Concerned Copts

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  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145432#msg145432 date=1317435296]
    Imikhail, get an education buddy.

    Copticyouth,
    If you have a comment about imikhail's post, address it. Don't attack him or his education. Attack the comments if you wish, not the commenters.
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145432#msg145432 date=1317435296]
    Imikhail, the claims in your last post have no basis in reality, and are insulting. Please educate yourself on this issue before making baseless assertions, unless of course you are able to justify your claims.

    Cy



    Anyone who commits suicide would "rest" in hell. Samson did not commit suicide .. he asked God for a final chance and God answered his request.


    Sin is a sin is a sin. Homosexuality is a sin. Anyone who claims to be a homosexual is a sinner and needs to repent to receive forgiveness.

    Homosexuals are banned from the heavenly kingdom, so those who claim themselves to be homosexuals need to think of how they need to change their lives to be suitable for the eternal life.
  • A final chance? A what?

    First of all, all that I'm arguing is that you could not possibly know if someone is in hell for suicide. How do you know that god didn't also allow or condone this act of suicide, or other suicides? You don't. Whats more if god would allow someone to murder and take his own life without condemnation I'm pretty sure He could allow someone who is homosexual to take his life without condemning them to eternal punishment.

    And lets not forget we're talking about someone who is essentially a child who most probably hasn't engaged in sexual activity and for all we know has only been accused of being gay.


    Second of all repeating that homosexuality is a sin does not make your last post any less insulting or inaccurate. 

    Cy
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145439#msg145439 date=1317449670]
    A final chance? A what?


    I am assuming that you are using the Bible as the reference for Samson's story. So, let's see what the Bible says about the story of Samson:

    " And she said, "The Philistines are upon you, Samson!" So he awoke from his sleep, and said, "I will go out as before, at other times, and shake myself free!" But he did not know that the Lord had departed from him" Judges 16:20

    You see, God abandoned Saul. He was captured, mocked and became a slave for the Philistines.


    The Bible continues:

    Then Samson called to the Lord, saying, "O Lord God, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, just this once, O God, that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes!" Judges 16:28

    Here Samson prayed that the Lord may give him back his strength and the rank of being a judge again to save the Lord's people from the Philistines.

    The story continues:

    Then Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Judges 16:30

    This is not a suicide as you picture it but a prayer that the Lord answered. God gave Samson his strength back to judge the Philistines and save His people. He allowed Samson to die.


  • First of all, all that I'm arguing is that you could not possibly know if someone is in hell for suicide. How do you know that god didn't also allow or condone this act of suicide, or other suicides?

    God will never allow someone to tarnish His gift without punishment. Life is a gift from God and the one who destroys the gift God shall destroy him/her.

    Now, there are mentally ill people who may have committed suicide. This is not what I am referring to here.

    Whats more if god would allow someone to murder and take his own life without condemnation I'm pretty sure He could allow someone who is homosexual to take his life without condemning them to eternal punishment.

    Are you the new God's assistant .. Are you rewriting the Bible?

    Homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom. Being a homosexual is acknowledging the sin, living in a state of sin, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and thus would not be fit for eternal life.

    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10

    Second of all repeating that homosexuality is a sin does not make your last post any less insulting or inaccurate. 

    How is what the Bible says different from what I said earlier. Are you suggesting that the word of God is insulting to you? Are you above the word of God?

    You shall submit to the word of God whether you like it or not. You will be judged according to the commandments contained in it whether you realize it or not.
  • If the definition of suicide is the intention of taking one's own life, then Samson committed suicide. The only difference is god 'allowed' it, in which case I refer you to my previous post.

    Cy
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145442#msg145442 date=1317452961]
    If the definition of suicide is the intention of taking one's own life, then Samson committed suicide. The only difference is god 'allowed' it, in which case I refer you to my previous post.

    Cy


    No, you are wrong. You are missing the point. The words "Let me die with the Philistines" is a prayer not a wish to kill himself. Samson was sent to save God's people and he prayed that he would die in the process.

    You are assuming that because he destroyed the structure he was in that he committed suicide. This is not the case.
  • Its a plea to end his life. Call it a prayer, a wish, what ever you like..
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145444#msg145444 date=1317453956]
    Its a plea to end his life. Call it a prayer, a wish, what ever you like..


