We are supposed to be humble and meek, but that does not mean that we should allow people to walk all over us. When Christ threw out the moneylenders and sellers in the temple, it was because they had corrupted the very essence of the temple. I think the same thing happens in Egypt when the Muslims desecrate and burn the churches. They are corrupting the very essence of God's holy place and we should not be silent and stand idly by and 'turn the other cheek'. If we, as individuals, are being persecuted, there is a time to speak and a time to remain silent. When Christ stood before the Sanhedrin, there were times when He was silent, and there were times when He spoke in His defense. Remember when one of the high priest's servants struck Him? Did He just take it or did He speak up? Again, there's a time and place for everything, even reacting with force in defense of what is Holy.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12453.msg146124#msg146124 date=1318629211]
    Dear returnorthodoxy,
    Are you showing us your true colours now? You're a muslim aren't you? You should have pointed this out long ago so I can reply at your level.. hope I haven't confused you..
    Oujai



    Really?! What is your problem? What kind of person are you? And don't even try to say you were 'joking'. Only a jackass 'jokes' like that.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12453.msg146124#msg146124 date=1318629211]
    Dear returnorthodoxy,
    Are you showing us your true colours now? You're a muslim aren't you? You should have pointed this out long ago so I can reply at your level.. hope I haven't confused you..
    Oujai



    That was quite rudee to say, you wouldnt be a true christian saying that!!
  • What makes you wonder that, Ophadece? I read over Return Orthodoxy's posts a few times and I still don't see any "muslim" red flags...
  • DEar returnorthodoxy and all,
    I'm sorry that I assumed you were a muslim.. nothing more to say, I just hope you forgive me
    Dear Unworthy1,
    I wasn't talking about an ideal Christian, I was rather talking about idealistic Christian behaviour...
    Oujai
  • [quote author=St. John Chrysostom, Homily 67 on the Gospel of St. Matthew]

    Matthew 21:12-13.

    And Jesus went into the temple, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers and the seats of them that sold doves, and says unto them, It is written, my house shall be called a house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves.

    This John likewise says, but he in the beginning of his Gospel, this at the end. Whence it is probable this was done twice, and at different seasons.

    And it is evident both from the times, and from their reply. For there He came at the very passover, but here much before. And there the Jews say, What sign do you show us? John 2:18 but here they hold their peace, although reproved, because He was now marvelled at among all men.

    And this is a heavier charge against the Jews, that when He had done this not once only, but a second time, they continued in their trafficking, and said that He was an adversary of God, when they ought even from hence to have learned His honor for His Father and His own might. For indeed He also wrought miracles, and they saw His words agreeing with His works.

    But not even so were they persuaded, but were sore displeased, and this while they heard the prophet crying aloud, and the children in a manner beyond their age proclaiming Him. Wherefore also He Himself sets up Isaiah against them as an accuser, saying, My house shall be called a house of prayer. Isaiah 56:7

    But not in this way only does He show His authority, but also by His healing various infirmities. For the blind and the lame came unto Him, and He healed them, Matthew 21:14 and His power and authority He indicates.

    But they not even so would be persuaded, but together with the rest of the miracles hearing even the children proclaiming, were ready to choke, and say, Do you not hear what these say? And yet it was Christ's part to have said this to them, Hear ye not what these say? for the children were singing to Him as to God.

    What then says He? Since they were speaking against things manifest, He applies His correction more in the way of reproof, saying, Have ye never read, Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings You have perfected praise? And well did He say, Out of the mouth. For what was said was not of their understanding, but of His power giving articulation to their tongue yet immature.

    And this was also a type of the Gentiles lisping, and sounding forth at once great things with understanding and faith.

    And for the apostles also there was from hence no small consolation. For that they might not be perplexed, how being unlearned they should be able to publish the gospel, the children anticipate them, and remove all their anxiety, teaching them, that He would grant them utterance, who made even these to sing praises.

