Shenouti OR Shenouda

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?
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  • In Coptic Shenouda is Shenouti.
  • [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11828.msg141181#msg141181 date=1310351300]
    Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?

    whatever your heart desires......
    i was always taught to say the name he was ordained with.....which is "Shenouda".....instead of spelling out the word. same calling some bishops with their ordination name instead of changing the name between languages.
  • [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11828.msg141181#msg141181 date=1310351300]
    Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?



    Go with the Coptic "Shenouti." He may have been ordained "Shenouda" as some say but I'm pretty sure the ordination was done in Arabic, not Coptic. That's why he was called "Shenouda."
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141186#msg141186 date=1310354311]
    [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11828.msg141181#msg141181 date=1310351300]
    Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?

    Go with the Coptic "Shenouti." He may have been ordained "Shenouda" as some say but I'm pretty sure the ordination was done in Arabic, not Coptic. That's why he was called "Shenouda."

    So Anba Boula of Tanta should be called "Avva Pavle" when we say his hetinni in ekesmaroot?!
    Anba Kerrelos of Nag3 hamadi was in our church a couple of weeks ago.....prayed in the english liturgy....should i have said "our father the Bishop Abba Cyril"?!
  • I think I remember discussing with someone how we should chant His Holiness' name and he said that Pope Shenouda preferred Shenouda. Not sure if that is accurate though.

    In the end, we are making much ado about practically nothing. Whatever the acolytes decide on should suffice. The clergy really do not mind.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11828.msg141188#msg141188 date=1310355706]
    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141186#msg141186 date=1310354311]
    [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11828.msg141181#msg141181 date=1310351300]
    Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?

    Go with the Coptic "Shenouti." He may have been ordained "Shenouda" as some say but I'm pretty sure the ordination was done in Arabic, not Coptic. That's why he was called "Shenouda."

    So Anba Boula of Tanta should be called "Avva Pavle" when we say his hetinni in ekesmaroot?!
    Anba Kerrelos of Nag3 hamadi was in our church a couple of weeks ago.....prayed in the english liturgy....should i have said "our father the Bishop Abba Cyril"?!


    Yes to all.

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11828.msg141196#msg141196 date=1310358415]
    I think I remember discussing with someone how we should chant His Holiness' name and he said that Pope Shenouda preferred Shenouda. Not sure if that is accurate though.

    In the end, we are making much ado about practically nothing. Whatever the acolytes decide on should suffice. The clergy really do not mind.


    I wouldn't believe that because, and forgive me for this, people say a lot of things these concerning the pope and/or bishops.
  • Honestly, it's not such a big deal as long as the deacons have agreed upon which one they will say.
  • If you ask Ibrahim Ayad himself he'll tell you he doesn't know Coptic that fluently. In fact, he recorded the hedans with the HICS saying Shenouda, but as Mina once told us he has been urged to advance the Greco-Bohairic more and more and therefore he nowadays says Shenouti. Coptic is Shenouda. IT is not an Arabic name, or has a different pronunciation in Arabic.
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11828.msg141204#msg141204 date=1310364437]
    If you ask Ibrahim Ayad himself he'll tell you he doesn't know Coptic that fluently. In fact, he recorded the hedans with the HICS saying Shenouda, but as Mina once told us he has been urged to advance the Greco-Bohairic more and more and therefore he nowadays says Shenouti. Coptic is Shenouda. IT is not an Arabic name, or has a different pronunciation in Arabic.
    Oujai



    Dear ophadece,

    First, I think CIA would tell you that he doesn't know Coptic that fluently out of humility, not out of him really not knowing Coptic.

    Second, although I respect HICS and I do learn from them, I do think they are an old recording with the old uncorrected version of the Coptic pronunciation. I don't need that "Greco-Boharic" vs. "Boharic" argument of how to pronounce the words. If you use that argument, then there is no use to have a table of the Coptic letters and their proununciation since there are different ways to pronounce a word that are contradictory.

    Third, how do you know that he has been urged to advance the Greco-Bohairic more and more and therefore he nowadays says Shenouti"?