    By your logic, our Lord's death was a suicide. Nonsense.

    Samson, like Christ, gave up himself as a sacrifice to save God's people.

    You need to read the Fathers commentary to understand that Samson's death was a type of Christ's death on the Cross.

    I have the commentary in Arabic that I can post for you.
  • Yes Jesus committed suicide. Any person who intentionally takes their lives for whatever reason has committed suicide. The stigma or association of suicide is what impedes you from acknowledging this.

    I appreciate your efforts but I don't read arabic.


    ...We digress. What I'm arguing is that neither of you can say with certainty that this child is in hell. You don't know if this kid suffered from a mental illness, and you don't know if this kid was actually homosexual or if he was only being accused of being one. And you certainly don't know the heart of this individual.


    Cy


  • Yes Jesus committed suicide.

    If you truly believe this ......... then there is no point of debating with you anything as you obviously do not understand Christianity and the dogma of Salvation that is the center of the Church's faith.

    Good luck with your homosexuality and may the Lord have mercy on your soul.
  • Copticyouth,
    I get the feeling you're not Christian, I may be wrong, so let me know. I see you coming and arguing about such a topic only from some a scholarly faithless position. I really question your motives. For someone to keep referring to God with a small g and to say Jesus committed suicide tells me so much... I think you were given this advice before, and I'm gonna repeat it; this is a Christian forum, so you may go argue the case in other forums away from here. Christian people know it by heart: homosexuality is a sin...
    Oujai
  • Actually I could be wrong  .."if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me..." Again this is irrelevant to the bigger point being made here so i'll repost:

    Neither of you can say with certainty that this child is in hell. You don't know if this kid suffered from a mental illness, and you don't know if this kid was actually homosexual or if he was only being accused of being one. And you certainly don't know the heart of this individual.

    Cy
  • Ophadece,

                  Impugning someone's motives because they spell god with a small g?  Really? Could you explain your reasoning?

    Oh and Btw i've I changed my opinion on Jesus killing himself see previous post ;)

    Cy
  • Dear Copticyouth86,

    If you claim yourself to be a homosexual you are unrighteous, living in a state of sin, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and you will be thrown into hell.

    Of course if you are not Christian, disregard the above but be very weary of your eternal salvation.

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10

    My intention is to awake you not to insult you.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg145456#msg145456 date=1317456529]
    Dear Copticyouth86,

    If you claim yourself to be a homosexual you are unrighteous, living in a state of sin, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and you will be thrown into hell.

    Of course if you are not Christian, disregard the above but be very weary of your eternal salvation.

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites" 1 Corinthians 6:9

    My intention is to awake you not to insult you.


    Ok this is getting stupid. If you want to have a chat to me my personal beliefs or if you want to proselytise to me, then send me a message. This thread is about issues pertaining to homosexuality not "awakening" CY86 (which btw doesn't work with the threat of eternal torment)

    Thanks,

    Cy
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145457#msg145457 date=1317457263]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg145456#msg145456 date=1317456529]
    Dear Copticyouth86,

    If you claim yourself to be a homosexual you are unrighteous, living in a state of sin, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and you will be thrown into hell.

    Of course if you are not Christian, disregard the above but be very weary of your eternal salvation.

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites" 1 Corinthians 6:9

    My intention is to awake you not to insult you.


    Ok this is getting stupid. If you want to have a chat to me my personal beliefs or if you want to proselytise to me, then send me a message. This thread is about issues pertaining to homosexuality not "awakening" CY86 (which btw doesn't work with the threat of eternal torment)

    Thanks,

    Cy


    May be stupid to you.

    To me salvation is a serious matter.

    If you are a homosexual, you need to repent to inherit the kingdom of God.

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10
  • Whats stupid Imikhail is people trying to find out what I personally believe and people trying to preach to me in a public thread that is based on a completely different topic. Do it in a message. I'd be happy to have a friendly conversation about my position with you. But again,  if you're going to quote a biblical passage about my eternal salvation being on the line and that homosexuality is a sin then don't bother. Because I have a bible and I can look those things up myself.

    Thanks,

    Cy
  • DEar Copticyouth,
    How would you want me to reply? I am impressed by your next to last post...
    Oujai
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145459#msg145459 date=1317458042]
    Whats stupid Imikhail is people trying to find out what I personally believe and people trying to preach to me in a public thread that is based on a completely different topic.