    And not so only, but the miracle showed that He is Creator even of nature. The children then, although of age immature, uttered things that had a clear meaning, and were in accordance with those above, but the men things teeming with frenzy and madness. For such is the nature of wickedness.

    Forasmuch then as there were many things to provoke them, from the multitude, from the casting out of the sellers, from the miracles, from the children, He again leaves them, giving room to the swelling passion, and not willing to begin His teaching, lest boiling with envy they should be the more displeased at His sayings.

    Now in the morning as He returned into the city, He was an hungered. Matthew 21:18 How is He an hungered in the morning? When He permits the flesh, then it shows its feeling. And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only. Matthew 21:19 Another evangelist says, The time of figs was not yet; but if it was not time, how does the other evangelist say, He came, if haply He might find fruit thereon. Whence it is manifest that this belongs to the suspicion of His disciples, who were yet in a somewhat imperfect state. For indeed the evangelists in many places record the suspicions of the disciples.

    Like as this then was their suspicion, so also was it too to suppose it was cursed for this cause, because of having no fruit. Wherefore then was it cursed? For the disciples' sakes, that they might have confidence. For because everywhere He conferred benefits, but punished no man; and it was needful that He should afford them a demonstrative proof of His power to take vengeance also, that both the disciples might learn, and the Jews, that being able to blast them that crucify Him, of His own will He submits, and does not blast them; and it was not His will to show forth this upon men; upon the plant did He furnish the proof of His might in taking vengeance. But when unto places, or unto plants, or unto brutes, any such thing as this is done, be not curious, neither say, how was the fig-tree justly dried up, if it was not the time of figs; for this it is the utmost trifling to say; but behold the miracle, and admire and glorify the worker thereof.

    Since in the case also of the swine that were drowned, many have said this, working out the argument of justice; but neither there should one give heed, for these again are brutes, even as that was a plant without life.

    Wherefore then was the act invested with such an appearance, and with this plea for a curse? As I said, this was the disciple's suspicion.

    But if it was not yet time, vainly do some say the law is here meant. For the fruit of this was faith, and then was the time of this fruit, and it had indeed borne it; For already John 4:35 are the fields white to harvest, says He; and, I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labor. John 4:38

    2. Not any therefore of these things does He here intimate, but it is what I said, He displays His power to punish, and this is shown by saying, The time was not yet, making it clear that of this special purpose He went, and not for hunger, but for His disciples' sake, who indeed marvelled exceedingly, although many miracles had been done greater; but, as I said, this was strange, for now first He showed forth His power to take vengeance. Wherefore not in any other, but in the moistest of all planted things did He work the miracle, so that hence also the miracle appeared greater.

    And that you might learn, that for their sakes this was done, that He might train them to feel confidence, hear what He says afterwards. But what says He? You also shall do greater things, if you are willing to believe and to be confident in prayer. Do you see that all is done for their sake, so that they might not be afraid and tremble at plots against them? Wherefore He says this a second time also, to make them cleave to prayer and faith. For not this only shall you do, but also shall remove mountains; and many more things shall you do, being confident in faith and prayer.

    But the boastful and arrogant Jews, wishing to interrupt His teaching, came unto Him, and asked, By what authority doest thou these things? Matthew 21:23 For since they could not object against the miracles, they bring forward against Him the correction of the traffickers in the temple. And this in John also they appear to ask, although not in these words, but with the same intent. For there too they say, What sign do you show unto us? Seeing that you do these things. But there He answers them, saying, Destroy this temple, and I in three days will raise it up, whereas here He drives them into a difficulty. Whence it is manifest, that then indeed was the beginning and prelude of the miracles, but here the end.

    But what they say is this: Have you received the teacher's chair? Have you been ordained a priest, that you displayed such authority? It is said. And yet He had done nothing implying arrogance, but had been careful for the good order of the temple, yet nevertheless having nothing to say, they object against this. And indeed when He cast them out, they did not dare to say anything, because of the miracles, but when He showed Himself, then they find fault with Him.