    Another thing, if "Coptic is Shenouda," then why do we say St. Shenouda the Archmandrite's name in Coptic as "Shenouti Pirachi Menedritis" in anything (e.g. hetennis, the sermon in pascha "Okati Khesis")?

    Thank you.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11828.msg141204#msg141204 date=1310364437]
    If you ask Ibrahim Ayad himself he'll tell you he doesn't know Coptic that fluently. In fact, he recorded the hedans with the HICS saying Shenouda, but as Mina once told us he has been urged to advance the Greco-Bohairic more and more and therefore he nowadays says Shenouti. Coptic is Shenouda. IT is not an Arabic name, or has a different pronunciation in Arabic.
    Oujai


    may i add he said "shenoude" many times to in older recordings.

    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141202#msg141202 date=1310362654]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11828.msg141188#msg141188 date=1310355706]
    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141186#msg141186 date=1310354311]
    [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11828.msg141181#msg141181 date=1310351300]
    Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?

    Go with the Coptic "Shenouti." He may have been ordained "Shenouda" as some say but I'm pretty sure the ordination was done in Arabic, not Coptic. That's why he was called "Shenouda."

    So Anba Boula of Tanta should be called "Avva Pavle" when we say his hetinni in ekesmaroot?!
    Anba Kerrelos of Nag3 hamadi was in our church a couple of weeks ago.....prayed in the english liturgy....should i have said "our father the Bishop Abba Cyril"?!


    Yes to all.
    wow....ok....the next step is to go and confirm with those specific bishops.

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11828.msg141196#msg141196 date=1310358415]
    I think I remember discussing with someone how we should chant His Holiness' name and he said that Pope Shenouda preferred Shenouda. Not sure if that is accurate though.

    I wouldn't believe that because, and forgive me for this, people say a lot of things these concerning the pope and/or bishops.

    for as much as i agree with your statement kmeka, what Unworthy said is right. i was there in the Makkar in Ceder grove in NJ when the pope stopped the deacons from saying "erves" instead if "erevsee".......those same people, that i trust, were also told to say shenouda and not shenouti by the pope himself. it did take a WHILE for Ibrahim Ayad to get the pope's permission.....but he eventually did.
  • Another thing, if "Coptic is Shenouda," then why do we say St. Shenouda the Archmandrite's name in Coptic as "Shenouti Pirachi Menedritis" in anything (e.g. hetennis, the sermon in pascha "Okati Khesis")?

    Perhaps because Saint Shenouti the Archimandrite is a saint from Upper Egypt, where Sahidic is spoken. And in the Sahidic dialect, you pronounce it as Shenouti, and not as Shenouda.
  • with the Coptic "Shenouti." He may have been ordained "Shenouda" as some say but I'm pretty sure the ordination was done in Arabic, not Coptic. That's why he was called "Shenouda."

    The name Shenouda is a composite name of two syllables sha and nouda. The syllable nouda means God in sahidic Coptic. In Bohairic it is noudi.

    When Aryan Moftah changed the the Coptic sounds, the letter "dee" (the last letter in the alphabet) became only ti. So, this has nothing to do with Arabic.

    Shanoudi or Shanouda are both acceptable. However, I would call the Pope by the name of his ordination "Shanouda"

  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11828.msg141216#msg141216 date=1310383805]
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11828.msg141204#msg141204 date=1310364437]
    If you ask Ibrahim Ayad himself he'll tell you he doesn't know Coptic that fluently. In fact, he recorded the hedans with the HICS saying Shenouda, but as Mina once told us he has been urged to advance the Greco-Bohairic more and more and therefore he nowadays says Shenouti. Coptic is Shenouda. IT is not an Arabic name, or has a different pronunciation in Arabic.
    Oujai


    may i add he said "shenoude" many times to in older recordings.

    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141202#msg141202 date=1310362654]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11828.msg141188#msg141188 date=1310355706]
    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141186#msg141186 date=1310354311]
    [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11828.msg141181#msg141181 date=1310351300]
    Its very confusing when one of our most reliable source Ibrahim Ayad says Shenouti and others says Shenouda. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? And which one is correct?