    This knowledge of your beliefs is not important to me. What is important is that you know what the Bible says regarding a topic you have raised.

    Do it in a message. I'd be happy to have a friendly conversation about my position with you.

    Again, I do not care of your position as much as I care about where you are in terms of the Bible and the Church's teachings.


    But again,  if you're going to quote a biblical passage about my eternal salvation being on the line and that homosexuality is a sin then don't bother. Because I have a bible and I can look those things up myself.

    You claim you have a Bible  ... Satan knows it by heart. What is important is whether you follow the Bible


    Here is the verse again:

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10


  • ??? Again,  if you want to know where i stand regarding the bible (i.e. my position) and information regarding my knowledge of the bible and teachings of christianity, you can pm me.

    And for the record Im not satan, because for the most part i don't know the bible by heart.

    Cy
  • [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145464#msg145464 date=1317464369]
    ??? Again,  if you want to know where i stand regarding the bible (i.e. my position) and information regarding my knowledge of the bible and teachings of christianity, you can pm me.


    From the answers and opinions you gave on this thread, I already know your knowledge of the Bible. So, I do not need to pm you on that.



    And for the record Im not satan, because for the most part i don't know the bible by heart.

    I did not say you are Satan.

    You said you have a Bible and can look up verses. In response, I said it is not enough to do that for Satan does know the Bible by heart. What is important is to understand and apply what you read. Reading the verses will not save you. What will save you is understanding what you read, apply what you read and live what you read.

    The Bible is very clear on homosexuals being thrown out in eternal fire. This is what you need to know, understand, apply and live by. Here is the verse again

    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10

  • copticyouth86,

    We desire your salvation. The people on this forum have tried desperately to change your mind about this topic with very credible evidence. They have offered you verses from the Holy Bible, facts, historical evidence, and personal prayers.

    You do not want to change because you choose not to.

    This is your choice. And you are entitled to it. But be aware that the view which you choose to espouse goes against the 2,000 year history and practice of the Holy Orthodox Church, the one which Christ Himself created with His pierced hands. If you wish to compromise Christ and His Church, God Himself gives you the freedom to do so.

    But remember that Adam and Eve also had freedom, and there are consequences to every choice we make.

    If you choose this path, we will gravely mourn for you. It is very possible that God is leading you here to speak with us so that you may change.

    Don't smack God's hand away. Don't resist your Holy Spirit.

    And if you still wish to be this way, we will continue to pray for you.

    But at least we tried...

    +++
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    12 pages of nonsense. If this thread is evidence of anything, it's that one cannot have a proper discussion about ANYTHING on the internet.

    copticyouth86,

    If you wish to have a dialogue, do not do it on an internet forum. It's a waste of time and effort on your part. You're going to hear the same tired, judgmental bs over and over and over. Real dialogue can only occur with intelligent, open-minded, well-versed people face to face. On the internet, everyone is an 'expert' something (be it a theologian, psychiatrist, anthropologist, sociologist etc.). Don't waste your time and seek out guidance/dialogue elsewhere.
  • Well said Cephas...Main reason I have left all forums...constant bickering and going in circles over and over again. Its like playing a broken record over and over again but with a horrible track playing.
  • "I did not say you are Satan. "

    I know, I was kidding.


    Κηφᾶς & jydeacon,

              Well so far this has been my experience, I have been hoping that people would begin to speak with a little more intelligence and open mindedness or at least with some critical thinking, as its been demonstrated that some facts of what we call reality contradict the beliefs of some people on this forum. You'd think that would be enough to jolt them into an intelligent conversation, or a useful, non circular one at least.

    Maybe it will happen one day. But I'm going to leave this thread. Mental health is the next issue on the 'agenda' of Concerned Copts, and I think it goes hand in hand with some of the themes that have been brought up in this thread e.g. mental illness and suicide.

    The next episode will touch on the taboo of seeing a counsellor/therapist as well as depression anxiety and panic attacks. So stay tuned!