    What then says He? He does not answer them directly, to show that, if they had been willing to see His authority, they could; but He asks them again, saying, The baptism of John, whence is it? From heaven, or of men?

    And what sort of inference is this? The greatest surely. For if they had said, from heaven, He would have said unto them, why then did ye not believe him? For if they had believed, they would not have asked these things. For of Him John had said, I am not worthy to loose the latchet of His shoe; and, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sins of the world; and, This is the Son of God; and, He that comes from above is above all; John 4:31 and, His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor. Matthew 3:12 So that if they had believed him, there was nothing to hinder them from knowing by what authority Christ does these things.

    After this, because they, dealing craftily, said, We know not, He said not, neither know I, but what? Neither tell I you. Matthew 21:27 For if indeed they had been ignorant it would have been requisite for them to be instructed; but since they were dealing craftily with good reason He answers them nothing.

    And how was it they did not say that the baptism was of men? They feared the people Matthew 21:26 it is said. Do you see a perverse heart? In every case they despise God and do all things for the sake of men. For this man too they feared for their sakes not reverencing the saint but on account of men, and they were not willing to believe in Christ, because of men, and all their evils were engendered to them from hence.

    After this, He says, What do you think? A man had two sons; and he says to the first, go, work today in the vineyard. But he answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go sir: and went not. Whether then of them two did the will of his father? They say, the first.

    Again He convicts them by a parable, intimating both their unreasonable obstinacy, and the submissiveness of those who were utterly condemned by them. For these two children declare what came to pass with respect to both the Gentiles and the Jews. For the former not having undertaken to obey, neither having become hearers of the law, showed forth their obedience in their works; and the latter having said, All that the Lord shall speak, we will do, and will hearken, Exodus 19:8 in their works were disobedient. And for this reason, let me add, that they might not think the law would benefit them, He shows that this self-same thing condemns them, like as Paul also says, Not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For this intent, that He might make them even self-condemned, He causes the judgment to be delivered by themselves, like as He does also in the ensuing parable of the vineyard.

    3. And that this might be done, He makes trial of the accusation in the person of an other. For since they were not willing to confess directly, He by a parable drives them on to what He desired.

    But when, not understanding His sayings, they had delivered the judgment, He unfolds His concealed meaning after this, and says, Publicans and harlots go into the kingdom of Heaven before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and you believed him not; but the publicans believed him; and you, when you had seen it, repented not afterwards, that you might believe him. Matthew 21:31-32

    For if He had said simply, harlots go before you, the word would have seemed to them to be offensive; but now, being uttered after their own judgment it appears to be not too hard.

    CONTINUED
  • [quote author=St. John Chrysostom, Homily 67 on the Gospel of St. Matthew]
    Therefore He adds also the accusation. What then is this? John came, He says, unto you, not unto them, and not this only, but; also in the way of righteousness. For neither with this can you find fault, that he was some careless one, and of no profit; but both his life was irreprehensible, and his care for you great, and you gave no heed to him.

    And with this there is another charge also, that publicans gave heed; and with this, again another, that not even after them did ye. For you should have done so even before them, but not to do it even after them was to be deprived of all excuse; and unspeakable was both the praise of the one, and the charge against the other. To you he came, and you accepted him not; he came not to them, and they receive him, and not even them did ye take for instructors.

    See by how many things is shown the commendation of those, and the charge against these. To you he came, not to them. You believed not, this offended not them. They believed, this profited not you.

    But the word, go before you, is not as though these were following, but as having a hope, if they were willing. For nothing, so much as jealousy, rouses the grosser sort. Therefore He is ever saying, The first shall be last, and the last first. Therefore He brought in both harlots and publicans, that they might provoke them to jealousy.

    For these two indeed are chief sins, engendered of violent lust, the one of sexual desire, the other of the desire of money. And He indicates that this especially was hearing the law of God, to believe John. For it was not of grace only, that harlots entered in, but also of righteousness. For not, as continuing harlots, did they enter in, but having obeyed and believed, and having been purified and converted, so did they enter in.