    Go with the Coptic "Shenouti." He may have been ordained "Shenouda" as some say but I'm pretty sure the ordination was done in Arabic, not Coptic. That's why he was called "Shenouda."

    So Anba Boula of Tanta should be called "Avva Pavle" when we say his hetinni in ekesmaroot?!
    Anba Kerrelos of Nag3 hamadi was in our church a couple of weeks ago.....prayed in the english liturgy....should i have said "our father the Bishop Abba Cyril"?!


    Yes to all.
    wow....ok....the next step is to go and confirm with those specific bishops.

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11828.msg141196#msg141196 date=1310358415]
    I think I remember discussing with someone how we should chant His Holiness' name and he said that Pope Shenouda preferred Shenouda. Not sure if that is accurate though.

    I wouldn't believe that because, and forgive me for this, people say a lot of things these concerning the pope and/or bishops.

    for as much as i agree with your statement kmeka, what Unworthy said is right. i was there in the Makkar in Ceder grove in NJ when the pope stopped the deacons from saying "erves" instead if "erevsee".......those same people, that i trust, were also told to say shenouda and not shenouti by the pope himself. it did take a WHILE for Ibrahim Ayad to get the pope's permission.....but he eventually did.


    Do you have a video or anything of the like to show and prove that?

    And it's not about getting permission from each bishop, it's about pronouncing the name properly according to the rules of the language.
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141268#msg141268 date=1310432532]
    Do you have a video or anything of the like to show and prove that?

    this happened a long time ago.....i doubt there is a vid.

    And it's not about getting permission from each bishop, it's about pronouncing the name properly according to the rules of the language.

    my name is MINA--to be prounced as MEENA......it is supposed to be written as MENA since it's origin is AMEN.........but if i do that, english speakers will say Mena, e as in main....... but, as this is MY NAME, i CHOOSE for it to be said this way.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11828.msg141270#msg141270 date=1310433080]
    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11828.msg141268#msg141268 date=1310432532]
    Do you have a video or anything of the like to show and prove that?

    this happened a long time ago.....i doubt there is a vid.

    And it's not about getting permission from each bishop, it's about pronouncing the name properly according to the rules of the language.

    my name is MINA--to be prounced as MEENA......it is supposed to be written as MENA since it's origin is AMEN.........but if i do that, english speakers will say Mena, e as in main....... but, as this is MY NAME, i CHOOSE for it to be said this way.


    True, but it depends on which language you are using to pronounce the individual's name and if there are variations to the pronunciation of the name depending on the language. For instance, let's take Bishop Kyrillos as you said, who also prayed the liturgy here in California as well. In the intercessions, I said "Kyrillos" as is pronounced in the intercession quartet of the patriarchs (Abba Kyrillos Pistelos Ente Pinahte). In the introduction to the Gospel, I said Cyril in the English. If, for instance, his name was a name that didn't have any variational pronunciation depending on the language, like Athanasius, then you would pronounce his name in the same way as you would the Coptic.
  • you got NOTHING of what i just said.......am i speaking ANOTHER LANGUAGE these days without knowing?!
    feh eh ya nas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11828.msg141283#msg141283 date=1310440534]
    you got NOTHING of what i just said.......am i speaking ANOTHER LANGUAGE these days without knowing?!
    feh eh ya nas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Well, maybe if you start writing grammatically correct sentences, not misspell words, and not respond with something that has NOTHING to do with what previously I said, I would understand you!
  • With all the recent posts on bilingualism and cultural linguistics, I really have to wonder if anybody reads the forums. I repeat again: There is no right or wrong in linguistics. There is no wrong way to say Shenoute or Athanasius. It all depends on the environment or cultural surrounding. There is one way to pronounce the English variants in Egypt, there is another way to pronounce it in America, another way to pronounce it in Britian, another way in Australia. There is one way to say it in Greek, there is another way to say it in Arabic, another way in Coptic, another way Syriac, etc. There is one way to pronounce Shenouti in Modern, currently-used ecclesiastical Bohairic Coptic, another way to pronounce it in 1975 Old Bohairic, and another way to pronounce it pre-1975 Old Bohairic.