    Cy
  • Well, that's a nice ending Lol. CY86, I  think that such a topic is a good topic, and I would be very happy to listen in. I hope that we can respectfully have our opinions. I respect you as a person, and I hope that we can look over our arguments in love.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145490#msg145490 date=1317508870]
              Well so far this has been my experience, I have been hoping that people would begin to speak with a little more intelligence and open mindedness or at least with some critical thinking, as its been demonstrated that some facts of what we call reality contradict the beliefs of some people on this forum. You'd think that would be enough to jolt them into an intelligent conversation, or a useful, non circular one at least.

    Wishful thinking, especially on this particular forum. Everyone here knows how to blindly proof-text, but when it comes to actually thinking about anything in a critical fashion, well, that won't happen. They can proof-text anything and yet overlook Christ's greatest commandment which is to Love. 'Love covers a multitude of sins' [1Peter 4:8]. People here seem to forget that. They seem to forget that Christ Himself never attacked sinners whether they came to Him or whether He sought them. He only ever attacked the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees, who felt they were without sin and followed the Law. 

    [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145490#msg145490 date=1317508870]
    Maybe it will happen one day.

    On this forum, I wouldn't hold my breathe.

    As for your podcast, I have a few recommendations. I listened to your first one, and I can tell that you all  haven't done this before. I would recommend that you increase the number of participants to get a greater dialogue going. I would also recommend that you find, at the very least, one (though two or three would be better) individuals who are more spiritually mature, who have a solid foundation in the Church's teachings (not just those who can regurgitate Bible verses, but who actually know the teachings of the Church Fathers as well) but who are also open-minded and well read on scholarly articles in the subjects you wish to discuss. It seems that you do seek the Church's perspective on these issues, and as such, you need individuals who can accurately present it for proper dialogue.
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12337.msg145497#msg145497 date=1317531842]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145490#msg145490 date=1317508870]
              Well so far this has been my experience, I have been hoping that people would begin to speak with a little more intelligence and open mindedness or at least with some critical thinking, as its been demonstrated that some facts of what we call reality contradict the beliefs of some people on this forum. You'd think that would be enough to jolt them into an intelligent conversation, or a useful, non circular one at least.

    Wishful thinking, especially on this particular forum. Everyone here knows how to blindly proof-text, but when it comes to actually thinking about anything in a critical fashion, well, that won't happen. They can proof-text anything and yet overlook Christ's greatest commandment which is to Love. 'Love covers a multitude of sins' [1Peter 4:8]. People here seem to forget that. They seem to forget that Christ Himself never attacked sinners whether they came to Him or whether He sought them. He only ever attacked the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees, who felt they were without sin and followed the Law. 

    [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145490#msg145490 date=1317508870]
    Maybe it will happen one day.

    On this forum, I wouldn't hold my breathe.

    As for your podcast, I have a few recommendations. I listened to your first one, and I can tell that you all  haven't done this before. I would recommend that you increase the number of participants to get a greater dialogue going. I would also recommend that you find, at the very least, one (though two or three would be better) individuals who are more spiritually mature, who have a solid foundation in the Church's teachings (not just those who can regurgitate Bible verses, but who actually know the teachings of the Church Fathers as well) but who are also open-minded and well read on scholarly articles in the subjects you wish to discuss. It seems that you do seek the Church's perspective on these issues, and as such, you need individuals who can accurately present it for proper dialogue.
    (emphasis mine)

    Really, Cephas? I don't know how you come to that conclusion. . .
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12337.msg145497#msg145497 date=1317531842]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg145490#msg145490 date=1317508870]
              Well so far this has been my experience, I have been hoping that people would begin to speak with a little more intelligence and open mindedness or at least with some critical thinking, as its been demonstrated that some facts of what we call reality contradict the beliefs of some people on this forum. You'd think that would be enough to jolt them into an intelligent conversation, or a useful, non circular one at least.

    Wishful thinking, especially on this particular forum. Everyone here knows how to blindly proof-text, but when it comes to actually thinking about anything in a critical fashion, well, that won't happen. They can proof-text anything and yet overlook Christ's greatest commandment which is to Love. 'Love covers a multitude of sins' [1Peter 4:8]. People here seem to forget that. They seem to forget that Christ Himself never attacked sinners whether they came to Him or whether He sought them. He only ever attacked the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees, who felt they were without sin and followed the Law. 


    Jesus also attacked EVERYONE who does not listen to the teachings of the Church:

    "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 'The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.  But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city."  Luke 10:10 - 12
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