    Do you see how He rendered His discourse less offensive, and more penetrating, by the parable, by His bringing in the harlots? For neither did He say at once, wherefore believed ye not John? But what was much more pricking, when, He had put forward the publicans and the harlots, then He added this, by the order of their actions convicting their unpardonable conduct, and showing that for fear of men they do all things, and for vainglory. For they did not confess Christ for fear, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; and again, of John they dared not speak evil, and not even this from reverence, but for fear. All which things He convicted by His sayings, and with more severity afterwards did He go on to inflict the blow, saying, But you, when you knew it, repented not afterwards, that you might believe him.

    For an evil thing it is not at the first to choose the good, but it is a heavier charge not even to be brought round. For this above all makes many wicked, which I see to be the case with some now from extreme insensibility.

    But let no one be like this; but though he be sunk down to the extremity of wickedness, let him not despair of the change for the better. For it is an easy thing to rise up out of the very abysses of wickedness.

    Heard ye not how that harlot, that went beyond all in lasciviousness, outshone all in godly reverence. Not the harlot in the gospels do I mean, but the one in our generation, who came from Phœnice, that most lawless city. For she was once a harlot among us, having the first honors on the stage, and great was her name everywhere, not in our city only, but even as far as the Cilicians and Cappadocians. And many estates did she ruin, and many orphans did she overthrow; and many accused her of sorcery also, as weaving such toils not by her beauty of person only, but also by her drugs. This harlot once won even the brother of the empress, for mighty indeed was her tyranny.

    But all at once, I know not how, or rather I do know well, for it was being so minded, and converting, and bringing down upon herself God's grace, she despised all those things, and having cast away the arts of the devils, mounted up to heaven.

    And indeed nothing was more vile than she was, when she was on the stage; nevertheless, afterwards she outwent many in exceeding continence, and having clad herself with sackcloth, all her time she thus disciplined herself. On the account of this woman both the governor was stirred up, and soldiers armed, yet they had not strength to carry her off to the stage, nor to lead her away from the virgins that had received her.

    This woman having been counted worthy of the unutterable mysteries, and having exhibited a diligence proportionate to the grace (given her) so ended her life, having washed off all through grace, and after her baptism having shown forth much self-restraint. For not even a mere sight of herself did she allow to those who were once her lovers, when they had come for this, having shut herself up, and having passed many years, as it were, in a prison. Thus shall the last be first, and the first last; thus do we in every case need a fervent soul, and there is nothing to hinder one from becoming great and admirable:

    4. Let no man then of them that live in vice despair; let no man who lives in virtue slumber. Let neither this last be confident, for often the harlot will pass him by; nor let the other despair, for it is possible for him to pass by even the first.

    Hear what God says unto Jerusalem, I said, after she had committed all these whoredoms, Turn thou unto me, and she returned not. Jeremiah 3:7 When we have come back unto the earnest love of God, He remembers not the former things. God is not as man, for He reproaches us not with the past, neither does He say, Why were you absent so long a time? When we repent; only let us approach Him as we ought. Let us cleave to Him earnestly, and rivet our hearts to His fear.

    Such things have been done not under the new covenant only, but even under the old. For what was worse than Manasseh? But he was able to appease God. What more blessed than Solomon? But when he slumbered, he fell. Or rather I can show even both things to have taken place in one, in the father of this man, for he the same person became at different times both good and bad. What more blessed than Judas? But he became a traitor. What more wretched than Matthew? But he became an evangelist. What worse than Paul? But he became an apostle. What more to be envied than Simon? But he became even himself the most wretched of all.

    How many other such changes would you see, both to have taken place of old, and now taking place every day? For this reason then I say, Neither let him on the stave despair, nor let him in the church be confident. For to this last it is said, Let him that thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall; 1 Corinthians 10:12 and to the other, Shall not he that falls arise? Jeremiah 8:4 and, Lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees. Again, to these He says, Watch; but to those, Awake, you that sleepest and arise from the dead. Ephesians 5:14 For these need to preserve what they have, and those to become what they are not; these to preserve their health, those to be delivered from their infirmity, for they are sick; but many even of the sick become healthy, and of the healthy many by remissness grow infirm.