    I'll give you 2 examples. In 1975, OHE Burmester wrote in his preface to Koptische Handscriften, a catalogue of manuscripts from the Monastery of St Pishoy, that "Bishoy" prior to the 1930's was always pronounced "Bishay". Here is an example of different pronunciations based on time.

    Another example. Every Copt in the US pronounces "Athanasius" like the Coptic or Arabic /ath a na si us/ (5 syllables). Go to this website and you'll see how the entire non-Coptic world pronounces his name. It is pronounced /ath na shus/ (3 syllables). The same is true with "Maximus and Dometius". Copts pronounce it /max EE mos/ and /do MA di os/ (4 syllables). The non-Coptic world pronounces it /MAXi mus/ and /do ME shus/ (2 1/2 and 3 syllables respectively). These are examples of different pronunciations based on culture.

    So whether you say "Bishoy" or "Bishay", "Athanasius" or "Athnashus", "Domadius" or "Domeshus", "Shenouda" or "Shenoute" or "Shenouti" - IT DOESN'T MATTER. THEY ARE ALL CORRECT depending on social environment.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11828.msg141285#msg141285 date=1310441587]
    So whether you say "Bishoy" or "Bishay", "Athanasius" or "Athnashus", "Domadius" or "Domeshus", "Shenouda" or "Shenoute" or "Shenouti" - IT DOESN'T MATTER. THEY ARE ALL CORRECT depending on social environment.

    i just love you...........
  • Mina, you're making me blush.

    Now can you make sure everyone reads the forums. I getting really tired of repeating the same thing over and over. I'm getting too old to this. It makes me feel like I've reached dementia at 35.
  • Welcome to my life, George.  ;)
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11828.msg141292#msg141292 date=1310443414]
    Now can you make sure everyone reads the forums. I getting really tired of repeating the same thing over and over. I'm getting too old to this. It makes me feel like I've reached dementia at 35.

    you're not the only one....i really think i am speaking in riddles that NO ONE understands anything i am saying. i wonder if my new job is doing this to "me"?!
  • Dear kmeka001,
    You asked three questions after my previous post. Other members replied to two of them already. I would like to answer the third one. You may have forgotten this, or may not even remember that I gave you this comment before, on another thread (can't remember when, or what the thread's title was):- there is no set of pronunciation rules for any live language on earth. This goes for Coptic. The table you are talking about is an invention created by Mr. Moftah to convince people of his argument and change their old style for his new teaching. It is fake, and valueless. As imikhail said /shenouda/ is generally Sa'idic, and /shenoudi/ is generally Bohairic, although "shenoti piarshimanedritis" is totally wrong in my opinion (can't amount to Greek or Coptic). Pretty much like either /aither/ generally in British and Australian vs /i:ther/ in American, as Remenkimi pointed out, although both are used in those three regions anyway...
    Oujai
  • Our Lord Archbishop and Pope of Alexandria has only one proper name:  SHENOUDA.  It is Shenouda in any language including Coptic.  That is the proper name that was given him at ordination.

    A person may have the name John.  It is "John" in all official aspects, whether in Russia(n), South Africa, Egypt, or anywhere.

    Some bishops were ordained with three proper names, such as Bishop David.  At ordination, he was given:  Dawood, Daveed, and David.

    Metropolitan Abraham of Jerusalem, was given Abraham specifically, and not Abraam.

    It has to do with legalities and not linguistics.

    His Holiness cannot sign any documents as "Shenouti" (and never has).  The official Legislative Proclamation of Egypt acknowledges him as:  "Shenouda".  If he were to breech this and use "Shenouti", he would be breaking the law with a false identity.

    Legality, not linguistics.
  • another way to pronounce it in 1975 Old Bohairic, and another way to pronounce it pre-1975 Old Bohairic.