    To the one then He says, Behold, you are made whole, sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you; John 5:14 but to these, Will you be made whole? Arise, take up your bed, and go unto your house. For a dreadful, dreadful palsy is sin, or rather it is not palsy only, but also somewhat else more grievous. For such a one is not only in inactivity as to good works, but also in the active doing of evil works. But nevertheless, though thou be so disposed, and be willing to rouse yourself a little, all the terrors are at an end.

    Though you have been so thirty and eight years, and art earnest to become whole, there is no one to hinder you. Christ is present now also, and says, Take up your bed, only be willing to rouse yourself, despair not. Have you no man? But you have God. Have you no one to put you into the pool? But you have Him who suffers you not to need the pool. Have you had no one to cast you in there? But you have Him that commands you to take up your bed.

    You may not say, While I am coming, another steps down before me. John 5:7 For if it be your will to go down into the fountain, there is none to hinder you. Grace is not consumed, is not spent, it is a kind of fountain springing up constantly; by His fullness are we all healed both soul and body. Let us come unto it then even now. For Rahab also was a harlot, yet was she saved; and the thief was a murderer, yet he became a citizen of paradise; and while Judas being with his Master perished, the thief being on a cross became a disciple. Such are the wonderful works of God. Thus the magi approved themselves, thus the publican became an evangelist, thus the blasphemer an apostle.

    5. Look at these things, and never despair, but be ever confident, and rouse yourself. Lay hold only on the way that leads there, and you will advance quickly. Shut not up the doors, close not up the entrance. Short is the present life, small the labor. But though it were great, not even so ought one to decline it. For if you toil not at this most glorious toil that is spent upon repentance and virtue, in the world you will assuredly toil and weary yourself in other ways. But if both in the one and the other there be labor, why do we not choose that which has its fruit abundant, and its recompense greater.

    Yet neither is this labor and that the same. For in worldly pursuits are continual perils, and losses one upon another, and the hope uncertain; great is the servility, and the expenditure alike of wealth, and of bodies, and of souls; and then the return of the fruits is far below our expectation, if perchance it should grow up.

    For neither does toil upon worldly matters everywhere bear fruit; nay but even, when it has not failed, but has brought forth its produce even abundantly, short is the time wherein it continues.

    For when you are grown old, and hast no longer after that the feeling of enjoyment in perfection, then and not till then does the labor bear you its recompense. And whereas the labor was with the body in its vigor, the fruit and the enjoyment is with one grown old and languid, when time has dulled even the feeling, although if it had not dulled it, the expectation of the end suffers us not to find pleasure.

    But in the other case not so, but the labor is in corruption and a dying body, but the crown in one incorruptible, and immortal, and having no end. And the labor is both first and short-lived; but the reward both subsequent and endless, that with security you may take your rest after that, looking for nothing unpleasant.

    For neither may thou fear change any more or loss as here. What sort of good things, then, are these, which are both insecure, and short-lived, and earthly, and vanishing before they have appeared, and acquired with many toils? And what good things are equal to those, that are immovable, that grow not old, that have no toil, that even at the time of the conflicts bring you crowns?

    For he that despises money even here already receives his reward, being freed from anxiety, from rivalry, from false accusation, from plotting from envy. He that is temperate, and lives orderly, even before his departure, is crowned and lives in pleasure, being delivered from unseemliness, ridicule, dangers of accusation, and the other things that are to be feared. All the remaining parts of virtue likewise make us a return here already.

    In order therefore that we may attain unto both the present and the future blessings, let us flee from vice and choose virtue. For thus shall we both enjoy delight, and obtain the crowns to come, unto which God grant we may all attain, by the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory and might forever and ever. Amen.

    Source

    There is another commentary by the same author from the perspective of the Gospel of St. John, here.

    St. Cyril also speaks of it in his Commentary on the Gospel of St. Luke, Sermon CXXXII.
  • St. Cyril also speaks of it in his Commentary on the Gospel of St. John:

    [quote author=St. Cyril]
    14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting.

    The Jews are again hereby too convicted of despising the laws given them, and making of no account the Mosaic writings, looking only to their own love of gain. For whereas the law commanded that they who were about to enter into the Divine temple should purify themselves in many ways; those who had the power of forbidding it hindered not the bankers or money-changers, and others besides, whose employment was gain, usury and increase, in their lusts (for the whole aim of merchants is comprised in these things): they |159 hindered them not from defiling the holy court, from entering into it as it were with unwashen feet, yea rather they themselves altogether used to enjoin it, that God might say truly of them, Many pastors have destroyed My vineyard, they have: trodden My portion under foot, they have made My pleasant portion a desolate wilderness, they have made it desolate. For of a truth the Lord's vineyard was destroyed, being taught to trample on the Divine worship itself, and through the sordid love of gain of those set over it left bare to all ignorance.

    15 And when He had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them all out of the temple.

    Reasonably is the Saviour indignant at the folly of the Jews. For it befitted to make the Divine Temple not an house of merchandise, but an house of prayer: for so it is written. But He shows His emotion not by mere words, but with stripes and a scourge thrusts He them forth of the sacred precincts, justly devising for them the punishment befitting slaves; for they would not receive the Son Who through faith maketh free. See I pray well represented as in a picture that which was said through Paul, If any man dishonour the Temple of God, him shall God dishonour.

    16 Take these things hence; make not My Father's House an house of merchandise.

    He commands as Lord, He leads by the hand to what is fitting, as teacher; and along with the punishment He sets before them the declaration of their offences, through shame thereof not suffering him that is censured to be angry. But it must be noted that He again calls God His own Father specially, as being Himself and that Alone by Nature of Him, and truly Begotten. For if it be not so, but the Word be really Son with us, as one of us, to wit by adoption, and the mere Will of the Father: why does He alone seize to Himself the boast common to and set before all, saying, Make not My Father's House, and not rather, our Father's House. For this I suppose would have been more meet to |160 say, if He had known that Himself too was one of those who are not sons by Nature. But since the Word knows that He is not in the number of those who are sons by grace, but of the Essence of God the Father, He puts Himself apart from the rest, calling God His Father. For it befits those who are called to sonship and have the honour from without, when they pray to cry, Our Father Which art in Heaven: but the Only Begotten being Alone One of One, with reason calls God His Own Father.

    But if we must, applying ourselves to this passage, harmonize it more spiritually with that above, the lection must be considered differently.

    And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep, &c.

    See again the whole scheme of the Dispensation to usward drawn out by two things. For with the Cananites, I mean those of Galilee, Christ both feasts and tarries, and them that bade Him, and hereby honoured Him, He made partakers of His Table; He both aids them by miracles and fills up that which was lacking to their joy (and what good thing does He not freely give?): teaching as in a type that He will both receive the inhabitants of Galilee, that is the Gentiles, called as it were to them through the faith that is in them, and will bring them into the Heavenly Bridal-chamber, that is unto the church of the first-born, and will make them sit down with the saints (for the holy disciples sat down with the feasters): and will make them partake of the Divine and spiritual feast, as Himself saith, Many shall come from the east and west and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of Heaven, nought lacking unto their joy. For everlasting joy shall be upon their heads. But the disobedient Jews He shall cast forth of the holy places, and set them without the holy inclosure of the saints; yea, even when they bring sacrifices He will not receive them: but rather will subject them to chastisement and the scourge, holden with the cords of their own sins. For hear Him saying, Take these things hence; that thou mayest understand again those things which long ago by |161 the mouth of the Prophet Isaiah He saith, I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts, and I delight not in the blood of bullocks and of he goats, neither come ye to appear before Me, for who hath required this at your hand? tread not My courts any more. If ye bring an offering of fine flour, vain is the oblation, incense is an abomination unto Me; your new moons and sabbaths and great day I cannot endure, your fasting and rest and feasts My soul hateth: ye are become satiety unto Me, I will no longer endure your sins. This He most excellently signifies in type, devising for them the scourge of cords. For scourges are a token of punishment.