    I am not sure where the 1975 comes from? OB is the authentic form of Bohairic till aryan Motah changed around the year 1858 as a result of the union attempt with the Greek Church in Egypt (The Melekites). You can read about in the manuscript Al Adella Alrabteya.
  • ILSM,

    You are right, legal name is different than linguistic pronunciation. I would quantify your claim by stating, "living" bishops or patriarchs go by the name they were given. Pope Cyril I is never, ever called Kyrillos in any English history account, article, dictionary or encyclopedia. If you look at the list of Coptic Bishops from any English historian, they are always given English names: Athanasius, Cyril, Timothy, John 1-19. In practice, however, many of the patriarchs named Mikhail were called Anba Khael in the History of the Patriarchs. Pope Matthew I was called Anba Matta al Maskeen, not Mattheos.

    Also, we are not talking about Arabic legal documents. We are talking about Coptic liturgical use. When the priest introduces the Gospel and says "Efesmarowt enje vethneyo khen evran emepchois. Kurie evlogison ek to kata Mattheon evangelion to anagnosma", does he ever say "kata Matta evangelion"? No even though both Mattheos and Shenouti are proper names. Now granted this is not a perfect example since we are really talking about our current pope and his name in liturgical use, not the gospel writers. But there is a linguistic component to proper names.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11828.msg141340#msg141340 date=1310485344]
    ILSM,

    You are right, legal name is different than linguistic pronunciation. I would quantify your claim by stating, "living" bishops or patriarchs go by the name they were given. Pope Cyril I is never, ever called Kyrillos in any English history account, article, dictionary or encyclopedia. If you look at the list of Coptic Bishops from any English historian, they are always given English names: Athanasius, Cyril, Timothy, John 1-19. In practice, however, many of the patriarchs named Mikhail were called Anba Khael in the History of the Patriarchs. Pope Matthew I was called Anba Matta al Maskeen, not Mattheos.

    Also, we are not talking about Arabic legal documents. We are talking about Coptic liturgical use. When the priest introduces the Gospel and says "Efesmarowt enje vethneyo khen evran emepchois. Kurie evlogison ek to kata Mattheon evangelion to anagnosma", does he ever say "kata Matta evangelion"? No even though both Mattheos and Shenouti are proper names. Now granted this is not a perfect example since we are really talking about our current pope and his name in liturgical use, not the gospel writers. But there is a linguistic component to proper names.



    The problem I see is that we have little knowledge of our Coptic language and hence the confusion. It seems to me every generation comes of a new way of saying things in Coptic. The reason is that we try to apply "rules" to pronunciation. These rules change every 5 - 10 years or so and the result is this confusion.
  • I believe, HH is quite adamant about SHENOUDA as being the proper relative to him.  He does not stop the Liturgy if someone says Shenouti (inc. CIA) but he has made it abundantly clear that is what he wishes.  In this regard, HH has given latitude such as in the case of Bp. David, but he is quite intentional about Metropolitan Abraham.

    A good deacon follows the rule of his bishop.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11828.msg141341#msg141341 date=1310485818]
    It seems to me every generation comes of a new way of saying things in Coptic. The reason is that we try to apply "rules" to pronunciation. These rules change every 5 - 10 years or so and the result is this confusion.

    Now you know where 1975 comes from. It is Fr Shenouda's thesis. He reconstructed one version of OB. But like you said "every generation comes of a new way to say things in Coptic." But simple reasoning, this means there are other ways to say things in (OB) Coptic that an earlier generation constructed. (Even before Eryan Moftah).
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11828.msg141311#msg141311 date=1310459774]
    Dear kmeka001,
    As imikhail said /shenouda/ is generally Sa'idic, and /shenoudi/ is generally Bohairic, although "shenoti piarshimanedritis" is totally wrong in my opinion (can't amount to Greek or Coptic).

    Disagree. In OB, at least as it is reconstructed today, there is no rule on which "e" vowel is pronounced "a". So both Senou] and Senoute are both pronounced /shanouda/. The lack of a rule is so rampant that certain words become theological heresy. This is the main reason why Erian Moftah changed the rule for Coptic pronunciation. The case in point that Moftah used was Pipneuma e;ouab (which means "Holy Spirit"). In OB, it becomes Babnauma adwab, which is exactly the same way you pronounce Pipneuma a;ouab (which means "the Unclean Spirit")

    But then again. Everything Erian Moftah did was evil and wrong. So forget I mentioned it. >:(
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