    17  And His disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of Thine House hath eaten Me up.

    The disciples in a short time get perfection of knowledge, and comparing what is written with the events, already shew great progress for the better.

    18  What sign shewest Thou unto us, seeing that Thou doest these things?

    The multitude of the Jews are startled at the unwonted authority, and they who are over the temple are extremely vexed, deprived of their not easily counted gains. And they cannot convict Him of not having spoken most rightly in commanding them not to exhibit the Divine Temple as a house of merchandise. But they devise delays to the flight of the merchants, excusing themselves that they ought not to submit to Him off-hand, nor without investigation to receive as Son of God Him Who was witnessed to by no sign.

    19 Destroy this temple.

    To them who of good purpose ask for good things, God very readily granteth them: but to them who come to Him, tempting Him, not only does He deny their ambition in respect of what they ask, but also charges them with wickedness. Thus the Pharisees demanding a sign in other parts of |162 the Gospels the Saviour convicted saying, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. What therefore He said to those, this to these too with slight change: for these (as did those) ask, tempting Him. Nor to those who were in such a state of mind would even this sign have been given, but that it was altogether needful for the salvation of us all.

    But we must know that they made this the excuse of their accusation against Him, saying falsely before Pontius Pilate, what they had not heard. For, say they, This Man saith, I am able to destroy the Temple of God. Wherefore of them too did Christ speak in the prophets, False witnesses did rise up: they laid to My charge things that I knew not: and again, For false witnesses are risen up against Me, and such as breathe out cruelty. But He does not urge them to bloodshed saying, Destroy this Temple, but since He knew that they would straightway do it, He indicates expressively what is about to happen.

    20 Forty and six years was this Temple in building, and wilt Thou rear it up in three days?

    They mock at the sign, not understanding the depth of the Mystery, but seize on the disease of their own ignorance, as a reasonable excuse for not obeying Him, and considering the difficulty of the thing, they gave heed rather as to one speaking at random, than to one who was promising ought possible to be fulfilled, that that may be shewn to be true that was written of them, Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not, and ever bow Thou down their backs: in order that in a manner ever stooping downwards and inclining to the things alone of the earth, they may receive no sight of the lofty doctrines of piety towards Christ, not as though God Who is loving to man grudged them those things, but rather with even justice was punishing them that committed intolerable transgressions. |163

    For see how foolishly they insult Him, not sparing their own souls. For our Lord Jesus Christ calls God His Father, saying, Make not My Father's House an House of merchandise. Therefore when they ought now to deem of Him as Son and God, as shining forth from God the Father, they believe Him to be yet bare man and one of us. Therefore they object the time that has been spent in the building of the Temple, saying, Forty and six years was this Temple in building, and wilt Thou rear it up in three days? O drunken with all folly, rightly, I deem, one might say to you, if a wise soul had been implanted in you, if ye believe that your Temple is the House of God, how ought ye not to have held Him to be God by Nature, Who dares fearlessly tell you, Make not My Father's House an House of merchandise? How then, tell me, should He have need of a long time for the building of one house? or how should He be powerless for anything whatever, who in days only seven in number, fashioned this whole universe with ineffable Power, and has His Power in only willing? For these things the people skilled in the sacred writings ought to have considered.

    21, 22 But He spake of the Temple of His Body. When therefore He was risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this unto them: and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

    Acceptable to the wise man is the word of wisdom, and the knowledge of discipline abideth more easily with men of understanding, and as in wax not too hard, the impression of seals is well made, so in the more tender hearts of men the Divine Word is readily infixed: wherefore the hard of heart is also called wicked. The disciples then, being of a good disposition, become wise, and ruminate the words of divine Scripture, nourishing themselves to more accurate knowledge, and thence coming firmly to belief. Since the Body of Christ is called a temple also, how is not the Only-Begotten Word Which indwelleth therein, God by Nature, since he that is not God cannot be said to dwell in a |164 Temple? Or let one come forward and say, what saint's body was ever called a temple; but I do not suppose any one can shew this. I say then, what we shall find to be true, if we accurately search the Divine Scripture, that to none of the Saints was such honour attached. And indeed the blessed Baptist, albeit he attained unto the height of all virtue, and suffered none to exceed him in piety, was through the madness of Herod beheaded, and yet is no such thing attributed to him. On the contrary, the Evangelist devised a grosser word for his remains, saying this too, as appears to me by an oeconomy, in order that the dignity may be reserved to Christ Alone. For he writes thus; And the blood-shedder to wit, Herod, sent and beheaded John in the prison, and his disciples came and took up his carcase 6. If the body of John be called a carcase, whose temple will it be? In another sense indeed, we are called temples of God, by reason of the Holy Ghost indwelling in us. For we are called the temples of God, and not of ourselves.

    But haply some one will say: How then, tell me, doth the Saviour Himself call His own Body a carcase, For wheresoever He saith the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. To this we say, that Christ saith this not of His Own Body, but in manner and guise of a parable He signifieth that concourse of the Saints to Him, that shall be at that time when He appeareth again to us, with the holy angels, in the glory of His Father. For like as, saith He, flocks of carnivorous birds rush down with a sharp whizzing to fallen carcases, so shall ye too be gathered together to Me. Which indeed Paul too doth make known to us, saying, For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible; And again in another place, and we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. That therefore which is taken by way of similitude for an image will no wise damage the force of the truth. |165
  • Dear all,

    We all ought to unite in Christ's love and forgive instead of divide. Whatever our differences are: no one can be 100% right or wrong, we're humans. Let us pray and if you can participate in any useful action these days by all means please do, it's very important. Try to be well informed and up to date. Faith without works is dead.

    GBU
  • I wrote a piece on the unfortunate events in Egypt in my university's newspaper, the Daily Bruin. You can read it here.

    Disclaimer: You might not agree/like what I had to say. You may think that I should have said (X) instead of (Y), etc. These are just my own thoughts and I do not claim to be speaking on behalf of all Copts.

    Thanks.
  • Its all good Ophadeece. Sometimes these conversations get heated and we say things we with we didnt lol. Im still reading the commentaries, thanks for putting them up. Long, but good, so when Im done reading ill be back on. Thanks for them guys.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12453.msg146157#msg146157 date=1318701676]
    I wrote a piece on the unfortunate events in Egypt in my university's newspaper, the Daily Bruin. You can read it here.

    Disclaimer: You might not agree/like what I had to say. You may think that I should have said (X) instead of (Y), etc. These are just my own thoughts and I do not claim to be speaking on behalf of all Copts.

    Thanks.


    Nice piece, thanks for sharing.

    So who is to blame for the this latest incident?  The power vaccum in the government is creating fertile ground for lawlessness and insecurity. Iraq is a perfect example; after the removal of Saddam ,the marauding invaders failed to maintain law and order. It appears the military government of Tantawi is deliberately fomenting hostility to derail the upcoming parliamentary elections to prolong its  grip on power. Mubarak was'nt better either. The bombing of the Saints church On New Year's Eve happened under his watch. Whenever these corrupted politicians are in trouble, they always seek to instigate and foster sectarian strife to deflect attention from any moves towards political reform , democratic change or other pressing issues.

    May God intervene and have mercy on us!
  • Dear returnorthodoxy,
    I'm glad you forgive me.. thanks bro
    Dear Unworthy1,
    Nice article.. I liked it
    Dear Hezekiel,
    Where have you been.. I needed your backing for some time man..hehe
    Oujai
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